[Discussion] Goblins

[AmbivalentDuck]

If you're playing Instigator, it's to cheat Kiki-Jiki into play ASAP and combo out shortly after.  Many of the cards you've chosen to play (aether vial, -2 matron, -2 ringleader, weak tutoring) are in opposition to this goal.

@Sensation Gorger specifically

Kinship - At the beginning of your upkeep, you may look at the top card of your library. If it shares a creature type with Sensation Gorger, you may reveal it. If you do, each player discards his or her hand and draws four cards.

What you're effectively doing is refilling their hand with Hymns and Pox nastiness every other turn.  You invest multiple cards into getting something like Instigator into play and they undo it repeatedly.

I'm not concerned with a bad Pox matchup anymore than I am with a bad Doran the Explorer matchup.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Though you may very well be right, you are also very quick in disregarding the qualities of the list and of the card.

Who said anything about the ability going off only every second turn? When you play it/cheat it into play, it should only be after a recruiter or vampiric tutor, meaning it hits atleast once. Then, as long as you, the goblin player, have superior "mana" and the initiative when attacking with lackeys first and control over your draws, you should either win right there off the kiki-jiki combo or grind the game out over a few turns (let's assume you have a lackey in play, gorger and matron in hand, 2 stable mana sources and a vial with three counters. Doesn't look like a fantastic position to combo out, but you can lackey in a matron, fetch and play recuiter, vial in sensation gorger and win next turn simply by having kiki-jiki, lightning crafter and prospector on top, along with an additional matron to save you if the opponent decides to play engineered plague or something nasty like that). If you manage to set up properly, you could empty your hand every turn until the opponent is dead.

2 ringleader is enough with 6 tutoring goblins. To be honest, I don't see where you're taking that one from.

Cutting matrons for recruiters however is problematic. Those numbers might be best switched around to cater for turn two prowl or ringleader.

The vials are only really good in a few match-ups and I'm not at all sure they belong in the main or in the deck at all. If you have a suggestion for how to beat pox without vials, recruiters and sensation gorgers, I'm all ears.

And please don't give me that old crap about not needing to tune with "bad decks" in mind. I'm fairly certain we both adjust to our metagames, regardless of what is considered the "best decks in vintage". In addition to tezzeret, oath and a bunch of aggro, I want a way to deal with one very solid pox deck, simple as that.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Though you may very well be right, you are also very quick in disregarding the qualities of the list and of the card.

I think this is a clear case of "win cooler" vs "just win."  If you could leyline an arbitrary goblin into play turn 0, I'd argue that the best goblin is always Kiki-Jiki, Earwig Squad, or Siege-Gang Commander.  Pox pretty much folds to both Kiki-Jiki and Siege Gang.  Arguably, Kiki is better since he gives Lackeys haste and lets you sack copies of your dudes instead of actually losing cards you've paid for.  Both lackey and instigator offer you the opportunity to drop a free gob so this isn't "pie in the sky:" pick the most *game-breaking* gob you can.  And if you go the Instigator route, it's arguably so that the first trigger drops a gob who finds the game-breaking gob you actually want.  If that gob is Kiki, you should arguably next find any of the many brutal CIP abilities of the goblin tribe and just win.  You could be copying siege gang, goblin settler, or lightning crafter.

Anyways, you've chosen Instigators...run the full Ringleader and Matron package to ensure that you're dropping something gamebreaking off the second trigger every time.

And please don't give me that old crap about not needing to tune with "bad decks" in mind. I'm fairly certain we both adjust to our metagames, regardless of what is considered the "best decks in vintage". In addition to tezzeret, oath and a bunch of aggro, I want a way to deal with one very solid pox deck, simple as that.

Off hand, the best answer might be running full power + sol ring, crypt, and vault main and Patriarch's Bidding in the sb.  When I say full power, I mean it: you'd run the Timetwister.

