Problems with "The deck"

[Soapbot]

When i first saw the list for the deck i was very elated to see its return in a new form and fashion, but upon playtesting it, I found that it possesses some flaws
that will stop it from inevitably being number 1. (not the idea of "The deck", just the current lists)

here is my list, I've played many many many games testing to deck to see its fundamental weakness


4 force of will
4 mana drain  (I am partial more toward mana leak, although weaker, it can come online Turn 1)
1 merchant scroll
1 tinker
1 misdirection
1 gifts ungiven (Great card, but never really got if off, usually tossed away to force)
1 fact or fiction
1 Ancestral recall
1 Time walk
1 brainstorm
1 mystical tutor
1 ponder
1 vampiric tutor
1 mind twist
1 darkblast
1 demonic tutor
3 ancient grudge
1 pyroclasm  ( fire/ice sucks. period, only hits confidant, welder and noble, maybe mindcensor, pyroclasm hits them all even pridemage and sower at same time)
1 swords to plowshares ( hits goyf, and sphinx)
1 balance  (better than pernicious deed simply because of pridemage, and you keep your moxes)

1 gorilla shaman
1 goblin welder (destroys stax if you can get something useless in thier graveyad, and sundering titan recursion)
1 dark confidant
1 Ingot Chewer ( Can be used early to destroy, or mid-late as a beatstick) -
1 Sphinx of steel wind (eh, all the bots are the same, just didn't like titan killing my lands)

1 sol ring
5 moxen
1 black lotus
1 crucible of worlds
1 sensei divining top

2 underground sea
2 volcanic island
1 tropical island
1 Library of alexandria
1 polluted delta
1 scaldin tarn
1 misty rainforest
4 city of brass
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 Tolarian Academy

Point blank, the deck sucks against any aggro. Noble fish will wasteland you lands, and soft counter your spells, it has no answer for
an early goyf if not force of will. Against combo its ehhh okay at best. Combo players discard AND have thier own counterspells too.
1st turn dark ritual - duress- dark confidant. You are already being outdrawn, and will lose.  I put in Ingot chewer because it gives the deck some versatility
and is a mid late game hitter. Like i said earlier, gifts rarely came out and was chucked for a force,
Sundering titan blows mostly. If you can get it off early sure its great, but what bot isn't great 2nd turn??? not to mention it will blow up all your dual lands if it resolves. Fish will swords or exile any bot except Inkwell so its your call. Fire/Ice is only good against non swarming decks, otherwise omit that piece of junk.
I started using oxidize, overload, or ingot in the side, they work well, oxidize is far better because of no restrictions, but the red mana is easier to get for overload.
Welder is working as well. I geared the deck for more artifact hate, for the coming of the new Demon Lodestone. Mind twist and balance are GODS!!!!
I've won so many games with those, balance is a great answer to swarms as well a pyroclasm. Moat & pernicious deed will get blown up by pridemage or hit by trygon
predator, why run them? With mana leak i feel a bit safer - 1st turn misty forest & mox whatever -go. Mana drains 2 UU requirement means it will not come online until
turn 2 (unless you have sapphire and land, or tolarian and 2 artifacts) so don't answer that

All in all its a fun deck and very cool, but its shortcomings for taking on everything seem to trip it up, It spreads itself very thin, drawiing things that are good against certain match ups and being more than vulnerable to wastlands /discard/ and beefy hitters. Its good but won't go very far

What do you guys think of Nether void in " The deck" It locks them out if you have crucible and wasteland/strip

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Not to be offensive, but I have no idea what exactly you're trying to say. If you're trying to compare this to a current list it would be nice if you posted that list. If you're posting a list from scratch it would be nice to have more of a clear overview of your process and possibly headings. I don't remember anyone has made the claim that "the deck" deserves to be a tier one deck in this metagame, not even Smmenen.

I hardly think you can make a statement like "Fire/Ice sucks period" without some serious evidence, especially considering how many top-8 decklists run it. It hits all the same creatures that pyroclasm does except: it is an instant, pitches to force, can cantrip if they run no creatures, can be fetched by merchant scroll, and it doesn't kill your own creatures. The only downside is that it doesn't hit multiple opposing creatures, which if you run Sowers like many "The Deck" lists do shouldn't be a problem.

Also what evidence do you have to back up these huge claims? Have you won any tournaments of this list? Have you done hundreds of playtest games? Smmenen has one of the most impressive backgrounds in all of Vintage so when he makes suggestions that contradict what you say I think it is worth providing solid evidence. In addition to this it appears that many of the top-8 decklists contradict your statements.

Sorry to be so critical but when you say:

I found that it possesses some flaws that will stop it from inevitably being number 1. (not the idea of "The deck", just the current lists)

It seems as if you have some seriously amazing evidence that will catapult this deck into new heights, and I don't see anything close to that going on in this post.

[Soapbot]

I hardly think you can make a statement like "Fire/Ice sucks period" without some serious evidence, especially considering how many top-8 decklists run it. It hits all the same creatures that pyroclasm does except: it is an instant, pitches to force, can cantrip if they run no creatures, can be fetched by merchant scroll, and it doesn't kill your own creatures. The only downside is that it doesn't hit multiple opposing creatures, which if you run Sowers like many "The Deck" lists do shouldn't be a problem.

