hermit druid resource and guide

[median]

Introduction

   Hermit druid is probably one of the biggest pet decks out there, and people constantly think "now is it's time". I'm not making that assertion. however I am compiling resource thread for fellow pet deck enthusiast. including some of the top secret tech I have been holding onto.
If it's ever Hermit's time, we'll need a list with much less chaff than we have now and a slow format. While the format is slow now, I don't think that the deck can be built properly with the current pool. At least not to guarantee turn 2 wins, While allowing you to survive a drawn out game.

history

The deck started out as an archetype called angry hermit. the idea developed around the Onslaught era and was very simple. Use hermit druid to put your entire deck in the graveyard including Anger, 20 power worth of creatures and a sutured ghoul, then cast a necromancy on your sutured ghoul. the ghoul would have haste due to the anger in your grave yard, you attack to win the game that turn. many people including Eastman and Meadbert have worked on this deck over the past few years.
Here are a list of threads I have found for the deck on this site

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35841.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29778.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34029.0  (really neat win in this one)
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38790.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=32730.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34032.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37388.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=32779.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=14497.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38209.0

while the deck never caught on, it caught my eye in this 2005 dragon build,
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=3738
Since finding that list I've been trying to make this deck into something viable. currently the deck resembles a flash-oath hybrid.
   your ideal first turn play is a two mana spell, and like flash you have a slew of tutors, -like oath you have to wait a turn. it is also hit by the same hate flash was, such as carrion feeder(hermit) hate, and graveyard hate. Like both it has a great game against shops and fish, although the fish match up is far more favourable for hermit than it currently is for oath.

Heres a basic run down of the deck as I would build it.

Deck core

4 hermit
3 narcomoeba
1 bridge from below
1 raven's crime
2 cabal therapy
1 dread return
win condition (3-4 cards)

Alt win

1 tinker
1 tinker target

Tutors

1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 merchant scroll
4 worldly tutor

Draw

1 brainstorm
1 ponder
1 ancestral
1 time walk

Protection

4 force of will
1 rebuild/hurkyl's
3 duress
2 spell pierce
(possible chain of vapor)

Mana base
15 lands

6 fetch
4 forbidden orchard
2 tropical island
3 underground sea

Accelerants

4 moxen (no pearl)
1 crypt (or pearl)
1 lotus

Available hermit druid wins

Sutured Ghoul + Lord of extinction + Dragon Breath

Sutured Ghoul + 4 Tarmogoyf + Dragon Breath ( Goyfs are plan B in several matches)

Kiki-jiki, Mirror breaker + Karmic guide + Pestermite   (the reveilark kill is also an option)

Cognivore + Dragon breath (requires 24 instants in deck)

3-4 Bridge + Flame-Kin zealot

Krosan Reclamation + Will ( +optional flash of insight) + Tendrils (no Narcs Required)

Sutured Ghoul + Dragon Breath + Street Wraiths

2-3 Sharuum the Hegemon 1 Bridge from Below (total in deck), 1 Akroma's memorial (Sharuum can also be tinker target)

A few things to note.
   The therapies are there solely for offence on the turn you win. you want them to ensure you can go off without any disruption hitting you. to remove chaff from your hand, (and you will often have chaff in your hand) use raven's crime. retracing it once can discard one or two cards from your hand.
after you've flashbacked your therapies, you'll have bridge tokens, the bridge is what lets you dread return and therapy  multiple time with only three narcs in the deck.
   Tinker is really the weakest card in the deck, you really end up going all in when you cast it. Since you really have no draw engine, losing artifact in the 2 for one effect of tinker isn't always worth it.
   You generally want to cast either a first turn hermit or a second turn hermit. The second turn hermit should have either protection, or have duress/therapy cast first to make sure the coast is clear. Since duress is just as important a turn one play as hermit, there's one more underground sea in my list than tropical.
   Don't discount the goyf win as a lot of people do. Having 4 really big and easily castable beaters can make a difference in the tez and stacks matches, and shops matches in general.
   The deck really plays like flash, you should often virtually win on turn one or two, the only difference is that you need to pass the turn. The pass the turn thing is why the deck is analogized to oath far too often.

