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Smmenen
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« on: December 20, 2009, 10:58:02 pm » |
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http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/18487_So_Many_Insane_Plays_The_2010_Guide_to_Vintage.htmlIn this article, I review the 4 Decks To Beat, the 7 Decks You Might Face, and 5 Dark Horses to consider. With each archetype, I explain it's strategy, highlight weaknesses, and describe its buzz and show any major variants. The Decks to Beat and the Decks You Might Face make up over 90% of the decks you’ll see in a Vintage top 8 and the vast majority of the decks you might face in the swiss rounds of a tournament. This article is most useful for beginners OR players who are rediscovering Vintage after a hiatus, BUT it's also useful for more experienced players who can use this gauntlet to prepare for upcoming tournaments and focus their thinking on what's truly important. If you become familiar with these 11 decks and test them on your gauntlet, you’ll be well prepared to have a blast playing Vintage and win some awesome prizes in the process.
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« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 01:59:05 pm by Smmenen »
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Sporkcore
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 12:27:24 am » |
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Excellent article. I thought it was very well put together and had excellent incite into the current/future Vintage meta. One question though, why not include a list for Vroman Oath and analysis for it under the Oath section as it seems like it tends to be popping up more and more over Elias Oath lists?
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I haev a first turn Llanowar Elf. He casts Ancestral, a slightly stronger card from the same set.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 12:31:19 am » |
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Excellent article. I thought it was very well put together and had excellent incite into the current/future Vintage meta. One question though, why not include a list for Vroman Oath and analysis for it under the Oath section as it seems like it tends to be popping up more and more over Elias Oath lists?
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it. Since I showed most variants, I was very, very close to doing the same for Vroath, and almost did. I don't really have an explanation for not including that variant, especially since I included most major variants of other archetypes. Perhaps I felt that having one Iona Oath list was enough? |
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« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 12:35:47 am by Smmenen »
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Sporkcore
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 12:35:20 am » |
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Maybe Vroman oath could be a feature or something in a future article as I would imagine both Oath lists do play slightly differently and have some different weaknesses.
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I haev a first turn Llanowar Elf. He casts Ancestral, a slightly stronger card from the same set.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 12:36:04 am » |
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Actually, I just reread the Oath section of the article, I mention the Vroman version, and suggest that people come here to find out more. So I mention it, and refer to it, but I didn't actually post a Vroath list.
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voltron00x
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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2009, 12:46:58 am » |
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Well obviously I'm happy you chose mine. Honestly if you look at the build that Austin ran at the NYSE IV on Saturday, the lines between the two versions are blurring a lot at this point. I advocate running at least 1 other creature, and dip heavy into red with more Thoughtseize / Duress effects, while Vroman Oath is just Iona main with more "big blue" spells, a different mana base to some extent, and a totally different SB. Even with that, the decks are very similar.
I have to believe there's some merit to the build I've discussed. It has won tournaments with 53, 46, 29, and 10 players in the last, what, 9 weeks?
Anyway I refer to these articles all year, they're an incredible resource to have for people who are looking to get into (or get back into) Vintage. Will we see another version of this on wizards.com again this year?
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“Win as if you were used to it, lose as if you enjoyed it for a change.”
Team East Coast Wins
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Smmenen
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2009, 12:49:53 am » |
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Anyway I refer to these articles all year, they're an incredible resource to have for people who are looking to get into (or get back into) Vintage. Will we see another version of this on wizards.com again this year?
This article is not intended to be a year in review, although I will be writing one for SCG, not Wizards earlhy next year. It takes up too much time to write one for Wizards, despite the additional press. This article is very much forward looking in its orientation, and trying to very simply and clearly explain what each of these decks is about. |
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Campee
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2009, 01:42:18 am » |
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Annul in Tezzeret?  |
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MirariKnight
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Lotus, YawgWill, Lotus, Go
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2009, 01:44:59 am » |
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Annul in Tezzeret? It's quite good vs. Stax |
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Sporkcore
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2009, 01:51:27 am » |
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Annul in Tezzeret? It's quite good vs. Stax And it's good against Oath, and not terrible in the mirror to counter opponents Time Vault/Voltaic Key. |
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I haev a first turn Llanowar Elf. He casts Ancestral, a slightly stronger card from the same set.
