[Worldwake - New Card Discussion] Jace, The Mindsculptor

[BruiZar]

Spoiler season is early this time:

Jace, the Mindsculptor  
Planeswalker - Jace   
[+2]: Look at the top card of target player's library. You may put that card at the bottom of his or her library.
[-0]: Draw 3 cards, then put 2 cards from your hand on the top of your library in any order.
[-1]: Return target creature to its owner's hand.
[-12]: Exile all cards from target player's library. That player then shuffles their hand into their library.

Loyalty 3

It has free Brainstorms, it bounces all relevant tinker creatures, and, in long control matchups, can serve as a win condition by stripping your opponent's library and stripping their hands. It's also much easier to cast then Tezzeret due to Mana Drain. Can't screw with Vampiric or Mystical, but can screw with Imperial Seal. Hasty oath creatures will be able to connect once, killing the planeswalker.

Where do you think this card belongs? Shoebox or vintage decks.

[meadbert]

What is the initial loyalty?

[BruiZar]

3

[Mantis]

Loyalty = 3 according to MTGSalvation. Looks pretty good at first glance, definately at least test worthy for Vintage and definately will be played in other formats.

[honestabe]

I'd definitly test it

[Doomsday]

It doesn't bounce Inkwell, so not really "all relevant Tinker targets".  Also I don't get the comparison to Tezz, it doesn't immediately find you combo pieces, serve as 1/2 of a game winning combo, or provide a win condition.

[Worldslayer]

The "put two back" is not actually confirmed as far as I know, since the relevant portion of the card is still missing. Since there is no loyalty penalty at all, I think returning three would be a far safer guess. If he brainstorms he's a great card for control mirrors in effect, but not speed or cost. If he rearranges, he becomes a bad, overcosted, sorcery speed sensei's top after the initial activation. The fact that he can hide ridiculous cards from enemy Duress is worth noting, but his mana cost means Duress has probably come and gone by now.

It bounces all relevant Tinker creatures except inkwell Leviathan, which is the safest giant robot in a drain-heavy metagame. In long control matchups you probably still won't be using +2 to grow him, and I fail to see how 2UU is significantly easier than 3UU for mana drain fueled decks since most of the important spells you want to stop in the mirror either come down before drain is up (Dark Confidant) or are 3+ cmc (Thirst, Fact, Tinker, Tezzeret, Gifts, etc...)


In Standard, this card is a house for control even if he rearranges. In Vintage he does nothing control decks don't already do better, faster, and cheaper.

[Ummmyeh13]

From the japanese text the card had the numbers 3 and 2 on it...it is therefore confirmed as a brainstorm for 0 loyalty.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Massive CA either as repeatable Brainstorm or Confidant removal.

Bouncing Iona doesn't hurt.

[BC]

I think it looks like a pretty good all-purpose card.  The "Brainstorm" ability is actually better than Brainstorm the card, because it actually nets you a card, whereas Brainstorm the card just breaks even (albeit at Instant speed).

[policehq]

Man, right after releasing fetches, I'd think this guy could be the next Baneslayer Angel (ish). Just a guess, but most likely a massive house in Standard control.

[gkraigher]

this guy has the potential to dominate in vintage. seriously, most players are not packing any sort of removal for planeswalkers. if this guy hits the table, hes gonna do some really good things for the player who has him.

all of his abilities are good, although the 4th ability is almost irrelavent. fair mana cost. both main deck and sideboard worthy. i expect this guy to find a 1 lot spot in most blue decks.

i also think with this guy potentially looming around in the environment, darksteel colossus is done for.

[Yare]

This seems like it could be a contender.

The -12 ability isn't completely irrelevant in that if you're taking infinite turns it could be used as an alternate win condition (using it twice to get rid of all the cards then passing the turn).

[meadbert]

I would rather have Sower of Temptation.  For the same cost I can take control of their Darksteel Colossus instead of just bouncing it or if they have Dark Confidant out I can take that giving me an extra card per turn and losing them an extra card per turn.