Tranformational boards

Oath sideboard ~ dodges grave hate in Game 2 and three, but will take up most of your 15 cards

Tinker side board ~(preferred in my opinion, since you can still run several slots dedicated for different matches)

Side board tech

Orchards and misty rain forests in mana base             ~This is so you opponent assumes your playing Oath and not Hermit regardless of what you lead with, and that your playing an Oath board in game two. (note if you actually are playing oath in game two you want this mana base anyways)

Sylvan safekeeper                           ~a solution to darkblast ,   fire // ice, path to exile…  its also tutorable with worldly tutor / living wish

Some results,

Joen (budget tourney) 5th 2009
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38498.0

Pedro García
133 player tournament (5th) 2008
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22337

Victor Fraile
50 player tournament (Split 1st/2nd) 2009
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22821





In closing,

There are three main problems with hermit currently, and two came about with the restriction of brainstorm. the most minor is that Hermit has no solid draw engine. I've tried pretty much every cantrip I can think of to replace brainstorm and ponder and none really work. As far as my list goes, the deck draws with the draw step, which makes the next problem worse. The deck is very reliant on top deck tutors. Thus slowing it down immensely, I've actually cut mystical tutor from my main deck because it doesn't find enough important stuff. Living wish has been mentioned as a way to replace worldly tutors.
The last problem, and largest, is the amount of chaff or junk cards in the deck. You used to be able to keep a hand with some junk because you had a brainstorm, that doesn't happen often any more and your probably more likely to brainstorm into junk now.
 The deck really needs the chaff to be thinned down, right now it's at a point where you have a better chance of drawing something useless than a counter, brainstorm used to help here too.
Lastly, as far as views on grave hate effecting this deck, I actually see them as a benefit. If i can walk into a room and know what every player is going to sideboard against me, that gives me a huge advantage over the field. If i know that before going in, all the better.

[meadbert]

For possible wins I would suggest 2-3xSharuum the Hegemon and Akroma's Memorial.

The advantages are that Sharuum is a built in Tinker Target.  2 Sharuums + Memorial takes the fewest slots and if you run 3 Sharuums then you have 3 of the 4 which can be pitched to Force.

The problem with Spell Pierce is that you do not want to delay playing Hermit by a turn so you have counter backup.  For this reason Misdirection and Daze are better.

Duress is not as bad since Duress + Hermit in opening hand is solid, but if you have to tutor to find Hermit then you are stuck delaying a turn again which is not good.

[jovialevil]

Delaying by a turn in order to play duress doesn't seem that bad.  Certainly seems less bad than delaying by a turn to use spell pierce, since you can reduce their options for that turn by taking a card.

This deck seems like it could be... not necessarily viable, but at least fun to build as a budget version.  To do that you would probably want to run just green and black, load up on duress and replace the blue draw with dark confidant.  Maybe something like:

4 Hermit Druid
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Sutured Ghoul
4 Narcomoeba
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

1 Worldly Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Dread Return
1 Dragon Breath
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Null Rod

4 Bayou
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Overgrown Tomb

[AmbivalentDuck]

For possible wins I would suggest 2-3xSharuum the Hegemon and Akroma's Memorial.

K, you've got me.  Why memorial?  If Altar of Dementia is in your hand, you could actually hardcast it.  Same outcome.

[median]

For possible wins I would suggest 2-3xSharuum the Hegemon and Akroma's Memorial.

K, you've got me.  Why memorial?  If Altar of Dementia is in your hand, you could actually hardcast it.  Same outcome.

I really like the idea of Sharuum, and I'm kicking myself for not remembering that Ichorid thread where it was mentioned. It'll save me a slot over what I have been using, and the only forceable downside is that I'm now vulnerable to bridge hate.
As far as altar v. memorial, I think they pan out to equal if you have raven's crime, otherwise altar would be the better choice.

The problem with Spell Pierce is that you do not want to delay playing Hermit by a turn so you have counter backup.  For this reason Misdirection and Daze are better.

