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Author Topic: [FREE Article] The Return of The Deck!  (Read 32191 times)
MaxxMatt
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« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2009, 10:54:22 am »

I think that in your list you lack the stirpmine.

Nah, look carefully.

Quote
And timetwsiter is another card that I'm not sure of including in this building, since one of your strategies is to reduce the table resources of your oponent, and refilling his hands is not a good way to go, is only for a desperate moments, and I rather prefer to reinforce your strategy than doin it, ok you can win with regrowth/fire-ice/time walk/timetwister.

I bolded three part of your sentence because they are all, as expected, based upon:

1) Misconception of Timetwister usage
2) Low level game experience
3) Poor test

Timetwister can be used in desperate moments
Timetwister can give premium hands to opponents
Timetwister can restart game/board/hand/ situations

It can because, on chart, it is a symmetrical card
In the end, playing with Timetwister in this deck for years, mastering the timing, compelling why I can resolve it positively for me with TheDeck, I will assure you about Timetwister being completely asymmetrical when played at support of The Deck strategies.

If you can't afford to apply pressure on opponents' board, you are going to leave to Timetwister his completely simmetrical effect.
But...
you eat lands ( usually fetched ) with your Strips
you eat moxen and artifacts with your Monkeys
you grow your board position while opponents usually remain in a bad shape.
Then...
you are holding Timetwister among your spells.
you have a little grave, you have cards in hand, you have at least 10 or more cards on board.
opponents have a large grave, maybe they may or not may have cards in hand, they usually had fewer cards on board, than you.

How can you state SAFELY that Timetwister hands' refilling will be specular?
It CAN'T be symmetrical at all.
You'll shuffle QUALITY spells: tutors, counterspells, some fetchlands, broken countered or used spells
They'll mix QUANTITY spells all together again: lands, moxen, critters, some countered spells and so on.
THEY will restart the game while YOU'll abuse of bombs with an improved quickly effect over the game.
While, they'll possibly "set up and win", you are "just set up" and you'll only benefit from quality spell BETTER than during the initial turn of the game.

A better board position will transform itself into a better quality on draw, too.
Putting a comparison with opponents, situation, EVEN if he reshuffled goodies and draw 7 cards such as you, you are going to abuse of them FREQUENTLY BETTER
This only one among different Key reasoning behind the choice of playing Timetwister in TheDeck.

On a secondary level, I can take into account "relation with other specific cards" in order to put more weigth on my inclusion
*  You play strong and continous grave hate effects. Coupling them with Timetwister can fuel EVEN BETTER than described, spells recursion for you and not for your opponent
*  You are going to abuse of your grave in different ways:  Regrowth for direct single cards, Y.Will for the win and Timetwister for existing longer and balanced games.
*  You are in need of spells protection for your board: no Drain or FoWs can last forever. Regrowth Timetwister every time you need and continue protecting your board position in an aggressive way.
*  You can be quite in loop with Timetwister-Mindtwist-Regrowth: this is astonishingly old.style but still powerfull because of the high density of threats and protections among your reshuffled spells turn after turn, play after play.
*  You should be aware of the come back of MASSIVE discards effects played by a lot of different decks: combo ( SadSac, TPS, ANT, TES ), control.combo ( Storm, Oath, Tezz ), aggro control ( fish or bant or similar things ): you need, IMHO, an additional tools for spells recursion WHEN they are putting so much pressure on your hand to deplete spells after spells with discard effects.
*  Be controlled and creative about Timetwister and it will reward you, playing TheDeck, more and more than it will punish you with unlucky draws.

MAxxMAtt
« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 04:02:42 am by MaxxMatt » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2009, 12:34:26 pm »

I think that in your list you lack the stirpmine.

Nah, look carefully.


Ok I see it with the moxes, sorry.


1) Misconception of Timetwister usage
2) Low level game experience
3) Poor test

I agree with you, I haven't use this card apart from TPS opr other combo buildings, and since in my meta in the last times they were a lot of combo decks, it doesn't seem a good include. I will try it, by I don't have much time for a good testing, and your reasonings seems good, and sureley you will have more testing than me.
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« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2009, 09:52:35 pm »

That is quite a list, Maxx.  How has it been testing against different decks?  I'm especially interested in your matchups against Tezz and Oath.  Also, you mentioned combo being a bad matchup, so I'm interested to know what numbers you've been running against it. 
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« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2009, 09:39:18 pm »


I feel a bit "nude" against Combo decks such as TPS, ANT o TES. They can board discard effect to free their path to victory: it will nullify MindbreakTrapping them
The best thing your proposed side can do to improve this ( bad ) matchup is to board in Obeyline and pull out a quick win. Sometimes games are slow enough to pull out a couple of good outplaying moves: Titan for lands, Shaman for Moxen, Wall of Counterspells. In any other game situations we are at their mercè, because their aggressive discards and quick tutors are faster than our Drains/SlowInteractiveSpells.


Brian used to have problems with combo decks that utilized a lot of discards + Forces of Will most notably such as Rector deck back then, which resembled a crude, precursor form of the modern TPS nowadays. He proposed at that time to test in the main deck a pair of Chalice of the Voids as the solution to stall the discard plan and the cheap tutors; as well as having some possibilities to reinforce and cover match-ups against other deck types that exist in his metagame. To compensate for the strategy then perhaps a few spell modifications is needed.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 01:19:15 am by Tiki Walker » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2009, 01:01:53 am »

Hmmm Chalice of the Void is an interesting option.  It does take a few of the Deck's cards, too (most notably Ancestral Recall, Brainstorm, and Ponder against Combo), but it might just hurt them more than us.  It is definitely worth testing.  Also, some number of Mindbreak Traps in the main and/or sideboard might be really good.  I definitely think that 1 Mindbreak Trap and 1 Ravenous Trap should be in the sideboard of any deck running Cunning Wish.  Being able to randomly win games against Combo and Dredge game 1 by casting a 2U instant is just too good to pass up.  Plus, they are actually good to sideboard in for games 2 and 3 against those decks.  I suppose the Deck could also run Mystic Remora in the sideboard and/or main.
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« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2009, 01:24:43 am »

If you're worried about getting your counters Duressed away by Combo as they go off, try Trinisphere. Aggressively Tinkering for 3Sphere along with Counters+Extirpate is better than sitting back on a Mindbreak Trap that may or may not be in your hand when you need it.
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Tiki Walker
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« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2009, 10:50:17 am »

Although both come from Mirrodin there was a reason why Brian considered to test Chalice in his deck to fight Rector but not Trinisphere.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 10:18:20 pm by Tiki Walker » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2009, 12:46:07 pm »

Mindbreak Trap is actually really good in the deck, for alot of reasons, including Gorilla Shaman.  However, I think that Misdirection is just better. 
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« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2009, 03:26:21 pm »

I used to play vintage back in the mid 90s and remember having to deal with Brian Weismann and his "The Deck" at all of the local tournaments in the SF bay area. One of the coolest decks of all time, definitely. What is the difference between "Keeper" and "The Deck"? Aren't they the same thing?
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« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2009, 09:43:24 pm »

So I played The Deck at NYSE IV today, made Top 8 and also the no proxy prize, losing to Tezz in the Top 8. I really felt like could beat everything, the deck concept is still alive and well.
It was awesome, I absolutely love this deck.
Here's my list, optimized for the 5C Stax and Oath matchups.
I added Empty the Warrens, which wound up being absolutely crictical. It was awesome to cast just for 1-2 storm and YawgWill=auto win.

