Bloodghasted Ichorid Primer- Looking to the future

[Adan]

Alright, to add something different to the thread, I'd liek to show you my current list of BGhast Dredge:

// Lands
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    1  Dakmor Salvage
    4  Undiscovered Paradise
    4  City of Brass
    2  Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
    4  Bloodghast
    3  Golgari Thug
    2  Ichorid
    4  Narcomoeba
    1  Flame-Kin Zealot
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    1  Cephalid Sage
    3  Fatestitcher

// Spells
    4  Bridge from Below
    4  Cabal Therapy
    3  Dread Return
    4  Serum Powder
    4  Unmask

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Chain of Vapor
SB: 4  Darkblast
SB: 4  Nature's Claim
SB: 1  Gemstone Mine
SB: 1  Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1  Woodfall Primus

This pile obv. neglects the Sharuum Engine for the more conventional DR package and more disruption (i.e. Unmask). I still play 2 Ichorids to raise the count of the recurring critters to 10 (accordings to my math knowledge, you should be hitting 1 with every Grave-Troll Dredge on average... mathematically speaking, thus very theoretical, i know), but the mor eimportant aspect is to be a bit more resilient against Extirpate.

I'm actually tinkering with this build for some time now and meadbert's SB suggestion really helped to improve the 75, but I'm still not firm in how to board with it as the metagame is pretty confusing at the moment (I've lost and won against everything from Traps, Xtirpates, Jailers, Crypts, Relics, Wastelands, Magus of the Moon, Mogg Fanatics, Ravagers, man, even HEAP DOLLS!).

Could this be the right approach for g2?:

- 3 Stitcher
- 2 Ichorid (they come in again if I see Xtirpates)
- 3 Golgari Thug (we exchange them for Darkblast, so it's okay, Ichorids are out anyway)
- 1 Dakmor Salvage (see Thug reasoning, replaced with a 11th 5color Land)
- 1 Dread Return
- 4 Unmask

+ the whole SB except for Woodfall Primus

Reasoning: I did this with older Dredgebuilds, the idea was to to side out the disruption (Chalice, Lines and Unmasks back then) to maintain speed and hate the hate as much as possible since you are on the draw.

In case you should lose g2:

- 3 Stitcher
- 2 Ichorid
- 3 Golgari Thug
- 1 Dakmor Salvage
- 2 Dread Return
- 1 Cephalid Sage
- 1 FKZ
- 1 Unmask

+ The whole SB except Primus (he's more of a Anti MUD/Stax slot, I also thought about Ingot Chewer instead of it or this new big guy, Terastodon).

Would you guys agree with these plans? Is there something I could do better or differently? Is there an alternative to siding out 1 Unmask for the g3 plan? YOu really want one on the play, that's wh yI'd like to maintain 4 of them g3.

What could I do if the opponent reveals me Extirpates g2 , meaning I'd have to side the Ichorids in again?

This should not sound like "Yo guys, I have no clue how to SB with my own build", but I'd like to optimize my plan and maybe correct myself as my train of thought might not be the optimal one etc. I hope you guys can point me to the right direction.

[Razvan]

I am not certain I understand why people would use the Woodfall Primus, or even Terastodon (not sure which is better), over Angel of Despair? Platinum Angel, Iona on blue and such are great threats. What non-creature permanents are a real high threat to kill anyway? Time Vault seems the likely culprit, but again, Nature's Claim answers that. I could be wrong, but anyway.

Also, I wouldn't keep Cephalid Sage or FKZ in G2 (or even G3, although I can see you trying to combo out quickly if you can estimate the hate to not be great). I would definitely keep in Dakmor Salvage however.

[wiley]

Quoting from the outdated discussions in the old manaless thread:

Primus is worth consideration, you just have to think of where it shines/sucks.  It shines against lands, chalice @ 1, spheres (to a lesser extent), and smokestacks.  It sucks against welders and utility creatures like salvagers, platz and bob.

...

Compared to angel it is better when destroying noncreature permanents, blocks better against big creatures, still has a form of evasion (albeit one that runs a risk of removing your bridges) and has a bigger body.  Unfortunately it doesn't meet the one condition that angel is typically there for, removing platz from play.  This means angel automatically better than primus.

The other things that primus helps against are key, vault and oath.  I'm sure there are others too though.  The biggest thing is that you can get 2 uses out of primus w/o using 2 dread returns.  With the lack of plat angels running around and the tools that are already inherent in the deck to fight back against oath I think it can make a very good dr target for more defensive/controlling dredge decks (something that I have always pushed for).

[sorcutt]

Adan, I like your mainboard list a lot.  If you're running the Flamekin win, Sphinx of Lost Truths is a strict upgrade from Cephalid Sage.  Cutting the Sharuum engine is mainly a personal preference.  I've been running the Flamekin engine lately because it frees up slots for Ichorids and Unmasks in the mainboard, which are both very strong in games 2+3 (Unmask is obviously better g3 than g2 because you're almost always on the play in g3 if you win g1 and lose g2). 

