[Discussion] Goblins

[Daenyth]

Having your Rebirth spell pierced seems cringe-worthy, since the best time to cast is turn 1

[AmbivalentDuck]

Having your Rebirth spell pierced seems cringe-worthy, since the best time to cast is turn 1

Another way to say it is that Spell Pierce would normally be completely dead against you, and instead randomly 2-for-1s you.

[Klep]

Having your Rebirth spell pierced seems cringe-worthy, since the best time to cast is turn 1

Another way to say it is that Spell Pierce would normally be completely dead against you, and instead randomly 2-for-1s you.

That doesn't actually sound any better.

[TopSecret]

So, I'm heading to a tournament and am looking for a solid control deck to bring. The disruption here is what I'm looking for, but I'd feel comfortable with a few hard counters. Do you think it would be possible to find room for 4 x FoW and make this work? Lackey with Force back up sounds AWESOME.

I remember there were a number of UR Goblins lists that top 8'd a bit ago playing stuff like Daze, Force of Will, Ancestral, and Fire//Ice. Try using the TMD search for "UR Goblins" or something and something should come up.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I've been testing Goblins again and it's performing well.  Turns out Steel Sabotage adds a lot more punch to that blue splash.  Add in the fact that Lightning Bolt can be a meaningful maindeck player in the modern meta...and you've got a deck.  I credit Slash Panther with having made Workshops so much worse against Gobs that I'd even bother testing this deck.  Trike, by comparison, is almost impossible to beat.

Why play Goblins as opposed to Fish?
-Access to Jester's Cap effect with a 5/3 butt. (See the inclusion of Cap in the Champs top8)
-Meaningful access to and use of artifact acceleration. (8x artifact ramp has much less susceptibility to turn 1 Lodestone)
-It's rare to lose to "other" Fish due to backbreaking effects like Gempalm Incinerator + possible Wort recursion
-7 tutors main, contrast this with the more typical one or two.
-Legitimate access to Pulverize in the sb versus shops.  Wiping their boarding through almost any number of Spheres is quite good.
-One of the few decks in the format that can support maindeck Surgical Extraction
--I'm happy to debate its merits elsewhere.
-Goblin Welder + 3x Sabotage + Warren Weirding offers numerous outs to Blightsteel that are very unlikely to be dead.
-Printing of Flusterstorm enables a legitimate control game post-board against combo, the traditional Gobs boogeyman.

Cockatrice-formatted decklist:
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

2 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Volcanic Island
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Earwig Squad
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Welder
1 Mogg Fanatic

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Warren Weirding
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Steel Sabotage
4 Lightning Bolt

SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Pulverize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Planar Void
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

[Commandant]

Have you tried Frantic Search?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Have you tried Frantic Search?

No.  Feel free to try it and report your results.  I suspect that getting that much mana against Workshops would be...difficult.

[Shax]

Alot of basic goblins list have top 8'd recently on morphling.de, so look into those.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I did.  They seem to appear as mono-red builds in fish-heavy, under-powered metas.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Alot of basic goblins list have top 8'd recently on morphling.de, so look into those.

On second glance, this 1st place list does a lot right:

Maindeck (60):
Spells (42):
4 Aether Vial
1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Ruby
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Recruiter
2 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Welder
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger

Lands (18):
13 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15):
2 Crash
3 Pulverize
2 Pyroblast
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Relic of Progenitus

Pulverize is very effective out of the sb, 13 Mountains are impervious to Wasteland in the fish-heavy meta this won in, 2x Welder, 1x Scourger deals neatly with both Shops and Tinker.  3x Incinerator main and 4x Pyrokinesis out of the sideboard likely make "fish" a bye.  All of that said, the list looks extremely dependent on Goblin Lackey to get a meaningful clock against "blue," particularly combo variants.