As far as removal for this guy:  Creatures can remove Planeswalkers, thus Dark Confidant can remove it in two turns and Tarmogoyf and Qasali Pridemage can do it in a single turn.  Chain of Vapor is also common.

Since this guy loses to creatures of power > 2 anyway, why not just run Dimir Cutpurse which comes down a turn earlier(although becomes relevant the same turn) and gives you +2 card advantage?

If you are impressed with the immediate card advantage then why not just run Concentrate and draw 3 cards right then and there and not have to put any back?  

I am not saying this card is bad.  I just compared it to Sower and Cutpurse which have seen plenty of play and then Concentrate which has not, but is probably not terribly unplayable.  It is decent, but I doubt it is quite good enough to make a significant impact.

Now, if I were to try to break this card I would probably try to build Sex.dec all over again and do some sort of Witness/Mindsculptor/Time Walk recursion and go infinite that way.  This card is bad, but certainly not dead on its own and Witness is solid.  Also Intuition is conveniently the best unrestricted Tutor left in type 1 so that is a pluss.  It could even work with the AK engine so you could replay AK for 4 several time.  I doubt such a deck is competitive, but if I were to try that is the direction I would go in.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Sower can't come down *before* Iona.

[Worldslayer]

this guy has the potential to dominate in vintage. seriously, most players are not packing any sort of removal for planeswalkers. if this guy hits the table, hes gonna do some really good things for the player who has him.

all of his abilities are good, although the 4th ability is almost irrelavent. fair mana cost. both main deck and sideboard worthy. i expect this guy to find a 1 lot spot in most blue decks.

i also think with this guy potentially looming around in the environment, darksteel colossus is done for.

Assuming by "blue decks" you mean "TezzVault/TimeVault Control" (since I doubt TPS would consider this, Oath hopes to have already won by the time it has that much mana readily available not dedicated to finding/protecting Oath and disrupting, which leaves, roughly, The Deck and Some Random Fish Builds - of which only The Deck might find some utility in Jace, and still not readily more utility than the options already available), what card is Mind Sculptor better than in the "standard" list" excepting concessions to the metagame (i.e. the stock Fire/Ice)?

Ambivalent: Sower also doesn't die to Hellkite.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Ambivalent: Sower also doesn't die to Hellkite.

That's irrelevant: you could also hardcast Jace *after* Hellkite comes down.  It gains you 16 life if they attack it.  If they don't, you've taken 16 damage and they're likely out of dragons.

[Worldslayer]

You regularly take more than 8 damage from Hellkite thanks to Firebreathing and Orchard, meaning that it is far more than feasible for Hellkites to kill you even if he does land, but this is irrelevant. I don't support either for the Oath matchup when it comes down to it - I was merely pointing out that even in a matchup typically defined by the ability to bounce/remove big dudes repeatedly (assuming Oath resolves at all), a card which has the exact ability to repeatedly bounce big dudes still isn't any better than already available options, and is in fact worse due to his untimely demise at the hands of anything with haste. His BEST case is against Iona Oath when they don't have the Big Dudefellas plan, and even this is only good when you have counterspells online (otherwise they assumedly untap into KRec -> YWill -> KeyVault -> Timetwister -> Kill you.) and resolve THIS 4cc spell before they play and activate Oath rather than anything that involves you simply winning around it.

I just don't see him being a contender in this card pool and metagame. My Standard Grixis will love him.

[Vegeta2711]

Four mana and doesn't win the game or even put you in a direct position to win the game. Unplayable in Vintage.

People will try though, they always do.

[Anusien]

If you're already playing the other Jace, consider testing this in its place.

[theLastGnu]

It's definitely better than the other Jace, it nets you 1 card and significant card quality for 0 loyalty, instead of just 1 card for -1 or parity for +1.

That said, the other Jace is nigh unplayable.

[Malkizid]

Let's not forget that the +2 ability can potentially combo with Tunnel Vision.  This card looks good reguardless.  Maybe it won't see play in Vintage.  But it will for sure in Standard, and possibly Extended. 