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Marske
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Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2009, 04:16:59 am » |
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@Steve, Wow, thanks for the huge props in using my decklist (and the name drop) regarding TPS.  I think seeing my build being used in such an article is a tremendous honor. I enjoyed this article tremendously as you really break all decks down quite nicely. I think this is a must read for anybody getting (back) into Vintage and it's worth getting premium for. Keep up the tremendous work you're doing during 2010 and obviously the best of wishes, have a nice holiday ! |
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Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane. "Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines  |
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cjva
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2009, 04:38:06 am » |
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Being a rather lonely vintage player in my town, articles like this is pretty much where I get my information about possible metas from when I'm going to play vintage at a larger event.
Nice article as usual, and one of my main reasons to actually pay for a premium account on SCG.
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DuKeLiO
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2009, 04:59:55 am » |
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sean1i0
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2009, 06:30:35 am » |
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Great article, Steve. It's always nice to have a concise place to look when trying to analyze thoughts and I find breaking the metagame like this does just that. Thanks for continuing great work for us all!
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Smmenen
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2009, 05:21:08 pm » |
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Yeah, I could have included Remora in the Dark Horses list. I also could have included Goblins and Elves, or other decks. The key part of the article was the Decks To Beat and the Decks You Might Face. The Dark Horses were their for flavor, to give people an idea of other decks that they could pick up. My previous articles like this have been very long, I think too long. I wanted to write something that covered everything that was important, but was EASY to read. I wanted this to be MOST useful for people who are getting back into Vintage or trying to catch up with the format after a hiatus. |
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meadbert
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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2009, 05:23:35 pm » |
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Annul in Tezzeret? It's quite good vs. Stax And it's good against Oath, and not terrible in the mirror to counter opponents Time Vault/Voltaic Key. Lets not forget Null Rod. |
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T1: Arsenal
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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2009, 01:19:19 am » |
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Yeah, I could have included Remora in the Dark Horses list. I also could have included Goblins and Elves, or other decks.
Both Goblins and Elves are guaranteed to get better with future printings. Anything remotely Bazaar-like on Bazaar Trader vastly improves the Earwig Squad deck since its greatest weakness is easily the lack of draw fixing. Any decent disruption elf vastly improves the Elves combo. Both decks should be strongly considered whenever a new member of their tribe is printed. Even relatively innocuous-seeming printings may be important. Ie. I honestly believe that the printing of Goblin Chieftain is what makes the Goblin tribe even remotely playable right now. |
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Tha Gunslinga
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De-Errata Mystical Tutor!
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« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2009, 09:20:58 am » |
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Yeah, I could have included Remora in the Dark Horses list. I also could have included Goblins and Elves, or other decks.
Both Goblins and Elves are guaranteed to get better with future printings. Well, they certainly can't get worse, since no one plays them now. |
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Don't tolerate splittin'
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Shean
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« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2009, 01:11:28 pm » |
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Nice article Steve. Thanks for using my Mono Red Stax list!  |
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Team GWS
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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2009, 01:29:36 pm » |
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Well, they certainly can't get worse, since no one plays them now.
Not true. A shitty goblin build won a large European tourney this summer (like no fetches/Kiki-Jiki main shitty), Scrubbing Bubbles' build top8-ed in their area, and Monomax top8-ed a medium large tourney in Canada with our build. Like I've said before, it's arguably the most underplayed deck in Vintage. |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2009, 03:03:05 pm » |
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Nice article Steve. Thanks for using my Mono Red Stax list! Thanks! I hope this article can be a great resource to folks. Yeah, I could have included Remora in the Dark Horses list. I also could have included Goblins and Elves, or other decks.
Both Goblins and Elves are guaranteed to get better with future printings. That's not actually true, since 'better' is relative. Even if Elves and Goblins are given additional printings, there might be hosers printed that are even stronger than those printings, making it a net loss. Not to mention, if other archetypes improve at a faster pace, then Elves and Goblins can be left behind in the evolutionary race. Goblins is just a Jester's Cap deck. I don't see anything particularly special about it unless you feel that an inordinate proportion of the field is currently vulnerable to that mode of attack. |
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meadbert
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« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2009, 03:47:17 pm » |
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Goblins is just a Jester's Cap deck.
It is more complicated than that. Goblins has a strong Stax matchup and that is not on the back of Jester's Cap effects. |
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T1: Arsenal
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Smmenen
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« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2009, 04:46:49 pm » |
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Goblins is just a Jester's Cap deck.
