Problems with "The deck"

[MirariKnight]

The Deck isn't going to be a 4-Thirst Tezz-like dominating machine. It's a metagamed control deck CONCEPT that skilled players/deckbuilders will modify and take to some good finishes here and there. It isn't a 52 card list with 8 open slots like Tezz.

If you don't feel that the deck is a winning proposition for you, can I ask why you play it? You seem to think that Fish and Stax have much better possibilities for strong opening hands etc. If you think those decks are so good, why aren't you playing one of them? I'm not asking this to be patronizing, but rather to extend the approach that Smmenen has taken to building "The Deck" beyond the cards cards that make a list and back into the choice of which deck to play.

[honestabe]

@FlyFlySideOfFry - Mellow out, All i'm saying is give it a try and see. Is your head so far up your rear, you can't see another perspective on something, a discussion is an exchange of ideas, no discussion if you keep telling me sotsw is worse than darksteel.

Probably because in this deck, Darksteel is better than Sphinx.  The whole idea of the deck is to slowly take control of the game.  Let your opponent get a few threats in the early game while you're stablizing.  THEN you want to eliminate the threats already played, while simultaniously stopping them from playing any more.  THEN once you've got the game in your control, find a way to win.  Darksteel allows you to win in 2 turns, 1 if you have a time walk.  Sphinx takes 2x this long.  Which means your opponent is 2x more likely to find an answer.  The very first idea of "The Deck" is to allow your 1st 19 life points to be taken, while denying your opponent the last.  This make's Sphinx's Lifelink irrelevant, as who cares if you have more life, if your deck is already designed to not get to 0 life.  If you're at 1 life, it's still fine.  That's the POINT of "The Deck".  If you can't deny your opponent the last bit of life, you're not playing "The Deck" right.  

I'd say run Darksteel or Sundering Titan, but if Noble fish is that popular, Inkwell's shroud doesn't sound too bad

Basically, Sphinx is not ideal, because this isn't a deck that wants to tinker early and win.  You want to save it until you are in COMPLETE control

[Cyberpunker]

I'd still run Darksteel if Noble Fish was popular. Never underestimate the trample effect.

[Tiki Walker]

Greetings.

This particular "deck" is not about a certain list, actually it is not even about a "deck".

It is actually about an idea, a concept, a perspective, on how to approach a game of Magic, then design one's deck accordingly with the goal in mind; just like what has been said by the original creator of the said deck. Brian wanted to have something that he could never cease to improve, and something that would win in direct proportion to how well it was played.

With that in mind, personally to me since from the beginning this "deck" actually offers a lot of room for tweaks and modifications, that one can always try to improve with spells substitutions or even disassemble it completely then rebuild from scratch if necessary to suit one's T1 environment. Personally, that gives me the most fun, since it is like playing never ending Lego blocks that one can always build into anything.

How to select spells and lands to suit the concept is often not a straight path, although this small reminder might help; that spell selections should be made with flexibility, efficiency, and versatility in mind while serving the concept. Also, preferably spells and lands that made it into the build should be able to fully stand on their own and do not rely on other components to function properly.

To help one focus on how to select spells to build one's version of this "deck", I actually find that understanding and following the steps described in the article titled "How to build your Grow-A-Tog" that was posted in the Starcitygames.com some time ago is very helpful to start early drafts and narrow down the likely builds that one might need. I imagined that these deck building guide concept is again repeated and tweaked on "The Return of The Deck" by the same author, although it might take me a while before I could read it. But I guess, it should be more or less similar to the deck building concept the author described in the "Build your Grow A Tog". Remember, it is never about certain lists. It is about a concept.

I hope sincerely that those articles can help the Original Poster's quest to narrow down and finally build his/her own version, that suits his/her T1 Magic environment.



PS. to doomsday's question; Reasons why I prefer Loam to Crux:
Its ability to always stay on the game unless it is removed from the game.
It is another target for Mystical Tutor easing pressure on Tinker.
It can be one components of the Gift pile that is fully functional whether it is on hand or in the graveyard easing pressures on Regrowth if we are in a situation that needs land recursions while needing something else at the same time.
It has the potential to put 2 extra cards in hand if for example I needed Library of Alexandria triggered faster.
Loam avoids popular artifacts deterrents such as Grudge and Pridemage.
It helps with Compulsive Research draws.
Loam helps me give another back door should the opponent think it is smart to try to play around my spell pierces by means of the waiting game.  

