[Premium Article] Primer: Confidant Control

[Smmenen]

Dark Confidant has seemingly replaced Thirst For Knowledge as the ubiquitous draw engine of choice, appearing in Drain decks like Tezzeret, but also Stax decks, Ritual decks, and Fish and Aggro decks alike.    In short, Confidant is everywhere and anywhere.   But is it being maximumly utilized?   Are these the best homes for this star player? 

In this article I suggest another approach that attempts to abuse the best synergies with Dark Confidant, squeezing every last drip of synergy. 

Primer: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/18167_So_Many_Insane_Plays_All_About_Bob_Confidant_Control_in_Vintage.html

Enjoy!

[zeromancer]

Because of the title, I expected something new. So I was disappointed to find an article explaining how your Grow list works, a deck that was already featured in similar form in previous articles. Sorry, but this looks like a filler. Besides some changes to the last list and the new name there's nothing new in there. This is definitely one of your weaker articles.

[Scyther]

Would you like to share your list with me and other poor non-premiums? =)
This would be really nice.

greez =)

[KrauserKrauser]

The deck looks solid enough but you need to revist your Oath plan.

Having a plan of Echoing Truth if they get an Oath off is not going to work as Iona is going to name blue and you aren't going to be having a fun time.  If it continues to be as successful as it currently is, you are going to need some non-blue plan for that matchup.

[jewfro]

this looks like a filler

Don't be hating. This article was great, the idea of it was to show that grow is evolving into something new, not a repeat of old articles.
I liked the article thanks.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

SSDD.

[Killane]

Nice deck breakdown as usual.

I like your recent trend of bringing non-Fish creature decks back to Vintage. First Xmas beatings, now this. even though I'm not a big fan of winning with beaters (unless they're huge and Oathed into play), it's nice to see some diversity being brought to the table instead of yet another strategy of

Key, Vault, win

or

cast a bunch of spells, Tendrils for 20

even though those strategies present the greatest intrinsic power.

Regarding your Oath plan though, I agree with KrauserKrauser that Echoing truth isn't going to cut it. If they resolve an Oath (and they have 4 FoW and 4 Spell Pierce plus either 4 Drains or 4 Duress/Seize effects to help them do it) and get the dude out, the dude in the developing Oath archetype right now seems to be Iona, with a combo win the following turn out of the yard. I think the Oath plan needs to make some room for the Leylines to hate out the combo win with Iona, and then make some allowances for dealing with big angry dragons in game 3 (game 1 will, as you have pointed out and all else being equal, come down to which resolves first- their Oath or your Thoughtseize). I have tested 10 or so matchups (though admittedly not against players approaching your caliber) piloting a variation of the new Oath, and turn 2/3 kills (Iona coming down on 2, and comboing out from the yard on 3, with the opponent's turn in between generally being completely ineffective due to the presence of the Angel) are rather common and completely immune to disruption via bounce spells once the Oath trigger resolves.

[Smmenen]

Because of the title, I expected something new. So I was disappointed to find an article explaining how your Grow list works, a deck that was already featured in similar form in previous articles. Sorry, but this looks like a filler. Besides some changes to the last list and the new name there's nothing new in there. This is definitely one of your weaker articles.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

SSDD.

This was the first time I wrote a full-blown primer on the deck.    Earlier articles on this deck have never been written as a primer, and were either exploratory or tournament reports.    This is my first attempt to write a primer on this deck systematically explaining the deck, how to play it, etc.   Sorry you didn't feel like there was new information.  I included LOADS of play tips, warnings on easy traps, matchup information, sideboarding helps, etc.  

What a bunch of negative nancies!

The deck looks solid enough but you need to revist your Oath plan.

Having a plan of Echoing Truth if they get an Oath off is not going to work as Iona is going to name blue and you aren't going to be having a fun time.  If it continues to be as successful as it currently is, you are going to need some non-blue plan for that matchup.

I may have been unclear.  

