[Free Article] Catching up with Vintage

[voltron00x]

In this week's article, I catch up with the newest tech in Vintage, with decklists and analysis of B/R Stax, Iona Oath, Meandeck and G/W Beats, an updated Mana Ichorid list, and thoughts on the "dominance" of Mana Drain and the supposed warping effect of Time Vault.  In many ways, this is a "best of the Mana Drain" article; I hope you'll find it useful.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/18319_The_Long_Winding_Road_Catching_Up_With_Vintage.html

[Smmenen]

Matt,

I didn't want to say anything about this until today, since I was going to run this card at the Meandeck Open today, but you didn't mention Greater Gargadon as an answer to Oath.  

I ran 3 in my Tezzeret sideboard today and it was incredible in my Oath matchup.    My team has been excited about GG for several weeks now, and I'm so glad that we can finally talk openly about it!  

GG only costs one mana, and although it can be Needled, it's really amazing.  

EDIT:

On your point about Mindbreak Trap, the problem with Trap is that it's a hard counter, unlike Stifle.  It's really, really hurt TPS in my testing.   Not only do I have to play around it, but the edge that I had is now gone because a single card can now counter my biggest spells.  I've gotten Bargain trapped, when my opponent only had 1 card in hand! 

[pierce]

beat me to it.

without either pithing needle or that W instant from time spiral block, or a very lucky key/vault win an oath player is pretty cold to GG. I've also had 3 in my tezz board for nearly a month.

[voltron00x]

Well, it isn't coincidence that I switched one of my pieces of Ichorid hate to Pithing Needle and recommended that others do so as well.  There were people playing Gargadon at the Philly Open on Saturday.

Gargadon is something that people ran locally last spring, when I won the blue bell in April.  Its one of the reasons why I added Tinker + robot to my list initially.  Should Gargadon become popular as an anti-Oath tool, its still relatively easy to beat by adding 1-2 Needle and Tinker + robot to the SB.  Gargadon also doesn't really address the fact that you can still win with Key/Vault.

Of course, my plan was to run Ichorid, which would have been a good call - 50% of the Ichorid players made T8.

Also, re: Mindbreak Trap, with access to ALL of the decklists, I'll be able to count how many were in the field and see how relevant the card is for people considering playing TPS.  Steve N. has made T8 of almost every tournament he's played TPS since August.

[Womba]

Looks like you might be updating your ichorid list again...

Of course, my plan was to run Ichorid

Was the list in your article the list you would have played at the Philly Open?

[voltron00x]

Looks like you might be updating your ichorid list again...

Of course, my plan was to run Ichorid

Was the list in your article the list you would have played at the Philly Open?

I have the foil Bloodghasts so if that ends up being the version to beat, I'm ready...

But yes, I was going to play the list from the article with a few minor tweaks.  I had the deck reg form filled out and everything...

[voltron00x]

One other point about Gargadon... outside of Oath, it has very limited usefulness.  The problem with running 3 Gargadon with, say, 7 pieces of Ichorid hate, is that you now have a 5 card sideboard for the 80%+ of the field that isn't Ichorid or Oath.  Using cards like Spell Snare, Stifle, Seal of Cleansing / Primordium, Krosan Grip, EE, and so on is more appealing for me, because although they're not quite the slam dunk GG is against an unprepared Oath player, they at least don't chew up 1/5 of your sideboard for a deck that is 10-12% of the field.

I also noticed that Vroman's list has Tinker + Robot in the SB, and already runs Key/Vault, so today's Oath decks are slightly more prepared...

[personalbackfire]

Also, re: Mindbreak Trap, with access to ALL of the decklists, I'll be able to count how many were in the field and see how relevant the card is for people considering playing TPS.  Steve N. has made T8 of almost every tournament he's played TPS since August.

This past weekend was the first time I have ever been Mindbreak Trapped in a tournament. I am not sure if its a big presence in other metagames, but it doesn't seem like it is in the Philly/Long Island NY tournaments.

I don't have much experience against the card but I would imagine that Duress goes a long way in making sure that your opponent does not have it, much like any other counter spell.