[zeus-online]

Here's how i view the tinker dudes:

Heavy aggro/aggro-control meta: Sphinx, it isn't even close...This guy is almost impossible to race for such decks.

Heavy control meta: Sundering titan, nuking just 2 lands usually has a huuge impact.

The middle guys seems to be: Darksteel collossus, he's big, fast and quasali can't touch this! Inkwell leviathan also belongs here, i'm just not a fan of him...Even with shroud he's almost as easily dealt with as the others and he dosn't provide the life swing that sphinx and DSC do...And he does not have the impact that titan has when it lands.

[Lemnear]

@ scifiantihero - Well, said, I could have said something to that extint, to give others a broader understanding of what I'm trying to convey. But some people's hubris
gets in their way "how can you fill your cup with water, when your cup is already full??

@FlyFlySideOfFry - Mellow out, All i'm saying is give it a try and see. Is your head so far up your rear, you can't see another perspective on something, a discussion is an exchange of ideas, no discussion if you keep telling me sotsw is worse than darksteel.


To the others though. I have tried several builds, even Smennen's build.I Net decked different builds, and played a few people with thier own versions of "The Deck" comparing and diseccting it. swapping things in and out, playtesting so forth and so on all in all trying to squeeze the optimal potential out of "The deck". Trying to raise it from a Top 8 spot (which it can get) to Tezzy- Like godness and domination....and it just wasn't there. TO ME, it lacks early game consistincy, and can't win
counter wars.

on a side note. I beat "The deck" with a sadistic sacrament BEFORE I even knew this new version existed. I played against it not knowing what to expect and
it still lost, I didn't change my gameplan or anything.

The cointer war is the point I decided to try pierce instead of the drains. Mindbreak trap  would not make it much better, but in a counter war mike mentioned the final trap may could be a pierce too unless you'll tell me that that having 8 mana for counter wars on the table is common in a world of shop, dredge and fish. I'm adressing weak matchups and problems with the decks early threads.

The deck is an idea .. a shell of a deck what gives us space for some meta-deckbuilding but attacking me or anyone else with an argument like "you'll loose the mirror" and "don't listen to him!" is respectless especially 'cause I wasn't talking about YOUR meta. Mike, if you're always playing mirrors and vs. Tezz, which are decent fast matchups your descision to run drains may be right but making it a dogma is brainless. If you take a close look at my sig you'll see I'm form proxy-less europe with much more ANT, fish, Sad Sac etc. around than Tezz and drain mirrors.

[MirariKnight]

If you check out the other thread on The Deck, Steve's article is now free, so everyone can read the thought process behind how to construct this type of deck. I think if everyone read it, it would help most people here come to a better understanding of how this deck works.

[Soapbot]

@ mirariknight

@omni-strife

 - I just picked the deck up cuz i thought it was cool and innovative, thats all. and it is fun, but winning is also fun. And like the title of this thread
"The deck" has too many problems for me. If I'm not getting countered, I'm getting beat up. The deck is really complex to run efficiently, but even at its most efficient, it will still lose to decks that are more focused on thier gameplan, instead of being reactive and "holding on to one life"-which seems to be how the deck works. The mental investment of running "the deck" is far less rewarding than it's results. Doomsday was a very complex deck, and was very powerful, and above anything was just hella cool. "The Deck" takes a lot and gives too little.

but if thats your thing hey by all means....

the whole point of my argument was to see, if anyone faced the same problems with their deck, and moved on to other cards that had worked for them. I net decked Smennen list first. Played a lot of games. I saw what was working and what wasn't so i made some changes. I played against a couple more people with
the deck. Some ran loam, some ran mana leak, some ran pierce, one ran mishra's factories, one even ran nether void to completely lock the opponent out. so after talking, I wanted to see
where they were having problems, so we could address it and make a better card pool, a card pool that covered up some of the weakpoints "The deck" was having .THAT WAS ALL.

fire/ice doesn't work for me, its either countered or discarded, I prefer darkblast its reusable- any other suggestions

neither does mana drain- by the time i get 2 UU. the opponent has force and drain -any suggestions

swords works against sphinx and goyf- any suggestion?

what do you do after you lose a counter war and your oppnent tinkers for inkwell??? hurky'ls recall isn't in any list that i've seen- any suggestions
(I've blocked with a gorilla shaman to cast balance and it was countered, since i used my mana drain to counter tinker)

[PsychoCid]

You tested and proposed changes to a deck that is based on specific game play concepts.  What we're trying to explain is that the changes you've made do not adhere to these concepts.