The Deck:

Mana:
3 City of Brass
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strant
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

Spells:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Tinker
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind (I tried Titan but switched to Sphinx after a ton of testing. Maybe it's just me, but Sphinx saved my ass today a few times)
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Misdirection
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Fire/Ice
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Regrowth
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Greater Gargadon
1 Oxidize
1 Rebuild
1 Extirpate
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast


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Metman
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« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2009, 04:12:11 pm »

The return of The Deck almost brings a tear to my eye. 

I'm really liking the lists I've seen here.  I think that Maxx Matt makes very compelling arguments for the inclusion of Balance.  My only concern is the detriment that adding a white card to the list has on the mana base.  I understand the inclusion of City of Brass; I've been making the pitch to include CoB in four color Tezz since Steel City Vault made an appearance. 

Therefore, my question to Maxx Matt is are four CoB and the moxen enough to support the white in the list or do you think it is necessary to run a lone Tundra?  If the Tundra is necessary, what land do you cut to replace it with? 

It has been brought up in earlier posts but I think that the question needs to be repeated.  I'm not sure it has been thoroughly answered and it is a significant issue with this list.  How do you plan on winning two games out of possibly three games in fifty minutes with The Deck?  Although the deck can sow up a win theoretically within 5-6 turns through significant card advantage and board control, but I don't think we can count on people to scoop despite the disadvantage they have.  I cannot foresee somebody being stuck in a Strip/Waste lock with a lone Gorilla Shaman beating them down scooping immediately.  Many people need to see their life total hit "0" before the game comes to an end. 

Let me take a step back for a moment and ask a question that should have posed prior to the previous one I asked.  Do you or should we plan on winning two games in a match?  It is a perfectly legal and good plan to drag the first game of a match out if The Deck has succeeded in building a tremendous advantage.  Is there any rush to seal the first game up with a giant robot and risk going into the second match and getting blown out of the water and then not having time to finish game three and ending in a draw?  If I have an opponent in a strip lock or Mindtwist their hand away and drop a Shaman and they don't scoop, it is not stalling to not play your Tinker and speed the game up is it?

Here I will pose the question that many of us may have but none have come forward to ask.  Should we play this deck to play and win one game?
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sean1i0
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« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2009, 05:00:05 pm »

Well, as for the Balance/manabase question, I can say that I've been playing with Balance in the main and just the 4 CoBs to support it and it's been completely fine.  Also, yes, Balance is really as good as we remember it.  Maybe even better than that.  To echo what MaxxMatt said, it does require a good bit of timing, but there have been plenty of games so far that I have won just from spending the early game setting up a Balance for maximum effect and going from there.

As far as how slow we should play it, well, I think that will more be a factor of what deck you're playing against.  Once you drop a Titan/Sphinx/Inkwell/Whatever it shouldn't take that long to win.  So far in testing I haven't noticed any abnormally long games.  Don't get me wrong, they are longer games than say with TPS or the average Tezz deck, but they're not that much longer than I remember some matchups with old Control Slaver decks going.  If you are in a matchup (maybe the mirror for instance) where you notice that the clock is running out too fast to have 2-3 games, then I don't see anything wrong with stretching out game 1 if you have a winning position.
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« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2009, 05:38:32 pm »

Only one of my matches went to turns yesterday (vs. 5C Stax) and this has more to do with us both mana screwing each other game 1, which took a half hour to finish (would have taken longer, but I scooped to an almost-hard lock).

Of course, this directly addresses the issue I had with The Deck that I mentioned earlier (it's really easy to "win" with but hard to actually kill with). Perhaps the reason that I didn't have trouble killing was Empty the Warrens, which was by far my favorite inclusion on the day. I know this card isn't so much in the "spirit" of The Deck, but it's been really, really good.

I've never had a problem casting Balance in Oath w/ 4 Orchards and the same mana artifacts, and while I didn't run it in my list because I wasn't expecting aggro, I wouldn't bother adding a Tundra for it.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2009, 08:24:15 pm »

I don't think there is anything wrong with ETW.   However, there are other ways to increase your ability to win against certain matchups, such as bringing in Obeyline.

However, I think that the changes you made weakened the Tezzeret matchup.   Think about how much emphasis this article put on the Tezzeret matchup, and how i specifically designed the deck for that matchup.  Cutting Titan for Sphinx really hurts the Tez matchup, for example.

Also, you apparently cut Cuninng Wish, but that gives you access to Krosan Grip.   I don't understand how your list is better optimized for either Stax or Oath than the list I presented in this article.  
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« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2009, 09:43:29 pm »

As you said in your article, The Deck is not a specific list but rather a concept. I tested this list extensively, starting with exactly your list from the article as a basis and then making my own personal choices there.

I tried to make the list something that I personally felt was best for me. I feel comfortable with Sphinx as my Tinker guy, I feel better w/o Cunning Wish and with Academy + Empty.

I tested vs. Stax and vs. Oath, and while I don't personally have anything against your suggestions, they are not the only optimized lists for those matches. I felt that what I had was a powerful list that fit my playstyle and that I could rely on in any matchup, not limited to but particularly focusing on matches vs. Stax and Oath. This is the first deck I've played in a long time where I really felt I could just trust the deck to win, to find the right answer to whatever situation I'm in. The choices I made (ETW, Sphinx) salvaged quite a few matches for me, ones where I somehow managed to sneak out a victory. I guess what I'm getting at is that there are many ways of constructing an optimal list for a certain match, not just the ones presented in your article. I prefer to beat Stax w/ Empty, Shaman and Oxidize instead of Rack and Ruin, for example.