[BruiZar]

You can bounce oath tokens but the problem is the sorcery speed preventing you from being able to keep bouncing Orchard Tokens.

What i like about this card is that he serves a whole lot of roles just like cryptic command did. It's a versatile card that does a little bit of everything.

Sure you can play Sensei's Divining Top+Voltaic Key+Sower Of Temptation, but this guy also deals with creatures and can do what Top and Key do together without requiring any further mana investment and it saves a bunch of slots.

I think this could have applications with Standstill.

[kkoie]

For vintage, I think the card is a waste of time.  If it didn't cost 2UU it might be worth consideration.  But as it stands it's a sorcery speed brainstorm for 4 mana.  I don't understand why anyone would seriously consider trying it in a deck.  How is this even close to other blue 4 drops like Fact or Fiction or Gifts Ungiven?  I look at it and I think... mediocre at best.  There are so many good blue cards out there, why would anyone waste a valuable slot on this?  I wouldn't even play it in a standard deck, let alone vintage.

[Cyberpunker]

  for a Dark Confidant that digs 2 cards deeper and cannot attack or block but can be pitched to force.

I would not run it. For   Tezzeret decks better have a massive effect like Gifts Ungiven or Fact or Fiction.

I think Concentrate is better than this and we would never play Concentrate. So I do not think it will see any play in Tezzeret decks.

And if you have infinite turns going on, then just use Tezzeret or your Robot to kill. No need to include this guy. It may see play in Vintage. But not in Tezzeret unless Night's Whisper and Dark Confidant were both restricted.

And even then...I would consider Concentrate before playing this guy. He comes out and gives you an immediate Brainstorm for   or an Unsummon for   . Why would you ever want to do that?

And as a Drain sink, Tezzeret is a much better planeswalker because he wins the next turn while this guy takes a while.

This guy however, is definetly an EDH auto include and is going to be a BOMB in Standard and Draft .

[BruiZar]

For vintage, I think the card is a waste of time.  If it didn't cost 2UU it might be worth consideration.  But as it stands it's a sorcery speed brainstorm for 4 mana.  I don't understand why anyone would seriously consider trying it in a deck.  How is this even close to other blue 4 drops like Fact or Fiction or Gifts Ungiven?  I look at it and I think... mediocre at best.  There are so many good blue cards out there, why would anyone waste a valuable slot on this?  I wouldn't even play it in a standard deck, let alone vintage.

The reason why I made this thread  is mostly because blue has been running out of unrestricted draw spells. I really don't know what to expect with this card in terms of playability. I mentioned Standstill before because you can basically cast spells without actually cracking your standstill. It makes standstill very strong because Jace can strip your entire deck and hand of cards if you don't crack the Standstill. Also, for any creatures that are already in play you can just bounce them without having to crack standstill so you will always force your opponent to crack your standstills.

I don't really see this competing for a slot in tezz builds

[honestabe]

And if you have infinite turns going on, then just use Tezzeret or your Robot to kill. No need to include this guy. It may see play in Vintage. But not in Tezzeret unless Night's Whisper and Dark Confidant were both restricted.

You never know...

[greggg230]

It's strange to me that people are only evaluating what Jace does the first turn he's out.  What does Dark Confidant do the first turn he's out?  Nothing.  At least New Jace better-than-cantrips.

It's clear that there are some matchups where he will be good and some where he won't.  This guy is a total bomb in the control mirror.  What control decks can easily answer a planeswalker?  Drawing one a turn is really nothing to sneeze at, either - the effect is WAY stronger than Dark Confidant, though of course JtMS costs twice as much.  He is probably also fine in the Stax matchup (though casting 2UU can be difficult, especially against Null Rod stax), though not nearly as good as against control .  On the other hand, he will probably not be good in many other matchups.  He is too slow against Storm and Dredge and Fish can probably kill him too easily.

I don't know if he's playable.  He might be comparable to Glen Elendra Archmage, a situationally really powerful 4 CMC card that just never finds a home anywhere.

[meadbert]

But are 4cc sorcery speed spells in the control mirror?

[BruiZar]