So, meta solution for sure.  Remember that we've also seen a very similar gobs list win a 135-man event.  I'm pretty sure that the solidity against Fish and Shops starts falling apart once you change more than a few slots from this list.  In particular, splash colors aren't "available."  This is why we see the Crash tech in place of Ancient Grudge, Lightning Bolt, or even Hearth Charm.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Maindeck (60):
Spells (43):
4 Aether Vial
1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Recruiter
1 Goblin Ringleader
2 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Stingscourger

Lands (17):
12 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland


Sideboard (15):
3 Crash
2 Pulverize
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus

Many questionable choices in here, but it performed well in a meta with a mostly brown/fish/dredge top8.  No insult to the creator of the deck, but he must have won die rolls all day to make use of those Chalices.  At a glance, the deck is also very dependent on getting Lackeys.  Anyways, enough with that, we have a new rainbow land.

Cavern of Souls makes Lackeys, Instigators, and Squads uncounterable...and that's very good.  It's unclear whether that makes Instigator Gobs viable, but it may pull the deck out of the dustbin since FoW on Instigator no longer stalls the deck.  The recent fundamental problems remain: flashed in blockers, Mental Misstep, and the lack of a fast card advantage engine other than Matron.  Uncounterable Jester's Cap is very good, as is uncounterable BSC bounce.  Maybe some merit here...we'll see how it plays out over the next few months.

[Grand Inquisitor]

No insult to the creator of the deck, but he must have won die rolls all day to make use of those Chalices.

It's a common misconception that chalice @0 is only good on turn zero/one.  The follow up being the reason why null rod/silence is preferred to chalice in non-workshop lists.  The reality is a little more measured.  Provided that a player isn't flooded with chalices and/or there's some reasonable threat to playing it @1, then the card is quite effective at creating game-winning advantage even in the midgame.

People forget how often tutor>lotus or draw3>acceleration is needed for a blue deck to pull back into the game vs. goblins and the like.  I make this point deliberately because I think Cavern will really allow some new creature strategies and they shouldn't be pigeon-holed by a limited view.

[AmbivalentDuck]

This particular build has Vial, but even so it may be harshly punished by its own Chalice@1.  That said, Chalice@1 becomes very manageable with Cavern of Souls to make it one-sided.

[Blue Lotus]

The recent fundamental problems remain: and the lack of a fast card advantage engine other than Matron. 

Tibalt? Seriously how many lands do you need in play? Sandbag all but two and draw cards.

Of course if you're playing black confidant maybe better.

In another note how good is earwig squad? Lots of people are playing lots of creatures. I remember when you were playing squad people had sadistic sacrament in their boards and that is definitely not a card anymore.

[A.-1.]

This particular build has Vial, but even so it may be harshly punished by its own Chalice@1.  That said, Chalice@1 becomes very manageable with Cavern of Souls to make it one-sided.

This becomes very dependent on having Cavern of Souls in your opener and is also reliant on your opponent not playing Wasteland. While Cavern obviously helps Goblins versus big blue, I've always felt that Goblins biggest threat was actually Shops. This is another reason why I'm more a fan of the green splash instead of black. I'd rather have access to Nature's Claim, Artifact Mutation, Deglamer, and the like instead of Earwig Squad. Is Squad even that good anymore with most blue decks running more than three win conditions?

[xouman]

Big blue is playing snapcasters and jaces. Earwig passes over snaps and exiles jaces/kills them. Is a really nice out against oath, quite decent against batterskull (more and more common around) and it's one of the best beaters you can have for 2B. I love Earwig Squad!

[Guli]

Duck, I especially like the tempo play of turn 1 Cavern>Lackey with Stinger in your hand to clear the path. This allows you to play Chalice/Cavern with options to set it at 0-1-2. I played against your gob list a lot and it had real potential. Just redesign, cut some cards, look at the new meta and so on...

I would also consider Simian Spirit Guide (will help versus shop as well), petal and some of that double strike lackey plus some additional clear the way cards, bolt probably.

5/3 is a huge clock, and the ability makes it even more attractive.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I don't doubt that there's an Instigator deck fueled by Cavern out there.  But I think Shax was right: it runs Serum Powder to help get a relevant hand.  The question then becomes: if you need a two card combo in your opener to be competitive, why not instead play Dredge, a one card combo?