I cut Titan because as I said earlier, he just didn't work for me. Against Stax he's the worst possible Tinker guy, and the all suck vs. Oath. He is really good against Tezz, I'll give you, but Tinker isn't really my plan vs. Tezz. I really think the robot slot is up to personal preference, and I don't see myself switching off Sphinx in the foreseeable future.

I tested Obeyline maindeck, and I didn't like it either. Going w/ 2 Leylines + Helm, as you and Patrick recommend, didn't seem to work out. I very rarely had a Leyline out turn 0, because I was only running 2. I absolutely HATE drawing into Leyline when it's not in my opener. That leaves 3 dead slots if I can't find one of the 2 Leylines in my opener, and I'm sure you will agree that both dead draws and having to mulligan to find a 2 of is pretty awful for this deck. I could up the Leyline count, but running the full 4 maindeck, while it does solve part of the problem, still leaves and equal number of dead draws.
The wins of this deck are two cards: YawgWill and Tinker. Resolving one of those cards should win you the game most of the time. Empty makes Yawg insane; I don't think I need to go into detail about storm. It's also some good vs. Stax...Rebuild and suddenly I have 30 permanents and they have...a Welder and a Shop. Or even if I can just hit it for 2-4 storm, it still should seal the deal. Empty was the real star for me, if you'd like I'll post a report that goes into greater detail about how it was amazing in pretty much every match.

I didn't run Cunning Wish or Krosan Grip. I chose Oxidize over K Grip because hitting 1 mana vs. Stax is obviously a lot easier than hitting 3. The only enchantment I'm going to want to hit is Oath, but I have other ways of dealing with that deck (Gargadon, Extirpate, Sad Sac, Edict). I tested the Oath match literally 50-60 times in the last few days (with the person who placed 3rd, Chris Hansen) and I'm not exaggerating when I say I won 80%+ of the games. I have played Oath for years and I know what to do to stop it, but I don't think that's the sole reason I did so well in that match.

I did make the conscious choice to weaken my Tezz matchup. I think one of my problems is that I never plan for Tezz, because I just assume that since Tezz is such a huge part of the meta, the "default" list of my deck is prepared for Tezz and the board handles the rest. Obviously this is flawed logic, but I find myself falling into that trap every time I make a deck (and it hurt, since I lost to Tezz in the top 8). However, I think that:
a) I'm confident enough about control mirrors to know what to do. Tezz will try to play fast, land a Bob and resolve Vault/Key while I'm going to be the pure control in the matchup. This is how I prefer to play, and I'm pretty comfortable with that fact.
b) Given my confidence in control mirrors, I'm ok with my usual game plan + 2 Blasts and Extirpate, and Sad Sac in the board, instead of optimizing for Tezz.
As a random statistically anomalous sidenote, I've played in Vintage tournaments almost every weekend since May, and somehow I have only played vs. Tezz THREE TIMES. I know that the chances of that happening are ridiculously low, but somehow, it's worked out like that.

As I said, I'll post a report if you'd like, I think it justifies a lot of my choices in practical terms.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2009, 10:01:05 pm »

A report would be great.  Thanks Smile
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MaxxMatt
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« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2009, 12:34:36 am »

That is quite a list, Maxx.  How has it been testing against different decks?  I'm especially interested in your matchups against Tezz and Oath.  Also, you mentioned combo being a bad matchup, so I'm interested to know what numbers you've been running against it. 

Hi sean,
test resuts against tezz and oath have been striking good. I can axe both of them ( oath more than tezz, of course )  with denial plan: Shaman & Wasteland are golden, but STitan during those matchups gives his best getting rid off all opponent lands quite often. Post side approach with obeyline, especially against oath is even better.

At now, I'm going for the same route against TPS and other combo decks that rely on grave, too. It's not the best thing to do against them, but it is quick to build up and win with them. Against TPS, a quickly tutored Extirpate is quite good against their few redundant elements ( RItuals, FoW, Fetchlands ): I'm confidant of being able to play around their brokeness unless combo decks would not flood the field again.

During past days, I used Chalices against TPS, Long, GrimLong, PitchLong and any other form of combo decks. ...at now, sideboard is far more tighter than in the past: I have to dedicate at least 6 or 7 slots to dredge, stax & fish. a few of general porpouse spells are added too. I'm not confidant anymore to steal 4 slots for combo with a full set of chalices: IMHO, time is perfect for fighting combo with a general mix of spells, in order not to water  sideboard strength. I'll accept to test and eventually play Trnisphere for sure: it is another good addition would not steal too much space resulting extremely good.
 


Quote
I'm really liking the lists I've seen here.  I think that Maxx Matt makes very compelling arguments for the inclusion of Balance.  My only concern is the detriment that adding a white card to the list has on the mana base.  I understand the inclusion of City of Brass; I've been making the pitch to include CoB in four color Tezz since Steel City Vault made an appearance. Therefore, my question to Maxx Matt is are four CoB and the moxen enough to support the white in the list or do you think it is necessary to run a lone Tundra?  If the Tundra is necessary, what land do you cut to replace it with?

I strongly recommend you NOT to add the lone Tundra. Mana base, even with 27-28 mana fonts is highly wastable. Color screw is predictably rare, because of CoB, but opponents CoW+Waste can easily keep your mana count sometimes too low. I'm an historical fan of basic lands ( Islands ) but into this deck I have not been able to rise the number of fetchland over 4 and the number of duals lower than 4... Islands and CoB and Strips are needed to avoid opponents brokeness: in the end, a single white spell can't ruin your plans and I'm always been able to resole Balance when needed with my 6 mana fonts. Opponents tend to leave CoB in play and kill other lands: it is a matter of fact and you'll benefit of their misconception  a lot

Quote
It has been brought up in earlier posts but I think that the question needs to be repeated.  I'm not sure it has been thoroughly answered and it is a significant issue with this list.  How do you plan on winning two games out of possibly three games in fifty minutes with The Deck?  Although the deck can sow up a win theoretically within 5-6 turns through significant card advantage and board control, but I don't think we can count on people to scoop despite the disadvantage they have.  I cannot foresee somebody being stuck in a Strip/Waste lock with a lone Gorilla Shaman beating them down scooping immediately.  Many people need to see their life total hit "0" before the game comes to an end.

People will concede only against hard locks or fast combo: you can always play the first game with the major slower plan ( denial and your fatties ) switching for Obeyline during game 2 and 3 if the first game consume you too much time. Take into account, your preside game situation is at least 50% a large variety of opponents and you can rise your winning rate with experience. This edge will help you play first game as it should be played and the other two ones defensively ( if you won the first ) or trying to set up quick obeyline/tinker ( of you need to win two games ). I'm really happy of the speed THIS thedeck has now: previous versions had a slower clock, too!!

