[New Card Discussion] Lodestone Golem

[BruiZar]

overlooked trike, edited my post

[madmanmike25]

Never EVER play Black lotus in MUD decks

This is one of the worst suggestions I have seen in a long time.  You have some serious explaining to do, or better yet just delete that part of your post because I doubt you can substantiate your claim.

There is no "perhaps" when considering Lodestone for MUD decks, he's going right in.  I have been playing MUD (with Black Lotus) at the last 3 local tournaments and have gone 1st, 3rd, and split for 1st/2nd.  I  have juggernauts in my build and I can assure you it is quite good.  Now my deck will get even better with Lodestone.  I'll probably be posting my list if anyone is interested, MUD generally doesn't draw that much attention.  Anyways, thanks to whoever designed this card!

This card is tailor made for MUD.  I can see it in being tested in mono red Stax as well, since it will only make your Welders cost 1R.  I would have played this card if it were a 3/3.  Just wow...

Mike

[Rome]

I just simply love the Jug~O~Sphere

Agro shop and stax just both put get a nice soft lock + clock card in this guy.

Very Excited

[beder]

In the list posted before my post, it replaces thorns, and it's a misstake IMHO.
And stax never needed Spheres 5-8, nor a finisher, nor a sphere that doesn't hit Moxen (aka doesn't help you to gain the board advantage and/or establish the lock).
I would definatly play Chalice of the Void before this guy in Stax, as 5c stax is a BOARD CONTROL strategy, and this guy doesn't fit this really well.

According to me, saying this is like saying "blue control based deck are a control strategy, they don't not need a combo finish with vault/key" or "TPS is a combo strategy, it does not need a tinker/robot plan as an alternative kill". According to me, if stax is a pure "board control strategy" it is because it didn't have any finisher that fits really well with this strategy, meaning that it finishes and at the same time contributes really to the overall strategy (and being not too expensive for a build not using lots of 2 brow mana lands or metalworker).
The only available finisher for stax right now is according to me "Smokestack" : IMO, this is the stax finisher, the card that ends the game. A slow one but a card that ends the game. Let's have a look at it : When entering, it does nothing. The next turn, it forces to remove one permanent (generally the less usefull one).
I would say that the smokestack effect starts ending the game 3 turns after it entered the board, either because it was set to 2 or because even set to one, opponent does not have lots of permanents. And finally, a smoketack on board for more that 3 turns is like game over, most of the time.
Given that stax needs consistency, I feel like having 8 finishers instead of 4 is a pretty good idea...

Sure, one could say : "This card does not contribute to board control strategy". Well, as for sphere, disrupting any non artifact spells - creatures, sorcery, instant, enchantment... is a good way to indirectly ensure a board control through disruption of the overall game plan. The less an opponent game plan advances, the less its board should be developed. Naturally, this has to be combined with other pieces of disruption, which shouldn't be too much of a problem for a shop build, any kind of shop builds...
But I may have a too simplistic point of view, who knows...

Now, in a MUD list or Mono brown Stax list, and even perhaps in BR stax list, all playing SPheres, thorns and Chalice of the void, i would really consider it instead of Suchis in my MUD list (but acting as Juggernauts 5-8, the sphere effect is a bonus) and instead of thorn in monobrown staw and BR stax (but only because i actually face a Fish HEavy metagame, if the metagame switch again to less fih decks, i would definatly turn back to Thorn of Amethyst in MonoBrown and BR stax, which are better against combo and control combo decks).

I would say the opposite : juggernaut are now "Lodestone" 5-8, but weak ones. The sphere effect is according to me not a bonus at all. It is what makes this card interesting. Even if it was only 4/3 for instance, I would still strongly consider it.

[Neonico]

Never EVER play Black lotus in MUD decks

This is one of the worst suggestions I have seen in a long time.  You have some serious explaining to do, or better yet just delete that part of your post because I doubt you can substantiate your claim.

There is no "perhaps" when considering Lodestone for MUD decks, he's going right in.  I have been playing MUD (with Black Lotus) at the last 3 local tournaments and have gone 1st, 3rd, and split for 1st/2nd.  I  have juggernauts in my build and I can assure you it is quite good.  Now my deck will get even better with Lodestone.  I'll probably be posting my list if anyone is interested, MUD generally doesn't draw that much attention.  Anyways, thanks to whoever designed this card!

This card is tailor made for MUD.  I can see it in being tested in mono red Stax as well, since it will only make your Welders cost 1R.  I would have played this card if it were a 3/3.  Just wow...

