[Discussion] Goblins

[RecklessEmbermage]

I 'top 8'ed at superstars yesterday in a field of 15, with the list & changes I posted above, save adding a lightning bolt and removing a pyroblast.

Congratulations!

Any observations you made in the process -or a report if you have the time- would be appreciated!

Thanks ADuck.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I 'top 8'ed at superstars yesterday in a field of 15, with the list & changes I posted above, save adding a lightning bolt and removing a pyroblast.

Congratulations.  Can you repost the list?  If someone wants to put together goblins at the last minute for a friend to play at a tourney, odds are they'll just copy the last list that top8-ed from the bottom of this thread.

[MaximumCDawg]

I doubt that the name choice comes from David.  When the Duck flaming "NuVintage" subforum was created, some full members decided it would be a good extension to the flame Duck meme to change all instances of the word "Goblin" to "Tarpan."  This is apparently sanctioned or at least tolerated.

Hear, hear.  I saw that new forum get created, and then read the threads... and found it was just a place to bash you.  Seems petty.  Goblins is a serious deck, even if it's not the most popular or potentially the strongest, and the crap that people give you seems sort of undeserved.  Of course, I've only been on the Drain for about a year, so maybe you've done some horrible things to people in the past that justify your current punishment.

In other news, Scars is giving us Spikeshot Elder.  3 mana for 1 damage is pretty stinky, but if you're using vials or instigators and don't care about your mana after turn 1 anyway, does he warrant a second look?  That 1 damage hits other aggro decks or bobs where it hurts.

[AmbivalentDuck]

In other news, Scars is giving us Spikeshot Elder.  3 mana for 1 damage is pretty stinky, but if you're using vials or instigators and don't care about your mana after turn 1 anyway, does he warrant a second look?  That 1 damage hits other aggro decks or bobs where it hurts.

My gut reaction is that Incinerator is better in Vintage since Elder won't hit 2+ power in most of our builds and the 1RR is actually pretty rough in the matchups where you'd most want him.  If you can stick a Chieftain or equipment, you're winning those matchups anyways.

I'm strongly of the opinion that if we want repeatable burn, we should be looking into Lightning Crafter, especially in the Kiki combo builds.

[AmbivalentDuck]

David Devio – “Last M’Net Men” [I don’t know, that’s what it says]

5 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Badlands
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Warren Weirding
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Mogg War Marshall
4 Tarpan Warchief
1 Tarpan Tinkerer
4 Tarpan Ringleader
4 Tarpan Piledriver
4 Tarpan Matron
4 Tarpan Lackey
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Earwig Squad

SB:
4 Tarpan Welder
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Relic of Progenitus

[Note: This one was a little interesting, especially the spelling.  Sorry if there are mistakes.  I’ve tried to correct everything but make no promise of perfection]

Interesting because of green splash, only 2x Earwig, 2x Siege-Gang, Ancient Tomb, and no non-Matron tutoring.  Verdict: heavily unoptimized list top8s again.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I should have beaten him round 1, but I won game 1 easily, then lost game 2 to a godhand (Lotus, land, Lackey, Warchief), then lost game 3 due to keeping a poor hand and probably poor play.  It was the first match I had ever played with MUD.  In the top 8 I kept good hands (turn 1 Lodestone) and crushed him.  I think the list was pretty unfocused, and had a godawful amount of hate in it.

[madmanmike25]

then lost game 2 to a godhand (Lotus, land, Lackey, Warchief)

LOL godhand.  I know thats brutal as hell vs any shop deck, im just laughing at how this godhand compares to other Vintage godhands with Vault, Oath, Tinker, Recall, Walk, Will, etc.  It put's things into perspective for me.  

For the record, I had no idea Goblins had a godhand.

[smasher]

I have also played against goblins that got that same godhand. He played mountain for lackey, lotus for warchief, then to my amazement passed the turn!! I emptied the warrens for 8 tokens and won that game.

[AmbivalentDuck]

That's not a god hand.  Lackey + Time Walk + Ancestral on turn 1 is a god hand.  Any Lotus hand is likely to include a 1 cmc goblin drop and a Chieftain or Warchief.

Anyways, new card in Scars that seems relevant:

Kuldotha Rebirth
Sorcery   
As an additional cost to cast Kuldotha Rebirth, sacrifice an artifact.

Put three 1/1 red Goblin creature tokens onto the battlefield.

3 power for one mana isn't bad, particularly with effects like Chieftain and Piledriver that can make it considerably more.  I won't be playing this, but it might be worth consideration in some other builds.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Anyways, new card in Scars that seems relevant:

Kuldotha Rebirth
Sorcery   
As an additional cost to cast Kuldotha Rebirth, sacrifice an artifact.

Put three 1/1 red Goblin creature tokens onto the battlefield.

3 power for one mana isn't bad, particularly with effects like Chieftain and Piledriver that can make it considerably more.  I won't be playing this, but it might be worth consideration in some other builds.