Duress is not as bad since Duress + Hermit in opening hand is solid, but if you have to tutor to find Hermit then you are stuck delaying a turn again which is not good.

I agree on your opening hand opinions, I added Spell pierce, because Spell pierce + tutor is a less worse opening hand. One thing I've found is that unless the only non nutty card in you opening hand is the tutor, if you have an opening hand with a top deck tutor, -it becomes a pretty bad hand. Living wish isn't that much better, and drops you chances of getting a hermit in your opening hand. I would rarely want to use spell pierce as hermit back up, but it makes the tutor hands marginally better.

[meadbert]

For possible wins I would suggest 2-3xSharuum the Hegemon and Akroma's Memorial.

K, you've got me.  Why memorial?  If Altar of Dementia is in your hand, you could actually hardcast it.  Same outcome.

Null Rod.

EDIT:  Not sure if this is obvious to everyone or not, but one purpose of the Cabal Therapys is to Therapy combo pieces out of your hand when you go off.  If you have Memorial and Dread Return in hand then you just Therapy them out first.

[median]

Just want to point out that Raven's Crime does what meadbert was talking about too, so you have a few options. The only time you'll need to hardcast the junk in your hand is if you draw all your Narcomoebas.

[TheShop]

I have been considering this deck for quite some time, but was never satisfied with it for one reason or another.  My reasons included: a low blue count making FoW difficult to run, weak to yard hate, owned by darkblast currently.

I really like this deck because Hermit is a low-mana, 1 card win condition.  My biggest problem with this deck is that I want to run 4 copies of Summoner's Pact because I hate running topdeck tutors when a free one is available that gets exactly the guy we need on turn 1.  The problem is, that we need a way to win from the yard at instant speed.  I envision this deck eventually working this way (when they mess up and print my instant speed win condition from the yard):

Turn 1
Summoner's Pact-for hermit of spirit guide to play hermit
Land
Mox
Hermit
(could also run Pact of Negation if we could win at instant speed)

Turn 2
Upkeep-Pacts trigger
tap land/mox for 1 green mana
activate hermit

IF they were to print an instant that could be played from the yard to win the game...this deck would be the next Flash in terms of speed, countering power, and consistency.

4 Summoner's Pact
4 Hermit
1 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
1 Misdirection
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 A Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor

1 Demo
1 Vamp
1 Imp Seal

Xx Rest of Deck including that unprinted win condition.

This deck is sooo close to being ridiculous that it drives me nuts that there is no existing instant speed win condition from the yard.  I have even thought of running 4 copies of Stifle and not running Pact of Negation just so you could Stifle the Pact Trigger, and then lay a land on turn 2 and still win.

[median]

I'd love the instant win also, we have reveilark right now, but that needs dread return. I am interested in the whole stifle pact idea. The deck would become a two card combo, stifle+pact. as well as a one card combo, hermit. And would have some disruption in the stifles. I'm going to test it.
Edit; also put the sharuum win in the opening post

[Gambit]

I'd love the instant win also, we have reveilark right now, but that needs dread return. I am interested in the whole stifle pact idea. The deck would become a two card combo, stifle+pact. as well as a one card combo, hermit. And would have some disruption in the stifles. I'm going to test it.

You could then run 2 or so dreadnaughts as a backup plan with the 4 stifle; good to remove to sutured ghoul as well

[AmbivalentDuck]

Shallow Grave and Trickbind are the best effects that come to mind.

[meadbert]

Way back in like 05, my buddy ran Lightning Greaves to deal with the abominable Darkblast.

Turn 1 Lightning Greaves.
Turn 2 Summoner's Pact, Druid, equip, activate.   Dread Return Fattie and then equip fattie and swing.

[TheShop]

Here is the question I came up with last time I considered this deck:

you could run 4 copies of oath with no maindecked creature to get the same effect as hermit and just play combo from the yard-it would pretty much be VromanOath without Iona and do nearly the same thing the hermit deck wants to do.  But Vroman Oath without Iona does not seem as good as with her...this line of thought led me to-if you want to combo out of the yard-play Vroman Oath.