Your sideboarding strategy is slightly off.  Side out G2:
-4 Unmask is correct
-1 Dakmor is correct
-3 Fate is correct
-1 Flame kin
-1 Sage
-2 Dread Return = you should be taking out the DR package because your opponent’s disruption package is going to render it useless anyway.  If you decide on keeping Terastadon in then that would be okay.  I always keep 1 DR in because returning a Grave Troll is usually enough in games 2+3.
-2 Thug = leave one in for added dredges + Ichorid fodder, you'll need it
-1 Bloodghast = worse in games 2+3 than Ichorid

Side in g2:

Whole board

Changes for game 3 (assuming you're on the play)

Keep in the Unmasks
-3 Darkblast
-1 Chain if you know they're not running Leyline or just  -4 Darkblast if they're not running Jailer

Those suggestions are for your current sideboard.  Obviously some situations will change up your decisions, but that is a good template to go by.  My board looks very different from yours:

4x Nature's Claim
3x Ingot Chewer
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Wispmare
3x Darkblast
1x Contagion

Mainboard I've been running a 3/3 Bloodghast/Ichorid split and I’m really liking it.  I think I'm going to cut the Flamekin kill and try out 2x Terastodon.  He's just fucking nutty.  He can blow up 3 permanents, blow up your own critters if you need more zombies with Bridges your graveyard, and any combination in between.  Correct me if I’m wrong but the tokens your opponents get don't even remove your own bridges if they die.  If Rich Shay backs it in Oath, it has to be testable at least.  The way I see it, if you nuke 3 permanents and you still lose a game of Magic, you're either retarded or have god-awful luck.

[Stormanimagus]

Mainboard I've been running a 3/3 Bloodghast/Ichorid split and I’m really liking it.  I think I'm going to cut the Flamekin kill and try out 2x Terastodon.  He's just fucking nutty.  He can blow up 3 permanents, blow up your own critters if you need more zombies with Bridges your graveyard, and any combination in between.  Correct me if I’m wrong but the tokens your opponents get don't even remove your own bridges if they die.  If Rich Shay backs it in Oath, it has to be testable at least.  The way I see it, if you nuke 3 permanents and you still lose a game of Magic, you're either retarded or have god-awful luck.

When Terastodon enters the battlefield, you may destroy up to three target noncreature permanents. For each permanent put into a graveyard this way, its controller puts a 3/3 green Elephant creature token onto the battlefield.


Terastodon will not be blowing up any creatures.

[BruiZar]

Quoting from the outdated discussions in the old manaless thread:

Primus is worth consideration, you just have to think of where it shines/sucks.  It shines against lands, chalice @ 1, spheres (to a lesser extent), and smokestacks.  It sucks against welders and utility creatures like salvagers, platz and bob.

...

Compared to angel it is better when destroying noncreature permanents, blocks better against big creatures, still has a form of evasion (albeit one that runs a risk of removing your bridges) and has a bigger body.  Unfortunately it doesn't meet the one condition that angel is typically there for, removing platz from play.  This means angel automatically better than primus.

The other things that primus helps against are key, vault and oath.  I'm sure there are others too though.  The biggest thing is that you can get 2 uses out of primus w/o using 2 dread returns.  With the lack of plat angels running around and the tools that are already inherent in the deck to fight back against oath I think it can make a very good dr target for more defensive/controlling dredge decks (something that I have always pushed for).

You totally didn't give him a good answer. What are you going to blow up, vault AND key? If you blow up just the vault, you're winning anyway. In both cases, the only thing that can save him is a yawgmoth's will. And, how many oaths do you intend to blow up? More than 1? Atleast Angel of Despair can blow up non-iona creatures after the oath trigger. The only real reason to run Terastodon or Woodfall Primus is to try and mana screw your opponent out of the game and buying a turn or 2 with it. Other than that, I see no reason why Woodfall Primus or Terastodon are better.

[Razvan]

You totally didn't give him a good answer. What are you going to blow up, vault AND key? If you blow up just the vault, you're winning anyway. In both cases, the only thing that can save him is a yawgmoth's will. And, how many oaths do you intend to blow up? More than 1? Atleast Angel of Despair can blow up non-iona creatures after the oath trigger. The only real reason to run Terastodon or Woodfall Primus is to try and mana screw your opponent out of the game and buying a turn or 2 with it. Other than that, I see no reason why Woodfall Primus or Terastodon are better.

I also asked it poorly. It was a half-rhetorical question. The ability to kill creatures is paramount. You don't really ever need to kill 2 non-creature permanents in the same turn. I am aware of the possibilities of Primus, but I think Angel is far superior. I was simply worried that there was something I was missing... which I OFTEN do anyway.

[wiley]

You totally didn't give him a good answer. What are you going to blow up, vault AND key? If you blow up just the vault, you're winning anyway. In both cases, the only thing that can save him is a yawgmoth's will. And, how many oaths do you intend to blow up? More than 1? Atleast Angel of Despair can blow up non-iona creatures after the oath trigger. The only real reason to run Terastodon or Woodfall Primus is to try and mana screw your opponent out of the game and buying a turn or 2 with it. Other than that, I see no reason why Woodfall Primus or Terastodon are better.