Mike

I have never said no to play lodestone golem in MUD, I said perhaps/no in 5c stax lists, and perhaps/yes in Monobrown stax and BR stax.
This card fits really well an Aggro/disruption or aggro/control strategy (Mud strategy). It doesn't fit a board control strategy better than chalice of the void and thorn of methyst, because it doesn't slow the Board/mana developpement.

@Beder : I explained myself badly if you can compare what i said to "blue control based deck are a control strategy, they don't not need a combo finish with vault/key" or "TPS is a combo strategy, it does not need a tinker/robot plan as an alternative kill".

5c Stax allready play tinker/welder+robots. What i wanted to say is that when considering lodestone golem in a 5cStax build, the most important part is the disruption it provides, the body is just a bonus, and shouldn't be the main consideration for his inclusion or exclusion. And the disruption provided by the golem in a pure prison strategy is worst than the other aviable lock piece we don't even actually play in a 5cStax build (i insist on this, in BR, mono brown stax, it's different, and an obvious inclusion in MUD).

On the black lotus exclusion in MUD builds, i won't argue. If you think you should play it, go for it. I just don't. It's a dangerous card to have in opening hands when you evaluate your mulligans, it's not a permanent, and even when everything is okay when you play it, the deck doesn't really need it. I have alot of succes with MUD builds lately (I did only one bad performance with the deck in 2009) and i never played black lotus.

[kkoie]

Never EVER play Black lotus in MUD decks

On the black lotus exclusion in MUD builds, i won't argue. If you think you should play it, go for it. I just don't. It's a dangerous card to have in opening hands when you evaluate your mulligans, it's not a permanent, and even when everything is okay when you play it, the deck doesn't really need it. I have alot of succes with MUD builds lately (I did only one bad performance with the deck in 2009) and i never played black lotus.

I know you said you won't argue.  But I'm still baffled after reading this thread.  I don't quite understand what the detracting factor is in using black lotus in MUD?  It's mana acceleration.  It's sole purpose is to power out early, big turn plays.  At least in a workshop deck.  How is that a bad thing in MUD??  Sure it's one shot.  But it is a permanent.  Do not confuse it with dark ritual.  It's just a permanent that only works once.

[d0rsal]

@madmanmike25

yes pls post your mud list, i'd like to compare lists & see where they diverge.  the lodestone golem is tailor-made for a mud deck.

here's the mud list i'm running:

5 mox
lotus
sol ring
mana crypt
4 workshops
4 ancient tombs
4 factories
4 wastes
strip
tolarian academy
4 juggs   <---  4 lodestone golems
4 triskelions
4 metal workers
2 karns
2 arcbound ravagers
4 CoVs
4 relics
4 Spheres
1 trinisphere
1 crucible
1 staff of domination
1 SDT
2 SoFI

peace


*mods, let me just go ahead & apologize up front for a decklist w/o any card explanations, but its just mud & i figure there's no explanation needed*

[Red Irish]

Adieu Juggernaut, we had some nice times together:

Le Roi est mort. Vive le Roi!

Thanks are due to the development team, a useful card of this calibre for Stax/Aggro Shop was long overdue.

[Sporkcore]

Does this card mean that Travis is going to change his TMD name?

[Neonico]

I wouldn't build a MUD deck playing some Lodestone Golem INSTEAD of Juggernauts, i would play the golem WITH juggys.

About the lotus in MUD discussion :
I don't want to play more than 26 mana sources in MUD. I think it's the right number.
So my manabase is 18 lands (2 factories 2 city of traitors 4 ancient tomb 4 workshop 1 tolarian Academy 4 wasteland 1 strip Mine) and 8 artefacts (5 moxen 1 crypt 1 vault 1 sol ring). Black lotus isn't better in MUD than any of those cards.

If i needed a 27th mana source, i would definitly play 3rd city of trairos, 3rd Mishra's Factory and even perhaps Grim monolith, instead of black lotus. Let me explain : Okay, black lotus is another way to reach the 3 mana threshold on turn 1 consistantly, mainly to play Metalwoker. So, when everything is all right, its great. But when you keep with 1 land and lotus hand, to play a turn 1 sphere + chalice for example, and get your land wasted, you will allmost allways loose.

The fact that it's not a permanent, when considering siding in cards like Smokestacks, and even with just tangle wires maindeck, make it worse than a 19th land.

