Bloodghasted Ichorid Primer- Looking to the future

[nineisnoone]

Hmmm.  Yeah, on second thought that's probably the correct play.   

[AmbivalentDuck]

Just as a quick observation, Sun Titan lets you grab Animate Dead -> Worldgorger Dragon.  This does stupid things with landfall triggers and gives you infi bazaar activations/mana.

[Adan]

Just as a quick observation, Sun Titan lets you grab Animate Dead -> Worldgorger Dragon.  This does stupid things with landfall triggers and gives you infi bazaar activations/mana.

Hm, that's rather stupid, you could do the same thing with the Reveillark Combo etc. I just see the problem that this will just consume too many slots and thus fail to work practically. It is a cool idea, though, maybe a Dragon-Dredge hybrid may be possible (but on the other hand, this still makes no sense to me since Dredge is definitely the best Bazaar-Engined Deck because it has less weaknesses than Dragon).

[AmbivalentDuck]

Grabbing two Bazaars sounds like it might be good...

[nineisnoone]

CIPT sucks though, otherwise I'd take this over Sun.  But by the time those first two lands untap, you can have 2 untapped lands with Sun.

[AmbivalentDuck]

CIPT sucks though, otherwise I'd take this over Sun.  But by the time those first two lands untap, you can have 2 untapped lands with Sun.

Missed CIPT

There's inevitably a stupid combo with this thing and Shelldock Isle, but it's "bigger" than just running Sun Titan.

[Adan]

It also isn't necessarily good because the Bazaars can also be milled into your grave even before you can DR that thing. Sun Titan is better.

[meadbert]

Grabbing two Bazaars sounds like it might be good...

This sounds most broken grabbing Glacial Chasm.  It still does not seem better than other options though.

[voltron00x]

Something to anticipate:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Force of Will
2 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
2 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Petrified Field

Sideboard:
4 Nature's Claim
4 Chain of Vapor
3 City of Brass
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Serenity
1 Ichorid


Is this better than what we're playing now?  No clue, but I can't wait to find out.  It should really punish people who rely overly on Tormod's / Relic / Rav Trap.  Access to FoW game 1 makes things interesting as well.

[nineisnoone]

I was actually about to post something about Leyline of Anticipation.  I don't know if I like your list (no Fatestichers or Sun Titan?)  But yes, I do think Leyline of Anticipation is good enough to maindeck in Ichorid.  With Force, I probably wouldn't bother running Chalice anymore. 

[voltron00x]

Chalice is insane. Playing chalice zero on the draw on opponents upkeep is even more insane.

[BruiZar]

chalice is sort of the reason to run leyline in dredge imo. Traditional Mana Dredge needs new consideration. Careful Study and Breakthrough have to be tested again, they just became instant.

Chalice gives you at least 2 turns before your opponent wins. By that time, you have already done it for him. The odds of having Leyline, Bazaar AND chalice in one hand is slim though, even if you´re running 4 of each.

[voltron00x]

chalice is sort of the reason to run leyline in dredge imo. Traditional Mana Dredge needs new consideration. Careful Study and Breakthrough have to be tested again, they just became instant.

Chalice gives you at least 2 turns before your opponent wins. By that time, you have already done it for him. The odds of having Leyline, Bazaar AND chalice in one hand is slim though, even if you´re running 4 of each.

Given serum powder and the ability to activate bazaar turn one, it definitely happens though.

[Neonico]

I would definatly play Unmask over Chalice of the void in a Leyline of Anticipation build of Ichorid.

[Troy_Costisick]

I would definatly play Unmask over Chalice of the void in a Leyline of Anticipation build of Ichorid.

Why?  Because you like depeleting your hand to almost nothing before your first turn?

[Neonico]

Simply because Chalice of the void stops nothing else than Tormod's crypt in game 2 and 3, where your disruption need to protect you from all the possible hate, where having acces to 8 force of will likes (Leyline+Unmask and 4 force of will) or 4 unmask + all your SB cards helps you deal with anything.... It's especially true considering that the harder hate to play against isn't the permanent hate, against which you have alot of solutions, but Ravenous trap.

I fail to see how i will deplete my hand playing unmask, you have so many black dead cards in your hand anyway when playing the deck.  I still play it for more than a year now, and i never had any problem to cast it.... All you need is Leylin, black card, unmask and bazaar, that doesn't change the problem. And unmask on the draw is still good if you don't get leyline, where chalice is just bad on the draw.

ANd i fail to see why Unmask is more useless than chalice. What do you try to do with CHalice ? Delaying you opponent to play a game-winning bomb before you win. What you can do with unmask ? Discarding the game winning bomb, which result in the exact same thing. Now, considering
the fact is that you will allmost allways win game 1 anyway, so there is absolutly no difference in stopping mana acceleration or unmasking the bomb in game 1, but unmask at instant or even sorcery speed is golden in game 2/3, giving you 8 outs to Trap instead of 4, and 10-11 outs to jailer instead of 6-7 (considering the standart 4 CoV, 2-3 darkblast sideboard)

And even if you consider the worst case scenario : facing a deck randomly playing Tormod's crypt Maindeck, both unmask and chalice stop it, so i still fail to see why i would play chalice over unmask in actual Ichorid lists, and it's even more true if i consider including the blue leyline.