Use your imagination some?  What if the opponent has vault and 1 black source?  Now you cut them off will too.  What if they have helm of obedience and a sphere? Now you can answer both and continue to play normally.  What if they have oath and vault in play.  Now you can cut off both lines of play.  It isn't like these happen often, but it isn't necessary to use him twice in 1 turn most of the time either. Much of the time the second use will either be a bonus or used later in the game when it can do more damage.

I know that in Voltron's build in his recent article there were other cards capable of fighting oath as well, so the only really present creature in the format (iona) has more than just one card to keep from ever having to see it.  Most other creatures we don't like are answered by darkblast or simply ignoring them.

Once upon a time when the main wasn't completely capable of stopping a maindeck plat angel or iona the argument that creature kill is paramount was valid.  Thanks to new printings this is no longer so cut and dry.  Again, the only two creatures that you care about and can't be killed by darkblast are Iona and platinum Angel, both of which are stopped by Nature's Claim.  Maybe you care about Sphinx of the Steel Wind?  If so you can race it easier than any other deck around.  I'm having a hard time thinking of any other big creatures you would need to kill, but I've been a little out of the loop lately so tell me if I'm wrong.

[Adan]

I think the suggestion to play Angel of Despair is okay, not because he can nuke creatures but due to the fact he's black. I've found myself Powder'ing the singleton Dread Return away during the g2 and g3s. AT least Angel can serve as Ichorid fodder while other creatures would be dead.

But at the monent, I'm testing Iona. I've never played with her, but with the information you get via Unmask and Therapy, she can really lock down the opponent. But I think I'm really going to replace the Woodfall Primus with a Ingot Chewer due to the lack of Dread Return. I also find Primus only amazing when I have at least 2 Dread Returns in my deck since he can then really wreck a ton of (noncreature) permanents and cut down the opponent's resources, but that's why I rather tend to ply Iona since she does it by her own AND is a faster clock than Primus.

Ah, by the way, the reason why I play Cephalid Sage is that it let's you keep a card. If you should ever be in the situation where you have 0 handcards, you can Dread Return the Sage, dredge 3 cards (one of them being Dakmor Salvage), discard the chaff, drop the Salvage and do more Bloodghast absurdities. But I guess this scenario will never occur as you are still activating Bazaar during the upkeep.

Terastodon is more something for Oath I guess, I actually don't want to screw my opponent but give him some tokens which will cost me my Bridges whereas Woodfall Primus can destroy as much as Terstodon and in combination with Therapy rips board- and handresources at the same time while spawning a bunch of tokens for me etc.

[Mith]

Following on Matt's excellent dredge advice and his recent article in SCG, I decided to give Dredge a shot at last Saturday's DHG tournament.

I played the following list and made Top 8 (4th or 5th from the rounds, I think):

4 City of Brass
2 Petrified Field
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

4 Serum Powder
4 Fatestitcher

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

4 Bridge From Below
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Nature’s Claim
4 Leyline of the Void

sideboard:
2 Nature's Claim
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Darkblast
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Unmask

In retrospect, the deck needs at least one Dakmor Salvage to landfall in the Bloodghasts mid-to-late game. Also, Petrified field was AMAZING all day vs. Wastelands...but I'd be hesitant to run more when decks like Tez and Oath dominate the field. If Fish starts to takeover the meta, then perhaps that number needs to go up.

Iona was a win-more card...and can probably get cut. She's nice, but you don't need her to win. Flamekin, on the other hand, wins when he comes into play...and is worth keeping. Fatestitcher sped the deck up considerably, which helped versus Vault/Key, Oath, and the MUD with Staff of Domination combo. The games I lost were to other decks winning the roll and comboing-out a turn before I killed them.

I didn't see another Dredge deck...so the Leylines where unused...but would have been clutch in that matchup.

Next time, I'm thinking:
-2 Gemstone Mine, +2 Petrified Field
-1 Iona, +1 Dakmor Salvage

I might also:
-4 Fatestitcher, +4 Chalice

[Ravager Sam]

I'd like to discuss the following change to the above deck:

-4 Leyline of the Void
-2 Dread Return Targets

+3 Sharuum
+1 Altar of Dementia
+1 Possessed Portal
+1 LED/Dread Return/Nature's Claim/etc

Is the sacrifice of speed worth the chance that is leyline?

[Mith]

Actually, that's what I had in the place originally.

I got rid of the Sharuum combo in place of the Leylines to ensure *some* first-game hate vs. other Dredge decks. Actually, the card wasn't bad first game vs. Tez and Shop. Granted it's almost-impossible to hard-cast for the deck...but Dredge is starting to become more popular and your chances of playing the mirror-match are decent.