Not only an option for goblins, but for any casual deck that wants tokens. Looks like is sits somewhere between war marshal and dragon fodder in power, if you sac the right artifact (my retriever, moonvessel or servitor come to mind. Cool little card.

[BruiZar]

Card is an empty the warrens without storm.

[sassfactor4]

Im pretty excited about liquimetal coating in place of null rod.  Allows for a larger fast mana package, increase the goblin vandals and tin street hooligans, possibly gorilla shamans, and go to town on permanents, all while bashing away. 

[RecklessEmbermage]

Im pretty excited about liquimetal coating in place of null rod.  Allows for a larger fast mana package, increase the goblin vandals and tin street hooligans, possibly gorilla shamans, and go to town on permanents, all while bashing away. 

It also opens up for skullclamp shenanigans. Vial is an option, but I don't see it competing with fast mana.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It will be the first goblins list with a strong late game control strategy outside the Fish and Stax matchups.

Coating + Tinkerer seems particularly dumb.

[sassfactor4]

Post Scars build (as yet untested, notes on inclusions below)
=-=-=-=
Maindeck:

18 Lands
-=-=-=
1 mountain
1 barbarian ring [added at the expense of 1 fetch for uncounterable removal]
3 taiga
3 badlands
2 wooded foothills
3 bloodstained mire
4 wasteland
1 strip mine

8 Artifacts
=-=-=-=-=
1 mox ruby
1 mox jet
1 black lotus
1 mana crypt
1 skullclamp [no more nullrod = more card draw]
3 liquimetal coating [synergy with tinkerer, vandal, hooligan, seal of primordium, ancient grudge]

24 Creatures
=-=-=-=
4 goblin lackey
4 earwig squad
3 goblin matron
3 goblin ringleader
2 goblin vandal [primo against shops, boosted by liquimetal]
2 goblin tinkerer [primo against shops, boosted by liquimetal]
1 Tin Street Hooligan [primo against shops, boosted by liquimetal]
1 goblin piledriver
1 vexing shusher
1 wort, boggart auntie [excellent synergy with skullclamp]
1 goblin warchief

11 other spells
=-=-=-=-=
2 warren weirding
1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 vampiric tutor
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
2 lightning bolt
2 ancient grudge

sideboard:
(4 for TPS)
3 Mindbreak trap
1 pyrostatic pillar

(1 for other aggro)
1 Gempalm incinerator [uncounterable removal, rather than jitte, on the fence about which this should be]

(3 for shops \ oath)
1 pulverize
1 ancient grudge
1 seal of primordium

(7 for dredge)
2 leyline of the void
1 Nihil Spellbomb [1 sided relic of progenitus]
2 Yixlid jailer
2 Ravenous trap

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Sideboard choices are pertinent to west coast meta and could be a totally different board for more shop heavy metas.

I think this still loses on the coinflip to shops game 1.

Any criticism is greatly appreciated.
The idea being that none of the 7 maindeck artifact hate is bad on its own, and adding the liquimetal in place of nullrod allows all the cards to go from artifact hate to vindicate.

[chalywong]

The "tarpan" list is actually almost the same main deck as Corey Mann's build we were talking about earlier in the thread.  He did -1 weirding and -1 gempalm to fit in the earwigs and changed artifact mutation for ancient grudge.  I don't know how I feel about earwig in this build because of the lack of one drops but I can see the need for a cap effect.  As for myself I think aether vial might still have a spot in this deck because of the MUD heavy metagame.  I like the idea of having it in the main and having null rod in the board.  Null rod is a great card but in some matchups it is a completely dead card(dredge, fish, some shop builds) making a strong argument to shove it in the board.  I feel this type of build for goblins is much more consistent and stronger than "disruptive" build that cuts core cards like ringleader and warchief.   These cards are what make the deck deadly and taking them out makes you a weaker version of fish without counterspells and an extremely weak clock.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Sassfactor: In that list, I'd cut one tinkerer and the shusher for 2 vandals, to increase the utility of earwig and t2 liquimetal. One tinkerer is interesting as a tutor target while the shusher isn't.

I'd also find room for the fourth matron and ringleader. That could mean cutting frankly less essential cards in your maindeck: the blasts or bolts.

You should also consider an extra skullclamp and switching one grudge for artifact mutation to create some clamping hilarity in the late game.

I like how your Rbg list presents powerful solutions to combo and workshops available from turn 2. Definitely something I'll be toying with.

What do you think about maindeck seals of primordium?

[sassfactor4]

I like the shusher as it replaces the force of will \ spell pierce as your "x backup" when you need your next spell to stick.  It isn't a sexy solution but it works.  The same with the blasts, they aren't great but I'd rather have them than nothing. 

I have maindecked seal of primordium in the past, its generally never dead, but i always prefer to have something swinging in.  When its a crackable vindicate however....

The lightning bolts are pure gold, i'd be hard pressed to not include them.  bob, trygon, baby goyfs, goblins, mind censor, meddling mage, lodestone\ juggs, all gone.  Or just burn for 3 to win.