[AmbivalentDuck]

After playing against some 4c "Fish" on Cockatrice that ran Guttersnipe, I threw Gobs back together to see how it fared against the gauntlet. Guttersnipe later got cut, but Rakdos Charm is very cute. At its core, this is still a toolbox soft control deck. Earwig Squad loses some strength against most decks, but still does good work against combo and Guli out of the board. Maindeck Cages and 4x Rakdos Charm give you a strong g1 vs Dredge. Increasing reliance on "bad" draw engines justifies finally running Thoughtseizes main. I strongly dislike Piledriver, but I'm not sure what should replace it.

List:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
2 Earwig Squad
2 Goblin Welder
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Mad Auntie
1 Goblin Chieftain

2 Cavern of Souls
4 Badlands
2 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rakdos Charm
3 Thoughtseize
2 Grafdigger's Cage

Sideboard:
4 Mental Misstep
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Earwig Squad
1 Pulverize
1 Swamp
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

SB plans
Dredge:
-4 Bolt
-3 Thoughtseize
+2 Squad
+1 Leyline
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Yawgmoth's Will
+2 Mental Misstep

Grixis:
-4 Rakdos Charm
-1 Mad Auntie
-1 Vampiric Tutor
+4 Misstep
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Red Elemental Blast

Burning Oath:
-4 Lightning Bolt
-4 Rakdos Charm
-1 Mad Auntie
-1 Goblin Sharpshooter
-1 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Mogg Fanatic
+4 Mental Misstep
+1 Red Blast
+1 Pyroblast
+2 Earwig Squad
+2 Thorn of Amethyst

Brown:
-2 Cage
-1 Sharpshooter
-1 Piledriver
+1 Swamp
+1 Pulverize
+2 Earwig Squad

Guli:
-2 Cage
-4 Rakdos Charm
-2 Goblin Welder
-1 Goblin Piledriver
+1 Swamp
+1 Yawgmoth's Will
+4 Mental Misstep
+2 Earwig Squad
+1 Red Elemental Blast (Rest in Peace + Energy Field
+1 Pyroblast

[AmbivalentDuck]

Name is unknown, but text is known

~Army Loyalist,
Creature - Goblin Soldier   
Haste
Battalion - Whenever ~ and at least two other creatures attack, creatures you control gain first strike and trample until end of turn and can't be blocked by tokens this turn.
1/1

First strike and trample make Earwig Squad and Goblin Piledriver dramatically better against Tarmogoyfs and Cavern-Humans. While I'm confident that this is better than many of the 3cmc "lords," it doesn't address the decline in Earwig Squad's power level against "blue" given the new density of removal and increase in win-con count.

In conclusion, Gobs remains a questionable choice in the current meta.

[MaximumCDawg]

A second hastelord that pushes Piledriver even harder is potentially bonkers for Legacy, though.

[AmbivalentDuck]

A second hastelord that pushes Piledriver even harder is potentially bonkers for Legacy, though.

First strike and trample will definitely matter. I'm not sure how much a gob that can't disrupt or turn sideways for 5 damage will affect Vintage, though.

This replaces Goblin Chieftain and MAYBE justifies upping the Piledriver count.

Something like:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Earwig Squad
2 Goblin Welder
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Army Loyalist
1 Mad Auntie

2 Cavern of Souls
4 Badlands
2 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rakdos Charm
3 Thoughtseize
2 Grafdigger's Cage

Sideboard:
4 Mental Misstep
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Earwig Squad
1 Grafigger's Cage
1 Pulverize
1 Swamp
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

[vaughnbros]

The goblins list I've been playing seems to be tremendously different from all of yours.  Since I don't own any of the cards I will more than likely never play this outside of cockatrice...

1 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Recruiter
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Sparksmith
4 Goblin Vandal
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
4 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Ringleader
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Goblin Welder
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Frogtosser Banneret
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Earwig Squad

SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Pulverize
SB: 3 Earwig Squad

The thing that really made this list possible is cavern of souls.  Not maxing on that card makes no sense to me.  Its nearly impossible to lose when you have it.