Well, all we can base our facts on is experience. Our experiences may differ, out of the many games I played, maybe like 225 games. Pyroclasm worked better.
Fire/Ice doesn't suck in every deck, but this deck has an aggro weakness, mianly goyf, meddling mage, Even sower of temptation can be countered or killed, and
4 mana is pricey (in my experience) to get off against those decks since they run wasteland and null rod


so if the opposing board had  a confidant, pridemage, and meddling mage. Which would you rather have?




Also what evidence do you have to back up these huge claims? Have you won any tournaments of this list? Have you done hundreds of playtest games? Smmenen has one of the most impressive backgrounds in all of Vintage so when he makes suggestions that contradict what you say I think it is worth providing solid evidence. In addition to this it appears that many of the top-8 decklists contradict your statements.

And yes I've played many games against a myriad of decks, to see what it really lacks. swapping cards in and out, and seeing which one works better,
also sometimes its just one- or two cards that make a deck run smoothly. Sure his reputation is great, but each person has his own experiences, don't ever follow anyone blindly, you have to have your own mind as well, wheter it goes against the grain or not, alot of people said balance was bad along time ago and boom its so
good it got restricted. Yeah it always top 8's but. Tezzy dominates/ get it ?

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Well, all we can base our facts on is experience. Our experiences may differ, out of the many games I played, maybe like 225 games. Pyroclasm worked better.
Fire/Ice doesn't suck in every deck, but this deck has an aggro weakness, mianly goyf, meddling mage, Even sower of temptation can be countered or killed, and
4 mana is pricey (in my experience) to get off against those decks since they run wasteland and null rod

It would have been nice to see the results of your "225 games" as proof for your claims and what opted you to make certain changes. If you were facing Fish for 150/225 games I'm sure pyroclasm would have put up better results. This is why you need to post your proof.

so if the opposing board had  a confidant, pridemage, and meddling mage. Which would you rather have?

There are probably an equal amount of scenarios for Fire/Ice as there are against it. This is why you need to post information such as expected metagame and your testing results. What if your opponent is at 2 life off a Necropotence? What if your opponent has a Darksteel Colossus? What if you have Gorilla Shaman in play and they're Dark Confidant Tezz?

And yes I've played many games against a myriad of decks, to see what it really lacks. swapping cards in and out, and seeing which one works better,
also sometimes its just one- or two cards that make a deck run smoothly. Sure his reputation is great, but each person has his own experiences, don't ever follow anyone blindly, you have to have your own mind as well, wheter it goes against the grain or not, alot of people said balance was bad along time ago and boom its so
good it got restricted. Yeah it always top 8's but. Tezzy dominates/ get it ?

I'm not quite sure why you're saying anyone would follow Smmenen blindly. He was just an example I used. Your statements are in direct conflict with multiple top-8 decklists in recent months, not just one person's opinion. In order to create a thread "going against the grain" you need to post up top-8 results or massive testing proof. You have not done either. There are endless questions begging to be asked:

Why only one Dark Confidant?
Why no Mana Crypt?
Why one Goblin Welder?
Why StP?
Why did you never cast Gifts?
What decks are you expecting to face?
Why one Ingot Chewer?
What is your sideboard?
Why three Ancient Grudges?

The list goes on and on. Once again I strongly suggest posting whatever testing or results you have.

[voltron00x]

Wait... you played 225 games with the deck and never "got off" Gifts Ungiven?

[M.Solymossy]

the changes you've made to the deck are a clear indicator that you have no idea what the fundamentals of this deck even are.

4 mana drain  (I am partial more toward mana leak, although weaker, it can come online Turn 1)

You don't need your counter spells up with this deck on turn 1, because you're designed to have reactive threats in your deck.

1 darkblast

If you play Fire / Ice, you won't really need to play Darkblast.  I'll elaborate more later.

3 ancient grudge

LOLWAT?!   Is 3 really the number here?   At least play a Hurkyl's Recall or something.

1 pyroclasm  ( fire/ice sucks. period, only hits confidant, welder and noble, maybe mindcensor, pyroclasm hits them all even pridemage and sower at same time)

This statement is so wrong I don't know if I can correct your course.  Fire/Ice is great utility because it is two cards in one.  I mean, how often do you really need to hit a sower with this deck?  Pridemage isn't too threatening either compaired to say, Dark Confidant.  I really like casting Ice on opposing Tarmogoyfs, too.  Time Walk + Cantrip is good, I hear.

1 swords to plowshares ( hits goyf, and sphinx)

I'm a fan of this card, but I don't think you can support it effectively in the main.    It's just not doable with your mana base.

1 balance  (better than pernicious deed simply because of pridemage, and you keep your moxes)

   

It's not better than pernicious deed because you will lose lands and usually, you will lose cards in hand too.  You don't just Raw Dog deed out there to get blown up by pridemages.  If anything, you suck some damage, drain an irrelevant 2 cost, and then play Deed and blow it when you have priority.

1 goblin welder (destroys stax if you can get something useless in thier graveyad, and sundering titan recursion)

But wait, you're not running Sundering Titan!  See what I did there.  Also, this doesn't really effect their mana or control the board at all.  You'd be better off running Mogg Fanatic. At least that card does something here.

1 dark confidant

 

This one makes me think you're evaluating "The Deck" wrong.   The deck is designed to be a pure control deck.  1 Dark Confidant doesn't play that roll at all.  I would never want Dark Confidants in my Control Deck.

1 Ingot Chewer

 

The Deck doesn't ever want to 1 for 1, and in matchups where this guy might matter, you'll never in one million years realistically have 5 mana.   You need to remember that starting next month we have a Golem to worry about.   This should be a better utility spell.