[Daenyth]

With liquimetal coating, does goblin welder merit any consideration? Seems like it could be interesting against stax and give more ways to totally shut down someone's board. Or is it win more without being able to run stupid artifact tricks of your own?

[AmbivalentDuck]

I suspect that Goblins is now the Liquimetal Coating deck.  In that case, we run 4 Vandal, 4 Tinkerer, 4 Ancient Grudge main and forget that Stax ever existed.

Off-hand, I'm sure that:
-Liquimetal Goblins is fully accelerated
-The splash is for Green and Grudge, not blue and "power"
-Earwig Squad is still important against combo
-Extirpate also comes main: Extirpating a dual can cut many decks off from an entire color

I'll have a sample build soon.

[AmbivalentDuck]

What if we do 4x Welder and 4x Nihil Spellbomb main as a draw engine?  Never losing to Ichorid OR Stax means we can do ridiculous things like run 4+ Red Blasts main.  That also frees up ridiculous amounts of sideboard space.

[meadbert]

So if you are going R/G then there is Survival of the Fittest as a draw engine.

You could run the Welders you mentioned along with Survivals and single Squee.
That can tutor up Goblins and filter out redundant Gorilla Shamans.
If you run Painter it can tutor for Painter.
This might be too slow for type 1 though.
A token artifact Fatty would be nice for Welding in too.

[Killane]

What if we do 4x Welder and 4x Nihil Spellbomb main as a draw engine?  Never losing to Ichorid OR Stax means we can do ridiculous things like run 4+ Red Blasts main.  That also frees up ridiculous amounts of sideboard space.

you will still loose to Dredge. The spellbomb is nice, but I don't think it's good enough to save you game one without a god hand and scouting, since most modern builds give you maybe 3 turns on the play to set up, Sun Titan build (which runs Void in both Leyline and Chalice form main) tends to kill on turn 2.

[chalywong]

heres the list ive been working on.

4x lackey
4x piledriver
4x matron
4x ringleader
4x warchief
3x mogg fanatic
2x gempalm incinerator
2x warren weirding
2x siege gang
1x tin street
1x tinkerer
1x mogg war marshal
1x stingscourger
4x aether vial
1x mox ruby
1x black lotus
4x badlands
1x wooded foothills
1x arid mesa
4x mountain
4x wasteland
1x strip mine
2x taiga
4x bloodstained mire

sideboard
3x null rod
3x krosan grip
3x yixlid jailer
2x extirpate
4x thoughtseize

any card is open for discussion, looking for any feedback

[sassfactor4]

At this past weekend's superstars tourney (with 11 participants) I ran Corey's list +- 5 cards or so, (less basic mountains, one less ancient tomb, 4 earwig squads, one goblin matron switched for a demonic tutor).

Not having any interaction with your opponents turn was definitely intimidating.  (I dont think there was a single instant?)

I beat a jace control list 2-0, then lost every other match in spectacular fashion.  Perhaps more aggressive mulligan procedures were in order as I kept some fairly weak hands with null rod or lackey.

I did get to live the dream of hitting with lackey, resolving earwig squad for prowl cost and dropping a siege gang commander and tokens in one turn with a lethal piledriver to go next turn, but otherwise I dont know if I like the 0instants.dec

[AmbivalentDuck]

Not having any interaction with your opponents turn was definitely intimidating.  (I dont think there was a single instant?)

Mindbreak Traps out of the sideboard are probably a necessary evil.

Goblins appears to be a questionable deck choice for the current meta due to the increasing number of critters that can chump block a Lackey in the early game combined with lower impact of Earwig Squad on the most prevalent decks.

[Joblin Velder]

So, I'm heading to a tournament and am looking for a solid control deck to bring. The disruption here is what I'm looking for, but I'd feel comfortable with a few hard counters. Do you think it would be possible to find room for 4 x FoW and make this work? Lackey with Force back up sounds AWESOME.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Unfortunately, the Goblin tribe's power depends on the concentration of cards with the type Goblin in your deck.  Due to various trends, you would be taking a questionable deck and making it worse by diluting it

I tested a 4x Jace, 4x Spell Pierce, 4x Mindbreak/FoW list once.  It was solid vs combo but lost too much against Stax and Fish.

[AmbivalentDick]

Unfortunately, the Goblin tribe's power depends on the concentration of cards with the type Goblin in your deck.  Due to various trends, you would be taking a questionable deck and making it worse by diluting it Sad

I tested a 4x Jace, 4x Spell Pierce, 4x Mindbreak/FoW list once.  It was solid vs combo but lost too much against Stax and Fish.

[Hillboy]

I'm not sure the inclusion of blue for FOW is the greatest idea however kuldotha rebirth makes me wonder about running 4 chrome mox, 4 pithing needle, 4 tormod's crypt, and 4 sensei's divining top as a draw engine maybe real moxen and mox opal. Put in a couple more artifacts add shrapnel blast and galvanic blast and you might have a pretty darn fast clock with some artifact disruption. Although it would open the deck up to artifact hate. I used to play TMWA and looking beyond the obvious always seemed to help. Of course these suggestions may only be detrimental to the strength of the deck.