In my opinion, you've made it clear that you have no intention of playing The Deck.  What you seem to want to play is tutor-based fortress style control a la Ped Bun Oath of the Extended of old.  While they both seek to control the game in the long run, they don't pilot alike -- in the same vein that a Ferrari and a Hyundai don't feel too similar.

It's not about setting up certain conditions so much as it is about aiming for certain advantages; using life as a resource (exchanging it for time and tempo, primarily) and seeking to gain maximum card advantage, virtual or otherwise.  Fire/Ice is capable of creating many advantages that Pyroclasm cannot and further synergizes with both the other cards in the deck and the mentality of the play.

You're right about one thing -- Weissmans baby isn't for everyone.

[Tha Gunslinga]

If you're not a virtually error-free player, I would not pick up Keeper (aka The Deck), as you'll only lose and find yourself disappointed.  You need an incredibly high level of play to be rewarded when playing it, and it doesn't sound like you're there yet.

[PsychoCid]

This is 'Keeper'

[Soapbot]

If you're not a virtually error-free player, I would not pick up Keeper (aka The Deck), as you'll only lose and find yourself disappointed.  You need an incredibly high level of play to be rewarded when playing it, and it doesn't sound like you're there yet.

You tested and proposed changes to a deck that is based on specific game play concepts.  What we're trying to explain is that the changes you've made do not adhere to these concepts.

In my opinion, you've made it clear that you have no intention of playing The Deck.  What you seem to want to play is tutor-based fortress style control a la Ped Bun Oath of the Extended of old.  While they both seek to control the game in the long run, they don't pilot alike -- in the same vein that a Ferrari and a Hyundai don't feel too similar.

It's not about setting up certain conditions so much as it is about aiming for certain advantages; using life as a resource (exchanging it for time and tempo, primarily) and seeking to gain maximum card advantage, virtual or otherwise.  Fire/Ice is capable of creating many advantages that Pyroclasm cannot and further synergizes with both the other cards in the deck and the mentality of the play.

You're right about one thing -- Weissmans baby isn't for everyone.

all you did was talk condescendinly toward me....

at its root everything you said was baseless, nor did you answer any of the scenarios that were asked upon.

and I'll still beat you with a simpler deck

[The Atog Lord]

Guys, please stop the ad hominem and trashtalking.

Soapbox, you can't refute someone's point by saying that it is baseless, nor by stating that you are better at Magic than the other person involved.

This thread is for discussing The Deck / Keeper / X Color Control / Whatever. It's not for discussing who is a better Magic player.

[bluemage55]

the whole point of my argument was to see, if anyone faced the same problems with their deck, and moved on to other cards that had worked for them. I net decked Smennen list first. Played a lot of games. I saw what was working and what wasn't so i made some changes. I played against a couple more people with
the deck. Some ran loam, some ran mana leak, some ran pierce, one ran mishra's factories, one even ran nether void to completely lock the opponent out. so after talking, I wanted to see
where they were having problems, so we could address it and make a better card pool, a card pool that covered up some of the weakpoints "The deck" was having .THAT WAS ALL.

The problem with your argument is that your perception of how The Deck works is probably being skewed badly by the way you are piloting.  While some people have taken their criticisms too far, the general idea they're (correctly) alluding to is that The Deck requires a very specialized mindset and a high level of play skill to pilot properly.  It isn't something that you can just "pick up" as you did and expect to understand immediately.

I strongly recommend that you begin by reading the entirety of the Control Player's Bible.  While the lists are outdated, the mindset and playstyle of the deck has remained similar.  Getting a feel for how to pilot the deck properly is critical to understanding why certain components are used.