1 Sphinx of steel wind (eh, all the bots are the same, just didn't like titan killing my lands)

I have a soft spot in my heart for SOTSW ( since I was the guy who brought it into Vintage) but it really doesn't do the roll that the Robot in "The Deck" is supposed to do.  Other Meandeckers have been a fan of Sundering Titan because it plays a roll of effecient clock as well as Board control.  You should be hitting at least 2 if not 3 of their lands with this guy, which is a huge tempo boost.  The other guy I would Consider is Darksteel Colossus.  He doesn't control the board but he's an 11/11, not a 6/6.

1 polluted delta
1 scaldin tarn
1 misty rainforest

3 Fetchlands?  This is not right at all.  You want AT LEAST 4.  I'd play 5 or even 6, since they dodge Wastelands.

1 Tolarian Academy

This card doesn't fit the deck well at all either.  You're never needing a bajillion blue mana to get stuff going.  Every land drop matters in this deck, and Tolarian Academy is never a card I would want to see in my hands.



PLAY Leyline of the Void / Helm of Obedience Combo!   It's too good not to play.  Leyline does a really good job of shutting off Dredge, as well as Tezzeret's usually game ending Yawgmoth's Will.   Countering their Time Vault makes it almost impossible for Tezzeret to win this matchup when they can't just Yawgmoths Will or Regrowth it back into play. 



Hope the constructive criticism helps!

--Mike Solymossy

[honestabe]

Soly makes a lot of good points.

There's a reason every other deck plays Fire/Ice over Pyroclasm.  Not because they never thought of it, but because Fire/Ice gives you SOO many options.  Kill 2 x/1s, kill an x/2, Eot to throw your opponent off UU for mana drain, it even kills a reckless Storm player.  Worst comes to worst, just EOT tap a mox to cycle it.  It's usefull in virtually every matchup, when pyroclasm BLOWS against storm as well as other decks.

Unless your metagame is 70% stifle (which I hope it's not), you NEED to play at least 5 fetchalnds.  I personally run 6 in most of my decks.  Considering you are running 5 colorless lands, and trying to support a 5-color manabase, 5-6 fetches seems in order

It seems there are a lot of creature decks in your meta.  In this case, Sower of Temptation is a LOT better than path to exile.  This deck never wants to just 1 for 1.  It also pitches to FoW or Misdirection.

In a deck that wants to drag the game out, Dark Confidant is not what you want.  He's best when he's being used to accelerate a deck, which isn't what your deck wants to do.  Your not going to win by racing an opponent.

Goblin Welder is mediocre, and only useful in certain matchups.  Also, he really has no other synergies with your deck

You complain that Fire/Ice is really only usefull to kill x/1 creatures, yet you run a maindeck Darkblast.  Turn this and pyroclasm into Fire/Ice

Also you say you never "Got Off" on Gifts.  This isn't a combo deck, and you will never instantly win by casting gifts.  It's role here is to give you an advantage, not win you the game.

Also, one of the best parts of this deck is the Leyline/Helm combo.  Play that

Some duress/thoughtseize doesn't seem too bad either

[MaxxMatt]

The list you proposed has so many flaws, I can't really find reasons behind your decisions aside little to none knowledge of the overall plan of the deck.

You lower the redundancy of some spells when you shoudn't and rise the number of useless ones.
It seems to me you try to resolve with wrong answers, your truly felt asks.

Is your problem Aggro? You can't add junk maindeck cards such as Pyroclasm, StP playing modern vintage
Is your problem Manabase? You can't reduce the number of mana fonts, fetchlands but adding TAcademy, too
Is your problem deck's complexity? You can't doom game without the needed knowledge and farsight: you don't need other spells in order to win, you need another approach to deckbuilding first and the other additional hints over how to manage this list



Why adding so much maindeck artifact hate? Nul Rod and Artifacts?
Why fearing first turn threats without thinking about cutting MDrains for MLeaks and not Spell Pierce ( remember your denial plan? )?
Why did you opt for adding singletons when its clear the same spells are subpar when played as "1of"?



Why don't you focus on your game problems rather than addressing those problems to the deck?

This is my point of view after reading your lines and trying to understand both your game approach and opponents:

* You fear about life loss too much
You cut M.Crypt and Fetchlands because CoB drains you a lot of life during the game. You fail to understand HOW MUCH the REAL strenght of the deck consist on IGNORING up to 19 life points AND THEN win. During this process, the slow process that bring down your life points, you fear about "losing the game"... as your mastering with the deck will grow, you should start feeling better ANY TIME opponents will do little and stupid things such as munching at your life points instead of building up a really winning strategy against you. You add Sphinx for the same reason/fear. You feel you can't reduce too much the number of CoB, so you cut wrong pieces in order to minimize damages. It isn't WRONG... it is only ...useless and can't help you winning the game. ABUSE of your life points BUFFER, instead of protecting it cutting NEEDED cards and adding UNEEDED other ones.

* You are losing the wrong matchups with the only deck that can really compete with them
If you take mine o Smmenen or other TMD members THEDECK's lists, only a SINGLE matchup will be really good for you: Aggro and AggroControl.
You have bombs and a mana base they can't compete with; while you start playing countering only key things and tutoring for reset buttons, they will try only to kill you with the slowest of the clock available in MtG. Critters aren't your very threat. The only threat you have to fear is the inabilty to capitlize such a deck against an opponent who is going to kill you only with "creatures and nothing more". Play the deck such as Chess. You can't win without anticipating 5 or 6 moves among yours and opponent's ones. If can do that, you are safe. You can afford life points without adding A single Welder, A singl DarkConfidant, 3!!!!AGrudge, A single Chewer and so on... focusing on wrong ask, produce wrong answers...