[pierce]

my reply was more in part due to your claim that there wasn't really a hate specific card for oath. something along those lines in your article. I simply believed this to be untrue, and countered with an example of a card that works only against oath. other examples include goblin bombardment, but of course that gets spell pierced in addition to pithing needle, so I went with GG.

and, no it's not a perfect situation. tinker is also an additional out in some lists. I've lost two games where I had GG suspended, but will probably stick with him, as he's won me many more.

[voltron00x]

my reply was more in part due to your claim that there wasn't really a hate specific card for oath. something along those lines in your article. I simply believed this to be untrue, and countered with an example of a card that works only against oath. other examples include goblin bombardment, but of course that gets spell pierced in addition to pithing needle, so I went with GG.

and, no it's not a perfect situation. tinker is also an additional out in some lists. I've lost two games where I had GG suspended, but will probably stick with him, as he's won me many more.

I think you seriously misread what I wrote.

From the article:

Unfortunately, hating on Oath isn’t that difficult to do. Unlike a deck like Tezzeret, Oath can be hated out with specific cards, as it revolves around resolving an Enchantment.

and,

Although the Vintage metagame can be relatively slow to adapt in some ways, hating on Oath is something that can be done relatively quickly and easily if the deck continues to perform as well as it has for the past few months. The positive side of this is that several of these cards only fit into certain strategies, and some of them are narrow and won’t be played when Oath isn’t popular; this suggests that Oath will move into a similar boom/bust type metagame percentage as we see with Ichroid.

Gargadon is exactly the type of card I'm referring to - its a completely anti-Oath card that only comes up when Oath starts to exceed around 10% of the meta for consecutive tournaments.

[psyburat]

I also brought in Greater Gargadon vs. GW at the Philly Open IV (playing Red Shop Aggro), since the permanents that their excessive spot removal hit could simply be fed to it.  It ended up making the winning attack in game 3.  They went in for my Sword of Fire and Ices as I feared excessive tempo loss due to the aforementioned spot removal.  Perhaps too much of a corner case, but just throwing that out there.

[madmanmike25]

Do you think Runed Halo becomes more attractive at combatting Oath since it targets?

It also appears to be a decent answer to Inkwell/DSC/Tendrils/"X" all the while being an enchantment.  Maybe the G/W decks can use it, since Halo seems very versatile for a sb card.  Sometimes you draw Krosan/enchant hate after Oath triggers.

EDIT: Btw thanks for the freebies.

[islanderboi10]

Up here in washington, the trap has been played a few times.  When I played against a deck that ran it, I always would duress it first, or play with Force back up.

When I was talking to a friend of mine about TPS(Before I built it) I asked about the card and he simply said (not exact quote)"The trap is like playing around stifle, a smart combo player will have duress'd or have Force back up when playing around it."

Now I know that you sometimes just have to go all out, and run into it, which I have.  Sometimes you just have to play around it.  But the point I am trying to make is, I treat the trap like Stifle. Sometimes you just run into, most of the times I have duress or Force back up.

In my opinion, the card isn't very hard to play around.

[Smmenen]

Up here in washington, the trap has been played a few times.  When I played against a deck that ran it, I always would duress it first, or play with Force back up.

When I was talking to a friend of mine about TPS(Before I built it) I asked about the card and he simply said (not exact quote)"The trap is like playing around stifle, a smart combo player will have duress'd or have Force back up when playing around it."

Now I know that you sometimes just have to go all out, and run into it, which I have.  Sometimes you just have to play around it.  But the point I am trying to make is, I treat the trap like Stifle. Sometimes you just run into, most of the times I have duress or Force back up.

In my opinion, the card isn't very hard to play around.

I really have to disagree.  Just after Zendikar was released I was testing against my teammate Brian Demars ((ForestsFailedYou) who has, what 4 Vintage Worlds top 8s?), and I was playing TPS.    We played like 20 games, and several times Mindbreak Trap got me.  It's not at all like playing around Stifle.   Stifle can't remove your Yawgmoth's Bargain from game when your opponent has one card in their hand and are tapped out.  If not for Mindbreak Trap I would have won a majority of our matches.   Mind you, I was also playing around it.  