Really other than some consistency issues with getting too much or too little mana.  I think a list along these lines is extremely competitive.  The only deck I don't want to see is burning long, but with 3 Mindbreak traps in the board, and that deck's own inconsistencies, even that match up is winnable.

As far as this new guy goes... Creatures in general are nothing to this list as I can recruiter to stack 4 gempalms on top of my library, or I can simply drop a sparksmith.  This renders first strike and trample pretty much useless.  On top of that in my list if I'm attacking with enough creatures to gain battalion it's highly likely that is the lethal swing or very close to it.  I don't see how this really compares see the comparison to the 3 mana lords.  They grant haste to all of your goblins, which I think is the most important aspect of them.  On top of that they grant an additional static ability, +1/+1 or making everything cheaper.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Cavern enables an uncounterable swarm strategy, but trying to commit a large number of high CMC gobs to the table with minimal disruption and removal (no Strip, Wasteland, Rakdos Charm, Lightning Bolt, Thougthseize, etc) means that you're really attempting to race your opponent. What you see as mana inconsistencies, I see as inability to reliably find Black Lotus, Mana Crypt, and Sol Ring.

The reason I don't max out on Cavern is because it borders on irrelevant when your opponent isn't on blue. Wasteland is the more flexible card.

[TheWhiteDragon]

The reason I don't max out on Cavern is because it borders on irrelevant when your opponent isn't on blue. Wasteland is the more flexible card.

Wasteland is nice, but your argument about cavern is a bit flawed.  Cavern also gets through chalice @ 1 which stops your lackeys.  It also gets through chalice @ 2 which is several beaters and your artifact destruction spells.  So it is useful vs shops.  Also, you could use chalices yourself as an option with caverns.

But that only leaves caverns as good vs decks that run A) blue counters, or B) shops that utilze chalices.  Granted, wastelands are better for shops when you run nonbasics like caverns, but if you can drop a lackey through the turn 1 chalice @ 1, you really shouldn't care if they waste your cavern with their next land drop.

So if caverns are good vs blue and useful vs shops, then you are dodging the times it is dead in...dredge, that often runs mental misstep?  Perhaps GW fish that also may run misstep?  Dark times?

Point being that every meta is 80 blue/shops and 20 non-blue fish or dredge.  So you're not maxing caverns that are good in 80% of matches, to be better vs 20%?

Now in your particular list, it's fine as you have more spells than creatures, but in more traditional lists, 4x caverns seems right almost always.  In your list, I might suggest a 2/2 split in main and sb so you have them vs blue (most matchups) as a 4 of g 2/3, and a 0 of when you don't need them.  Vs blue, you rakdos charms are usually coming out anyway, so less colored mana you need.  Bring in the rebs and be fine on a single mountain and some caverns.

[AmbivalentDuck]

stops your lackeys.

To be clear, anyone who blindly drops a Chalice@1 game 1 has scouted you or isn't good at Vintage. Against a blind Chalice@2, you're already winning.

Without the high cmc gobs, you're much less dependent on Lackey. That's a good thing given the proliferation of blockers and removal.

blue counters

You should also run Misstep. Most builds will only have Force of Will to counter your "real" threats like Earwig and the lords.

Granted, wastelands are better for shops when you run nonbasics like caverns

You're forgetting that Wasting their Workshop is potentially backbreaking.

traditional lists

Let's be clear that the "traditional" lists only perform in Fish metas. Both Shops and "blue" can put a game away before you get two swings with a Lackey in. If you're not disrupting, you're losing.

[vaughnbros]

trying to commit a large number of high CMC gobs to the table with minimal disruption and removal (no Strip, Wasteland, Rakdos Charm, Lightning Bolt, Thougthseize, etc)

Where are the high CMC cards I'm trying to commit to?  My list has 8 1 drops, and only 2 4+ mana.  Also froggtosser banneret and goblin warchief work well to reduce my mana costs.  As for disruption and removal, the goblins themselves are disruption and removal.  Artifacts and creatures are blown away by the 4 gempalms, 4 vandals, 1 sparksmith, 1 welder, 1 siege-gang, 1 stingscourger and the 8 tutors that find them.  I generally don't need to disrupt other spells as in vintage most of them don't affect the board state.  You should be able to kill them by turn 4 or at the very least Earwig them by turn 3.

you're really attempting to race your opponent.