* You are not imaginative with your spells
You can't really understand the value of spells you rejected from initial list, because you aren't completely part of thedeck's strategy, yet.
Anything can cycle itself when uneeded, stop opponents threats while doing something else, help the ever useful denial plan, make the deck less clunky ...has EXTREME value. You can't really compare some of your additions to the cards you volumptarily (?) cut.

* You must understand the time of the game, the momentun with the deck...or simply lose game after games
This is both critical and crucial. Playing the deck, THE control deck, you need to know FIRST that there is ONLY a right time to do things.
Usually, it is THE LATTER, ( especially if "the latter" is the moment will let you maximize the effect of a bomb/resetbutton/drawer/protection/removal ). You have only a few answers to many threats. This statement works in pair with this other statement: you have the few best answer to almost any threats: this is great only when you are going to be able to optimize them and win.
You can't win any game with a list of spells you can't abuse of. You have to wait, analize their threats and counter only the major ones. Let your buffer of life points give you the needed time to find the right momentum and swing the game with the perfect move. It is crucial.



Anyway, I can help you focusing problems, here.
Any TheDeck list proposed isn't Written into the Stones.
You can't pick it up and play wherever you want and win with it.

Because of your addition of

3 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sword to Plowshares
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Darkblast
1 Dark Confidant
1 Goblin Welder
1 Balance

I will suggest you here a more ARMONICAL maindeck configuration

2 Fire / Ice
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Balance

Look at HOW focused it is: it help you against Aggro and Artifact in a better way.
If you will have addressed us to different game problems ( such as TPS or Oath or anything else ), I would have suggested you DIFFERENT tools to abuse of.

Feel free to trust in what we are trying to suggest you here, but this time, it isn't the deck to be unprepared to approach the metagame, it is only a strategical problem you can resolve with hard work for sure.


MaxxMatt

[MirariKnight]

Edit: While I was typing MaxxMatt pretty much covered it, but I'll post anyway

What everyone said (especially Soly) pretty much covered it, but I have a few things to add:

1. Not to be offensive, but I feel like you don't fully understand how this deck operates. I can tell this from some of your card choices, some of the frustrations you're having, and the lack of a sideboard in the post.
This isn't an easy deck to play. You seem to be frustrated by not having every answer ever time. However nice that would be, that's not how this deck functions. It is primarily a metagame deck. It's not a "good cards" deck like you seem to have made it (all the singleton creatures like Bob, the Welder, Ingot Chewer, as well as 3x Ancient Grudge, etc). Perhaps some of the reason for your frustration is because you've just put all the cards that are "good" in Vintage into your list as singletons, but cards like Bob and Welder don't really work like that. You've diluted the deck beyond the threshold it needs to maintain some type of coherence.
If you read Steve's article on The Deck, he provides a really useful method by which you can construct the deck to your particular metagame. Your list seems to anticipate TONS of Shops (hence the Welder, the 3x Grudge, the Chewer, etc.) but then you say you're having trouble with Aggro. If aggro is a problem, Sower of Temptation is absolutely amazing, as most of us have suggested. You also claim that any non-Inkwell robot will just get removed. When you're dropping Tinker with this deck, except when it's an early gambit, you should be in control of the game. This deck has all the tools that enable it to protect its Tinker win easily. I'd recommend trying Deed again, Balance, like you say happens with Titan, will lose you land and also probably cards in hand vs. Aggro. Deed loses some moxen and that's it. If your meta is very aggro-centric, then I'd suggest cutting a bunch of the anti-Shop cards for Sowers, Deeds, etc. The anti-shop cards are better off in the sideboard, which you really need to make.

Nether Void is absolutely terrible. I can't envision any game I've played with The Deck (I've played lots) where I would have wanted everything to be mana leaked.

[Cyberpunker]

I think you should run Darksteel over Sphinx. You never should underestimate the clock. And vs decks like Ichorid and STAX, Darksteel is far better a clock.

Your playtesting results indicate your card choices. And if that is what you really feel works than go for it. But if things are not working out for you vs some matches (try to figure out why you lost rather than blame it on luck; often it is luck but it could have been different had you chose another card to run)

Mindbreak Trap is a must. And it suprises the Storm player. Especially if you can find a way to float it with Top.

Gifts Ungiven can be tricky. What I recommend is to play solo your deck (goldfish) and try your best to practice with Gifts Ungiven. You can be creative with the piles. Than try to ask yourself what your opponent would most likely give you. Basically:

Select 4 game winning cards. Select 2 that would be the most troublesome for you to have.

If you still find that you would rather not run Gifts. Than Regrowth/Thirst for Knowledge/Night's Whisper/Dark Confidant should be an instant replacement.

I am heavily against the inclusion of Mind Twist in ANY control deck because it is very unreliable. You usually tap a great deal of mana (you most likely tap out for it) and you have absolutely no control over what the opponent does on their turn. Duress and Thoughtseize have this drawback but cost only 1 mana.

Replace with something else like Regrowth/Thirst for Knowledge/Night's Whisper/Dark Confidant. Trust me, I have tested Mind Twist a lot too. I do not like it.

And if Mana Drain is too slow for you, try a mixture of 2 Mana Leak and 2 Drain. Because really, Drain is very powerful. And in a deck as slow as Keeper, you should plan for the late game.