[Adan]

Leyline is really a question of how many Dredge Decks are around. I'd stick to Unmask, especially in a Fatestitcher build. As long as the Dredgedecks don't run maindeck Leyline, you can still Unmask yourself on Turn 1 to dump a lot of stuff into your grave and the go nuts on Turn 2 with the usual Landrop-Bloodghast-Stitcher-Action.
The point I'm uncomfortable with is that Leyline is pretty dead in other matchups except for Shops and random Goblins.

[BruiZar]

There is another interesting card coming for us:

Pawn of Ulamog 1

Creature - Vampire Shaman   
Whenever Pawn of Ulamog or another nontoken creature you control is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you may put a 0/1 colorless Eldrazi Spawn creature onto the battlefield. It has "Sacrifice this creature: add  to your mana pool."
2/2

This could potentially get us out of spheres. The problem is that you need to dread return it so you probably can't get it into play with spheres in play, making it useless, but its still a card/mechanic to look out for in the next set Rise of the Eldrazi

[Adan]

This could potentially get us out of spheres. The problem is that you need to dread return it so you probably can't get it into play with spheres in play, making it useless

This.  

Something else, I have played in the local Vintage tourney with my list (see above) and snuck into Top8 with 2-3, then got got lucked away in the semifinals by Noble Fish.

Match 1 against Edrion Gawaran with Red Stax:

g1 I 1st Turn Bazaar into a 5color Land and 2nd Turn I do the usual Bloodghast,Stitcher-Brokeness with it.
g2 he mulled into oblivion because he apparently ran 4 Serum Poweders and 4 Leylines as Anti-Dredge tech.

2-0, 1-0-0

Match 2 against Alban Lauter with Iona Oath

Game 1 I just crush him with a giant Grave-Troll.
Game 2 he went 1st Turn Needle and Oath I believe and I die 2 Turns later with Reclamation on Will with Timetwister.
Game 3 I unmask and see 2 Oaths, a Force and a blue card and 2 lands. I pick the Force so 2nd Turn I can use my 2nd Bazaar to hit a moeba and a Therpay to rip his 2 Oaths. OBV. he topdecks a Needle out of nowhere and my plan is ruined. And so am I 2 turns later since I can't handle the oath.

1-2, 1-1-0

Match 3 against Oliver Salten with MUD

g1 I lose due to 1st Turn Waste, 2nd Turn Sphere, Sphere, 3rd Turn Karn etc. bla. because I played like a retard (lack of sleep etc.)
g2 I he dumps Spheres and then Wastes my Bazaar and drops 3 hatepieces.

0-2, 1-2-0

Match 4 against Andreas Neumann with UR Landstill

g1 he opens with Scalding Tarn, go. I usually Unmask AFTER I used bazaar and so I ran into Stifle-Waste on my Bazaar. Didn't see that coming. I Unmask him and see that he plays Landstill. Ok, cool, after 3 turns, I get to EOT-Discard and slowroll as his lone Mishra can't really race me. I win the game pretty slowly.

g2 he mulligans onto 5 without having much hate. I get to activate my bazaar once before it gets wasted, but the slowdredge wins again here.

2-0, 2-2-0

Match 5 against Rolf Schmidt with MUD

I really can't remember this one anymore, I just know that i won against him the first time in my life in a tournament. He usually has got insane draws with the usual Wastelands, Spheres and ton of hate backed up with a fattie. But this time I somehow won.
I just know that g1 a Fatestitcher was involved which tapped away a Karn to rush through his defense.
And game 3 I bounced a Karn EOT with Chain, then Therapie'd it away (hitting one additional Karn!) and so I took all his blockers since he couldn't animate anything.

2-1, 3-2-0 and Top8!

Quarterfinal against Oliver Salten again.

He wins the diceroll and starts with a 1st Turn Smokestack and Chalice0 in hope to wreck my Bazaar in my upkeep with that. I upkeep Dredge into a Bridge, a Moeba (which was basically the win here) and irrelevant stuff. I discard 2 additional Bridges, sac the Moeba to the Stack, get 3 tokens and Oliver realizes that his plan failed and scoops it up.

Game 2 was the most wierd game ever, he played a fuckload of Thorns and had 7 hatepieces while I had 6 lands and went on hardcasting Thugs, Imps and Moebas.
A Trike from his side in any situation would have been an instant loss for me, but his draws were like "land, land, hate, land, land, hate, land, sphere, hate, land sphere sphere, hate". And so a Stinkweed Imp hits him from 20 to 0.

Quote Oliver: "I'm really not upset, I am rather fascinated how the stochstics can fuck you right in the ass. Fascinating!"

2-0, 4-2-0

Semifinal against Harald David with Noble Fish.

g1 He stifles my bazar but doesn't waste it and so I go off with land, Stitcher, etc.

g2 he opens with a Relic, waste on my bazaar and Spell Pierces my hate-hate.

g3 was basically mine, I played around 3 Relics and perforated his hand with 2 Therapies. I just needed to recurr my Bloodghast and use a Therapy to spawn 4 tokens. he rips a Ancestral Recall into Land, meddling Mage and a unknown card. i think I misplayed here since I bazaared and ran straight into his Ravenous Trap instead of just dropping a land.
But on the other hand, I needed to dig into Ichorid to spawn tokens since MM shut off Therapies. I'm not sure whether I played correctly ot just scrubbed out.