Quote
Here I will pose the question that many of us may have but none have come forward to ask.  Should we play this deck to play and win one game?

It is exactly the contrary, IMHO. You should play this deck at his best.
Concede quickly if you are running bad, steal games with rapid wins even after initial soft locked opponents. Times of semieternal recursions are faded away: you will optimize your win/draw rate as far as you play more games with keeper. Doing the most of the complex moves as quick as you can, will reward you more than a first turn protected Tinker for Robot.
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« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2009, 12:45:31 am »

Steve, here's a link to the report:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39515.0
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« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2009, 04:29:57 am »

As you said in your article, The Deck is not a specific list but rather a concept. I tested this list extensively, starting with exactly your list from the article as a basis and then making my own personal choices there.  I tried to make the list something that I personally felt was best for me. I feel comfortable with Sphinx as my Tinker guy, I feel better w/o Cunning Wish and with Academy + Empty.

This is really the greatest among possible points of view about TheDeck's configurations: maindeck choices come down to the customization of nothing more than 5 or 6 slots. Depending on metagame, style and forsighting choices, those cards cannot interfere with general winning plan and game strategy of the deck itself but, in the end, will let us play "our" deck with some umpredictable spells. At now, I will not be able to choose less than 68-69 cards for my  maindeck. Tournament after tournament I will "tune" it, changing and swapping those few cards, without altering plans and strategy, but trying to improve specific matchups: it is an hard work but it can function only when spread open metagame is well known.

Look at the few difference among mine, yours and smmemen' suggested deck. They reduced themselves to:
balance, tfk, timetwister, edict, sower, deed, etw, sphinx, cow, rebuild: those are "jolly" cards, pet choices and metagame adaptions... the skeleton is the same for each of us.


Quote
I tested vs. Stax and vs. Oath, and while I don't personally have anything against your suggestions, they are not the only optimized lists for those matches. I felt that what I had was a powerful list that fit my playstyle and that I could rely on in any matchup, not limited to but particularly focusing on matches vs. Stax and Oath. This is the first deck I've played in a long time where I really felt I could just trust the deck to win, to find the right answer to whatever situation I'm in. The choices I made (ETW, Sphinx) salvaged quite a few matches for me, ones where I somehow managed to sneak out a victory. I guess what I'm getting at is that there are many ways of constructing an optimal list for a certain match, not just the ones presented in your article. I prefer to beat Stax w/ Empty, Shaman and Oxidize instead of Rack and Ruin, for example. I cut Titan because as I said earlier, he just didn't work for me. Against Stax he's the worst possible Tinker guy, and the all suck vs. Oath. He is really good against Tezz, I'll give you, but Tinker isn't really my plan vs. Tezz. I really think the robot slot is up to personal preference, and I don't see myself switching off Sphinx in the foreseeable future.

I'm with your feelings about STitan vs. Stax: noway to see it useful against them because of their blockers, welders and non duals non basics. Retrospectively speaking, I would have tested both maindeck STitan plus Sphinx without EtW. This Keeper isn't going to put in play an overwhelming number of goblins, usually a single good beater such as Sphinx is far more gamebreaking to deal than stupid 1/1. Both of them are strong Tinker choices: STitan against control and combo while Sphinx is perfect to deal with stax, fish & random. In the end EtW isn't so strong against nothing particulary: against stax you can sometimes have an edge because of permanents, but beaters and blockers will get rid of them soon. Try Sphinx+STitan for your modified maindeck configuration. Your last tourney have been: 5cstax, dredge, goblins, oath, oath, tezz; if you think about them, you can resolve Sphinx against the first triplet and win while putting STitan in play will give you an edge over the three latter ones.

Quote
I tested Obeyline maindeck, and I didn't like it either. Going w/ 2 Leylines + Helm, as you and Patrick recommend, didn't seem to work out. I very rarely had a Leyline out turn 0, because I was only running 2. I absolutely HATE drawing into Leyline when it's not in my opener. That leaves 3 dead slots if I can't find one of the 2 Leylines in my opener, and I'm sure you will agree that both dead draws and having to mulligan to find a 2 of is pretty awful for this deck. I could up the Leyline count, but running the full 4 maindeck, while it does solve part of the problem, still leaves and equal number of dead draws. The wins of this deck are two cards: YawgWill and Tinker. Resolving one of those cards should win you the game most of the time. Empty makes Yawg insane; I don't think I need to go into detail about storm. It's also some good vs. Stax...Rebuild and suddenly I have 30 permanents and they have...a Welder and a Shop. Or even if I can just hit it for 2-4 storm, it still should seal the deal. Empty was the real star for me, if you'd like I'll post a report that goes into greater detail about how it was amazing in pretty much every match.

I'm sure 2+1 maindeck obeyline didn't convince me, too. It seems strong on chart but narrow as much as playing a deck not focused on maindecking the 4+1 obeyline configuration. EtW and your reasonings are perfectly reasonable: anyway, I'm convinced about EtW being over the top only against Stax ( when you compare it to an additional general porpouse tinker target such as Sphinx ). Against all the other decks, a well protected Sphinx will help you more than 5 tokens because of spirit link ( helping your life devoured by fetches & CoBs ) and the other evasive abilities. Fish can pack ETruth and stax E.E. getting rid of all of them with ease because their being tokens.

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I didn't run Cunning Wish or Krosan Grip. I chose Oxidize over K Grip because hitting 1 mana vs. Stax is obviously a lot easier than hitting 3. The only enchantment I'm going to want to hit is Oath, but I have other ways of dealing with that deck (Gargadon, Extirpate, Sad Sac, Edict). I tested the Oath match literally 50-60 times in the last few days (with the person who placed 3rd, Chris Hansen) and I'm not exaggerating when I say I won 80%+ of the games. I have played Oath for years and I know what to do to stop it, but I don't think that's the sole reason I did so well in that match.