True, the combo becomes 2 cards, but it feels easier to defend and you lose less maindeck slots to combo pieces

[AmbivalentDuck]

Doesn't that combo also require considerably more mana?

[median]

Also on the combo topic, you can win in one turn the same way vroman oath does, (or with tendrils). The Iona effects you have are two Cabal Therapies you can flashback if you have a Bridge in your graveyard. With dragon oath your going to have to wait two activations to win, with combo oath, again two activations; with hermit, one activation.

[Purple Hat]

lord of extinction also works.

[TheShop]

Doesn't that combo also require considerably more mana?

yes it does, but the combo can also win without going to the yard at all, or ever finding oath/Druid

[median]

Here is the question I came up with last time I considered this deck:

you could run 4 copies of oath with no maindecked creature to get the same effect as hermit and just play combo from the yard-it would pretty much be VromanOath without Iona and do nearly the same thing the hermit deck wants to do.  But Vroman Oath without Iona does not seem as good as with her...this line of thought led me to-if you want to combo out of the yard-play Vroman Oath.

True, the combo becomes 2 cards, but it feels easier to defend and you lose less maindeck slots to combo pieces

The ability to have extra tutors and a one card combo over a two card combo are the strengths of hermit. Oath loses those to run basics, avoid grave hate, gain resilience, and free up 13 cards to help it win the game. Thats why in my opinion the oath analogy is incorrect, this deck is much more like a fair flash hulk. Thats one of the many reasons I like the Stifle Pact idea and dislike oath sideboards.
If you want to do well with this deck, try and get the "oops, I win!" hand. Not the drawn out oath lines of play, and build to that effect.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Well with 2UUGG you can win at instant speed by: milling your deck with druid->Krosan Reclamation putting back Quicken+card X->flashback Flash of Insight->cast Quicken drawing card X->Dread Return an instant speed win of your choice (assuming you have at least 3 Narcomoebas in play). With Quicken in your hand it would drop down to 1UGG. Note that this combo works with LED mana if necessary. It also makes running 4xSummoner's Pact and 4xESG a really cool way to build up the necessary mana with a Pact trigger on the stack.

If you really wanted to push the deck I could see getting a really high turn 2 win percentage maybe if you ran stuff like Serum Powder to mulligan into Druid or a Summoner's Pact and ran a ton of mana sources like Chrome Mox and maybe even Mox Diamond to get the necessary 4 colored and 6 total mana you need to combo at instant speed. Then again Serum Powder sucks when you run so many singleton combo pieces so I don't know. I think it would make the deck really streamlined and fast, but weaker than Ichorid to hate.

[TheShop]

Wow, you actually found a way!!! (albeit a mana intensive one).

I like the idea (hillarious), but am curious about how we get the mana on upkeep of turn 2.  You will probably have Land + Mox untapped and a single spirit guide that only gets us about halway there.

[Cyberpunker]

Why not just the Flamekin Elemental kill? Then Hermit Druid just becomes a 1 card KO. Albeit a vulnerable 1 card KO.

[serracollector]

1 question, and it may seem a silly one, but I take it that once you mill your deck with hermit, if you mill 4 goyfs, that they are still 4/5 or 5/6 even in grave?  So they buff Ghoul really well, while also working as a 2nd wc? Or do they count as 0/0 in grave?

[median]

Yes, I believe I mentioned goyfs in the opening post. They are a useful and proven way of winning and I will say again not to discount them, they would be 5/6ish each in grave and exiled.

[KBH]

Well with 2UUGG you can win at instant speed by: milling your deck with druid->Krosan Reclamation putting back Quicken+card X->flashback Flash of Insight->cast Quicken drawing card X->Dread Return an instant speed win of your choice (assuming you have at least 3 Narcomoebas in play). With Quicken in your hand it would drop down to 1UGG. Note that this combo works with LED mana if necessary. It also makes running 4xSummoner's Pact and 4xESG a really cool way to build up the necessary mana with a Pact trigger on the stack.