1-2, 4-3-0 and out.

I end up being 4th, winning a City of Traitors. I've become slightly better with this kind of build, but I still have one question: How do you circumvent Ravenous Trap? That card gives me a headache like non other hatecard.

Random notes:

- I still need 4 foil Nature's Claim.

- Except for Oath, I had only Wasteland-matchups in which I had to DDD quite a lot of times. -> Does this qualify Pithing Needle as a sideboard card again to challenge Wastelands and thus protect Bazaar?

- Stupid topdecking costed me 2 games, so I'd like to test the blue Sideboard again (the one with Forces) -> has anyone experience with that?

- Ravenous Trap just blows, I have absolutely no clue how to circumvent that properly, you really can't act like the opponent has got a T-Crypt out everytime he draws a card.

- Vampiric Tutor is a great card even without having a Ancestral Recall in your 60. It finds you solutions or Bazaar/additional Bazaars or Paradise to trigger Bloodghast as much as you want postboard.

- Iona was absolutely dead in this meta, I should have rather played a Destroyer (Angel of Despair/Woodfall Primus/Terastodon, hell, I'd even play Woodripper). -> Legalize Uktabi Kong for Eternal! Ooor I'll test Magus of the Disk, it's basically a Serenity that can be DR'd.

[Valorale]

- Ravenous Trap just blows, I have absolutely no clue how to circumvent that properly, you really can't act like the opponent has got a T-Crypt out everytime he draws a card.

- Iona was absolutely dead in this meta, I should have rather played a Destroyer (Angel of Despair/Woodfall Primus/Terastodon, hell, I'd even play Woodripper). -> Legalize Uktabi Kong for Eternal! Ooor I'll test Magus of the Disk, it's basically a Serenity that can be DR'd.

Ravenous Traps is one of the Dredge hate cards that I feel grateful that I havnt run into much in my meta and at the same time have struggled with an appropriate strategy to combat it. The obvious answer is to use Cabal Therapy, remove it from their hand and then go off. This is easier to do if A) you have a CT in hand and B) you saw them use it already but those two scenarios dont always present themselves. Moreover CT to remove Trap usually means you need to alter your plan. You cant Bazaar during your upkeep or dredge during your drawphase unless its for dakmor.
What I have tried to alter my strategy for game 2 and 3 to keep a slower tempo, no super explosives turns that would guarantee me the win, be thoughtful about each decision to dredge, can I get there with what I have? This at least leaves you some juice to finish the job if they blow me out with a RT

Iona I have never really understood, it has always felt like win-more. 9 out of 10 times I would rather just return a FKZ and win the game that turn. You run the risk of Echoing Truth but in all my time playing dredge I think thats happened once?

[Adan]

Ravenous Traps is one of the Dredge hate cards that I feel grateful that I havnt run into much in my meta and at the same time have struggled with an appropriate strategy to combat it. The obvious answer is to use Cabal Therapy, remove it from their hand and then go off. This is easier to do if A) you have a CT in hand and B) you saw them use it already but those two scenarios dont always present themselves. Moreover CT to remove Trap usually means you need to alter your plan. You cant Bazaar during your upkeep or dredge during your drawphase unless its for dakmor.

Yeah I know that. I think I should just consider it bad luck. He had 2 lands and 2 handcards (Jitte and a Spell Pierce whcih I was able to pay for), ripping a Ancestral from the top into Land, MMage and Ravenous Trap was the perfect draw for him. If the Mage would have been any other card, sure, I'd have just drawn a card, dropped my land, flashbacked a Therapy on Trap, get tokens and anyway... just jerking off in his face but that way, it wasn't possible. Bummer. I could also have ripped Unmask from the top, that would also have been cool.

[Ravager Sam]

@ Valorale - Unmask is REALLY good against ravenous trap.  Before doing anything, game 2, if they haven't dropped any hate, just unmask

[nataz]

I know it hasn't be done since cookie monster style dredge was popular, but I wonder if Panthrazer is good enough to warrent looking at dragon breath + large creature again.

Pathrazer of Ulamog

Uncommon
Creature - Eldrazi
Annihilator 3 (Whenever this creature
attacks, defending player sacrifices three
permanents.)
Pathrazer of Ulamog can’t be blocked
except by three or more creatures.
9/9

too bad all the really excellent eldrazi have the auto shuffle effects.

[Adan]

I know it hasn't be done since cookie monster style dredge was popular, but I wonder if Panthrazer is good enough to warrent looking at dragon breath + large creature again.

Pathrazer of Ulamog

Uncommon
Creature - Eldrazi
Annihilator 3 (Whenever this creature
attacks, defending player sacrifices three
permanents.)
Pathrazer of Ulamog can’t be blocked
except by three or more creatures.
9/9

too bad all the really excellent eldrazi have the auto shuffle effects.