I keep Wish+Grip in side only because none usually think about countering CWish itself. There are plenty of difficult to block as Wish's target ( Exirpate, KrosanGrip, Mis-D, BFreeze ) that keep me convincing not to change this lone slot but if I had a different cards choise for future sideboard, CWish will be the first card to leave the deck

Quote
I did make the conscious choice to weaken my Tezz matchup. I think one of my problems is that I never plan for Tezz, because I just assume that since Tezz is such a huge part of the meta, the "default" list of my deck is prepared for Tezz and the board handles the rest. Obviously this is flawed logic, but I find myself falling into that trap every time I make a deck (and it hurt, since I lost to Tezz in the top 8). However, I think that:
a) I'm confident enough about control mirrors to know what to do. Tezz will try to play fast, land a Bob and resolve Vault/Key while I'm going to be the pure control in the matchup. This is how I prefer to play, and I'm pretty comfortable with that fact.
b) Given my confidence in control mirrors, I'm ok with my usual game plan + 2 Blasts and Extirpate, and Sad Sac in the board, instead of optimizing for Tezz.
As a random statistically anomalous sidenote, I've played in Vintage tournaments almost every weekend since May, and somehow I have only played vs. Tezz THREE TIMES. I know that the chances of that happening are ridiculously low, but somehow, it's worked out like that.

I completely agree with you about this way of reasoning! Smile Good work!

Quote
As I said, I'll post a report if you'd like, I think it justifies a lot of my choices in practical terms.

my thoughts about EtW:
round 1: Sphinx instead of EtW would have won you the game, as well as goblins, don't you?
round 2: Sphinx here is huge.
round 3: Sphinx here is huge.
round 4-5: STitan here is huge
round 6: STitan here is cool

Wouldn't be better to take out EtW, even if it performed so well? You are going to win through YWill or Tinker. I prefer to split perfectly Tinker targets if they are huge against half of the field. EtW alone will not win games whereas optimal Tinker targets do. EtW is a bit more "dead card" because it needs YWill to be optimized. These are my last feeling about its insertion/exclusion in such a deck.  Great report and results, as well! Smile

             
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As far as how slow we should play it, well, I think that will more be a factor of what deck you're playing against.  Once you drop a Titan/Sphinx/Inkwell/Whatever it shouldn't take that long to win.  So far in testing I haven't noticed any abnormally long games.  Don't get me wrong, they are longer games than say with TPS or the average Tezz deck, but they're not that much longer than I remember some matchups with old Control Slaver decks going.  If you are in a matchup (maybe the mirror for instance) where you notice that the clock is running out too fast to have 2-3 games, then I don't see anything wrong with stretching out game 1 if you have a winning position.

Being able to suddenly pop out a combo kill and win is an excellent escape button even for the most controllish thedeck pile. In the past "time needed to win" have been thedeck's Achile  talon: I draw too many rounds during tournaments games in the past. At now I feel more comfortable with thedeck because of my capability to win games even during additional turns and nothing more. It is an unpayable add on!
                                                                                                                                         
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« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2009, 01:21:02 pm »

I'm with your feelings about STitan vs. Stax: noway to see it useful against them because of their blockers, welders and non duals non basics. Retrospectively speaking, I would have tested both maindeck STitan plus Sphinx without EtW. This Keeper isn't going to put in play an overwhelming number of goblins, usually a single good beater such as Sphinx is far more gamebreaking to deal than stupid 1/1. Both of them are strong Tinker choices: STitan against control and combo while Sphinx is perfect to deal with stax, fish & random. In the end EtW isn't so strong against nothing particulary: against stax you can sometimes have an edge because of permanents, but beaters and blockers will get rid of them soon. Try Sphinx+STitan for your modified maindeck configuration. Your last tourney have been: 5cstax, dredge, goblins, oath, oath, tezz; if you think about them, you can resolve Sphinx against the first triplet and win while putting STitan in play will give you an edge over the three latter ones.
Wouldn't it be better to pick one of the Tinker guys and maindeck it, and then sideboard the other if I were going to run both? Having the 2nd one maindeck that I can basically only cast with Drain isn't really the best, imo, and this isn't Slaver where I can just dump it to TFK and Weld it in.
Also, after testing Empty, I can't see myself ever cutting it. It was the key win card in so many matches. Pumping out 4-8 Goblins without Yawg is fine as a late game finisher, and it also gives you a blocker wall vs. Aggro and frees your mana vs. Stax if you need it. This definitely comes down to personal preferences, but I'm not gonna play without Empty for the foreseeable future.

Quote
I'm sure 2+1 maindeck obeyline didn't convince me, too. It seems strong on chart but narrow as much as playing a deck not focused on maindecking the 4+1 obeyline configuration. EtW and your reasonings are perfectly reasonable: anyway, I'm convinced about EtW being over the top only against Stax ( when you compare it to an additional general porpouse tinker target such as Sphinx ). Against all the other decks, a well protected Sphinx will help you more than 5 tokens because of spirit link ( helping your life devoured by fetches & CoBs ) and the other evasive abilities. Fish can pack ETruth and stax E.E. getting rid of all of them with ease because their being tokens.
There are ways out of Sphinx, Titan, and Empty, but if I have both, they are more difficult to answer. Fish might have ETruth, but if they have to use it on Sphinx, then they can't use it on Gobbos, and vice versa. Also I'm pretty confident that by the time I've dropped the win, I have moved into Aggro-Control mode instead of control and I can protect my win. If I can't, I probably shouldn't have played a win yet.
Obeyline definitely seems sideboard to me. I did watch Vroman get blown out by Doug Linn with it on turn 1, and Vroman said it happened again Saturday, but that is such a rare situation and is very hard to pull off. I've stated why I'm not such a fan of it maindeck before.
My question would be, if you're suggesting running both Sphinx and Titan, wouldn't I be better off picking one guy and then when that guy is bad, bringing in the Obeyline plan to Tinker into? This way, Sphinx handles aggro and Obeyline handles the rest, including Tezz or Oath. Vs. Stax I'm not sure which is better, Sphinx or Obeyline (both?) but Titan is absolutely awful; they play Titan and not dual lands, so they're both prepared for him to hit play and have Welder to absolutely wreck you.


Quote
I keep Wish+Grip in side only because none usually think about countering CWish itself. There are plenty of difficult to block as Wish's target ( Exirpate, KrosanGrip, Mis-D, BFreeze ) that keep me convincing not to change this lone slot but if I had a different cards choise for future sideboard, CWish will be the first card to leave the deck

I agree with what someone said to Patrick about Cunning Wish - it's only in because this deck really wants, as you said, 66-68 maindeck cards available. I like that Wish does that, but it just didn't fit into deck. I definitely had trouble cutting some things (Twister, Balance, 3rd Sower, Glen Elendra Archmage), but I just sucked it up and realized that I can't play every card every time.
As a sidenote, I think people tend to overdo the wish board a little. 5-7 Instants in the board is enough, you'll always have something good to Wish for and still have more than half the board left for non-instants. Too many times I see people play 12+ Instants when other options are better just because of the Wish board.