Since you like Pyroclasm a lot (a metagame as well as a personal call) than you should think about Firesprout (Lodestone Golem, Trygon Predator, Painter's Servant, Metalworker, 2/3 Tarmogoyf).
Although keep in mind, you are more vulnerable to Tezzeret.

You should also consider the following cards. If not main than sideboard.

Pithing Needle
Krosan Grip
Spell Snare
Spell Pierce
Diabolic Edict
Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience
Ravenous Trap
MINDBREAK TRAP
Duress
Red Elemental Blast


btw you may have to work on your mana base. A mana calculator is fine  http://www.onlinewebpage.com/simplelandcalc/

[Lemnear]

@kooaznboi1088 and others

You are aware that Sphinx creates a life difference of 12 instead of Collossus 11, is easier hardcastable and still a blocker that makes additional life vs. ichorid (if you manage to keep them away from going off) and random aggro. Also it negates the lifeloss of fetchies etc. Sphinx wins matchups DSC could not.

Mindbreak trap is shit. Having a card mainboard that is useless even against any storm player with brain (duress first then go off).

4xFow, 4xSpell Pierce, 4xWasteland, 1xStripmine, 3xGorillaShaman (I love this dude unless you play against staxx -> Sb in 2 Ancient Grudge), 1xCrucible of Worlds, 1x Regrowth + Tutors will be enough to keep every deck mana-/spellshort so I doubt you even NEED drains.

I don't understand why a mix of Leaks and Drains seems faster to you than 4 drains? A split with pierce or snare could be possible but replacing a 2mana counter with another makes no significant difference unless you have a mox too.

Aggro can be adressed via Balance or tinker basically. You can try Sower (which is at least blue unlike firesprout) or Shackles too.

[Cyberpunker]

@kooaznboi1088 and others

You are aware that Sphinx creates a life difference of 12 instead of Collossus 11, is easier hardcastable and still a blocker that makes additional life vs. ichorid (if you manage to keep them away from going off) and random aggro. Also it negates the lifeloss of fetchies etc. Sphinx wins matchups DSC could not.

Mindbreak trap is shit. Having a card mainboard that is useless even against any storm player with brain (duress first then go off).

4xFow, 4xSpell Pierce, 4xWasteland, 1xStripmine, 3xGorillaShaman (I love this dude unless you play against staxx -> Sb in 2 Ancient Grudge), 1xCrucible of Worlds, 1x Regrowth + Tutors will be enough to keep every deck mana-/spellshort so I doubt you even NEED drains.

I don't understand why a mix of Leaks and Drains seems faster to you than 4 drains? A split with pierce or snare could be possible but replacing a 2mana counter with another makes no significant difference unless you have a mox too.

Aggro can be adressed via Balance or tinker basically. You can try Sower (which is at least blue unlike firesprout) or Shackles too.

I wasn't suggesting Leaks and Drains were faster. The original poster said he wanted to switch to leaks. I suggested he try both first before deciding.
I personally like Fire/Ice too instead of Pyroclasm but just going with whatever the OP wrote.
And Mindbreak Trap is pretty good. I don't think you really play it right if you say its horrible.

DSC > Sphinx. I don't want to argue this. You seem to know so much more, so playtest it yourself.

[M.Solymossy]

You are aware that Sphinx creates a life difference of 12 instead of Collossus 11, is easier hardcastable and still a blocker that makes additional life vs. ichorid (if you manage to keep them away from going off) and random aggro. Also it negates the lifeloss of fetchies etc. Sphinx wins matchups DSC could not.

Mindbreak trap is shit. Having a card mainboard that is useless even against any storm player with brain (duress first then go off).

4xFow, 4xSpell Pierce, 4xWasteland, 1xStripmine, 3xGorillaShaman (I love this dude unless you play against staxx -> Sb in 2 Ancient Grudge), 1xCrucible of Worlds, 1x Regrowth + Tutors will be enough to keep every deck mana-/spellshort so I doubt you even NEED drains.

Unlike Tezzeret, you don't take infinite turns.  Tezzeret mirrors are almost always lost by the first person to tinker a robot.  This deck needs a robot that can beat blue decks.  Darksteel and Sundering Titan are the only two that can do that.  Sphinx is great.  Look at the ICBM Open where LHC and I took 2nd and 3rd with it in our deck.  It won me many games that Inkwell or DSC could not.  But the meta has adapted.  There were Zoo decks and Bug Fish back in the summer, which is why I started to play Sphinx.  Now there are Noble Fish with Swords to Plowshares.  I'd rather give them less turns to find them, while also having game against Blue decks with my tinker robot.

Mindbrek trap is amazing.   I have done this play so many times

Them:  Tfk. 
me (responding):  some draw spell (ancestral has happened)
Them:  Force
me (responding):  some other busted spell (Fact)
Them:  Drain
me:  Trap all your spells, resolve both mine.

You also remove their best spells from the game.  Plus, against a storm deck, if you have a trap, you can counter their duress. 


You NEED drains.  Don't listen to this guy.  If you're playing Spell Pierce and I'm playing Mana drain, but we're in the mirror.  I'm just gunna do nothing.  I'm going to counter your Gorilla Shaman and play around spell pierce all day.  Then when you try doing something and I have 5 or 6 mana on board, your spell pierces will make you look like an idiot when I Mana Drain you.   It's even worse if I'm playing Tezzeret, since most tezz lists have between 3 and up to 5 basic lands.