Might be okay for postboard games, but the question is whether this is not redundant to something that Dredge can already do by itself, i.e. Dread Return on a giant Golgari Grave-Troll.
In most of the cases he's bigger than pathrazer and even as a 6/6, he's still big enough to smash the opponent on the long run.
It requires a bit more resources to give him haste (DR on him, then a DR on FKZ), but the effect is the same, I#ve alreay won several games with that method when I was short on Bridges.

So the qustion is: Does Annihilator 3 make such a big difference? You might actually want to blow up certain permanents to seal the game. And that's where Terastodon/Angel/Woodfall Primus would be better at since the Pathrazer can't shut down certain lines of play. Even Iona would be better in such scenarios (locks down removal against Fishesque decks, prevents Tinker & Tezzeret topdecks against UB controlish piles, prevent topdeck Will as well etc.).

[Razvan]

Vengevine - 2GG

4/3 Haste

Whenever you cast a spell, if it's the 2nd creature spell you cast this turn, return this from your GY to the battlefield.

This is weak in vintage, but *maybe* could be ok in Legacy, since Bloodghast isn't really used. I mostly say this because they have a ton of those 1/1s for 1cc that discard and such, so having extra creatures that come back could be ok.

But as I said, I doubt anyone is crazy enough to play this in vintage.

[Ravager Sam]

Yeah, Razvan, if you're having an easier time casting two creature spells as opposed to removing a black card in your graveyard from the game or playing a land...you're doing it wrong.

[Adan]

Is it okay to start a Unmask vs. Leyline debate here?

My list (4th Place here.) plays 4 Unmask maindeck as disruption.
However, looking at the last top8 of our local tournament shows that I'm playing in a very Wasteland-heavy metagame, every decklist except for Alban's and mine run 4 Waste, 1 Strip.

Against these decks, I usually want to slowroll Ichorids and spawn tokens with Bridges, but they have solutions for that (Karn, Triskelion, Qasali Pridemage etc.), so running Leylines can probably fix that problem. The top8 also show that the metagame isn't really fast and the only way people can kill you pretty fast is a early and strong Will-turn which is disabled by Leyline.

It protects your Bridges against MUD/Stax and helps you to win the attrition wars very easily and against Oath, it shuts down the Oath-Reclamation-Will-Timetwister line of play.
Furthermore, Leyline steals you the mirrormatch (we had about 5 Dredge-players in out meta, but 3 of them ceased to play it. I guess there are 3 left total, so I don't know how significant that is, but the Turbodredge lists like mine are like a coinflip without Leyline, no kidding).

But on the other hand, I'd like to pick Stifles with Unmask before I do anything, I ran into Stifle-Waste 2 times at that tournament (this is pretty much for one event and it scares me!).
And more important, Dredge is ridiculous! People who are playing Dredge usually have to mulll aggressively, in g1 as well as in g2&3. Unmask punishes inconsistent/bad openers nearly the same way like Chalice does AND it helps me to combat Ravenous Traps postboard, so I actually don't want to neglect them.

I also take Pithing Needle into consideration again as a potential sideboardcard for my meta simply because it shuts off Wastelands and can do splash damage to Crypt/Relic and maybe even Sensei's Divining Top to prevent these "I hide my Trap on top"-shenanigans.

My plan is to maindeck Leylines and put Unmask into the SB. My Sideboard would then look something like this:

3 Darkblast
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
4 Unmask
1 Gemstone Mine

Thoughts?

[Ravager Sam]

I'd say to take out fatestitcher in a heavy wasteland meta.  Went to the PO and in 6 rounds I found myself unable to win g1 on t2 with sharuum dredge because of wastelands; half my matches were fish.  Thus, the fatestitchers in my yard were useless.

[Adan]

I'd say to take out fatestitcher in a heavy wasteland meta.  Went to the PO and in 6 rounds I found myself unable to win g1 on t2 with sharuum dredge because of wastelands; half my matches were fish.  Thus, the fatestitchers in my yard were useless.

I played my Dredge with maindeck Leyline on saturday at our local Vintage tournament in Darmstadt (Tobi should be posting the top8 during the next few days).

edit: Darmstadt Top8 here.

Short report:

Match 1 against Florian Klotz with UR Dreadstill.

g1 I feel safe, but then a Wasteland hits me and he plays a Dreadnought and stifles it. In the end I lose because I'm 1 life short.

g2 & 3 I still win because he decided to keep openers with a fast Nought instead of Wasteeffects and plays him right into my mass of hate (i.e. 8 Chain/Claim).

2-1, 1-0-0

Match 2 against Patric Hiness with Noble Fish

g1 he keeps a hand with an Ancestral Recall. He doesn't waste and I go off on Turn 2.

g2 I was basically just playing a Mox Sapphire. I destroyed his Relic and his T.Crypt and went off while he didn't draw anything useful.