[voltron00x]

Don’t take this the wrong way, I’m trying to be constructive here – your comments re: Chalice suggest a distinct lack of actual in-tournament time with and against the card., independent of any practical application of the card related to Leyline of Anticipation.

I lost two game 1s and two game 3s to Dredge last Saturday specifically because Chalice of the Void, taking away not my ability to play Tormod’s from my hand (although that is annoying, it didn’t come up) but b/c it took away either a) my ability to play Black Lotus from hand, or b) it took away my ability to replay Tormod’s and/or Lotus / Moxen / Mana Crypt from my graveyard using Yawgmoth’s Will.  It is exceptionally hard to beat a Dredge deck if they have Chalice in play, because it forces you to play at a much slower pace and prevents most Yawg Will nonsense.  This applies to post-board games too, especially b/c you will often have to mulligan to 5 or 6 to dig for hate cards, making your mana more vulnerable to Chalice.

Both of the new Leylines have interesting applications in Dredge: 

Blue:  lets you play Chalice 0 at instant speed, lets you play Unmask at instant speed, lets you play Breakthrough / Careful Study at instant speed, lets you respond to hate cards like Tormod’s / Relic / Rav Trap with instant speed Cabal Therapy and Dread Return, supports use of Force of Will main or post-SB

White:  prevents opponent from targeting you with specific hate cards (notably Tormod’s and Ravenous Trap, two of the most popular), prevents Gifts Ungiven, stops opponent from using Duress / Thoughtseize (although this is rarely relevant in this case), seriously impairs Oath’s and Storm’s ability to race by preventing Oath from activating and Tendrils from being able to target

Its really going to be interesting to see how these cards shake up Vintage Dredge.  I think at this point I’m particularly excited about the white one.

[Neonico]

Don’t take this the wrong way, I’m trying to be constructive here – your comments re: Chalice suggest a distinct lack of actual in-tournament time with and against the card., independent of any practical application of the card related to Leyline of Anticipation.

You're clearly wrong there.... I really playtest:Play alot of Ichorid matches lately.... But okay, i can accept to be the noob here

I lost two game 1s and two game 3s to Dredge last Saturday specifically because Chalice of the Void, taking away not my ability to play Tormod’s from my hand (although that is annoying, it didn’t come up) but b/c it took away either a) my ability to play Black Lotus from hand, or b) it took away my ability to replay Tormod’s and/or Lotus / Moxen / Mana Crypt from my graveyard using Yawgmoth’s Will.  It is exceptionally hard to beat a Dredge deck if they have Chalice in play, because it forces you to play at a much slower pace and prevents most Yawg Will nonsense.  This applies to post-board games too, especially b/c you will often have to mulligan to 5 or 6 to dig for hate cards, making your mana more vulnerable to Chalice.

The situations you describe just show the point i wanted to make....
In your example : Unmasking your Yaug will would have done exactly the same than having chalice in play to avoid replay your 0 CMC artefacts from your graveyard under yaugmoth's will.
If you read my post, i think that you could admit that i know what purpose chalice has in a dredge deck.... And i said that chalice slows your opponent while you win, but its as functionnal as unmasking the game winning bomb you delay with your chalice of the void.

Even in the first game you describe, if black lotus was the problem for your opponent, unmask could have take it away the exact same way as chalice avoids you to play it.... I don't get the point where your exemples are revelant to prove me wrong on this point.

[Killane]

Don’t take this the wrong way, I’m trying to be constructive here – your comments re: Chalice suggest a distinct lack of actual in-tournament time with and against the card., independent of any practical application of the card related to Leyline of Anticipation.

You're clearly wrong there.... I really playtest:Play alot of Ichorid matches lately.... But okay, i can accept to be the noob here

I lost two game 1s and two game 3s to Dredge last Saturday specifically because Chalice of the Void, taking away not my ability to play Tormod’s from my hand (although that is annoying, it didn’t come up) but b/c it took away either a) my ability to play Black Lotus from hand, or b) it took away my ability to replay Tormod’s and/or Lotus / Moxen / Mana Crypt from my graveyard using Yawgmoth’s Will.  It is exceptionally hard to beat a Dredge deck if they have Chalice in play, because it forces you to play at a much slower pace and prevents most Yawg Will nonsense.  This applies to post-board games too, especially b/c you will often have to mulligan to 5 or 6 to dig for hate cards, making your mana more vulnerable to Chalice.

The situations you describe just show the point i wanted to make....
In your example : Unmasking your Yaug will would have done exactly the same than having chalice in play to avoid replay your 0 CMC artefacts from your graveyard under yaugmoth's will.
If you read my post, i think that you could admit that i know what purpose chalice has in a dredge deck.... And i said that chalice slows your opponent while you win, but its as functionnal as unmasking the game winning bomb you delay with your chalice of the void.