[Ulthrion]

4 mana drain  (I am partial more toward mana leak, although weaker, it can come online Turn 1)

You don't need your counter spells up with this deck on turn 1, because you're designed to have reactive threats in your deck.

This is probably one of the most important aspects of The Deck I think. I recently won a Mox Sapphire with a twist on MirariKnight's The Deck, and many games went somewhat like this:
I play mana, do something cute (gorilla shaman, brainstorm, ponder, etc). I play wasteland->go for as long as possible (so no drain mana up unless I hit the sapphire). At that point I get drain mana up, while they have build a board, but are short on mana (one of the reason why I wanted 28 mana sources was to play this type of game for as long as possible). Then, most opponents got greedy and wanted to expand their board position, and walked into mana drain, unable to effectively defend it, giving me mana on my turn to devestate them with balance, mind twist, pernicious deed, tinker, crucible/strip mine etc. Then the playing fields were levelled, except I have a mana advantage and every spell in my deck creates card advantage from that point on.

Often, I didn't had mana drain up until turn 4. If you let them build up mana, you let them cast progressively better spells, that put them into a progressively better position. Most decks run more counters than The Deck, better draw, and/or better hand disruption. You, on the other hand, have the strongest mana base and the tools to pressure theirs. If you don't apply the pressure there, you allow them to fight in areas that they are better equipped. However, once you have disrupted their flow of spells with mana denial, you can begin yours and build on the incremental advantages that the cards in your deck give you.

My playing style isn't set in stone. I don't play it every time, and others shouldn't blindly follow it, but I just wanted to say that my version of The Deck is designed to synergize with that playing style. I play 28 mana sources, and use sundering titan as my tinker target. I also play regrowth, and have used it on cards like wasteland, crucible and sundering titan to advance this strategy. I used gifts and demonic tutor to get crucible/strip and/or gorilla shaman going instead of going for the traditional yawgmoth's will.

[M.Solymossy]

This is some really good discussion.  I'm quite pleased, since TMD has been barely readable lately!

As for mind twist, you play that card.  Hands down.  It wins games.

[Doomsday]

Mike or others who regularly play/test this: do you play Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds instead, and why?  The original lists had LftL, is it's uncounterability worth skipping your draws?

EDIT: "uncounterability" may be the wrong word (and it may not even be a word) but I think you get what I'm saying.  It can obviously be countered, but it just delays the plan rather than stops it.

[jester3397]

I've ran both and for me it boils down to playstyle.

I give CoW the slight edge over LftL. But it can obviously be argued both ways.

CoW is great because its a tinker target and after the initial mana investment its good to go. Especially if you resolve it early you'll most likely setup be ahead with your mana than your opponent. Which is much faster than LftL can.

The thing I like about LftL is when you don't have a fetch, wasteland or strip mine to abuse. Sometimes I dredge a couple of times just to get me a wasteland or strip mine if I don't have vamp or demonic to tutor one up. You don't get to do this with CoW. It can also setup a devastating will turn.

[M.Solymossy]

Mike or others who regularly play/test this: do you play Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds instead, and why?  The original lists had LftL, is it's uncounterability worth skipping your draws?

Crucible gets the nudge for me, mainly because you only have to cast it once.  This is going to be more important with Golem in the metagame, as well.  I also hate missing my Draw Steps, just to cast Loam.  Without Bazaar, there is no real advantage to getting back 2 or 3 lands.  I also like casting crucible after draining something.

[Soapbot]

Some people said I used singles of but there is a good reason for that

1 welder------is good against stax, to stop jar, uba, and so on, gorilla shaman will stop the moxes, and ring, but you you won't have the mana to stop something with a bigger casting cost- simple. Welder is mediocre against tezzy, but will give you control over the vault & key. Gorilla can only smash them, they WILL REGROWTH OR YAWGMOTH. You are adding versatility, not to mention the psychological advantage welder adds just by being on the board.

[Because of your addition of

3 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sword to Plowshares
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Darkblast
1 Dark Confidant
1 Goblin Welder
1 Balance

I will suggest you here a more ARMONICAL maindeck configuration

2 Fire / Ice
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Balance

Look at HOW focused it is: it help you against Aggro and Artifact in a better way.
If you will have addressed us to different game problems ( such as TPS or Oath or anything else ), I would have suggested you DIFFERENT tools to abuse of.

Feel free to trust in what we are trying to suggest you here, but this time, it isn't the deck to be unprepared to approach the metagame, it is only a strategical problem you can resolve with hard work for sure.



Two fire and Ice? why not a recuring darkblast????

dark blast for pesky 1's, and pyroclasm for swarm, don't see a down side really, you can side it out.



Maybe 2 ancient grudges is fine, but I'm gearing up for the upcoming meta, which will have lodestone. I've playtested against it, it is seriously no joke.



ifyou have ever played against noble fish (which is number 1 on the morphling by the way, and "The Deck" is number 8) you can see my concern, the deck is not fast
enough, period. Many decks are going aggro, creatures are gaining you advantage. So tell me how do you stop a Second turn Goyf thats force of will protected and a wasteland the next turn, followed by a pridemage? Sure you can soak up damage, but many on this form seem like they haven't played against anything except tezzy


LOL mindbreak does suck against combo....they will duress it, unless you are running 4 of them. Experience speaks louder than people's speculation.


If anyone wants goldfish these scenarios with "The Deck"...