2-0, 2-0-0

Match 3 against Ralf Natterer with UBG Repeal...Gifts...Draintendril s. Something like that.

g1 Turn 2 kill.

g2 circumvented a fuckload of hate and perforated his hand but he still ripped a Ravenous Trap which raped me afterwards.

g3 was a pure attrition war which I won on the long since I was in a situation where I could even circumvent Ravenous Trap pretty good thanks to Therpies, BGhasts and Paradise.

2-1, 3-0-0

Match 4 against Florian Scholz with Noble Fish

I.D., 3-0-1

Match 5 against Max-Wilhelm Bruker with MUD

I.D., 3-0-2, 3rd Place and in!

Top8 Quarterfinal: Philip "Phele" Stirm with Iona TezzOath

g1 I open with Leyline and he plays a Oath on Turn 2 without Orchard. I dredge a Moeba but decide not to put it in. There was also a Timetwister involved from his side, but I can't remember whether he played it before or after that happened, however, I had Leyline and Bazaar out.
After the Twister i was able to spawn a 13/13 GGT with 3 tokens. Due to leyline he decides not to use Oath and the Tezzeret he tutored was redered useless by my boardposition. The turn after that I was able to do lethal damage with FKZ.

g2 I keep a solid 7 card hand with bazaar, city, chain, he opens with a Mox, land, a Leyline and Force. I try to Chain it, but he uses the Force. I activate my Bazaar and dig into Nature's Claim which resolves. He plays a Needle one turn afterwards and I rip another Claim i believe. He's screwed and I win.

2-0, 4-0-2

Top8 Semifinal: Max-Wilhelm Bruker with MUD

g1 I get my Bazaar wasted, but due to Leyline and Ichorid, I get more and more tokens and he goes down on the long run although I was under pressure.

g2 I played like a retard, I messed up something but I can't tell what. I just remember that I had to decide whether I sac Leyline of Bazaar to a Smokestack. It may sound ridiculous, but I think I should have sacced Bazaar and slowdredge further which isn't bad as long as my Bridges are protected.
But I sacced Leyline and then a Trisk took me my Bridges. I can't do much pressure and a topdeck Relic into another Trisk delivers me the coup de grace.

g3 I mull into oblivion and get beaten down by a Mishra and 2 Trisks within 6 turns.

1-2, 4-1-2 and I end up being 4th. The second time I fizzle right before I am in the range of Byes for BOM. But this deck is still a house, it's crazy.

Notes:

- I made the correct meta call, although I didn't play a mirrormatch, there were 2 other Dredgedecks sucking at the lower tables. It also cuts down a fast Willturn and disables Oath's fuznction as a combo enabler.

- Wastelands still suck and I still think I should play Pithing Needle to fix that.

- Spell Pierce turn Cabal Therapy into a guessing game. Definitely something to consider.

- Ravenous Trap sucks, too, but isn't played as frequently as I thought and I learned how to deal with it (I also did a lot of Sb maneuvers with Unmask)

- Dredge is ridiculous. Period. To be honest, the format would be a lot healthier if Dredge would not exist. But I love it.

Next step would be BOM in Annecy. I guess I should indeed cut Fatestitcher for my meta, but for something big such as Annecy, I'd definitely run Fatestitcher. If someone doesn't Waste on Turn 2, you will most likely just jerk off in his face.

[Mith]

- Wastelands still suck and I still think I should play Pithing Needle to fix that.

This is why I advocate Petrified Field...Dredge doesn't need so many multi-colored lands pre-board. It's not an ideal answer, but it works for all intensive purposes.

How were the maindeck Ichorids?

[Adan]

This is why I advocate Petrified Field...Dredge doesn't need so many multi-colored lands pre-board. It's not an ideal answer, but it works for all intensive purposes.

And that's also the reason why I find Matt Elias' build better with every tournament I play. Except for the Nature's Claims maindeck, they are unnecessary for g1 imho.

How were the maindeck Ichorids?

I got my Bazaar wasted several times and this is where he shines, he spawns more and more tokens while you slowdredge fruther etc. and gets you games which couldn't be won if you would not run him (sometimes you can't do a additional landdrop to recurr Bloodghast, if the opponent wastes your Bazaar then, Narcs are the only possibility to spawn tokens/significant pressure, if this scenario happens, you will most likely die without Ichorid). I am really tickled to squeeze a 3rd one somewhere into the 75, but this is really a space issue.

[Sobolev]

Posted this in another thread, was directed here.  I'm new to this whole scene so I don't know how much practical knowledge I can add, but I can guess and do some theoretical stuff!