If you're starting from my build and naturally I'd argue that you should, cut 2 fanatic, ringleader, and a fetch for Wort #2, Pearl, Sol Ring, and Timetwister.  Cut the Lightning Bolts for Patriarch's Bidding.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Ok. I think you're right on every account. If I can protect a lackey or stingscourger for a turn from pox, by playing a prospector or other 1cc goblin, for instance, It should be possible to overpower him from there. I'll probably put a siege gang in the side in addition to kiki main or something like that. Wastelands are key too, and there will be some room after cutting vials.

I play non-proxy and I'd have to buy chrome moxen and wastes. No budget for power. But thanks for the suggestion anyways.

I guess this is a more sober build. Shallow grave is untested, but I think it looks promising. Tarfires will be cut if I smell that blocking creatures will have bigger butts, but they may very well make it all the way to the tourney. They should be a good substitute for discard with 4 ringleaders against fish. As you can see I'm not currently overly concerned with graveyard strategies, nor artifacts, but that may change. I also like discard over red blasts against blue decks. Do you think I'm off? The manabase could accomodate for REBs easily..

I also wanted to splash green for rancor and tin street, but I don't like the increase in mulligan hands that follow.

Have you considered blood moon/magus to turn on king and manascrew people? If there was a 2-mana moon-like effect, it should be good, but 3cc is a bit heavy lifting.


4 goblin lackey
4 skirk prospector
4 warren instigator
4 goblin matron
1 goblin chieftain
4 goblin ringleader
1 lightning crafter
1 kiki-jiki, mirror breaker
4 earwig squad

3 cabal therapy
2 thoughtseize
1 demonic consultation (rather than vampiric)
3 warren weirding

4 chrome mox
3 simian spirit guide
4 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
4 badlands
1 mountain
1 swamp
1 strip mine
3 wasteland

Sideboard:
3 duress
3 goblin vandal
1 siege-gang commander
2 goblin king
1 stingscourger
2 shallow grave
3 tarfire

[AmbivalentDuck]

I play non-proxy and I'd have to buy chrome moxen and wastes. No budget for power. But thanks for the suggestion anyways.

I'd be happy to discuss this further in a separate thread, but budget goblins belongs in the open forum about as much as budget Tez.  We're competitive because we run so much acceleration and Wastes.

Max and I created a concept deck whose only goal was to combo out as quickly as possible.  It runs no Wastes and relies much less on power.  You could cut the blue for Wheel of Fortune and Blood Moon, replace the power (but definitely not crypt!!!) with Chrome Mox, and build a sideboard nearly identical to ours.  

Tarfire is trash.  It's always worse than Lightning Bolt, Gempalm, or Weirding.  If you were going to run that effect, it would be Dead//Gone.

[RecklessEmbermage]

I play non-proxy and I'd have to buy chrome moxen and wastes. No budget for power. But thanks for the suggestion anyways.

I'd be happy to discuss this further in a separate thread, but budget goblins belongs in the open forum about as much as budget Tez.  We're competitive because we run so much acceleration and Wastes.

Max and I created a concept deck whose only goal was to combo out as quickly as possible.  It runs no Wastes and relies much less on power.  You could cut the blue for Wheel of Fortune and Blood Moon, replace the power (but definitely not crypt!!!) with Chrome Mox, and build a sideboard nearly identical to ours.  

Tarfire is trash.  It's always worse than Lightning Bolt, Gempalm, or Weirding.  If you were going to run that effect, it would be Dead//Gone.

Replacing power with chrome moxen is the main difference between my list and more "competitive" ones (is it necessary to restate that we compete in different environments with different restrictions?). It is a fairly big deal, but I would argue that the deck still function similarly. Comparing your last list with mine, you'll see that you have one more waste and we have the same number of accellerants. Yours do not help much if you want the ability to play a first turn instigator, nor a first turn discard effect plus lackey. I would argue that my list is more fit to prowl turn two than yours, since it accomodates for discard.

Whether tarfire is trash or not depends on the toughness of the opponents creatures. It is obviously good with ringleader and is easier to pay for with my manabase than the cards you list.

I will certainly take a look at your sideboard, to see if there's anything to be learnt from it, but copying a sideboard without regard to ones own metagame is not good advice. Not for me, nor for anybody else reading this thread.