As far as KGrip goes, it seems ok against most decks, but never awesome against anything. I'd rather pick a card that's a bullet vs. 1-2 decks instead of a card thats ok vs. the field. Oxidize is amazing vs. Stax, which is why I chose to play it (dodges Chalice 2, which seems popular vs. Drains even though I don't mind it too much, and 1 mana instant is obviously good).

Quote
my thoughts about EtW:
round 1: Sphinx instead of EtW would have won you the game, as well as goblins, don't you?
round 2: Sphinx here is huge.
round 3: Sphinx here is huge.
round 4-5: STitan here is huge
round 6: STitan here is cool

Wouldn't be better to take out EtW, even if it performed so well? You are going to win through YWill or Tinker. I prefer to split perfectly Tinker targets if they are huge against half of the field. EtW alone will not win games whereas optimal Tinker targets do. EtW is a bit more "dead card" because it needs YWill to be optimized. These are my last feeling about its insertion/exclusion in such a deck.  Great report and results, as well! Smile

Round 1, Empty absolutely won me the game where nothing else would have. My huge YawgWill for 20+ guys got me out of triple Tangle range and also gave me a kill (I cast Yawg on turn 2 of extra turns, otherwise it would have been a draw).
Round 2, I never saw tinker, but Sphinx is the best of the 3 bots vs. Dredge, although Obeyline is obviously better. Empty let me win game 1 by having threats, which is really tough to do vs. Dredge.
Round 3: Sphinx saved my ass, I didn't expect to play vs. Goblins and lifelink+pro-red were absolutely amazing, as they should be vs. aggro. Empty was also critical vs. aggro to make blockers.
Round 4,5: When I play vs. Oath I take out all the creatures for Obeyline anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Empty is ok, not great either. My main win vs. Oath is Gargadon or Obeyline.
Round 6: Titan would have won me game 1 probably, since he was down to 1 more Sphinx swing and found a way out. Sphinx is definitely suboptimal here, but ETW is fine I think.

My choice of Sphinx basically boils down to:
I knew that there was going to be A LOT of Stax, so I wanted my Tinker guy to be unweldable (meaning no DSC or Titan)
Inkwell is bad vs. Stax because Karn and Titan block him all day.
Sphinx is unweldable and flies, and also steals game I shouldn't win vs. Aggro, which is traditionally underrepresented in my field but can easily pop up out of nowhere.
Sphinx seemed to be the answer, only bad in Oath and Tezz matchups, and I board him out vs. Oath anyway.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 01:24:42 pm by MirariKnight » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2009, 05:28:22 pm »


During past days, I used Chalices against TPS, Long, GrimLong, PitchLong and any other form of combo decks. ...at now, sideboard is far more tighter than in the past: I have to dedicate at least 6 or 7 slots to dredge, stax & fish. a few of general porpouse spells are added too. I'm not confidant anymore to steal 4 slots for combo with a full set of chalices: IMHO, time is perfect for fighting combo with a general mix of spells, in order not to water  sideboard strength. I'll accept to test and eventually play Trnisphere for sure: it is another good addition would not steal too much space resulting extremely good.

The printing of Mindbreak Trap makes it easier to run just 2-3 cards for Combo, and have a better chance than ever.    Mindbreak Trap is a great SB card for the Deck, and is arguably maindeckable.


I cut Titan because as I said earlier, he just didn't work for me. Against Stax he's the worst possible Tinker guy, and the all suck vs. Oath. He is really good against Tezz, I'll give you, but Tinker isn't really my plan vs. Tezz. I really think the robot slot is up to personal preference, and I don't see myself switching off Sphinx in the foreseeable future.


Tinker isn't the plan for Tezz?   Tinker says: One sided Armagedden that also happens to win the game.  The plan is resource denial, and Tinker is a 3 mana armageddon that does it all over again if they find a way to deal with the Titan.   If tezzeret is the most important matchup, and it is, and Titan is best against Tezzeret, and it is, then the burden is on someone else to justify a different inclusion.   

Against Stax, you SB Titan out and bring in Obeyline.   IN the matchups where Titan is bad, Obeyline is best, and vice versa. 
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« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2009, 05:46:34 pm »

Tinker isn't the plan for Tezz?   Tinker says: One sided Armagedden that also happens to win the game.  The plan is resource denial, and Tinker is a 3 mana armageddon that does it all over again if they find a way to deal with the Titan.   If tezzeret is the most important matchup, and it is, and Titan is best against Tezzeret, and it is, then the burden is on someone else to justify a different inclusion.   

Against Stax, you SB Titan out and bring in Obeyline.   IN the matchups where Titan is bad, Obeyline is best, and vice versa. 

I:
a) Never found Titan to actually do what you're saying it does. Frequently, because of my Wastes, Strips, Etc., I didn't want to Tinker up Titan because it would hurt me more than the opponent. I really did test Titan because I trust you and Patrick when you say it's good, but I never got the effect I wanted. Maybe I'm playing it wrong, but more than half the time I could cast Tinker>Titan I didn't want to because I would lose my advantage (plus I'm already losing a Mox to Tinker most likely). Crucible negates this somewhat but not entirely.
b) Made a conscious decision to downgrade my Tezz matchup. Although it is a large part of the general Type 1 metagame, I didn't expect to see it more than once, if at all. It was not my most important matchup. What about the matchups where Titan and Obeyline are bad (Aggro)? Sphinx is good in those, and is good in a few of the matchups where Titan is also good. Were I to play The Deck again at a different tournament (most likely), I will test Titan again in my new list, and see if he fares better.

Maybe I don't like Titan because I'm not playing optimally, and if that's the case I'm wondering how exactly to get an advantage off his effect, because it never actually seems to happen, even with Crucibles and Cities.
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« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2009, 06:01:22 pm »

Tinker isn't the plan for Tezz?   Tinker says: One sided Armagedden that also happens to win the game.  The plan is resource denial, and Tinker is a 3 mana armageddon that does it all over again if they find a way to deal with the Titan.   If tezzeret is the most important matchup, and it is, and Titan is best against Tezzeret, and it is, then the burden is on someone else to justify a different inclusion.   

Against Stax, you SB Titan out and bring in Obeyline.   IN the matchups where Titan is bad, Obeyline is best, and vice versa. 

I:
a) Never found Titan to actually do what you're saying it does. Frequently, because of my Wastes, Strips, Etc., I didn't want to Tinker up Titan because it would hurt me more than the opponent. I really did test Titan because I trust you and Patrick when you say it's good, but I never got the effect I wanted. Maybe I'm playing it wrong, but more than half the time I could cast Tinker>Titan I didn't want to because I would lose my advantage (plus I'm already losing a Mox to Tinker most likely). Crucible negates this somewhat but not entirely.