Anywhere, here's the list I've started playing:

Creatures (26)
4x Bloodghast
2x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
3x Fatesticher
1x Flamekin Zealot
1x Terastodon
Enchantments (8)
4x Bridge from Below
4x Leyline of the Void
Artifacts (4)
4x Serum Powder
Sorcery (6)
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Dread Return
Instant (2)
2x Nature's Claim
Land (14)
4x Bazaar of Baghdada
4x Undiscovered Paradise
4x City of Brass
1x Petrified Field
1x Dakmor Salvage

Sideboard (15)
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Unmask
3x Darkblast
2x Gemstone Mine
2x Nature's Claim

Let me know what you think.  I will report anything I learn about this version, though I will probably not learn anything you don't already know >_>

[Adan]

I'd not play maindeck Nature's Claim, the only reason I see to play it there would be if you expect a fuckload of Dredge mirrors where you need to destroy opposing Leylines, but this basically never happens. If you wanto to use Nature's Claim preboard, you need a Bazaar, a land and that in your hand. The key point is, if you have Bazaar + Land in your opening hand, you will often just end up jerking off your opponent's face on Turn 2. Nature's Claim doesn't add anything to the preboard strategy.

I also wouldn't play Terastodon even though he's great with Leylines I lbelieve, but I prefer to go off with Cephalid Sage/Sphinx of Lost Truths. And running 3 Dread Returns will make sure you win more consequently (sometimes you also need 2 DRs to win when you are short on Bridges, in that case you need to look how many creatures you have and Dread Return a Troll and then the FKZ to give it haste).

My list is just:

- 1 Terastodon
- 2 Claim
- 1 Petrified Field

+ 1 Cephalid Sage
+ 1 Dread Return
+ 2 Gemstone Mine

Reasoning: 10 5color Lands maindeck allow you to go off on Turn 2 with Fatestitchers like very often. 3 Dread Return is the optimal number to hit at least one so you can either DR a FKZ to win now or DR a Sage to dig further for the FKZ. They also give you free space in the sideboard.

Cephalid Sage also has got a nice synergy with Dakmor Salvage. It happen very very seldom but when I played Unmask maindeck, I used up my handresources quite often and sat there with 0 handcards. In that case I Dread returned Cephalid Sage, dredge 2 Trolls, hit the Dakmor Salvage, dreded that one, discarded just the 2 Trolls, played the Salvage to do insane shit again. This is why I still play Sage over Sphinx.

In general my configuration supports the "win now!"-route better than yours. Your configuration is ported from Matt "voltron00x" Elias' Dredgebuild which does not play Fatestitcher and therefore can afford to play Petrified Fields, Claims and Darkblasts main as he is definitely neglecting speed for more consistency and harder disruption (Chalice!).

His build rather slowrolls and imho, you should not mash up these 2 concepts.

I still have to admit that I might cut Fatestitchers for the future as I am playing Wastelands very frequently in the last time and it's... annoying. Most of the time you can still win,l but it really slows you down like hell, so maybe I'll switch to a slower list like his', but after all, I still think it's better to play the "win now!" route.

My speculation is simple: I'll be playing this thing at a very big tournament quite soon and some people won't notice that I'm playing Dredge. If they miss to waste my Bazaar, I usually crush them on Turn 2. This circumstance will force them to mulligan more aggressively so their own gameplan can't be archieved anymore.
On the other hand, sideboarding maneuvers with Chalice and Unmask can get you the same effect.

I don't know, but I hope I was able to help you to distinguish between 2 concepts that are found here. And others, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! I feel a bit lonely in this thread, I know there are more Dredgers out there. :>

[Sobolev]

My list is just:

- 1 Terastodon
- 2 Claim
- 1 Petrified Field

+ 1 Cephalid Sage
+ 1 Dread Return
+ 2 Gemstone Mine

I agree on the Petrified Field, it drives me nuts and I hate it.  I like the addition of Sage.  I also am comfortable moving the Claims out of the maindeck.  I was a little nervous to not have any answer to main deck Leyline other than pray they don't draw it.  However, I like Terastodon so far, and enjoy bringing in to play.  I'm still not sure how much better I think he is than something like Primus, but in a couple games today I brought him in to play, destroyed my opponent's mana-base and killed my opponent the following turn.  I added in all of your suggestions but cut

-2 Claim
-1 Petrified Field
-1 Golgari Thug

And I'll test that tonight.

That being said, I've started to look in to Alters/Sharuum.  Is this type of kill still popular and considered effective?  Some of the posts in this thread are a little old, and I'm not sure how things have changed if at all.

Also, I see Ichorid is absent from some lists, but I like his 2 of in my deck.

Edit: Sage won me a game today, digging in to a fatesticher.  

Board plan lately:
-3 Fatesticher
-2 Dread Return
-1 Cephalid Sage
-1 Flame-kin Zealot

+4 Chain of Vapor
+3 Nature's Claim

Won through double t0 Leyline in a game, in order to win a match against TPS.  

Current List

Creatures (26)
4x Bloodghast
2x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Golgari Thug
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
3x Fatesticher
1x Flamekin Zealot
1x Terastodon
1x Cephalid Sage

Enchantments (8)
4x Bridge from Below
4x Leyline of the Void

Artifacts (4)
4x Serum Powder

Sorcery (7)
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Dread Return

Land (15)
4x Bazaar of Baghdada
4x Undiscovered Paradise
4x City of Brass
2x Gemstone Mine
1x Dakmor Salvage

Sideboard (15)
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Unmask
3x Darkblast
4x Nature's Claim