This deck's 7 Duresses and 7 Counterspells means that Oath coming down is difficult, and most of the time an Oath hits it's usually a topdeck, since an Oath in hand hasn't to run the Duress gauntlet.   Notice this deck has 5 tutors that can find E. Truth.   My ponit is that your opponent might topdeck Oath and play it, and you can then tutor up E. Truth and E. Truth the Oath BEFORE they've Oathed.   If they Oath, you're probably going to lose.  

Nice deck breakdown as usual.

Regarding your Oath plan though, I agree with KrauserKrauser that Echoing truth isn't going to cut it. If they resolve an Oath (and they have 4 FoW and 4 Spell Pierce plus either 4 Drains or 4 Duress/Seize effects to help them do it) and get the dude out, the dude in the developing Oath archetype right now seems to be Iona, with a combo win the following turn out of the yard. I think the Oath plan needs to make some room for the Leylines to hate out the combo win with Iona, and then make some allowances for dealing with big angry dragons in game 3 (game 1 will, as you have pointed out and all else being equal, come down to which resolves first- their Oath or your Thoughtseize). I have tested 10 or so matchups (though admittedly not against players approaching your caliber) piloting a variation of the new Oath, and turn 2/3 kills (Iona coming down on 2, and comboing out from the yard on 3, with the opponent's turn in between generally being completely ineffective due to the presence of the Angel) are rather common and completely immune to disruption via bounce spells once the Oath trigger resolves.

Yes, my point is that you use E. Truth to bounce the Oath but before they've Oathed.   I've done this many times and it's worked fine.   The problem is that Oath topdecks Oath's when I'm just holding Duresses and I've already Duressed their hand.    Here, you just tutor up E. Truth, bounce the Oath.  

[MirariKnight]

Smmenen is right here; if you plan on stopping Oath AFTER the creature(s) happen, you're not going to be too successful. Duress effects are killer. If you're really worried maybe some type of enchantment kill is good (Krosan Grip or something? idk) but I'd imagine you just play the control role and don't drop guys without thinking you have a chance.

[Smmenen]

Smmenen is right here; if you plan on stopping Oath AFTER the creature(s) happen, you're not going to be too successful. Duress effects are killer. If you're really worried maybe some type of enchantment kill is good (Krosan Grip or something? idk) but I'd imagine you just play the control role and don't drop guys without thinking you have a chance.

Yeah -- I have run a pair of Seal of Primoridums in the sideboard, but I actually found them to be only modestly ok against Oath simply because there are only two Tropical Island in the deck.  I would include Seal before K. Grip because of the 2 v. 3 cc, but it is an option.   

I ran Seals in the Tryant Oath era, and they were great.   

If you are concerned about Oath, try a pair of Seals in the sideboard.   

[zeromancer]

What a bunch of negative nancies!

How weak.

[Smmenen]

What a bunch of negative nancies!

How weak.

yeah, you got me.

you complained that i wrote  'nothing new,' yet this was the first time I'd written a detailed primer on the deck.   

[Killane]

The deck looks solid enough but you need to revist your Oath plan.

Having a plan of Echoing Truth if they get an Oath off is not going to work as Iona is going to name blue and you aren't going to be having a fun time.  If it continues to be as successful as it currently is, you are going to need some non-blue plan for that matchup.

I may have been unclear.  

This deck's 7 Duresses and 7 Counterspells means that Oath coming down is difficult, and most of the time an Oath hits it's usually a topdeck, since an Oath in hand hasn't to run the Duress gauntlet.   Notice this deck has 5 tutors that can find E. Truth.   My ponit is that your opponent might topdeck Oath and play it, and you can then tutor up E. Truth and E. Truth the Oath BEFORE they've Oathed.   If they Oath, you're probably going to lose.  

Nice deck breakdown as usual.