My actual MUD tests list is :
26 manas
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Juggernaut
3 Razromane Masticore
2 Duppliquant
4 sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire

In a non Null rod version, i would go :
-3 Rod -1 Thorn of Amethyst +2 SoFI +2 arcbound ravager
-3 Razormane +3 Triskelion
-2 Duppliquant +2 karn

On a side note, i really consider this :


instead of mishra's Factory, in a metal worker build any thought about that ?

[Gekoratel]

@Neonico - If your not running Welder(I realize its MUD) or Smokestack in your maindeck so why not play Lotus over Mana Vault.  Mana Vault is essentially a one time use that only adds +2 mana.  If your tapping Mana Vault to Wire then it hasn't been used and it doesn't matter which of those cards it is (Lotus or Vault).  You already have a ton of permanents so against any deck not running Crucible you should have no worries about a perm race.  Personally I'd rather have more explosive hands when I don't draw Metalworker than a 19th land.  But even if you don't want to run it over the 19th land what about Mana Vault?

[kkoie]

I would have to agree.  I think not running black lotus in the deck is a mistake, and you are robbing yourself of some potentially explosive opening plays.  While I have not done the math, I would be willing to theorize that statistically, a MUD deck with black lotus vs. one without, would perform better over the course of any big tournament.  That and a vast majority of MUD decks on deckcheck and morphling are sporting black lotus, vs. those that are not.

Regarding dread statuary.  Overall I would say factories are better because of the following:
-  Factories have a cheaper activiation cost
-  In multiples, factories can pump each other, resulting in a larger toughness vs. Statuary which cannot.  Also factories can pump themselves when defending, which also results in a larger toughness vs. statuary.

- The only positive point for statuary is that, on a one on one comparison, statuary have a larger power than mishra factories.

[zeus-online]

I wouldn't build a MUD deck playing some Lodestone Golem INSTEAD of Juggernauts, i would play the golem WITH juggys.

About the lotus in MUD discussion :
I don't want to play more than 26 mana sources in MUD. I think it's the right number.
So my manabase is 18 lands (2 factories 2 city of traitors 4 ancient tomb 4 workshop 1 tolarian Academy 4 wasteland 1 strip Mine) and 8 artefacts (5 moxen 1 crypt 1 vault 1 sol ring). Black lotus isn't better in MUD than any of those cards.

If i needed a 27th mana source, i would definitly play 3rd city of trairos, 3rd Mishra's Factory and even perhaps Grim monolith, instead of black lotus. Let me explain : Okay, black lotus is another way to reach the 3 mana threshold on turn 1 consistantly, mainly to play Metalwoker. So, when everything is all right, its great. But when you keep with 1 land and lotus hand, to play a turn 1 sphere + chalice for example, and get your land wasted, you will allmost allways loose.

The fact that it's not a permanent, when considering siding in cards like Smokestacks, and even with just tangle wires maindeck, make it worse than a 19th land.

I honestly didn't think i'd let myself get drawn into such a ridiculos discussion. But here goes:
Lets say that you start with 2 mana sources....Either you start with say Mountain, Mountain or Lotus, mountain...Which one is better? The double mountain hand would probably loose you the game, while the lotus hand atleast lets you play metalworker allowing for some pretty ridiculos turn 2 action.

Okay then there's the mana vault situation...Obviously you'd rather have black lotus on your opening hand then mana vault since it would allow you to play a 4 cost artifact instead of a 3 cost....It might even allow for more mana then that if the land is a workshop...Going Turn1 thorn, lodestone golem is pretty good. (Or i suspect it's pretty good, haven't played with the golem yet)

Back to the 2 land hand...Unless those lands tap for more then 1 you will loose with your predicted hand of chalice and sphere...Your best option is turn 1 land, chalice 0...Which is nice...Turn 2 sphere...And then you've just locked yourself out anyway. Since you can't run more then 4 shops (and 4 ancient tomb, 4 city of traitors) You will need more acceleration, where lotus is definetly the best accelerant ever printed.

Lotus leads to such amazing turn 1 or 2 plays that it should definetly be in just about any deck in magic that is allowed to play with it.

The only deck i would agree to cutting lotus in would be Manaless ichorid. Lotus is way too good to cut.

[Bill Copes]

To get the discussion back toward the card itself, what do y'all think about running him in place of Sphere/Thorn in an Ici Li style of mono-red stax?  If applied here, it seems that it can facilitate multiple roles (faster clock beyond welder beats/ring recursion, soft-lock piece, defense) in what was previously a linear, lock out or go home type of deck.