Generally, you have a needlessly condescending tone and I'm getting fed up with it.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I don't particularly care if you find my tone condescending.  Without Lotus and Ruby YOUR DECK IS STRICTLY WORSE than a deck that contains them.  That is the definition of a deck that belongs in the improvement forums.  If you want to discuss a budget build there, I'll be happy to help you.  In particular, I still think you're looking at Kiki-Jiki and his role in Instigator goblins wrong.

[AmbivalentDuck]

A RB gobs list with Instigators and SSGs top8s.

5th Joe Tanner - Goblins

4 Earwig Squad
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Recruiter
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Goblin Warcheif
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Cheiftain
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
6 Mountain

SB:

2 Shattering Spree
2 Goblin Vandal
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Ib Halfheart, GOblin Tactician
2 Warren Weirding
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 Planar Void
4 Leyline Of The Void

List is similar to combo gobs lists already discussed here.  Ib Halfheart is new, but reasonable, tech.  Exclusion of Demonic Consultation is questionable.  Since he lost in the finals to Noble Fish (and our build is 90+% against it...) I'm compelled to comment that he's very reliant on comboing out with little room for aggro or control strategies.  Noble Fish is a nightmare in this context since it has mana denial, combo answers (fow, stp, stifle) and blockers.  I also feel that he'd have a much better game vs Noble Fish with 2+ Wort and at least 1 gempalm between sb and main.  Gempalm has become significantly better recently due to the increased prevalence of Sowers and Welders hiding behind control elements.

I'll also mention that goblins seem to have a VERY disproportionate #present to #top8ed ratio.  I comb through the results threads every week or two to see if any gobs lists were played or top8ed and it seems to be in the top8 80+% of the time that you see it played. The deck is ridiculously underplayed and I have no clue why.  Stigma?

[KoboldsRfun]

Your right that fish is definitely one of my worst match ups with this build along with any very fast combo deck like ad nausem or belcher. I also agree that gempalms are most likely the best card vs fish. If I were to play the deck again I'd put one in main deck and 2 in the sideboard. Demonic Consultation is good in the deck but I chose not to run it because there are already a fair amount of tutor/draw effects in it already and it can randomly cut out a lot of utility from the deck and occasionally lose a game, plus its not a goblin.

There is definitely a stigma that goblins are bad in vintage, which I disagree with. I have made top 8 with my build the last three tournaments I've attended in the past few months, Harrisburg, Richmond, and Baltimore. So the deck definitely has the potential to do well in vintage. Also the list here is missing six mountains I think.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Congratulations on your top8!  You definitely have the best tuned combo-gobs list I've seen.

Demonic Consultation is good in the deck but I chose not to run it because there are already a fair amount of tutor/draw effects in it already and it can randomly cut out a lot of utility from the deck and occasionally lose a game, plus its not a goblin.

Because of your combo focus and number of one-of pieces, you're absolutely right that you could RFG something you need to win.  The question becomes whether or not you should build the deck to be more "tutor-friendly" or not.  And I have no clue.  My "combo" build ran 4 Kiki-Jiki, for example.

There is definitely a stigma that goblins are bad in vintage, which I disagree with. I have made top 8 with my build the last three tournaments I've attended in the past few months, Harrisburg, Richmond, and Baltimore. So the deck definitely has the potential to do well in vintage. Also the list here is missing six mountains I think.

Congratulations again!  Links to those?   People don't seem to get how unprepared the field is for gobs AND how good the deck is.  I guess it's their loss.

As a general observation, I think the better Noble Fish becomes, the worse Instigator becomes.  At the same time, the better Noble Fish become, the better Wort and Gempalm Incinerator become.  Arguing that our build is a natural predator of both stax and fish that can compete with the rest of the meta is a fairly clean reason to choose gobs over other options.