Yes that's exactly what plan A is.  This is goblins, not wizards.  Why would I waste all that mana and deck space by playing all those non creatures?  The only decks I can't race lose to my post board 4 uncounterable jester's caps.  As for games when I do happen to lose the race.  Goblin recruiter provides a nice plan B by generating nearly infinite card advantage that no deck can endure in the long run.

What you see as mana inconsistencies, I see as inability to reliably find Black Lotus, Mana Crypt, and Sol Ring.

This is incorrect.  I'm talking about mana floods as well as mana shorts.  This decks mana inconsistencies are no different from a deck like burning long.  It's just a by product of playing a lot of mana sources that only tap for mana.

stops your lackeys.

To be clear, anyone who blindly drops a Chalice@1 game 1 has scouted you or isn't good at Vintage.

I'm confused.  Chalice at 1 is a standard play for every workshops deck.

Without the high cmc gobs, you're much less dependent on Lackey.

Lackey also loses a large amount of his power when you don't have access to the powerful goblins.  Many of your choices over them, like demonic tutor, vampiric, consulation, rakdos charm, cost an enormous amount of mana investment themselves.

blue counters

You should also run Misstep. Most builds will only have Force of Will to counter your "real" threats like Earwig and the lords.

Or I can run more caverns and their forces and missteps do nothing.  On top of that your justification makes no sense misstep does nothing to protect earwig and lords from getting countered.

Granted, wastelands are better for shops when you run nonbasics like caverns

You're forgetting that Wasting their Workshop is potentially backbreaking.

You know what's also potentially back breaking?  Not losing a mana source/land drop.  Wasteland is a land for a land, which makes the whole world manaless.  Also if your going to run wasteland, go all in on it.  2 wastelands and 1 strip mine isn't going to mana deny anyone in a format that's well prepared to face 5 strip effects and spheres.  Cavern renders chalice of the void obsolete, giving you an actual gain in the workshops match up.

traditional lists

Let's be clear that the "traditional" lists only perform in Fish metas. Both Shops and "blue" can put a game away before you get two swings with a Lackey in. If you're not disrupting, you're losing.

Are your "control" goblins crushing workshops and blue?  

As for my list I don't even need to get 1 lackey swing in to win.  Preventing my opponents aggressiveness by playing him is generally buys enough time for my recruiter plan to take hold of the game.

To me rakdos charm, thoughtseize, lightning bolt, are all tremendous wastes of space.  
1.  You can't use caverns on them, making your opponents counter spells always relevant.
2.  Since they are noncreatures they open you up to thorn of amethyst and make you more vunerable to removal since your creature count is reduced.    
3.  Worst of all though you lose an enormous amount of tempo by using your mana to 1 for 1 your opponent instead of dropping a goblin.

The fact of the matter is in vintage you need to have the ability to dictate to your opponent how the game is going to be played.  Or in simpler terms go broken.  If your deck is not capable of doing this it can't be successful.  Goblins decks can do this by being faster, more consistent, and/or having greater card advantage.  By omitting key cards, I don't see your deck utilizing any of these strengths.

[TheWhiteDragon]

stops your lackeys.

To be clear, anyone who blindly drops a Chalice@1 game 1 has scouted you or isn't good at Vintage. Against a blind Chalice@2, you're already winning.

Without the high cmc gobs, you're much less dependent on Lackey. That's a good thing given the proliferation of blockers and removal.

blue counters

You should also run Misstep. Most builds will only have Force of Will to counter your "real" threats like Earwig and the lords.