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod
3 Tangle Wire  (or 4 tangle,  sans Vault or Crypt)
1 Trinisphere

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Barbarian Ring
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Mountain

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

[Stormanimagus]

To get the discussion back toward the card itself, what do y'all think about running him in place of Sphere/Thorn in an Ici Li style of mono-red stax?  If applied here, it seems that it can facilitate multiple roles (faster clock beyond welder beats/ring recursion, soft-lock piece, defense) in what was previously a linear, lock out or go home type of deck.

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod
3 Tangle Wire  (or 4 tangle,  sans Vault or Crypt)
1 Trinisphere

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Barbarian Ring
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Mountain

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

I'd be dropping Smokestack though in that list. Smokestack served as the finisher before and now Lodestone is a finisher of sorts.

I'm not sure about that call but it seems correct

-Storm

[pierce]

but what will mark trogdon do with his wirecats now?

[gkraigher]

my shop deck went like this:

4 mishra's workshop
3 city of traitors
3 ancient tomb
3 crystal vein
1 strip mine
4 wasteland
1 ghost quarter
1 tolarian academy
1 mikokoro, center of the sea

4 black vise
3 karn silver golem
4 thorn of amethyst
4 sphere of resistance
4 tangle wire
4 smokestacks
3 chalice of the void
3 crucible of worlds
2 null rod
1 trinisphere
1 mox emerald
1 mox sapphire
1 mox pearl
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
1 black lotus
1 sol ring

-1 mikokoro, center of the sea
-1 karn silver golemn
-2 black vise

+4 loadstone golem


seems a lot better.  a lot lot better.


btw, the person who suggested cutting black lotus from the deck might be right. 

[Neonico]

@Neonico - If your not running Welder(I realize its MUD) or Smokestack in your maindeck so why not play Lotus over Mana Vault.  Mana Vault is essentially a one time use that only adds +2 mana.  If your tapping Mana Vault to Wire then it hasn't been used and it doesn't matter which of those cards it is (Lotus or Vault).  You already have a ton of permanents so against any deck not running Crucible you should have no worries about a perm race.  Personally I'd rather have more explosive hands when I don't draw Metalworker than a 19th land.  But even if you don't want to run it over the 19th land what about Mana Vault?

You of course run Crucible in Sideboard in MUD.
And i personnally also run smokestacks sideboard in my actual metagame.

And in a deck like MUD, the problem isn't the +X mana (like generating a +2 instead of +3), it's how consistantly you'll have 3 manas+ on turn 1, and how it will increase on turn 2 and 3. ANd in that math, you have to consider opponent null rods/waste etc...

The fact is that we actually face alot of Noble Fish here in europe. Since Noble fish is played, i have seen so many MUD players loosing games going Land lotus something big, getting wasted and loosing from there. I only play shop for a year now, but the most performing shop players in France dropped black lotus from MUD lists a long time ago, and if i wasn't convinced at all at first, i must admit that the testings tend to make me agree. It sometimes leads to bad mulligan decisions, and i don't like that.

I don't even mention the permanent wars (when you drop lotus without needing the mana) that rely on gorilla shaman, where i will allways prefer a 1 or 2 mana artefact acceleration than a lotus.

In conclusion, in a colorless shop deck, i wouldn't play lotus. I shouldn't have say never ever play it, but you should try to analyse every hands with lotus, how you play them, if it's a real bonus, and what are the drawbacks.

@Zeus online : Your exeamples are totally irrevelant since we speack of MUD (Mono Brown aggro shop decks). As i said, in any build with colored spells, i would include lotus, just not in MUD. And lotus would be a 2 mana land or a 2 mana artefact that gives 3  if i wanted one more mana source. And playing shop, the first rull is to mulligan if you're not sure to have at least 3 mana on turn 2. A mountain moutain hand in a stacker build often leads to an auto mulligan for me (even if it's mountain, welder mountain and bazaar, which is a risky hands against many decks packing fire/ice or drakblast). It's even more right with a lotus mountain hand.