The advantage against Tezzeret decks was already thin.   The printing of Mindbreak Trap makes TPS a dog to a top flight Tez pilot, or, uncomfortably close to even.   If you can't  have a solidly favorable game one, then I see no reason to play TPS.    This is coming from someone who is a TPS expert, and most the people playing TPS in the states have been using the list that I made standard last fall, with minor tweaks.  

I'm not sure what to do... Xantid Swarm, Sadistic Sacramnet, etc.  These are all options that can be explored.   But I don't have the time or the inclination to do so at the moment.  I'd like someone else to start winning with TPS and show me that TPS is worthwhile.   Can TPS top 8?  Definitely.  

But making Top 8 should rarely be the goal of any tournament goer.   I just don't see TPS breaking into the top 4 or top 2, let alone winning tournaments right now.  

If not for Mindbreak Trap, I would be playing TPS in tournaments right now, using this list: (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17980_So_Many_Insane_Plays_The_Perfect_Storm_Revisited.html ).

[credmond]

Even though greater gargadon is good at stopping oath cold I don't think its required to beat oath in a Tezzeret deck. It really only forces oath to play a back up plan (vault/key, tinker robot, tezzeret) while you play a card that does nothing for several turns and loses you tempo and clunks up your deck and sideboard space. The oath player also has a cheap and verstile foil to your plan in the form of pithing needle which totally wrecks your narrow hate strategy.

To beat oath I think all one needs is remora, repeal, top, and confidant. I play iona oath a lot lately and those are cards that I fear in combination. Remora hits hard since of course the oath player plays no creatures and repeal will keep putting oath back into their hand for virtual time walks while confidant, repeal, and top dig for critical mass to combo out or simply establish superior control position and counter oath and win with confidant and token beats. Remora is really the corner pin of a good anti-oath strategy and the card also hammers on other decks really well, from what I hear.

[islanderboi10]

Up here in washington, the trap has been played a few times.  When I played against a deck that ran it, I always would duress it first, or play with Force back up.

When I was talking to a friend of mine about TPS(Before I built it) I asked about the card and he simply said (not exact quote)"The trap is like playing around stifle, a smart combo player will have duress'd or have Force back up when playing around it."

Now I know that you sometimes just have to go all out, and run into it, which I have.  Sometimes you just have to play around it.  But the point I am trying to make is, I treat the trap like Stifle. Sometimes you just run into, most of the times I have duress or Force back up.

In my opinion, the card isn't very hard to play around.

I really have to disagree.  Just after Zendikar was released I was testing against my teammate Brian Demars ((ForestsFailedYou) who has, what 4 Vintage Worlds top 8s?), and I was playing TPS.    We played like 20 games, and several times Mindbreak Trap got me.  It's not at all like playing around Stifle.   Stifle can't remove your Yawgmoth's Bargain from game when your opponent has one card in their hand and are tapped out.  If not for Mindbreak Trap I would have won a majority of our matches.   Mind you, I was also playing around it.  

The advantage against Tezzeret decks was already thin.   The printing of Mindbreak Trap makes TPS a dog to a top flight Tez pilot, or, uncomfortably close to even.   If you can't  have a solidly favorable game one, then I see no reason to play TPS.    This is coming from someone who is a TPS expert, and most the people playing TPS in the states have been using the list that I made standard last fall, with minor tweaks.  

I'm not sure what to do... Xantid Swarm, Sadistic Sacramnet, etc.  These are all options that can be explored.   But I don't have the time or the inclination to do so at the moment.  I'd like someone else to start winning with TPS and show me that TPS is worthwhile.   Can TPS top 8?  Definitely.  

But making Top 8 should rarely be the goal of any tournament goer.   I just don't see TPS breaking into the top 4 or top 2, let alone winning tournaments right now.  

If not for Mindbreak Trap, I would be playing TPS in tournaments right now, using this list: (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17980_So_Many_Insane_Plays_The_Perfect_Storm_Revisited.html ).