[Ulthrion]

The deck is really complex to run efficiently, but even at its most efficient, it will still lose to decks that are more focused on thier gameplan, instead of being reactive and "holding on to one life"-which seems to be how the deck works.

That is indeed how the deck works, kind of. But that doesn't mean that it automatically loses to more focussed strategies, because the deck is actually really focussed as well, except that it's not focussed on executing a linear line of play, like ritual->tutor->will, Time vault->voltaic key, or "life pressure dude"->"mana denial". It is focessed in that it generates a lot of small advantage, so it's linear would be like: small advantage -> small advantage -> small advantage -> small advantage -> ... -> control of the game -> win. The specific cards used for this don't really matter all that much.

One of the complaints you had was that the opening hands were inconsistent, however, many of the cards that are there as 1-ofs are cards that create small advantages, except that they do it in a different way. Some of those cards can be blowouts in certain matchups, which is why they are there. Ancient grudge might be not the most ideal card against fish, but if you take out 2 moxen with it, and you couple that with some wastelands, you will have a great mana advantage, and the ancient grudge actually attributed to this. Finally, you have tutors to search out the cards that give you the biggest advantage whenever you want.

Another problem you had was the early game, and I think that this is a logical consequence of being the control player. The Deck generally wins after many turns, much more than most other decks. To do this, it has to be the stronger deck in the late game, which it is usually. However, you cannot simply be the strongest deck against at any stage of the game, and the early game is where the deck can lack a little. However, this is where you use your 19-life buffer to get through to the late game. The Deck doesn't really have blowout hands that just win, but it does have strong openings that put you a long way on the path to complete control.

The mental investment of running "the deck" is far less rewarding than it's results. Doomsday was a very complex deck, and was very powerful, and above anything was just hella cool. "The Deck" takes a lot and gives too little.

If you feel that way, then that's ok. I personally feel that this deck gives me great opportunity to flex my mental muscle, and even if it gets overshadowed in the end, I am glad to have played it now, because to me, it is a very rewarding deck. Difference in playing style, I assume.

the whole point of my argument was to see, if anyone faced the same problems with their deck, and moved on to other cards that had worked for them. I net decked Smennen list first. Played a lot of games. I saw what was working and what wasn't so i made some changes. I played against a couple more people with
the deck. Some ran loam, some ran mana leak, some ran pierce, one ran mishra's factories, one even ran nether void to completely lock the opponent out. so after talking, I wanted to see
where they were having problems, so we could address it and make a better card pool, a card pool that covered up some of the weakpoints "The deck" was having .THAT WAS ALL.

The whole point the other posters had was that they pointed out what they percieved as the flaws in the decklist you presented. It is very true that there are a lot of different decklists for The Deck, and they have widely different card choices, but that is the whole point: Metagaming and personal preference. Different builds have different weaknesses. The flaw in your logic, the way I read the post, was that you had settled on a list that was optimal according to you, and the proceded to address weakness to the entire archetype (or "idea", or: "all The Deck lists possible") based on your experienced with this, rather excotic, list. I think that is where the intention of your post got lost a little.

fire/ice doesn't work for me, its either countered or discarded, I prefer darkblast its reusable- any other suggestions

The question you have to ask is: Do you have enough control to cast it yet? Casting fire shouldn't be a reflex that happens when you see a confidant. Often it's correct to kill it on sight, but sometimes it's better to wait a turn. Maybe you can ice their land end of turn, waste another land and then balance the confidant away without the fear of mana drain or spell pierce. In many cases, you can drop gorilla shaman and keep up with some card advantage by destroying their moxen (it's surprising how often the shaman is not countered). You both get a similar card advantage, but you constrict their mana in the process, which can put you in the position to cast fire at a later point where they are unable to effectively defend against it, or just waste too many forces on your single spell, leveraging the card advantage that the confidant just created.

neither does mana drain- by the time i get 2 UU. the opponent has force and drain -any suggestions

I generally can keep my opponent off mana drain by taking out their mana with wasteland, gorilla shaman and ancient grudge. Especially if they wish to cast a spell on their own turn, because they need UU + the mana for their spell while you assault their mana base. This can give you the opportunity to get your drain cast while your opponent is unable to defend.
And always remember that there are spells that you don't need to counter. You can use ancient grudge, balance, pernicious deed, or any other card to deal with a certain threat. You must just estimate if you can get the better sollution online (tutor for it, find the mana to cast it, etc.) before the spell takes the game away from you. This way you can keep your mana drain for another time.

swords works against sphinx and goyf- any suggestion?