[KoboldsRfun]

Thanks, The Harrisburg and Baltimore top 8's have already been discussed on this thread and this was the closest I could find to a tournament report on the Richmond event.http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39846.0

Also I really don't look at my build as a "combo" deck but more of an aggro deck with a combo in it.  The combo its most often my plan C.  Plan A is resolving an Earwig Squad asap and plucking all there win conditions, which is becoming less likely thanks to the presence of Sadistic Sacrament.  Plan B is just winning off pure aggro which plan A sets up quite nicely.  Depending on the deck I'm up against I can easily shift gears to the combo route if I think its the best path to victory.  Its very easy to switch to the combo route since the two plans parallel each other in that the best creature to fetch up first is Kiki Jiki unless I think I can get the Earwig through early and it will win on its own or buy me enough time to run them over.  Putting the combo in the deck really only takes up one spot which is Lightning Crafter.  I'd run four prospectors anyway since they set up a turn two earwig so nicely.  And I'd always just run one kiki jiki because he is hard to counter since he is rarely hard cast.

As for the noble fish match up I think gobs have better sideboard options than they do given that you set up your board with fish in mind, which as of recently I think there's a lot more fish out there and the match up should take up a good chunk of your sideboard.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Thanks, The Harrisburg and Baltimore top 8's have already been discussed on this thread and this was the closest I could find to a tournament report on the Richmond event.http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39846.0

Thanks!

Its very easy to switch to the combo route since the two plans parallel each other in that the best creature to fetch up first is Kiki Jiki unless I think I can get the Earwig through early and it will win on its own or buy me enough time to run them over.  Putting the combo in the deck really only takes up one spot which is Lightning Crafter.  I'd run four prospectors anyway since they set up a turn two earwig so nicely.  And I'd always just run one kiki jiki because he is hard to counter since he is rarely hard cast.

We're in strong agreement that Kiki is insane in Instigator gobs.  So, why don't you run more than one?  I was actually happy running 4...

As for the noble fish match up I think gobs have better sideboard options than they do given that you set up your board with fish in mind, which as of recently I think there's a lot more fish out there and the match up should take up a good chunk of your sideboard.

I have an easier time with the matchup (Piledrivers, Wort, Weirding main, moxen vs SSG, and blue power).  So, we only put two sideboard slots into it and only because they also address Sower.  I think the real options (for us) are Lightning Bolt  and Gempalm.  You might benefit more from Pyrokinesis and various pieces of legacy tech like Boartusk Liege and Grim Lavamancer.  I found 2x Boartusk Liege to be particularly sick and wrong in my attempt at a combo build with Kiki often copying it to let me attack for the win.

[AmbivalentDuck]

We just got a copy of the "Roblins" build played at ELD's tourneys.

The asked for Roblins list.  It does fluctuate a lot, especially the sideboard.  Feel free to start a separate thread for discussion. 

Maindeck (60):
Spells (41):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
4 Null Rod
4 Earwig Squad
1 Warren Weirding
4 Thoughtseize
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tinstreet hooligan
2 Mogg Fanatic

Lands (19):
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Taiga
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (15):
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Wort, Goblin Auntie
1 Warren Weirding
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Tormod's Crypt

Quick commentary: No other actively maintained, performing list has used Null Rod.  Otherwise, his build is mostly typical of non-instigator gobs.  He replaces my blue power with Thoughtseize, but Time Walk and Thoughtseize fill extremely similar roles even if the card wordings are completely different.   Rods replace our Vandals.  That's pretty cleanly a stax vs combo meta decision.  Gempalms replace our Weirdings, again a meta call.  Ringleaders vs Wort is interesting and a touch questionable given the high concentration of Incinerators and lone Weirding.  I like how the 3/3 body survives sweepers and lets me recur Squad every turn until it sticks.  Strangest inclusion is Warchief over Chieftain: he doesn't appear mana stressed and if he is...how does he intend to drop the 3 cmc lord?  Chieftain is also notably better in multiples.  Sideboard is described as "fluctuating," but I'll briefly mention that Magus dies to the sweepers that people should be boarding in while straight Blood Moon would not.  Jittes are somewhat questionable with 3x Incinerator main, but that's almost entirely a meta call.