Granted, wastelands are better for shops when you run nonbasics like caverns

You're forgetting that Wasting their Workshop is potentially backbreaking.

traditional lists

Let's be clear that the "traditional" lists only perform in Fish metas. Both Shops and "blue" can put a game away before you get two swings with a Lackey in. If you're not disrupting, you're losing.

Wastelands can cripple a workshop...it can also do nothing vs non shop/bazaar decks.  The same reasoning you use that "cavern can be good or dead" equally applies to wasteland.

Running misstep to force your goblins/spells through a blue deck is a losing battle.  They will out counter you 3-1.  They will also out-draw you enough to do that.

Traditional lists don't just perform in fish metas - in fact, they are best in heavy blue metas with less blockers.  Golem changes the landscape a bit, but goblins with actual swarms of goblins has a decent game vs a lot.  rather than controlling/disrupting and getting in several swings, a couple quick swings with casting disruptive goblins (gempalm/stingscourger/earwig) can be deadly fast.

CotV @1 is as strong a play as chalice @2 in many cases.  If a shop deck opens with any non-shop land, playing chalice @ 1 is very good.  Even with shop + mox, a chalice @1 + sphere is sometimes better than chalice @2.  While 2 hits many of the wincons in the meta, @1 hits lots of gas/disruption/answers - ancestral, BS, seize, duress, claim, sabotage, plow, lightning bolt, PtX, ponder, fastbond, topdeck tutors, voltaic key, pithing needle, misstep, noble, deathrite, etc.  The bombs cost 2, but the rest of the deck usually costs 1.

As I said, a 2/2 split isn't terrible.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Wastelands can cripple a workshop...it can also do nothing vs non shop/bazaar decks.  The same reasoning you use that "cavern can be good or dead" equally applies to wasteland.

We both note that I run a mix. My reasoning is that I run sufficient tutoring to find either when needed and in addition they're both less useful in multiples. 3-1 splits in either direction are reasonable in various metas. With the inclusion of Rakdos Charm, it might even be correct to split 4-0, leaving in only Strip Mine. I don't know how much Army Loyalist increases the quality of Earwig Squad and the importance of resolving it against FoW.

Running misstep to force your goblins/spells through a blue deck is a losing battle.  They will out counter you 3-1.  They will also out-draw you enough to do that.

Not from their opening hand. My goal when playing gobs against blue is to ram in an Earwig Squad ASAP, take their "oops I win," and force them to play an attrition game where I run more threats. Misstep complements that strategy by disrupting both early attempts to win before I matter and their 1 CMC disruption (Bolt, Darkblast, etc).

Traditional lists don't just perform in fish metas - in fact, they are best in heavy blue metas with less blockers.  Golem changes the landscape a bit, but goblins with actual swarms of goblins has a decent game vs a lot.  rather than controlling/disrupting and getting in several swings, a couple quick swings with casting disruptive goblins (gempalm/stingscourger/earwig) can be deadly fast.

Standard Grixis builds run...7 2/1s? I suspect that debating match win %'s is counterproductive as we run very different builds.

CotV @1 is as strong a play as chalice @2 in many cases.  If a shop deck opens with any non-shop land, playing chalice @ 1 is very good.  Even with shop + mox, a chalice @1 + sphere is sometimes better than chalice @2.  While 2 hits many of the wincons in the meta, @1 hits lots of gas/disruption/answers - ancestral, BS, seize, duress, claim, sabotage, plow, lightning bolt, PtX, ponder, fastbond, topdeck tutors, voltaic key, pithing needle, misstep, noble, deathrite, etc.  The bombs cost 2, but the rest of the deck usually costs 1.

I strongly believe that the advent of Burning Oath makes blind Chalices at 0 and/or 2 (hand dependent) correct.

[credmond]

I strongly believe that the advent of Burning Oath makes blind Chalices at 0 and/or 2 (hand dependent) correct.

Blind chalice at 2 is a bad play for MUD, it cuts off a lot of cards in your deck (most importantly your own spheres). Burning oath is very beatable by MUD and you shouldn't need to go on tilt mode to beat it. Also, Burning Oath is not exactly the "deck to beat"