[jbrauer99]

This is simply amazing!  I have dreamed of an artifact sphere with legs, and here it is.  The fact that it is strictly better than JUGGERNAUGHT (plays defense) is insane.  I always imagined a 2/2 sphere for 3.  That would have been a new toy.  This is a lethal weapon.  I echo the sentiments that this may not be the right tool for 5c stax but I am very excited about all the doors this opens for workshop.  I also think wizards did a great job here, though it is going to be interesting to see how it plays out in the meta.  In the eternal struggle drains and shops have always been nemeses, where an eras builds determine predator and prey.  Currently it seems like drains and shops are fairly balanced, but drains win the meta-game.  Meaning shops have a hard time beating everything else while maintaining their drain matchup.  Additionally, the meta right now can be considered a dark confidant meta, and it turns out stax has a hard time dealing with the incremental advantage.  Lodestone changes this paradigm.  It puts pressure on life total instead of board position, while advancing board pressure simultaneously.  While on the surface this golem may not seem like a great weapon against tezz and the dreaded vault key, its going to strengthen shops position in the meta, and change the way shop approaches the drain matchup.  Kudos

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

The fact is that we actually face alot of Noble Fish here in europe. Since Noble fish is played, i have seen so many MUD players loosing games going Land lotus something big, getting wasted and loosing from there. I only play shop for a year now, but the most performing shop players in France dropped black lotus from MUD lists a long time ago, and if i wasn't convinced at all at first, i must admit that the testings tend to make me agree. It sometimes leads to bad mulligan decisions, and i don't like that.]

Most of the time, I'd consider opening with land lotus, Something big in a shop based strategy a missplay. Even in mud/ more aggroish builds I'd recomend a multiple lock piece opener. It's extremely likely to get openers with 3-2 mana 2ball and cotv. Even if they have counter waste, you should be able to drop another lock piece turn 2 befor they can get the cat wizard on the table. If this is not the case, you should have mulled. I like lotus because it let's you drop more lock componants turn 1 (at this point if they want to waste a lad drop against a land heavy deck like mud/shop it sounds good to me) or set up a really great turn 2.

[BruiZar]

Regarding dread statuary.  Overall I would say factories are better because of the following:
-  Factories have a cheaper activiation cost
-  In multiples, factories can pump each other, resulting in a larger toughness vs. Statuary which cannot.  Also factories can pump themselves when defending, which also results in a larger toughness vs. statuary.

- The only positive point for statuary is that, on a one on one comparison, statuary have a larger power than mishra factories.

You are missing the fact that Metal Worker can pay the mana for dread and thus beat for 4 where mishra's factory would beat for only 2. The problem is that it is too reliant on an active metal worker

[Neonico]

The fact is that we actually face alot of Noble Fish here in europe. Since Noble fish is played, i have seen so many MUD players loosing games going Land lotus something big, getting wasted and loosing from there. I only play shop for a year now, but the most performing shop players in France dropped black lotus from MUD lists a long time ago, and if i wasn't convinced at all at first, i must admit that the testings tend to make me agree. It sometimes leads to bad mulligan decisions, and i don't like that.]

Most of the time, I'd consider opening with land lotus, Something big in a shop based strategy a missplay. Even in mud/ more aggroish builds I'd recomend a multiple lock piece opener. It's extremely likely to get openers with 3-2 mana 2ball and cotv. Even if they have counter waste, you should be able to drop another lock piece turn 2 befor they can get the cat wizard on the table. If this is not the case, you should have mulled. I like lotus because it let's you drop more lock componants turn 1 (at this point if they want to waste a lad drop against a land heavy deck like mud/shop it sounds good to me) or set up a really great turn 2.

Land lotus 1 or 3 lock piece can be even more devastating for a shop layer facing a wasteland deck that Land Lotus something big.
Your land got wasted, you loose. Lock piece or beater, lotus leads to bad mulligan decisions, and it's even worse when your lock pieces play against you.

On a side note, goig beater first then lock piece each turns can also be a winning strategy against many decks (basicly, all but control combo decks) so it became my main line of play considering the metagame i face. For example, against another denial strategy (mirror, fish) being the beatdown early in the match often negates the denial from your opponent. Wasting a land against a shop player that got a triske/Juggy is totally tempo neutral, and doesnt solve the problem you're facing.

[kkoie]

Do you even own a lotus?

Seriously though I think we are getting close to the "Tastes Great" vs "Less Filling" level of the discussion.  I don't see Neonico changing his mind, nor him changing ours.

In a Lodestone Golem related front, I am still debating on which shop deck he is more suited for, MUD or Aggroshop?  My concern with using him in MUD is getting hated out by things like Null Rod, though I admit it has been some months since I have had the opportunity to play in a Vintage Tournament.

Also, is it realistic to play 13 sphere effects in a deck, or are you going overboard?  Would it be best to just substitue some of your existing "spheres" with a golem?