1- you have 7, opponent dark ritual-duress-dark confidant-----the remaining cards in  thier deck are force, duress, tutor's  (mystic, merchant, demonic, vampiric,)
   do the rest of the draws randomly and see your results

2- you have 7, opponent tropical island to noble- 2nd turn goyf- 3rd- wasteland- the remaing cards are creatures (trygon, pridemage, meddlingmage)

3- you have 7, opponent workshop-to sphere, trini, or thorn,- 2nd turn to lodestone- 3rd to wasteland


all the decks above can run 4, i said 4 of every card (except trinisphere). So its not luck, its probability the chance of someone busting workshop lodestone are
high since they can run four of each.

so just give me some feedback on what you get while playing with the deck against that, this is not theory on paper, I PLAY these cards

[Yare]

The absence of quote bubbles makes the above really hard to follow and read. I can't tell what was said to you and what you're saying in response.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

The absence of quote bubbles makes the above really hard to follow and read. I can't tell what was said to you and what you're saying in response.

I think he seems to be saying this deck automatically loses if your opponent has turn 3 wasteland or a combo deck with Duress? Apparently his list can beat Workshop->Trinisphere->Lodestone->Wasteland on the draw without a FoW but top-8 decklists lose to turn one noble->turn two goyf against a deck that apparently runs no non-creature spells.

Oh and apparently top-8 lists aren't enough proof for him, we need to "so just give me some feedback on what you get while playing with the deck against that, this is not theory on paper, I PLAY these cards" whatever that means even though he provides literally no proof of what he is saying.

Also some decks run 4-ofs of good cards. I think he may be trolling.

[MirariKnight]

So when the Tier 1-2 decks in the format get awesome draws, you have a hard time winning. Big news.
Unfortunately, you took out all the cards that deal with the 3 situations you posted.

Situation 1:
Fire/Ice Bob, Mana Denial, Counter their counters, maybe get off a Mind Twist or some bomb. Ritual Combo isn't a great matchup for any deck with Drains, which is why I suggest Trinisphere in the board. Your random one ofs like Bob, Welder, INGOT CHEWER are not helping this match.

Situation 2:
You took out Pernicious Deed, which answers this situation. Luckily you have Pyroclasm, which doesn't kill half of the creatures mentioned because they have 3+ toughness. Goyf isn't Colossus, he probably is a 2/3 or 3/4 at most. Sowers come online and save you right as you get to the >5 life range.

Situation 3:
Find me a deck that does beat turn 1 Trinisphere consistently.
This deck has Force of Will x4, and if you're on the play maybe Spell Pierce for stuff like that. Alternatively you can lock them under their own stuff with G. Shaman, Wastes, etc.

If the above plays are giving you a hard time, since they are common and strong plays in Vintage, I'd really suggest you reevaluate your list and how you play. Find cards that actually work in the problem situations. Mulligan better so you have Force of Will if you know they're going to do something turn 1. This isn't a deck that you pick up and do well with. If you're playing against Stax, for example, assume they will drop 3sphere, Lodestone, Waste by turn 2. Make sure your hand beats that, or don't keep the hand. A good way to ensure you get better hands is to have a better list, which can be accomplished by taking some of the suggestions we've made. I have had a lot of success against a diverse field with The Deck, as have many of the others who have posted here. We're not making this stuff up, it actually worked in a tournament setting.

[pierce]

I couldn't beat a mentally handicapped stax player, a seven year old Tezz pilot, or a Dredge player who prefers to draw cards with your original list.

Elias's comment on gifts I support. Until you master the power of that card, you will have many problems. I can't think of a game where I resolved Gifts and lost, except two MWS examples where I was high or half asleep.

Soly should prove quite the resource to you here. When he says not to play Sphinx you know he's seriously considered the situation.

[Smmenen]

I couldn't beat a mentally handicapped stax player, a seven year old Tezz pilot, or a Dredge player who prefers to draw cards with your original list.

[Soapbot]

You guys got it all wrong, I'm not saying my list is "the end all, be all" , but given the threats i gave you examples for... "The deck" falls a little flat

To- MIRARIKNIGHT - First turn sphere, or first turn amethyst is one of the Hallmark moves of stax, maybe not trinisphere, because there is only one, but there are 4 of the rest
                           - Noble fish has counters as well, a set of force and daze, and maybe pierce.....oh, and a null rod you have to deal with, and a lone Pernicious Deed,           
                             is supposed to be the Savior in that match up??? Even Sower may get get Swords.
                          - Sure you can fire/ice bob, lets give you the benefit, and say you have 5 ( mystical, vampiric, demonic, merchant), You still have to get it, while
                          the duress's or though seize's are pounding you. Lets say You do get it, It still has to resolve, after 2 turns of confidant, which is a 4 cards maybe
                           more with denial, who knows what counters he could have picked up during that time, sure mana denial, if anything, confidant, makes sure you hit every
                          land drop,  and you are now down in land AND in cards.......

Gifts is good when you get it, but "The deck" will usually only have a force of will and one other blue card, and some utility in hand. I've thrown away gifts and fact or fiction more times than i can count, just to stop a strong play. ESPECIALLY an opening strong play, where its counter or lose.