Regarding your Oath plan though, I agree with KrauserKrauser that Echoing truth isn't going to cut it. If they resolve an Oath (and they have 4 FoW and 4 Spell Pierce plus either 4 Drains or 4 Duress/Seize effects to help them do it) and get the dude out, the dude in the developing Oath archetype right now seems to be Iona, with a combo win the following turn out of the yard. I think the Oath plan needs to make some room for the Leylines to hate out the combo win with Iona, and then make some allowances for dealing with big angry dragons in game 3 (game 1 will, as you have pointed out and all else being equal, come down to which resolves first- their Oath or your Thoughtseize). I have tested 10 or so matchups (though admittedly not against players approaching your caliber) piloting a variation of the new Oath, and turn 2/3 kills (Iona coming down on 2, and comboing out from the yard on 3, with the opponent's turn in between generally being completely ineffective due to the presence of the Angel) are rather common and completely immune to disruption via bounce spells once the Oath trigger resolves.

Yes, my point is that you use E. Truth to bounce the Oath but before they've Oathed.   I've done this many times and it's worked fine.   The problem is that Oath topdecks Oath's when I'm just holding Duresses and I've already Duressed their hand.    Here, you just tutor up E. Truth, bounce the Oath.  

Ok, understood. Do you find that the current builds with a high density of counterspells make it difficult to get a Truth to fire? Or is it that, once you get past turn 1 Oath, you can usually Duress it out, and so the Truth really only gets used on turn 2 to bounce the Oath, in which case if they also have counter back-up well, that's the way the cookie crumbles?

Chalice of the Void seems like it would have a nice home in this deck. Drop a Bob, a Goyf, and then a chalice for two. No loss of life when drawing it with Bob.  Not maindeck due to the unfortuante possibility of Voiding your own beaters, but in the board vs Oath and TPS type builds, and chalice at 0 seems like it would be very one-sided in your favour as well. what do you think?

[zeromancer]

What a bunch of negative nancies!

How weak.

yeah, you got me.

you complained that i wrote  'nothing new,' yet this was the first time I'd written a detailed primer on the deck.   

That sure is the stronger defense. Nevertheless most of the article you wrestle with captain obvious and to me it seems you're loosing there. Obviously there are people who like the article. I, personally, expect more of your premium articles as you have done better in the past.

[Smmenen]

The deck looks solid enough but you need to revist your Oath plan.

Having a plan of Echoing Truth if they get an Oath off is not going to work as Iona is going to name blue and you aren't going to be having a fun time.  If it continues to be as successful as it currently is, you are going to need some non-blue plan for that matchup.

I may have been unclear.  

This deck's 7 Duresses and 7 Counterspells means that Oath coming down is difficult, and most of the time an Oath hits it's usually a topdeck, since an Oath in hand hasn't to run the Duress gauntlet.   Notice this deck has 5 tutors that can find E. Truth.   My ponit is that your opponent might topdeck Oath and play it, and you can then tutor up E. Truth and E. Truth the Oath BEFORE they've Oathed.   If they Oath, you're probably going to lose.  

Nice deck breakdown as usual.

Regarding your Oath plan though, I agree with KrauserKrauser that Echoing truth isn't going to cut it. If they resolve an Oath (and they have 4 FoW and 4 Spell Pierce plus either 4 Drains or 4 Duress/Seize effects to help them do it) and get the dude out, the dude in the developing Oath archetype right now seems to be Iona, with a combo win the following turn out of the yard. I think the Oath plan needs to make some room for the Leylines to hate out the combo win with Iona, and then make some allowances for dealing with big angry dragons in game 3 (game 1 will, as you have pointed out and all else being equal, come down to which resolves first- their Oath or your Thoughtseize). I have tested 10 or so matchups (though admittedly not against players approaching your caliber) piloting a variation of the new Oath, and turn 2/3 kills (Iona coming down on 2, and comboing out from the yard on 3, with the opponent's turn in between generally being completely ineffective due to the presence of the Angel) are rather common and completely immune to disruption via bounce spells once the Oath trigger resolves.