Swords has been part of The Deck for a long time as I read in The Control Player's Bible, and for good reason. It is an efficient answer to relevant threats. However, it doesn't really generate an advantage and this is where it falls flat. Especially compared to other sollutions, like Balance, pernicious deed (against goyf), and sower of temptation. It is efficient, which gives you a better chance in the early game, but it lack the incremental advantages that The Deck is really looking for. You can play it, just know at what cost it comes.

what do you do after you lose a counter war and your oppnent tinkers for inkwell??? hurky'ls recall isn't in any list that i've seen- any suggestions
(I've blocked with a gorilla shaman to cast balance and it was countered, since i used my mana drain to counter tinker)

First of, some lists use cunning wish with rebuild in the sideboard which can be a sollution.
Second, you lose a counter war, and then get a crucial spell countered. This means your opponent was able to get 2 more counterspells off than you. This means that your opponent was already at some tremendous advantage, or you were unable to constrict his mana enough. You might have picked the wrong card to fight a counter war over, because...
Third, why fight over a tinker if you have another card to deal with it more efficiently? If you can't protect your balance with all your countermagic, you can fight a little over tinker so that you get the most out of your untap fase that follows, but in this scenario it could very well be that balance was a more important spell to protect than the force directed at the tinker.

In all, this scenario sounds more like your opponent was the one in control of the game, and you were unable to execute your game plan. An opponent winning from an advantaged position is not the problem. You should really wonder how he got into the position where he had so many (blue) cards in hand, and all the mana in play to cast so many of them. In this scenario, the problem lies in the turns before this play happened.

[MirariKnight]

I'd like to add on to what was said about using a different spell to "counter" one of their plays, eg. Deed or Balance to eliminate creatures instead of countering. I often find it not effective to counter Dark Confidant when playing this deck because there are so many cards in the deck made to answer him once he is on the board that it's better to save your counters for something else. Of course, this is not always the case. If you don't think you can stop Bob before their CA advantage becomes unsurmountable, it's right to try to stop him first.

Another thing to keep in mind with this strategy is that with this deck it's much, much easier to have the initiative and protect your spell than to sit back and counter their stuff. You can't counter everything they do, so what you really want to use your counters for is to protect your x-for-1's against the present situation. Keep in mind that if you're the one casting the spell, rather than defending against it, you need one less counter to win the counter war. This concept coupled with mana denial make it an excellent strategy to use your counters to protect your stuff rather than attack theirs. Often, plays like EOT Ice your land, Grudge your Mox, then untap and drop one of the your answers/bombs with counter backup on your mainphase is a much better strategy than countering their stuff and then running out Balance, Deed, Sower, Tinker blindly.

As a side note, a super tech play with Fire/Ice that I absolutely love is to Ice Library of Alexandria on their upkeep. Many, many times people will go down to 6 cards because they will draw one next turn to keep Library active. If you Ice it upkeep, they can't draw so this gets you a small tempo advantage but more importantly turns Ice into +1 CA instead of neutral. Often this play is enough to keep them off Library for the rest of the game, unless they decide to do nothing that turn. There are so many plays like this with either Fire or Ice that it is never, ever dead.

[Ulthrion]

As a side note, a super tech play with Fire/Ice that I absolutely love is to Ice Library of Alexandria on their upkeep. Many, many times people will go down to 6 cards because they will draw one next turn to keep Library active. If you Ice it upkeep, they can't draw so this gets you a small tempo advantage but more importantly turns Ice into +1 CA instead of neutral. Often this play is enough to keep them off Library for the rest of the game, unless they decide to do nothing that turn. There are so many plays like this with either Fire or Ice that it is never, ever dead.

That is soo cool. I didn't realize this.

[waikiki]

I dont know if this is the right place to post this but I have recently been trying out the deck and included trinket mage.

Engineered explosives works really well as additional mana denial but also works in solving other problems.
Also top is really strong. Together with the trinket beats I have been pretty succesful winning the latest mana crypt weekly vintage.