Thoughts?  Did I miss anything?

[AmbivalentDuck]

One of Max's friends top8s with a VERY outdated version of our list in Quebec

Martin Bonneville
4 Badland
3 Bloodstained MIre
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothill
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
2 Volcanix Island
1 Mountain
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Vandal
2 Mogg Fanatic
4 Earning Squad
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Worth, Boggart Auntie
1 Time Walk
3 Warren Werding
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor

Sideboard
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Pulverize
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Energy Flux
4 Null Rod
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Maindeck is old (see 3x shusher, 1x wort, fanatics main, no incinerator anywhere, Brainstorm over Vampiric), sideboard is extremely dated.  He top8ed despite it being his first time piloting the deck.

Again, when objectively bad gobs builds top8 pretty much as often as they get played...why aren't people playing this deck?

[pierce]

because people want to WIN tournaments, not merely t8 them.

yes your pet deck project has been a success, and I don't mean to discount that in the slightest. But when was the last time goblins won a tournament?

[AmbivalentDuck]

What % of Tez top8s are 1st place?  I'll bet it's skippy close to 12.5%, ie. 1 in 8.  Show me that the ratio is appreciable off from 12.5% for any deck and I'll cede that your argument has merit.  Otherwise, I'm going to cite low sampling frequency.  Besides, goblins won a 130-ish man tourney in Europe.

Max got matched up against a Tez build (which hasn't been seen anywhere before or after) that has an unusually high win% against us.  I lost to a verbatim copy of a Stax deck I played against in rounds.  Also, I'm 90ish% against Noble Fish, which has been taking up a disproportionate amount of top8 space recently.  Max and I were trying to test out the matchup to find the actual win% and got bored after 10 matches: Noble Fish had only won 2 games: the matchup is actually that lopsided.  If anything gobs probably does better in the top8 than elsewhere due to the Noble Fish concentration.

[pierce]

so the answer is: like a year ago? goblins won a tournament in europe, like a year ago.

why ask why people don't play the deck? it doesn't win tournaments. tezz does. fish does. oath does. these are the reasons why people play those decks and not yours. that's all there is to it.

[Rico Suave]

Again, when objectively bad gobs builds top8 pretty much as often as they get played...why aren't people playing this deck?

I think a Goblins deck made top 8 at a NYSE tournament once, after facing Fish all day in the swiss.  The first pairing in the top 8 was Oath against Goblins, and naturally the Goblins player was quickly eliminated.

Honestly, I think the better question is why would anyone choose to play this deck.  From my experience, Goblins has 1 good match: Fish.  It can do well against something like Stax with a first turn Lackey on the play.  But the rest of its matches range from an uphill battle to abysmal. 

[Sporkcore]

I think a Goblins deck made top 8 at a NYSE tournament once, after facing Fish all day in the swiss.  The first pairing in the top 8 was Oath against Goblins, and naturally the Goblins player was quickly eliminated.

That was the NYSE event last December where two Goblin lists made Top 8 and both were paired against Oath and lost.

[Prospero]

Again, when objectively bad gobs builds top8 pretty much as often as they get played...why aren't people playing this deck?

I think a Goblins deck made top 8 at a NYSE tournament once, after facing Fish all day in the swiss.  The first pairing in the top 8 was Oath against Goblins, and naturally the Goblins player was quickly eliminated.

Honestly, I think the better question is why would anyone choose to play this deck.  From my experience, Goblins has 1 good match: Fish.  It can do well against something like Stax with a first turn Lackey on the play.  But the rest of its matches range from an uphill battle to abysmal. 

Corey Mann was the pilot.  He's a good friend.  He has been out of competitive Vintage for a while, but he went to the finals of a Waterbury however many years ago, then won the day two.  He hadn't played Vintage since Goblins was more competitive.  He won a SCG 5K and has 15 PTQ top 8's in his resume.  I can promise you that the list was about as good as you're ever going to see a Goblins list get.