[Red Irish]

In a Lodestone Golem related front, I am still debating on which shop deck he is more suited for, MUD or Aggroshop?  My concern with using him in MUD is getting hated out by things like Null Rod, though I admit it has been some months since I have had the opportunity to play in a Vintage Tournament.

Also, is it realistic to play 13 sphere effects in a deck, or are you going overboard?  Would it be best to just substitue some of your existing "spheres" with a golem?

I'm for slotting him into my Shop Aggro, in place of Juggernaut and along with Sculpting Steel, which, a great defence against Sphinx and Leviathan, now allows me to copy 5/3's with sphere-like effects: we'll see how it works out. As far as fearing Null Rod goes, I run them main deck and the more recent MUD decks I've seen have dropped Metalworker and included Null Rod: there are just too many decks running Vault combo these days...

[TheBrassMan]

I won a (small) tournament with a Lodestone Stax deck this Monday.  While clearly the card is tailor made for MUD and shop aggro, I don't personally think it improves either deck enough to make it as good as Stax already was.  I would much rather play this in a Stax list, and I think it adds more to a deck *without* aggressive elements than a deck with one.  For people looking for results, I was not disappointed with the card.  I never lost a game where it resolved, but of course it didn't always resolve, and I didn't always have the mana for it.  It wasn't mind blowing, but it did everything I wanted it to.  It does not solve Shop's fundamental problem of answering Rebuild effects however, though it does help.  I'm thoroughly convinced it improves the deck, but time will tell if it improves the deck enough to change the metagame.

[unixtreme]

Since the printing of Lodestone Golem I've been testing some variants of stax/mud decks with it, actually I'm playing the next list, which performs very well.

Aggro Mud

// Lands 18

4 Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Mishra's Factory

// Creatures 13

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Juggernaut
3 Razormane Masticore
2 Duplicant

// Spells

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
4 Tangle Wire

It's cool but I'll make some changes with further testing.

[MirariKnight]

I won a (small) tournament with a Lodestone Stax deck this Monday.  While clearly the card is tailor made for MUD and shop aggro, I don't personally think it improves either deck enough to make it as good as Stax already was.  I would much rather play this in a Stax list, and I think it adds more to a deck *without* aggressive elements than a deck with one.  For people looking for results, I was not disappointed with the card.  I never lost a game where it resolved, but of course it didn't always resolve, and I didn't always have the mana for it.  It wasn't mind blowing, but it did everything I wanted it to.  It does not solve Shop's fundamental problem of answering Rebuild effects however, though it does help.  I'm thoroughly convinced it improves the deck, but time will tell if it improves the deck enough to change the metagame.

What type of Stax list did you play it in? I can't imagine Lodestone ever going into 5C but it definitely would work in the B/R or Mono-R lists, or maybe even something entirely new.

[Rome]

Ive been testing it and my 5c stax and its working well. What is your reasoning for saying it wont work well in 5c? More cases than not they can remove the thorns and place this in it and hey look now your on a clock.

My version is a bit different than most but I like it in the build.

[Neonico]

@whoever asked : It's not the fact that i don't own a lotus that makes me not play it in MUD. I don't own a power but i'm allways full powered when i play vintage tournaments (both proxy or borrowing power)

From my initial testings, the card is really the worst in 5c Stax, where you can't allow your opponent developp his board with mana accelerants in the first turns. Lodestone golem can't prevent this, so its not good for the deck. I lost a really high number of games because of that aspect, and i still think that both Thorn of amethyst and chalice of the void are better choices for a 5cStax Build.

It's alot better in BR stax, being nice in the Null rod slots (which i never liked in the deck anyway) helping to give a clock that can be revelant to win some games fast, i really loved the card in the deck.

But the card is really the best in MUD aggro, where 13 spheres/8 juggys make a really solid build, really consistant.

In fact, i tend to think that the card is really metagame dependant. Mainly depending on how fish is played in the tournament.

[nineisnoone]

From my initial testings, the card is really the worst in 5c Stax, where you can't allow your opponent develop his board with mana accelerants in the first turns. Lodestone golem can't prevent this, so its not good for the deck. I lost a really high number of games because of that aspect, and i still think that both Thorn of amethyst and chalice of the void are better choices for a 5cStax Build.

I wouldn't think in a build you put it in you would view it as replacing cards like Thorn or Chalice.  I wouldn't be looking to play this until I put a piece or two of disruption down already, so you shouldn't be looking to cut any of the first turn plays with Lodestone.  It's not whether it's better than Thorns of Chlice, but Welder or Smokestacks or whatever finisher they run.