// Lands
    1  Scalding Tarn
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    3  City of Brass
    2  Underground Sea
    1  Tundra
    1  Tropical Island
    2  Volcanic Island
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Flooded Strand
    1  Misty Rainforest
    2  Island
    1  Academy Ruins

// Creatures
    1  Sundering Titan
    1  Gorilla Shaman (1)
    3  Trinket Mage

// Spells
    1  Tinker
    3  Mana Drain
    1  Ancient Grudge
    2  Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Engineered Explosives
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    3  Spell Pierce
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Merchant Scroll
    4  Force of Will
    1  Gifts Ungiven
    1  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Ancient Grudge
SB: 1  Balance
SB: 1  Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1  Trinisphere
SB: 1  Pithing Needle
SB: 1  Sower of Temptation
SB: 2  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 1  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1  Helm of Obedience

[limitedwhole]

Try this.

Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Timetwister
Mystical Tutor
Tinker
2 Cunning Wish
3 Spell Pierce
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
Balance
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Gorilla Shaman
Red Elemental Blast
Yawgmoth’s Will
Mind Twist
Skeletal Scrying
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Regrowth
Crucible of Worlds
Trinisphere
Platinum Angel
Black Lotus
Mox Sapphire
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Jet
Mox Emerald
Sol Ring
Library of Alexandria
4 City of Brass
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
Tundra
4 Wasteland
Strip Mine

Sideboard:
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Skeletal Scrying
Diabolic Edict
Lava Dart
Gorilla Shaman
Ancient Grudge
Disenchant
Honor the Fallen
Morphling
Swords to Plowshares
Island
Ray of Revelation
Brainstorm
Claws of Gix

Edited: updated my sideboard.

[limitedwhole]

"The Deck doesn't ever want to 1 for 1"

This is false. The deck loves to 1 for 1.

Edit: Also if you see allot of Oath, You can edit the above sideboard to include two Ray of Revelation.

[Fortune]

Has anyone tried Jace TMS out in "the Deck?" seems good, but I don't know what I'd take out.

[OmniStrife_101]

Here is what I am testing now:

4   Wasteland
2   Volcanic Island
2   Underground Sea
2   Tropical Island
1   Strip Mine
1   Scalding Tarn
1   Polluted Delta
1   Misty Rainforest
1   Island
1   Flooded Strand
3   City of Brass
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Pearl
1   Sol Ring
1   Mana Crypt
   
4   Force of Will
3   Mana Drain
3   Spell Pierce
   
1   Voltaic Key
1   Time Vault
1   Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1   Tinker
1   Jace the Mindsculptor
   
2   Ancient Grudge
1   Sower of Temptation
1   Trygon Predator
1   Gorilla Shaman
1   Crucible of Worlds
1   Pernicious Deed
1   Lightning Bolt
1   Darkblast
   
1   Gifts Ungiven
1   Mystical Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Yawgmoth’s Will
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Fact or Fiction
1   Brainstorm
1   Merchant Scroll

SIDEBOARD
4   Leyline of The Void
2   Yixlid Jailer
3   Nature's Claim
1   Pyroblast
1   Red Elemental Blast
3   Pyroclasm
1   Trygon Predator
Time Vault - Voltaic Key - Too good a combo to pass out.  Still I am considering cutting them to open slots.

Jace TMS - has all been good in testing.  Works agianst all Tinker robots except Inkwell Leviathan.  Can also work as a quasi - time walk if your opponent decides to swing at him instead of you. 

With the sideboard, I am pretty much dead versus combo but only a few people run it in our meta. 

I pretty much have a good match up against Oath and Stax which makes up most of the Meta here. 
Kind of okay post board when it comes to Ichorid. 
50/50 versus any Aggro decks like Noble Fish, Mono blue Fish, U/W Aggro Control.

Any suggestions and criticisms are welcome..