Yes, my point is that you use E. Truth to bounce the Oath but before they've Oathed.   I've done this many times and it's worked fine.   The problem is that Oath topdecks Oath's when I'm just holding Duresses and I've already Duressed their hand.    Here, you just tutor up E. Truth, bounce the Oath.  

Ok, understood. Do you find that the current builds with a high density of counterspells make it difficult to get a Truth to fire?

My testing and writing with this deck came just before the most recent crop of Oath decks, but to be honest, I think that these oaths lists are MUCH better for this deck, as before this deck was contending with Chalices and Wastelands.   Wastelands are really painful for this deck because of the light mana base, and chailce on 1 is even worse. 

That said, i have 14 counterspells/Duresses, and mine are at least as efficient as Oaths.    This deck is designed to tear apart an opponent's hand.

 Or is it that, once you get past turn 1 Oath, you can usually Duress it out, and so the Truth really only gets used on turn 2 to bounce the Oath, in which case if they also have counter back-up well, that's the way the cookie crumbles?

It's not just that yo can duress out the oath, but you duress out countermagic and map out there hand.   if you already take an oath, your second or third duress can take force or drain or whatever.

Chalice of the Void seems like it would have a nice home in this deck. Drop a Bob, a Goyf, and then a chalice for two. No loss of life when drawing it with Bob.  Not maindeck due to the unfortuante possibility of Voiding your own beaters, but in the board vs Oath and TPS type builds, and chalice at 0 seems like it would be very one-sided in your favour as well. what do you think?

chalice 0 would be nice much of the time, but it would also stop you from goig bonkers with will at times.   also, chalice 2 is impossible to cast.  this deck rarely gets 4 mana in a relevant time frame. 


[/quote]

[Smmenen]

From the internet ether: Someone asked about Sleight of Hand v. Serum Visions.  there is no contest.   Sleight of hand allows you to see a better card now which is superior to having greater card selection later.   

[zeromancer]

From the internet ether: Someone asked about Sleight of Hand v. Serum Visions.  there is no contest.   Sleight of hand allows you to see a better card now which is superior to having greater card selection later.   

But doesn't Sleight of Hand synergize better with the top-deck tutors and Dark Confidant?

[Smmenen]

From the internet ether: Someone asked about Sleight of Hand v. Serum Visions.  there is no contest.   Sleight of hand allows you to see a better card now which is superior to having greater card selection later.   

But doesn't Sleight of Hand synergize better with the top-deck tutors and Dark Confidant?

In the broadest sense, yes.   

Sleight of Hand is a better card, and therefore makes your deck better.   For example, turn three Sleight of Hand on numerous occassions found me Duress or Force *NOW*, since they were the second card down. 

[zeromancer]

From the internet ether: Someone asked about Sleight of Hand v. Serum Visions.  there is no contest.   Sleight of hand allows you to see a better card now which is superior to having greater card selection later.    

But doesn't Sleight of Hand synergize better with the top-deck tutors and Dark Confidant?

In the broadest sense, yes.  

Sleight of Hand is a better card, and therefore makes your deck better.   For example, turn three Sleight of Hand on numerous occassions found me Duress or Force *NOW*, since they were the second card down.  

My bad, I inserted the wrong card name. I meant Serum Visions has the better synergy with the top-deck tutors and Dark Confidant. As you not only don't "loose" one card with the tutors (the one you have to put to the bottom of the library with sleight of hand), you can also dodge Confidant damage with scry.

Still, what you are saying sounds convincing.

[Bongo]

For example, turn three Sleight of Hand on numerous occassions found me Duress or Force *NOW*, since they were the second card down.  

But isn't that (needed card is the second one) the only time where Sleight of Hand is better? In the case where you need the first or third card, Serum Visions is strictly better, not to mention the Confidant and topdeck tutor synergies.

Edit: I found a more thorough analysis: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=16840.0

[Smmenen]

For example, turn three Sleight of Hand on numerous occassions found me Duress or Force *NOW*, since they were the second card down.  