[AmbivalentDuck]

so the answer is: like a year ago? goblins won a tournament in europe, like a year ago.

why ask why people don't play the deck? it doesn't win tournaments. tezz does. fish does. oath does. these are the reasons why people play those decks and not yours. that's all there is to it.

You've just restated the problem I gave earlier: nobody plays the deck so it doesn't win often, despite the 1 in 10 top8 showings being first place rankings.  As long as it's "my" deck and people aren't testing it, it won't catch on.  Funny thing, I doubt many people would pick it up even if I won a tourney with it, but that's a different issue.

Who cares if the deck is performing FREQUENTLY?  If it's not frequently piloted by good players (and seems to perform disproportionately well even when it's not...), it's success is limited by the frequency with which it's played not its quality.

Corey Mann was the pilot.  He's a good friend.  He has been out of competitive Vintage for a while, but he went to the finals of a Waterbury however many years ago, then won the day two.  He hadn't played Vintage since Goblins was more competitive.  He won a SCG 5K and has 15 PTQ top 8's in his resume.  I can promise you that the list was about as good as you're ever going to see a Goblins list get.

I don't think his skill as a player and past accomplishments say anything about his deck building or selection skills.  He had access to black and chose to forgo Earwig Squad:  that's like leaving Force of Will out of Tez.  His performance does tell us that the core of the deck is so strong that even with major supports removed, it can still top8.  Similarly, the build that won the 130 man tourney was mono-red with no fetches.  No fetches -> no thinning -> suboptimal.

Honestly, I think the better question is why would anyone choose to play this deck.  From my experience, Goblins has 1 good match: Fish.  It can do well against something like Stax with a first turn Lackey on the play.  But the rest of its matches range from an uphill battle to abysmal.  

Then you haven't tested it recently.  

-Vandal and Lackey are both brutal against Stax and with the amount of artifact acceleration we run, Earwig Squad is a very plausible turn 2 play.  If you read through Max and I's tourney reports, you'll see that most of our Stax matchups are simple blowouts in our favor.  
-The Tez matchup is even or better.  Long story short: Bitter Ordeal out of the side is brutal.
-The Ichy matchup is about even.  Unlike most decks in the format, we have a fairly solid game 1 and they have enough issues with Earwig Squad that I can often win without seeing dedicated Ichy hate.  We don't run counterspells to protect our Leylines, though.  
-The Oath matchup isn't as lopsided as you seem to think it is.  It's at most 60% against us.  A resolved Earwig takes every critter I can't race, and Warren Weirding is Time Walk for the purposes of getting 20 to the dome.
-Combo is actually our worst matchup, we need early Thorns and capping to win.  This one probably is 60% against us.  Reliance on FoW to stop Squad is actually pretty rough on many storm builds.  Funny thing: goblins vs. Gush-era Doomsday is a blowout in gobs' favor.

[policehq]

Other decks have more potential to do more broken things thanks to better resource development, card draw, and better spells that are not useful only in some matchups. That's why people don't play Goblins more.

[Rico Suave]

Then you haven't tested it recently.  

As a matter of fact, I have tested it recently.  To be specific I took your exact list in testing.  I wouldn't have said anything if I had no idea what I was talking about.

More often than not it is a weaker version of a normal Goblins deck.  It doesn't have the raw speed, explosiveness, or power of a normal Goblins deck because a number of the Goblins it does use are simply weaker versions of other Goblins.  Instead, it trades lots of that speed and power for cheese effects that try to RFG the opponent's win conditions.  If this plan is unsuccessful, the deck is quite frankly left with a bunch of really awful cards.

I also find some of your other analysis faulty.  For example you claim a "fairly solid" game 1 against Dredge, and cite Earwig Squad as a resaon (???), yet I don't see how this is possible in the slightest.  I can't help but think there is bias in your testing. 

[AmbivalentDuck]

It sounds like you were trying to play legacy with a vintage deck.  Your "explosiveness" is resolving Earwig Squad.  If beats were a viable strategy in vintage, you'd see far more MUD top8s.  It also sounds like you're relatively poor at getting Earwig Squads to resolve.  If you would play a turn 1 Lackey over a turn 1 Matron, you're doing it wrong.  Especially with a Wasteland in hand.