For the record I did top 4 at this tournament. The card was played against me in almost every tez and Oath match up (3 I think, out of 5 rounds) and I ran into it one time, where I wasn't prepared (I ended up winning due to a topdeck).  I believe that Duress and Force, mostly Duress, can fix the problem.  Although, you are right, it is a hard card to play around.  And to be truthful, I believe I would have top 2'd if I didn't draw dead in the semi-finals.  The guy drew the nuts both games, but thats vintage. 

What I am trying to say is, the card is definetly bad and hard to play around it, BUT you can play around it. Duress has been so good against it, and as I have said, a TPS player would play duress, usually more than once, when setting up the combo. I understand that it is hard to do so, but it is great when you do.  In fact, I have also DT'd or VT'd for Duress to hit the card and combo off. 

But to agree, the card is hard to play against, but not unbeatable.

[beder]

Up here in washington, the trap has been played a few times.  When I played against a deck that ran it, I always would duress it first, or play with Force back up.

When I was talking to a friend of mine about TPS(Before I built it) I asked about the card and he simply said (not exact quote)"The trap is like playing around stifle, a smart combo player will have duress'd or have Force back up when playing around it."

Now I know that you sometimes just have to go all out, and run into it, which I have.  Sometimes you just have to play around it.  But the point I am trying to make is, I treat the trap like Stifle. Sometimes you just run into, most of the times I have duress or Force back up.

In my opinion, the card isn't very hard to play around.

As Steve, I strongly disagree with the comparison "stifle/mindbreak".

The main/huge/enormous difference being that :

- stifle has to be played at the end of the combo, on tendrils. But to get to the end of the combo, the tps player nearlys always went broken during the turn, thanks to one of his engines : yawgmoth will, bargain or mind's desire for instance. As a consequence, he had access to many cards/tutors/mana, in order to find and play duress. That's why stifle does not shine so much against competent tps player : the problem is not tendrils, it is the cards that fuels the engine or the engines itselves.

- mindbreak is a little bit different, it counters the engine (all those engines are generally played after several spell - ritual, artifact, bounce, ....), the engine that could have helped you finding the duress. Even better, it counters the one engine that is generally the best answer to counters => mind's desire. Not too bad...

That's totally different and it is a lot more difficult to play around, even for a competent tps player.

[voltron00x]

Mindbreak Trap is obviously very good against TPS.  There shouldn't be any doubt there.  It is better than Stifle, since it can be played for 0 mana.

The question is, are people actually playing Mindbreak Trap?  Let's ignore the first 30 days after Zen, because people always want to try out shiny new toys.  With TPS making up such a small part of the metagame, why would people bother to carry Mindbreak Trap?  I know that Vroman Oath tends to SB a few, but I haven't seen many Tezz players running it lately (outside of, again, a few that wanted to just "try it out" right when Zen came out).

My intent is to meet up with Nick Coss this week and get the decklists from the Philly Open IV to see the total count of Mindbreak Traps in the entire field. 

The fact that Mindbreak Trap exists doesn't invalidate TPS.  Its sort of like saying "I can't play Oath because Gargadon and True Believer are in the format - I tested against them and can't beat them consistently!"  That might be true, but unless people are playing those cards, you're just beating yourself by choosing not to play a deck that's well-positioned.

[Marske]

@Voltron00x,
I'm not one for one line posts that don't say a lot, but you actually took the words right out of my mouth. I had a post lined up with almost that exact same statement in it at home waiting for me to spell check it and submit. GG, sir.

[Smmenen]

Mindbreak Trap is obviously very good against TPS.  There shouldn't be any doubt there.  It is better than Stifle, since it can be played for 0 mana.

You said this before, and it's a little bit confusing.

The reason Mindbreak Trap is better than Stifle isn't because Trap is free -- it's because it's a counterspell.

Stifle is not very good against TPS because it's narrow.     It doesn't counter a spell.

Mindbreak Trap can counter Tinker, Memory Jar or Yawgmoth's Bargain, let alone Tendrils or MInd's Desires.  

The question is, are people actually playing Mindbreak Trap? 

The folks playing The Deck in my metagame are playing them maindeck.   For example, Brian DeMars played 2 maindeck at the Meandeck Open.  

Also, tons of folks have them in their sideboards.  