Even in the first game you describe, if black lotus was the problem for your opponent, unmask could have take it away the exact same way as chalice avoids you to play it.... I don't get the point where your exemples are revelant to prove me wrong on this point.

The problem with relying on Unmask instead of Chalice in these situations is that you have to unmask at just the right moment to deal with the issue. YawgWin is often tutored for when needed and rarely just sitting in hand waiting. The unmask does nothign if Will isn't in hand- the Chalice cuts it off before they even draw it.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Unless the Leyline becomes ubiquitous, you can always Unmask in their draw phase.  Only Demonic puts it into their hand without giving you priority to nail it with Unmask.

That said...I effectively spend three cards to Duress you at instant speed?  That does not sound win.  Leyline of the Void still sounds like the better card.

[Killane]

Unless the Leyline becomes ubiquitous, you can always Unmask in their draw phase.  Only Demonic puts it into their hand without giving you priority to nail it with Unmask.

That said...I effectively spend three cards to Duress you at instant speed?  That does not sound win.  Leyline of the Void still sounds like the better card.

I agree. I think also that the white one has extremely strong possibilities. The blue one is cute and certainly powerful in Stax, but maybe the whiteone is better for dredge stopping Oath, Tendrils, Crypt, and Trap all with one card is pretty strong, plus they can't use Duress effects to deal with you anti-hate cards.

[Leooooh]

Hey

I think that the W Leyline will be a must in Ichorid SB. 4 cards that will strong against a lot of other decks!
We need to test it before saying anything, but at principle it will be excelent!

[AmbivalentDuck]

Sadly, that reduces effective Dredge hate to Yixlid and Leyline of the Void.  Double plus ungood.

[Killane]

Sadly, that reduces effective Dredge hate to Yixlid and Leyline of the Void.  Double plus ungood.

at least these are the best ones that actually shut the dredge deck down until they can deal with them, and aside form Chain, dredge doesn;t have a unified answer to these two cards.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Sadly, that reduces effective Dredge hate to Yixlid and Leyline of the Void.  Double plus ungood.

at least these are the best ones that actually shut the dredge deck down until they can deal with them, and aside form Chain, dredge doesn;t have a unified answer to these two cards.

Yet.

[Killane]

Sadly, that reduces effective Dredge hate to Yixlid and Leyline of the Void.  Double plus ungood.

at least these are the best ones that actually shut the dredge deck down until they can deal with them, and aside form Chain, dredge doesn;t have a unified answer to these two cards.

Yet.

I can't concieve of a printable 1 or 2 mana card that kills both creatures and 4 CMC enchantments. In fact, when I wrote my intial response I was trying to come up with an example card, but I could not come up with anything remotely balanced. If 3 CMC answers worked for Dredge, they would run Vindicate, which they do not.

[AmbivalentDuck]

A Wax//Wane variant for // that either gives -1/-1 until EOT or kills an enchantment seems printable.  Both are relatively weak effects that have a strictly better non-split variant in print.  (Erase and Darkblast)

[nineisnoone]

Chalice is insane. Playing chalice zero on the draw on opponents upkeep is even more insane.

TBH, I count the chance of opening Leyline + Chalice + on the draw to be a rather marginal.  I don't even really count it for much when I evaluate the card.

I consider Chalice to be better than Unmask, and in general to be an amazing card for dredge.  It's merely that I feel that with Leyline + Force, you could get away with not running it.  Chalice is a good card because it is good across many situations, but now that you are running Force you have a card that fills that generalist role.  I could still see running Chalice, but it would be for different reasons.

Sadly, that reduces effective Dredge hate to Yixlid and Leyline of the Void.  Double plus ungood.

at least these are the best ones that actually shut the dredge deck down until they can deal with them, and aside form Chain, dredge doesn;t have a unified answer to these two cards.

If you aren't worried about over exposing yourself to Chalice @ 1, I've always been a fan of running Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, and Demonic Consultation.  

Unless the Leyline becomes ubiquitous, you can always Unmask in their draw phase.  Only Demonic puts it into their hand without giving you priority to nail it with Unmask.

That said...I effectively spend three cards to Duress you at instant speed?  That does not sound win.  Leyline of the Void still sounds like the better card.

I agree. I think also that the white one has extremely strong possibilities. The blue one is cute and certainly powerful in Stax, but maybe the whiteone is better for dredge stopping Oath, Tendrils, Crypt, and Trap all with one card is pretty strong, plus they can't use Duress effects to deal with you anti-hate cards.

Hmmm... interesting.  I thought it was rubbish at first, but it does sound really good.  It also shuts down Therapy in the mirror amusingly enough.

[Killane]

A Wax//Wane variant for // that either gives -1/-1 until EOT or kills an enchantment seems printable.  Both are relatively weak effects that have a strictly better non-split variant in print.  (Erase and Darkblast)

Good point. I had not considered split cards.

[Adan]

Did someone already spot the new white Leyline?

Leyline of Sanctity
   2ww
Enchantment    Rare
If Leyline of Sanctity is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.

You can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.

In compairison to the shenenigans of the blue Leyline, this is really sick.