[limitedwhole]

Why not run White?  You get Balance, Swords, Disenchant, Ray of Revelation, and Honor the Fallen.  Why are you running pernicious deed?  Swords to Plowshares is nuts right now.  Why split between a lightning bolt and a darkblast?  The swords are excellent against everything including dredge.  Why don't you run trinisphere?  It is a house everything but workshop, which does your job for you by playing spheres.  Why Sphinx over platinum angel?  Why only 2 REB effects?  i am upset i can't fit three in the sideboard.  Why play Time Vault combo?  These cards are dead unless you have both of them.  Why no timetwister? Its good against everything except storm combo.

Its nice to see someone elses list.  Let me know what you think about my list.

Brian

[limitedwhole]

Hey Omni or someone else.

i like the card Gifts Ungiven, but there are some things I don't like about it.  Maybe someone who has more experience with the card can help me out.  

Skeletal Scrying:
Skeletal Scrying is Black meaning it can't be REB.  
Skeletal Scrying is variable.  Scrying for 2 is a common play.  But it can also be used to draws tons of cards like any other draw X.
SKeletal Scrying gets me land.

Gifts Ungiven:
Gifts Ungiven can get a land destruction package or a mana package this is pretty powerful. It can put Strip Mine in the graveyard when Crucible is on the table.  Another nice feature.

It can get a Walk Twister Package:  Ancestral, Time Walk, Regrowth, Mystical.  If my opponent gives me Walk and Mystical.  (however, this is not strick card advantage if the Gifts resolves)  I can Walk Twister my opponent.  If he gives me regrowth, mystical, I get an Ancestral and either a card to get tinker, YAwgmoth's or pitch to force depending.

If I put Gorilla Shaman in a pile, my opponent often has to give me two of the other three, I like this feature.

How do you get answers with this card?

How often do you run into the problem of having a weak gifts because you have already used Ancestral?
Do you have to be playing a combo like Vault, Key for it to work?

Can't your opponent often just counter the gifts once forcing you to force (with REB for instance), then counter the one good card you get?
Brian

[DuKeLiO]

I don't like your list beacuse you do not run almost draw and card selection: no Brainstorm, Ponder, Fact or Fiction or Gifts Ungiven.
Also you don´t play Ancient Grudge, that is amazing against MWS.dec and Vault-Key decks. It is useful against every deck in Vintage to destroy moxen and reinforce your mana denial plan.

I don´t like Skeletal Scrying too. I use to finish my games in too little life points. I didn't know how I could run this. Also Gifts Ungiven is very powerful in a deck like this, full of answers and 1-off, also playing Regrowth and Yawgmoth's Will.
Timetwister is in the borderline. I really like to play with it, but I think it is really not a optimal card.

Also I haven't tried Platinum Angel, but I am thinking about it. I really like play Sundering Titan, beacuse with some artifact destruction use to clean completly the board. Maybe I will try it over Crucible of Worlds. For me the skeleton of 2010 Keeper is:

4 Force of Will
5-7 Spell Pierce/Mana Drain/Mindbreak Trap
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Balance
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Regrowth
2 Tinker Target (Sphinx/Platinum Angel + Sundering/Crucible)

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
5 Mox
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 City of Brass
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Fetchland
+1 Dual land depending on maindeck choices

This up to nine free slots.

Another choices:
Ponder
Merchant Scroll
Thirst for Knowledge
Rebuild/Hurkyl
Jace the Mindsculptor
Sower of Temptation
Swords to Plowshares
Mind Twist
+2/3 Ancient Grudge
1/2 Gorilla Shaman
1/2 Nature's Claim
Life from the Loam
Pernicious Deed
1/3 Trygon Predator

For those 9 free slots I use to play at least one card specially against each one of the more important archetypes except Ichorid, beacuse it has no sense of playing only anoe card against it: Fish, drain-decks, MWS.deck and Oath.
The other simple tweakings are up the counterspell number in control/combo metagames and the removal in each other cases.

[limitedwhole]

"I don't like your list beacuse you do not run almost draw and card selection: no Brainstorm, Ponder, Fact or Fiction or Gifts Ungiven.
Also you don´t play Ancient Grudge, that is amazing against MWS.dec and Vault-Key decks. It is useful against every deck in Vintage to destroy moxen and reinforce your mana denial plan."