Marius asked me a similar point:

Stifle can't remove your Yawgmoth's Bargain from game when your opponent has one card in their hand and are tapped out.  If not for Mindbreak Trap I would have won a majority of our matches.   Mind you, I was also playing around it.  

True, but if you're just throwing Rituals into Bargain out their how is this worse then getting it Forced? This example seems rather unclear, was there a counter battle in which you lost because of the trap? If so how is this worse then losing a counter battle because they had double Force / Misdir? If you lost because you just threw the Bargain into his one card hand thinking the coast was clear, then it's possible just bad beats. It could have easily been a Mana Drain or Spell Pierce or Mana leak at that point, I don't see how the trap factors into this at all.

[/quote]

I thought I already explained the situation:

My opponent is tapped down.   They have just one card in their hand.

I go:

Mox, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Bargain.  Them: Mindbreak Trap.  

Me: I lose.  

Let's ignore the first 30 days after Zen, because people always want to try out shiny new toys.  With TPS making up such a small part of the metagame, why would people bother to carry Mindbreak Trap?  I know that Vroman Oath tends to SB a few, but I haven't seen many Tezz players running it lately (outside of, again, a few that wanted to just "try it out" right when Zen came out).

My intent is to meet up with Nick Coss this week and get the decklists from the Philly Open IV to see the total count of Mindbreak Traps in the entire field. 

The fact that Mindbreak Trap exists doesn't invalidate TPS.  Its sort of like saying "I can't play Oath because Gargadon and True Believer are in the format - I tested against them and can't beat them consistently!"  That might be true, but unless people are playing those cards, you're just beating yourself by choosing not to play a deck that's well-positioned.

Of course not.  But it's seeing alot of play around here.  

[voltron00x]

Some of what you said just points out the regional differences inherent in today's Vintage metagame.  Storm just ran rampant at the Dutch Champs tournament, for example. 

Re: Mindbreak Trap, I know what you're saying - but the fact that its a Counterspell doesn't make it better than Stifle on its own, either.  Its the fact that it can counter (and Exile, no less) any card AND nerf all Storm copies off the stack AND, most importantly, that it costs zero.  Other cards can do the first two things (minus the Exile part, at least to my knowledge) but there is no other card that can do it for free.

[Smmenen]

Some of what you said just points out the regional differences inherent in today's Vintage metagame.  Storm just ran rampant at the Dutch Champs tournament, for example. 

Re: Mindbreak Trap, I know what you're saying - but the fact that its a Counterspell doesn't make it better than Stifle on its own, either.  Its the fact that it can counter (and Exile, no less) any card AND nerf all Storm copies off the stack AND, most importantly, that it costs zero.  Other cards can do the first two things (minus the Exile part, at least to my knowledge) but there is no other card that can do it for free.

The critical difference between Mindbreak Trap and Stifle is not the mana cost though.   The marginal difference between 'U' and '0' for the effect is really not that significant.   Several times you stated that MDT is better than Stifle because it costs 0.   Just clarying that that's not the critical difference. 

[voltron00x]

In the example you cited, where Bargain was countered, wasn't the key point that it cost 0 AND counters a spell?  He was tapped out with one card.  No other card works in that situation except for Pact of Negation, if he has 5 mana available for his next upkeep.  You say the critical part is that it counters a spell - if it didn't cost zero, he couldn't have played it at all from that board position.  I don't see how you seperate the two.

If he has one mana available, any counter that costs one (like Spell Pierce or possibly Force Spike depending on the additional mana you had available) would've done the same thing.

[Smmenen]

In the example you cited, where Bargain was countered, wasn't the key point that it cost 0 AND counters a spell?  He was tapped out with one card.  No other card works in that situation except for Pact of Negation, if he has 5 mana available for his next upkeep.  You say the critical part is that it counters a spell - if it didn't cost zero, he couldn't have played it at all from that board position.  I don't see how you seperate the two.

I'm not separating the two.  Both are important (altough I think that the broader effect is he more important element), but you only cited one every time you mentioned it.  You said:

It is better than Stifle, since it can be played for 0 mana.

I'm just saying that it's better than Stifle also because it has a broader effect.  