But isn't that (needed card is the second one) the only time where Sleight of Hand is better? In the case where you need the first or third card, Serum Visions is strictly better, not to mention the Confidant and topdeck tutor synergies.

Edit: I found a more thorough analysis: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=16840.0

Thanks for linking that.   That's a bizarre analysis, with loaded assumptions that are clearly wrong or questionable.   For example, no weight is apparently given to tempo -- the only focus is the relative importance of the top three cards.   

 Note I was the first reply in the thread  

[MirariKnight]

So I played a few games against this deck tonight while playing Iona Reclamation Oath. I won most of them but it was certainly not easy. The deck certainly has some power to it but what I don't understand is why it doesn't play either Null Rod or Time Vault. It felt like it was missing something and I'm almost positive those cards would fill the role nicely.

[Killane]

So I played a few games against this deck tonight while playing Iona Reclamation Oath. I won most of them but it was certainly not easy. The deck certainly has some power to it but what I don't understand is why it doesn't play either Null Rod or Time Vault. It felt like it was missing something and I'm almost positive those cards would fill the role nicely.

Did you win because the Confiant deck was unable to rip your hand apart fast enough? Did the opponent try to play the beatdown and missassign role? Or were you able to win through the hate?

I guess what I'm asking is do you think you won due to deck quality or play quality, and in what sense?

[Smmenen]

So I played a few games against this deck tonight while playing Iona Reclamation Oath. I won most of them but it was certainly not easy. The deck certainly has some power to it but what I don't understand is why it doesn't play either Null Rod or Time Vault. It felt like it was missing something and I'm almost positive those cards would fill the role nicely.

I've tested both Null Rod and Time Vault.   

I explained their non-use elsewhere:

"Although the deck has a lot of tutors, the deck does not run Time Vault and Voltaic Key. Instead, the deck uses Tarmogoyf. It does this for several reasons. First of all, Time Vault and Voltaic Key are not very good by themselves. Since Dark Confidant already inflicts a non-trivial amount of damage on your opponent, Goyf will often be enough to finish the job within a few short turns. You might be sitting there longer hoping to tutor up the missing Key/Vault combo part. Goyf is good by itself, unlike Key/Vault. Although Key/Vault can indeed generate victories by randomly drawing both in an opening hand, or one and a tutor, or assembling them mid-game, Goyf better synergizes with the deck’s existing strategy, while Voltaic Key/Time Vault does not. For example, one of the advantages of this deck is invulnerability to Null Rod and other anti-Time Vault hate. All of the times that you would randomly win with Key/Vault are outweighed by the fact that Goyfs (or any other card) are individually useful. In the end, it makes more sense to run Goyfs than Key/Vault.

This deck is very good at attacking Key/Vault strategies without using Null Rod because of the sheer quantity of Duresses and virtual card advantage. The reason this deck does not run Null Rod, despite being relatively immune to it, is that this deck also wants to take advantage of being broken. It has a very broken Yawgmoth’s Will, which often relies on Black Lotus to do the greatest number of broken things after resolving Yawgmoth’s Will. Like other UB decks that run Mana Drain or Dark Ritual, this deck uses Yawgmoth’s Will to win the game through overwhelming card advantage. For that reason, Null Rod is not very good here. It’s better to run Yawgmoth’s Will and other broken cards than Null Rods in this deck. Yawgmoth’s Will allows the deck to replay spells such as: Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Gush, and tutor up those cards, and others besides such as Tinker. That’s another reason this deck runs so many efficient restricted tutors: to abuse Yawgmoth’s Will and Tinker."

The point of this deck is to position yourself outside of the Null Rod v. Time Vault dynamic by running neither and yet attacking both. 

[Scyther]

Just want to ask one more time:
You not make your lists public anymore?

I'm really intrested in your newest Grow-progressions.

[MirariKnight]

The point of this deck is to position yourself outside of the Null Rod v. Time Vault dynamic by running neither and yet attacking both.  