It could be that having less than 4 Cities contributes to this, but it shouldn't make that big of a difference.   Suppose you have in play:

City of Brass, Island, Volcanic Island, Underground Sea

And your opponent has in play:

Island, Underground Sea, Underground Sea, Volcanic Island

Ok?   now, you go and play Tinker, you fight over it, and it resolves.   You destroy their Seas and their Volcano.   Tinker said: destroy three lands!   That's typically what it says.

Even if you lose lands, your opponent will ALWAYS lose more.   That's why it's so insane.   You've lost a Mox and a Tinker, but you've now got them in a place where it will be very difficult for them to win.   

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« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2009, 06:40:33 pm »

I understand that, but the problem comes when I'm tuning for Stax and Oath.
Stax takes better advantage of Titan than I do (no lands w/ land types, Crucible, Welder, etc.) and it's obviously bad to play Titan vs. Stax
Oath runs Orchards, which are basically like my Cities. Oath runs Trops instead of Volcs which means I probably lose a Volcanic since I have to hit a Mountain, at minimum.
I see what you're saying, and if it works out like that, it does produce a pretty unwinnable situation for them. As I said, I will continue testing Titan and maybe my opinion will change.
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« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2009, 04:58:01 am »

@MirariKnight
I second your bad feelings about STitan as "primarily" maindeck Tinker target if your metagame is exactly as the one you faced in your last tourney experience. Put Titan in your sideboard and pull it out against combo and control. It could be the possibly best solution for you to minimize the number of maindecked winner condition and add a good variety between sideboard and maindeck ( EtW, Sphinx, Titan ).

@Smmemen
MindbreakTrap is really strong by itself but it is a great "so so" against combo packing discards. They would not let you optimize your best play against them with ease. I thought about adding Sensei Divining Top to the deck, tutor for it, control the draw and try to leave MTrap for a while on top of the deck in order to switch for it during the very last instant. IMHO, no TPS player will blindly pull out the combo only to see it fizzle by a single free spell. Their winning routine will evolve passing to forced discard effects and, as soon as the opponent adapt, you'll find Mindbreaktrap less useful. Acting forsighting, I can see how aggressively Tinkering for Trinisphere could me more useful than keeping Mindbreaktrap in hand waiting for it to be discarded. At now, I'm just thinking about 2 or 3 cards to play with the lone Trinisphere but I think this will be my sideboard of choice for the very next future:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Trinisphere
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Extirpate
1 Pyroblast
1 Darkblast
1 Fire/Ice

@SpellPierce over ManaDrain
Strategically speaking, addition of non blue lands such as Wasteland, Strip and LoA, will retard of a full turn ManaDrain being online to axe opponents spells. You usually have some moxen, a wasteland and a colored land. UU can be too slow to achieve if you are trading turns and land drop with opponent lands. On the contrary, they can made a land drop every turn, live with that mana and additional accelerants and try to resolve spells. During the early game, Spell Pierce can be online since first turn and you are going to have an "hard" counter after wasting your land's drop ready to be played with a single additional mana. My feeling about TheDeck being strong during early game such as during the mid-late game can be achieved swapping Drains for Pierces

You'll have a lower mana curve it would let you play comfortably with 27 mana fonts.
You can counter turn 1
You can waste and counter turn 2
As soon as you can reach the plateau of TheDeck denial's softlock, Pierce will block anything but creatures: you can deal with them with global removal as well
Pierce + Waste is a strong board/hand position against stax, combo and control. Aggrocontrol can't be stopped in this way because of his critters, but fish.dec aren't "creatures.dec" and nothing more: they are thin on mana base, killing duals and manlands usually is enough to slow them down while surprising their winning plan with unexpected counterspells for their own spells can be ovewhelming against a deck usually "wins small".

TheDeck can soft lock opponents very often and for long time: Shaman kill accelerants, Titan and Strips lands, Pierce is faster than Drain. Trinisphere could be resolved to enhance the denial plan against pletora of spells, LotV will reduce opponents YWill recursions and all the other cards can corally help this process ( Balance, Mindtwist, removals and so on ) of controlling their board.

I'm sure this list can function as well as the other proposed until now. Test it, if you like. Enjoy

(27)
8 CrySoLoMoxen
5 Strips
4 City of Brass
4 Fetchlands
2 Undeground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 LoA

(9)
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection

(4)
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Sundering Titan

(8)
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Fire/Ice
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mindtwist
1 Regrowth
1 Balance

(7)
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

(5)
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker

Sideboard
4 LotV
1 F/I
1 ReB
1 Pyro
1 Helm
1 Sphinx
1 Extirpate
1 Mindbreaktrap
1 Rebuild
1 HRecall
1 Deed
1 Trini
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« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2009, 07:41:06 am »

@MirariKnight
I second your bad feelings about STitan as "primarily" maindeck Tinker target if your metagame is exactly as the one you faced in your last tourney experience. Put Titan in your sideboard and pull it out against combo and control. It could be the possibly best solution for you to minimize the number of maindecked winner condition and add a good variety between sideboard and maindeck ( EtW, Sphinx, Titan ).

@Smmemen
MindbreakTrap is really strong by itself but it is a great "so so" against combo packing discards. They would not let you optimize your best play against them with ease. I thought about adding Sensei Divining Top to the deck, tutor for it, control the draw and try to leave MTrap for a while on top of the deck in order to switch for it during the very last instant. IMHO, no TPS player will blindly pull out the combo only to see it fizzle by a single free spell. Their winning routine will evolve passing to forced discard effects and, as soon as the opponent adapt, you'll find Mindbreaktrap less useful. Acting forsighting, I can see how aggressively Tinkering for Trinisphere could me more useful than keeping Mindbreaktrap in hand waiting for it to be discarded. At now, I'm just thinking about 2 or 3 cards to play with the lone Trinisphere but I think this will be my sideboard of choice for the very next future:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Trinisphere
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Extirpate
1 Pyroblast
1 Darkblast
1 Fire/Ice

@SpellPierce over ManaDrain
Strategically speaking, addition of non blue lands such as Wasteland, Strip and LoA, will retard of a full turn ManaDrain being online to axe opponents spells. You usually have some moxen, a wasteland and a colored land. UU can be too slow to achieve if you are trading turns and land drop with opponent lands. On the contrary, they can made a land drop every turn, live with that mana and additional accelerants and try to resolve spells. During the early game, Spell Pierce can be online since first turn and you are going to have an "hard" counter after wasting your land's drop ready to be played with a single additional mana. My feeling about TheDeck being strong during early game such as during the mid-late game can be achieved swapping Drains for Pierces

You'll have a lower mana curve it would let you play comfortably with 27 mana fonts.
You can counter turn 1
You can waste and counter turn 2
As soon as you can reach the plateau of TheDeck denial's softlock, Pierce will block anything but creatures: you can deal with them with global removal as well
Pierce + Waste is a strong board/hand position against stax, combo and control. Aggrocontrol can't be stopped in this way because of his critters, but fish.dec aren't "creatures.dec" and nothing more: they are thin on mana base, killing duals and manlands usually is enough to slow them down while surprising their winning plan with unexpected counterspells for their own spells can be ovewhelming against a deck usually "wins small".