If he has one mana available, any counter that costs one (like Spell Pierce or possibly Force Spike depending on the additional mana you had available) would've done the same thing.

He may very well have had one mana, to be honest.  I don't remember the details at this point.  But I had enough mana to pay off a Spell Pierce.  

[voltron00x]

I don't disagree.  I wasn't trying to make a definitive or comprehensive statement about Mindbreak Trap.  Someone above had compared the two cards.  The ability to tap out and still have counter back-up in addition to Force of Will is very significant and one of they key benefits of the card when comparing to something like Stifle, which requires U available and isn't as broad.

[Iron_Chef]

I saw Voltron's post about wondering how many Mindbreak Traps were present at the 68 person Philly Open this past weekend, and because I have the decklists I decided to go see.

There were 11 people out of 68 who played Mindbreak Trap in their sideboard; 0 people played it Maindeck.  28 total Mindbreak Traps out there in the field.  There were only two decks who played a full 4 in the board, and one was Goblins (one hell of a surprise).  At this point it doesn't look like enough people are playing Mindbreak Trap for it to be a concern.  I don't think it's the end of TPS as we know it.  I'm actually sleeving that deck up as I type this.

[Smmenen]

I saw Voltron's post about wondering how many Mindbreak Traps were present at the 68 person Philly Open this past weekend, and because I have the decklists I decided to go see.

There were 11 people out of 68 who played Mindbreak Trap in their sideboard; 0 people played it Maindeck.  28 total Mindbreak Traps out there in the field.  There were only two decks who played a full 4 in the board, and one was Goblins (one hell of a surprise).  At this point it doesn't look like enough people are playing Mindbreak Trap for it to be a concern.  I don't think it's the end of TPS as we know it.  I'm actually sleeving that deck up as I type this.

Just a clarfication: I was not suggesting that MBT is the "end of TPS" as we know it.  I was simply suggesting that it has negatively impacted TPS, and is a deterrent to playing TPS. 

 You might say: only 11 players out of 68 played MBT, but that's over 16% of the field.   If you are playing a deck that works on small margins, that can be the difference between making top 8 and not. 

[Iron_Chef]

Just a clarfication: I was not suggesting that MBT is the "end of TPS" as we know it.  I was simply suggesting that it has negatively impacted TPS, and is a deterrent to playing TPS. 

 You might say: only 11 players out of 68 played MBT, but that's over 16% of the field.   If you are playing a deck that works on small margins, that can be the difference between making top 8 and not. 

I didn't mean to imply that you were; there was a lot of discussion regarding TPS being successful as an archetype when Mindbreak Trap was spoiled.  There is no doubt in my mind that a skillful TPS pilot can win matches where Mindbreak Trap is present, especially since many players were only playing it as a 1 or 2 of.  I'm not scared of a hate card that is only present in 16% of the players in a field.  If 16% of the field played Ichorid hate, how would you feel as an Ichorid player? Granted, if you are playing a tournament match against a player who is on par with you as far as skill level goes, is familiar with the TPS matchup, and has a playset of Mindbreak Traps post board, then that is certainly going to be a tougher matchup for you then with a different hate card.

[islanderboi10]

But why would you run a spell, such as bargain, into the trap?

I understand that the Trap and Stifle are nothing alike.  What I was trying to make is I play against them almost all the same.  Which is to run duress.  Sometimes, you have to run spells into it.  It is more, I guess, like playing around a counterspell.  If that makes sense.  I find myself baiting against the trap sometimes.  But like I have said, I like to run Duress out there a lot more. expecially when you can anticipate or even have the feeling of them having the trap.

I know, though, it isn't the end of TPS, and I understand the card is hard to deal with.  That was just how I did deal with it. It takes a lot to set up against it sometimes too.

[Smmenen]

But why would you run a spell, such as bargain, into the trap?

Lol.  Why would I play Bargain into a Trap?    Because, clearly, I didn't think he had it.    

As a TPS pilot, I generally have a sense for my opponent's resistance.    I managed to bait out all of his other countermagic, and he was left with only one card in his hand, tapped down, and I think he only runs 1 Trap maindeck.   of course you go for it.