It is more complicated than that. Goblins has a strong Stax matchup and that is not on the back of Jester's Cap effects. Granted. Not even Tezzeret is simply about Time Vault. I was making a generalization. |
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AmbivalentDuck
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Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.
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« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2009, 05:35:19 pm » |
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It's hard to imagine foils to Goblins stronger than Engineered Plague, Balance, early Tinker->Sphinx, and Drain/Fow. It's hard to imagine foils to Elves stronger than Chalice@1, Engineered Plague, and Drain/FoW. Printing stronger creature hate would probably break Standard. Goblins is just a Jester's Cap deck. I don't see anything particularly special about it unless you feel that an inordinate proportion of the field is currently vulnerable to that mode of attack.
Tez, (Iona) Oath, ANT, and "The Deck" all run 3 or fewer win cons. Restated, most of the field loses to a Bitter Ordeal on turn 2. Also, I agree with meadbert's thoughts on the Stax matchup. Goblins is also unusual in having an unrestricted tutor for almost every spell in the deck. |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2009, 05:42:37 pm » |
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It's hard to imagine foils to Goblins stronger than Engineered Plague, Balance, early Tinker->Sphinx, and Drain/Fow. It's hard to imagine foils to Elves stronger than Chalice@1, Engineered Plague, and Drain/FoW. Printing stronger creature hate would probably break Standard.
They could print Goblins Specific or Elves specific hosers, though. But, again, it's not just about hate. It's about other printings. Dredge decks were a product of printings in the last couple of years. Things like that can create new decks that make Elves or Goblins weaker in the metagame as a whole. Goblins is just a Jester's Cap deck. I don't see anything particularly special about it unless you feel that an inordinate proportion of the field is currently vulnerable to that mode of attack.
Tez, (Iona) Oath, ANT, and "The Deck" all run 3 or fewer win cons. Restated, most of the field loses to a Bitter Ordeal on turn 2. Then why isn't Bitter Ordeal played more? |
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« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 05:45:21 pm by Smmenen »
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refellos
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« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2009, 05:53:49 pm » |
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When our team was testing goblins heavily, we found that most decks had really hard matchups against goblins. escpecially fish and ichi. oath was definitely the hardest matchup for goblins but was winable. The inclusion of the tech card mogg salvage helped against the tez matchup which was a favorable match anyway but made it easier. And it was an unexpected card to see. . Great article Stephen |
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Team Scrubby Bubbles: We suck, but at least we are better than you!!
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AmbivalentDuck
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Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.
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« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2009, 06:50:15 pm » |
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Then why isn't Bitter Ordeal played more?
Two reasons: 1) It's difficult to support as a primary kill strategy. 4 fetches + 5 strip + 2 Prospector wasn't enough for Gobs to want a playset in the sideboard. I needed to go up to 8 fetches. 2) Because you have to run a fairly high fetch/strip count to support it, it's under tested. It's probably a bomb in the modern control mirror. |
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pierce
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Part Time Vintage Guru for Hire
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« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2009, 07:04:06 pm » |
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i've heard this same argument for sadistic sacrement too. but with tezz, I can let that resolve and win with bobs still. you would have to have at least two to truly present a threat.
but this isn't about sad sac, or bitter ordeal. or goblins, really. It's about a good article that will help new players grasp what t1 is about, thus allowing the meandeck machine to continue to feed on the lotus laden tournament dreams of noobs.
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More like Yangwill!
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AmbivalentDuck
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Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.
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« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2009, 07:59:39 pm » |
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i've heard this same argument for sadistic sacrement too. but with tezz, I can let that resolve and win with bobs still.
Assuming Extract for 3, I take Vault, Robot, Will. Now, I run 30+ gobs, you have 4 Bob. You also have to assume that a fair amount of the time, you lost those 3 cards to a 5/3. Confidence in your ability to race is not high. |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2009, 12:59:26 am » |
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i've heard this same argument for sadistic sacrement too. but with tezz, I can let that resolve and win with bobs still. you would have to have at least two to truly present a threat.
but this isn't about sad sac, or bitter ordeal. or goblins, really. It's about a good article that will help new players grasp what t1 is about, thus allowing the meandeck machine to continue to feed on the lotus laden tournament dreams of noobs.
To paraphrase an old adage: What's good for Vintage is good for Meandeck |
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