TheDeck can soft lock opponents very often and for long time: Shaman kill accelerants, Titan and Strips lands, Pierce is faster than Drain. Trinisphere could be resolved to enhance the denial plan against pletora of spells, LotV will reduce opponents YWill recursions and all the other cards can corally help this process ( Balance, Mindtwist, removals and so on ) of controlling their board.

I'm sure this list can function as well as the other proposed until now. Test it, if you like. Enjoy

(27)
8 CrySoLoMoxen
5 Strips
4 City of Brass
4 Fetchlands
2 Undeground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 LoA

(9)
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection

(4)
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Sundering Titan

(8)
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Fire/Ice
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mindtwist
1 Regrowth
1 Balance

(7)
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

(5)
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker

Sideboard
4 LotV
1 F/I
1 ReB
1 Pyro
1 Helm
1 Sphinx
1 Extirpate
1 Mindbreaktrap
1 Rebuild
1 HRecall
1 Deed
1 Trini


I agree with your proposal. I have never been satisfied with the drain+waste anti-synergy in the deck. Adding spell pierce is according to me a very interesting option : "counters and mana denial during early game + silver bullet during mid game" seems a better idea than "mana denial during early game + counter and silver bullet during mid game".
However, I feel like you could miss some "hard counters/mana acceleration" during mid game. As a consequence, I think I would add 2 mana drain, in place of 1 misdirection and 1 something else. As a consequence, the disruption package would be : 4 fow, 4 spell pierce and 2 drain.
According to me, this is a pretty  coherent package, that helps dealing with early and mid game.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2009, 10:58:17 am »

 this article, I came very close to running spell pierce over drain.  See the discussion throughout, and particularly in step 4. 
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« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2009, 12:08:57 pm »

Spell Pierce is definitely good in the beginning, but as the game progresses it becomes considerably worse. You're not ending the game anytime soon with this deck, which means eventually, even with your mana denial, you won't have hard counters. The anti-synergy with the colorless lands isn't that bad because we're running them in spell slots. This deck runs 6 colorless land, but also runs 5-6 more land than other drain decks. Frequently, my hands will have Waste/Strip+2 blue sources. You just have to make the decision as to which lands to play, turn 2 Drain or mana denial.
I also frequently found myself using Drain mana to fuel this deck, much, much more so than with Tezz, where Drain is often just Counterspell+sometimes look w/ top.
I can still see Spell Pierce being a viable choice, just not one I would make. Especially, Steve, as you said, it surely weakens the Tezz matchup.
Maybe a mix of Drains and Pierces is better?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 12:16:47 pm by MirariKnight » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2009, 02:54:53 pm »

I could justify Spell Pierce over Mana Drain only if the makeup of the rest of the deck was compensated for the lack of Mana Drain mana made available by said spell.  Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction, Mind Twist, Thirst for Knowledge, Tinker, and Cunning Wish all end up coming down a turn slower if Mana Drain isn't available.  I think that we would have to be careful assuming that Spell Pierce speeds up the deck.  Granted it comes down a turn or even two quicker than Mana Drain but all of the spells that have 2-3 colorless mana in their mana costs are effectively slowed.  It may make the deck perform better at a lower end but I think we sacrifice the mid game in doing so. 

I'm not sure it's a bad thing; I am simply making the statement that there is an reaction for every action, one that cannot be overlooked.  Steve, I haven't read your article because I do not have a premium account, so I'm unsure if this was addressed in the justification of Drain over Pierce.  I am sure that you have considered it whether or not it was stated in your article.   
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« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2009, 02:56:23 pm »

If you run Spell Pierce, you also almost certainly want 2 Shamans.  

EDIT: that's because Shaman will help make Spell Pierce more effective.   

Also, as I said in the article:

Quote
Running down the line, here is the countermagic I would say is best in the particular matchup:

Tezzeret: 22%: Mana Drain
Fish: 11%: Spell Snare
Stax: 11%: Annul
Dredge: 9%: Spell Pierce
TPS: 8%: Spell Pierce
Oath: 8%: Annul
Steel City Vault: 6%: Spell Pierce
MUD: 5%: Annul
G/x Beats: 5%: Spell Snare
Drain Tendrils: 3%: Mana Drain
Ad Nauseam: 3%: Spell Pierce
Dragon Combo: 3%: Annul
Bob Control: 3%: Mana Drain
Painter Control 1.5%: Mana Drain
Counterbalance Control 1.5%: Mana Drain

Some of these assignments may be arguable. Each of the four options is decent in most of these matchups, with a few exceptions. As such, I had to select which I felt was best in that particular matchup. Here’s the result:

Mana Drain: 31%
Spell Snare: 16%
Annul: 19%
Spell Pierce: 26%


It was on that basis that I selected Mana Drain.  But if the metagame ratios were tweaked slightly, OR, if you held a runoff vote, then Spell Pierce might have overtaken Drain. 

For example:

Tezzeret: 22%: Mana Drain
Fish: 11%: Mana Drain
Stax: 11%: Spell Pierce
Dredge: 9%: Spell Pierce
TPS: 8%: Spell Pierce
Oath: 8%: Spell Pierce
Steel City Vault: 6%: Spell Pierce
MUD: 5%: Mana Drain (Metalworker and creatures!)
G/x Beats: 5%: Mana Drain
Drain Tendrils: 3%: Mana Drain
Ad Nauseam: 3%: Spell Pierce
Dragon Combo: 3%: Spell Pierce
Bob Control: 3%: Mana Drain
Painter Control 1.5%: Mana Drain
Counterbalance Control 1.5%: Mana Drain

Spell Pierce: 48%
Mana Drain: 49%

Mana Drain BARELY wins.   If you tweak those metagame stats even slightly, then Mana Drain or Spell Pierce could come out ahead.   
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 03:20:46 pm by Smmenen » Logged

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