To Pierce-  Thats purely subjective, based on your playing style who knows who you could beat? Goldfish your deck in the scenarios and see, you will lose most of the time
                and those are common plays buddy.....but ne way


Here is what im trying to show you guys-  noble fish has 4 goyf, 4 wasteland, 4 force, 4 noble, 4 pridemage, 4 meddling mage 4 daze ... so on
the probability of them getting a opening hand that is strong is simply higher then "The Deck"

"The deck " will start off with something like (mystical, strip, mox peal,yawgmot's will, force of will, miisty rainforset, mana drain)

its a good hand, but the pieces don't connect right away...

stax runs- 4 wasteland 4 spehere 4 thorn 4 workshop 4 tangle wire the probability of getting a better openeing  (and lethal start maybe) is better


In games versus dredge, ravenous trap worked better than leyline for me, so i think its better. Leyline always got vapored. ravenous would spin on top
and win me the game. so in my opininon and experience ravenous is better- its purely subjective based on experience.
You guys have huge ego's no one can say anything without it becoming a witch hunt.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

You guys have huge ego's no one can say anything without it becoming a witch hunt.

I'm going to ignore your wall of speculative and situational text and focus on this part. YOU'RE the one who posted a thread that has no focus. YOU'RE the one who has no proof. YOU'RE the one who is not providing solid reasons. All you're doing is providing random examples like "what if your opponent plays bob and draws 2 cards off it while you tutor for Fire/Ice?" These add absolutely ZERO value to this discussion. You're telling people with multiple top-8 finishes and P-9 splits that their decklist is wrong and you expect everyone to listen to your random "experience based subjective" process without posting a metagame, tournament results, or testing results. You're the one with the massive ego and no the users of TMD will not just make way for you to tell us what is right and wrong because you can imagine some random scenarios in your head.

Sorry if this counts as flaming but honestly I tried so hard to tell him what he needed to do to fix his thread and he just threw it back at me/ignored it. I'm going to go with:

I couldn't beat a mentally handicapped stax player, a seven year old Tezz pilot, or a Dredge player who prefers to draw cards with your original list.

[OmniStrife_101]

@ soapboat

If you view the deck that way, then why are you still playing it?

Just a point of comparison, when I am playing The Deck ( the build I am using is close to what most The Deck players play ), I play the deck as if I am playing Landstill but with a twist.  With a twist in a sense that any threat they can bring down, I know I have the answers maindecked.  If they happen to counter my solution to their threats, then I will Tinker one myself.  It all boils down to the decision of do I have to counter this threat?  or protect my own threat later.  All about balls play man, besides, you can't hate out everything because you still have your own game plan to do.  

If you are going to look at it, the standard build of The Deck only has a few slots for which you can customize based on your metagame.  This is of course with respect to the Comulsive Research - Loam build of the The Deck.

[Smmenen]

Whoa whoa, guys.  Let's tone down the mud slinging just a bit.

The Deck is not a particular decklist, but it's an approach, and one that is highly sensitive to one's metagame.   I proposed a particular list in December based upon a particular metagame expectation.   You can read the process I went through and the deck i proposed (which has helped spur renewed conversation around the deck) here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39464.0

The *process* is what is important, not the outcome.

You complain that your deck can't beat Noble Fish, but your decklist is very poorly designed to do that.   Try building the list for a metagame with Noble Fish, and you'll have a very different product.  For example, try a pair of Sowers maindeck.   Add a Darkblast and a Fire/Ice.   Cut Goblin Welder.  Cut Ingot Chewer.

The list I initially proposed in December was a template for others to work with, but few folks used just that list.   People have modified the archetype for their metagame, often radically so.   I suggest you do the same rather than make overly broad assertions that cause people to criticize you.  

[scifiantihero]

The problem, soapbox, is that you took a deck that has put up some results, then proceeded to change it, choosing some cards that have proven themselves to others as less than optimal.  You then argued that the deck as an archetype is less than optimal.

This got you two varieties of responses, which are not unpredictable:  Some people said "well duh, your list isn't very good" and left it at that.  Some others went further to talk about why your list does not seem optimal, and how they perceived this being connected to your understanding (or lack) of this deck.

I think that if your argument was structured something like "Here are my testing results of several 'the deck' lists that have placed well against the decks in my meta." (what/where IS your meta?) "The deck didn't perform as well as I feel it could, so I made some card changes, and here is my reasoning behind all of them.  Here is my new testing data, that posted better results, but still not strong enough for me to be able to take this deck to my local meta,"  then you would only have the second variety of replies. 

Ironically, given the nature of your original post, some of the responses and conversations have been quite good.  I haven't tested the deck enough to say anything that hasn't been said, but it's a very exciting one and I am glad to see some strong opinions about it.

[Soapbot]

@ scifiantihero - Well, said, I could have said something to that extint, to give others a broader understanding of what I'm trying to convey. But some people's hubris
gets in their way "how can you fill your cup with water, when your cup is already full??

@FlyFlySideOfFry - Mellow out, All i'm saying is give it a try and see. Is your head so far up your rear, you can't see another perspective on something, a discussion is an exchange of ideas, no discussion if you keep telling me sotsw is worse than darksteel.


To the others though. I have tried several builds, even Smennen's build.I Net decked different builds, and played a few people with thier own versions of "The Deck" comparing and diseccting it. swapping things in and out, playtesting so forth and so on all in all trying to squeeze the optimal potential out of "The deck". Trying to raise it from a Top 8 spot (which it can get) to Tezzy- Like godness and domination....and it just wasn't there. TO ME, it lacks early game consistincy, and can't win
counter wars.

on a side note. I beat "The deck" with a sadistic sacrament BEFORE I even knew this new version existed. I played against it not knowing what to expect and
it still lost, I didn't change my gameplan or anything.