I can see the reasoning for not using Null Rod, but since your vault hate doesn't shut off your own vault, but rather clears the way for it, I can't see why you can't just find room for the two cards. I doesn't suddenly make you vulnerable to anything, the negative effect is minor and the benefit is huge, in my opinion. Vault/Key has to be better than Slight of Hand x2, especially considering the Voltaic-Top interaction.

[Smmenen]

The point of this deck is to position yourself outside of the Null Rod v. Time Vault dynamic by running neither and yet attacking both.  

I can see the reasoning for not using Null Rod, but since your vault hate doesn't shut off your own vault, but rather clears the way for it, I can't see why you can't just find room for the two cards. I doesn't suddenly make you vulnerable to anything, the negative effect is minor and the benefit is huge, in my opinion. Vault/Key has to be better than Slight of Hand x2, especially considering the Voltaic-Top interaction.

What do you see as the negative effect?

If you cut two Sleight of Hand, then you have to find room for a third land.

The only reason this deck can get away with a 18 card mana base -- and all the virtual card advantage it enjoys as a result -- is because of 4 Sleight of Hand.  

The ratio is that two cantrips can replace a land.   If you cut two Sleight, then you'll have to add another land.  And if you cut another, then you'll need more land, and so on.

The reason that Time Vault is not in this deck is the same reason why its not in TPS.   Individually, Time Vault and Key are not good enough.  

Take almost any 7 card hand and see if it would be better with or without top.  

Consider:

Misty Rainforest
Underground Sea
Duress
Dark Confidant
Tarmogoyf
Sleight of Hand/Time Vault
Force of Will

Which is better?  

Even in hands with Time Vault AND Voltaic Key, Sleight of Hands would often just be better.  For example, you'll draw many hands where Sleight is the only other card to pitch to Force or hands like this:

Flooded Strand
Sleight of Hand
Sleight of Hand
Duress
Thoughtseize
Force of Will
Tarmogoyf

If those Sleights were Voltaic Key + Time Vault, would this hand actually be better?   Maybe.  Maybe not.

Remember, I've tested Time Vault + Key in this deck extensively.    Every card in this deck needs to be good on its own.  Neither card does enough on its own and every card serves specific needs.   There is nothing to really cut for it without affecting lots of other cards or disrupting the mana base.   Then you also have to contend with lots of hate and tutor up the wrong cards.  This deck tutors for card advantage and tempo advantage, not to assemble a combo.  

[SilverRocket]

Have you considered Bitterblossom in the sideboard for the Fish and Workshop matchups?

[Smmenen]

Have you considered Bitterblossom in the sideboard for the Fish and Workshop matchups?

No.  That's an intriguing idea that I hadn't considered, or hadn't considered lately.   If I were to go that route, I would consider cutting some number of Bobs simply because of the life loss.   My SB plan would change dramatically if I were to go that route. I"ll have to test it out. 

[Valorale]

So I played a few games against this deck tonight while playing Iona Reclamation Oath. I won most of them but it was certainly not easy. The deck certainly has some power to it but what I don't understand is why it doesn't play either Null Rod or Time Vault. It felt like it was missing something and I'm almost positive those cards would fill the role nicely.

I ran about a half dozen games of this deck vs Iona oath as well. Iona won every single game.

I kept trying to figure out why that was and the best I can come up with is Iona is just faster. C/C doesnt have the time to setup Dark Conf and build up the card advantage. Even if C/C opens up with several hand disruption type effects, Iona is so versatile in recovering that they can overcome having an Oath and a tutor yanked from them on T1. The worst however is that when Iona could force an Oath on the table even if C/C could tutor for something to get rid of it, the deck (at least in G1) has nothing. The best I could do was tinker for Inkwell, then watch hopelessly as Iona oathed, dropped out Iona, named blue. Then eventually Yawg/Win, 1 Fire//Ice in the deck took care of Inkwell as Iona attacked for victory.