You can read my tourney reports: I frequently leave a dredge opponent dead in the water by taking Narcs or Bridges with Squad.

[voltron00x]

It sounds like you were trying to play legacy with a vintage deck.  Your "explosiveness" is resolving Earwig Squad.  If beats were a viable strategy in vintage, you'd see far more MUD top8s.  It also sounds like you're relatively poor at getting Earwig Squads to resolve.  If you would play a turn 1 Lackey over a turn 1 Matron, you're doing it wrong.  Especially with a Wasteland in hand.

You can read my tourney reports: I frequently leave a dredge opponent dead in the water by taking Narcs or Bridges with Squad.

MUD's been making top 8s like crazy of late.  Not sure what that comment's supposed to mean.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Yeah, that's an oops.  I didn't realize that Welders were getting replaced en masse with Trikes.  They still tend to be primarily disruptive as opposed to beats oriented, though.

I'm pretty sure that workshop acceleration into Juggernaut, Su-Chi, etc simply outclasses legacy aggro.

[Rico Suave]

It sounds like you were trying to play legacy with a vintage deck.  Your "explosiveness" is resolving Earwig Squad.  If beats were a viable strategy in vintage, you'd see far more MUD top8s.  It also sounds like you're relatively poor at getting Earwig Squads to resolve.  If you would play a turn 1 Lackey over a turn 1 Matron, you're doing it wrong.  Especially with a Wasteland in hand.

I'm open to the idea that I wasn't playing it correctly.  I'm just trying, perhaps in vain, to give you a perspective of what other people think. 

There are three main problems with the deck from my point of view:
1) The deck is very weak without Earwig Squad
2) Resolving a Squad is extremely difficult
3) There are too many times where even a resolved Squad simply does not win

Even if you get a hand with access to a quick Squad, which is a big enough problem by itself, you still need to resolve it.  And pray it actually works even if it resolves.  And you need to do this twice in a match. 

I'm sorry, but people don't play this because they feel it is not the best strategy.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Thank you very much for the perspective.

There are three main problems with the deck from my point of view:
1) The deck is very weak without Earwig Squad

Agreed, it's built to be an Earwig Squad deck.  You lean hard on it in most matchups.

2) Resolving a Squad is extremely difficult

I disagree and think it's a matter of practice with baiting both counters and commitment to the wrong strategy from the opponent.

3) There are too many times where even a resolved Squad simply does not win

I've found this to be seldom true.  It's more of an issue with Bitter Ordeal since relatively few matches truly revolve around only Time Vault and tinkerbot.  We've sideboarded it for that reason.  Also, if I'm resolving Earwig Squad earlier than you are, I may have more opportunity to take key cards before the opponent can get them into hand/play.

Even if you get a hand with access to a quick Squad, which is a big enough problem by itself

We have a higher tutor density than ANYTHING ELSE in the format and only need to find an unrestricted card.  I also have more experience with mulliganning this particular deck.

you still need to resolve it.  And pray it actually works even if it resolves.  And you need to do this twice in a match.

It's a bit of a mischaracterization, but generally you WOULD like to resolve Earwig Squad every game.  Squad is plan A and it's our strongest plan.  The beats plan is nowhere near as strong.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Top 8 - Rubén Godino - Food Chain Goblins
Maindeck:
1 Forest
7 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Recruiter
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Skirk Prospector
2 Chrome Mox
4 Food Chain
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
Sideboard:
2 Krosan Grip
1 Naturalize
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Tormod's Crypt

No clue where to start on unpowered Food Chain top8ing.  I think it's pretty clear that Instigator strategies are strictly better in a non-proxy field (with Mana Drain actually represented).  The combo is fragile.  Rapes stax pretty naturally and the sideboard is robust.  4 Incinerator + Sharpshooter main means he owns the aggro mirror.  I don't really have nice things to say about playing the deck in a "real" field with Drains, but the performance isn't particularly surprising in a non-proxy meta.

[conboy31]

doube post.