I do run card drawing and card selection.  I run skeletal Scrying over Fact or Fiction and over Gifts Ungiven.  Cunning wish functions as card drawing and selction as well given the scyring and brainstorm in the sideboard.  It can also get answers like lava dart and swords for bob which I feel is extremely important.  My problem with Fact or Fiction and Gifts is that they don't get answers well .  It is very important to be able to remove a bob fairly reliably.  I play two Gorilla shaman which is better than ancient grudge in my opinion and 2 cunning wish which can fetch ancient grudge.  The fact that skeletal scrying is variable is extremely useful in getting around spellpierce.

"I don´t like Skeletal Scrying too. I use to finish my games in too little life points. I didn't know how I could run this. Also Gifts Ungiven is very powerful in a deck like this, full of answers and 1-off, also playing Regrowth and Yawgmoth's Will."

So far scrying hasn't proven to be a problem.  I take far less damage than bob players.  The only time scrying take s you rreally low on life is when you play a huge one.  Typically Platinum Angel is sure to come out soon after.

"Timetwister is in the borderline. I really like to play with it, but I think it is really not a optimal card."
This is a key play against dredge.  It is really quite good against TEZ as well.  Maybe you don't feel timetwister is optimal because you don't have enough gorilla shamans and/or can't scrye useless cards out of your graveyard..

"Also I haven't tried Platinum Angel, but I am thinking about it. I really like play Sundering Titan, beacuse with some artifact destruction use to clean completly the board. Maybe I will try it over Crucible of Worlds. "
I like titan too, but he has the nasty habit of destroyoing your mana base when he is answered.  He is a more aggressive play typically.  What I like about plat is that it is impossible to race her.  She can slso block trygdon predator.If your opponent can't answer her, kaput.  That being said she is very weak against ancient grudge.  Crucible isn't just for destroying you ropponents man, it is also for ramping your mana base up and thinning your deck of duels.  It is a key recovery card andthe key card you are trying to get in play versus stax.  I would never cut crucible from a weissman.

I am amazed at how good trinisphere is as a tinker target.  You really don't have to keep your opponent under 3 mana with this card.  keeping your opponent under 6 is enough.

[DuKeLiO]

Gorilla Shaman is only better in the control Mirror. Against Null Rod, good luck destroying it without using your moxen, and against MWS.dec is the same. You can't answer Lodestone Golem or Crucible of Worlds.

So far scrying hasn't proven to be a problem.  I take far less damage than bob players.  The only time scrying take s you rreally low on life is when you play a huge one.  Typically Platinum Angel is sure to come out soon after.

Bob players don't play City of Brass. Each game that you have two citys, your life count down pretty quickly.
Cunning->Brainstorm is very very slow. It's awful to pay 4 mana for a brainstorm. And the same is said against Skeletal.
Cunning Wish is a slow card in Vintage.

I think you only play against combo and/or control beacuse your list is too slow against proactive decks like Fish, Oath and Aggro Workshop.

[Troy_Costisick]

Gorilla Shaman is only better in the control Mirror. Against Null Rod, good luck destroying it without using your moxen, and against MWS.dec is the same. You can't answer Lodestone Golem or Crucible of Worlds.

So far scrying hasn't proven to be a problem.  I take far less damage than bob players.  The only time scrying take s you rreally low on life is when you play a huge one.  Typically Platinum Angel is sure to come out soon after.

Bob players don't play City of Brass. Each game that you have two citys, your life count down pretty quickly.
Cunning->Brainstorm is very very slow. It's awful to pay 4 mana for a brainstorm. And the same is said against Skeletal.
Cunning Wish is a slow card in Vintage.

I think you only play against combo and/or control beacuse your list is too slow against proactive decks like Fish, Oath and Aggro Workshop.

I hear Balance and Swords are good against those decks.  And Gorrila Shaman is pretty darn good, btw.  Don't forget it can eat Voltaic Key and Time Vault.

[M.Solymossy]

The lists I've seen lately in this thread are so far and beyond AWAY from what The Deck is designed to do.  I vomit in my mouth seeing these.    I will elaborate more if I remember, after my lunch, but basically:

DONT PLAY TIMETWISTER, EVER.

Don't play Key-vault.

Don't cut Leyline-Helm from the main.

Don't run a robot other than Inkwell right now.

Don't run two robots.  You're not slaver.

[limitedwhole]

You are incorrect about timetwister.  Just plain wrong.