If you really wanted to push the deck I could see getting a really high turn 2 win percentage maybe if you ran stuff like Serum Powder to mulligan into Druid or a Summoner's Pact and ran a ton of mana sources like Chrome Mox and maybe even Mox Diamond to get the necessary 4 colored and 6 total mana you need to combo at instant speed. Then again Serum Powder sucks when you run so many singleton combo pieces so I don't know. I think it would make the deck really streamlined and fast, but weaker than Ichorid to hate.

Could someone explain some of the various instant kills you can get with Dread Return this way? 

[TheShop]

Reveillark combo from Flash would work.

[median]

Of the kills I know of the lark kill is the only viable one to kill on your upkeep.
One thing I would like to explore would be a vroman oath style win. You would have K reclamation, tendrils of agony, yawgmoth's will and flash of insight as dedicated win cards, and from the hermit combo you would retain only 2 cabal therapy, and 1 bridge. Unlike the other combos drawing any piece other than the bridge would only put you further ahead and with 8 slots free a draw engine could be employed. This would allow for a more control oriented game, but with "more oops I win!" factor than Vroman oath.

a list like,

Deck core

4 hermit
1 bridge from below
2 cabal therapy
1 yawg will
1 k rec
1 flash of insight
1 tendrils

Alt win

1 tinker
1 sphinx

Tutors

1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 merchant scroll
1 lim- dul's vault
1 seal

Draw

1 brainstorm
1 ponder
1 ancestral
1 time walk
1 thirst for knowledge
3 impulse
Protection

4 force of will
1 rebuild/hurkyl's
3 duress
2 spell pierce
1 repeal


Mana base
16 lands

6 fetch
4 forbidden orchard
3 tropical island
3 underground sea

Accelerants

5 moxen
1 crypt
1 lotus

Any thoughts?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

the biggest problem with the deck comes to life after game 1.....because you opponent will most likely be playing anywhere from 3-8 pieces of dredge hate which also hit this deck. Of course you can run the oath transform sideboard. But then your diluting the sideboard to beat other decks....for example

if you run this sideboard....with no orchards main it wud be something like this

4 oath
4 orchard
2-3 oath creatures
4-5 card that help vs tezz/shops/dredge

and on the same note if you play a few orchards main your opponent will be expecting oath. I think the real key is playing 4 goyfs in the maindeck....which work with sutured ghoul or may act as an alternate win. And of course tinker guy is the other route....but is that enough to win a series of games? I would run something like this on my sideboard as I would be playing goyfs

3 bob
2 misdirection
2 jailer
1 rav trap
1 tormods crypt
2 duress
4 natures claim

I put the duress and misd's on the board to make the control matchup for game 2 and 3 a little stronger and the deck will run more like a fish or gat deck. 4 bob may be the right #. The dredge hate is a given as that deck is seeing more and more play. and the 4 natures claim is great vs shops and oath, and maybe bring 1 or 2 in vs tezz

[median]

I think you've nailed it on not playing oath and nature's claim in the side. Nature's claim hits tezz/ oath/ chalice/trinisphere + 99.999% of grave hate. Theres actually only 4 cards it doesn't hit, -ravenous trap, jailer, extirpate, and fairy macabre.  With natures claim in my board I can basically go + 4 natures claim every game two, + 8 dredge hate for dredge, and still have 3 cards to be determined in my board. Having most of the sideboard hate coming at me dealt with, I don't think transforming into oath (or gat) is necessary.

 

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I think you've nailed it on not playing oath and nature's claim in the side. Nature's claim hits tezz/ oath/ chalice/trinisphere + 99.999% of grave hate. Theres actually only 4 cards it doesn't hit, -ravenous trap, jailer, extirpate, and fairy macabre.  With natures claim in my board I can basically go + 4 natures claim every game two, + 8 dredge hate for dredge, and still have 3 cards to be determined in my board. Having most of the sideboard hate coming at me dealt with, I don't think transforming into oath (or gat) is necessary.

 

You got it boss....i simply threw the bobs there to help vs shops and other random shit so they are most likely not worth it overall...And yeah the claim hits almost everything....trap, extirpate, jailer can all be hit by either thoughtsieze or cabal therapy. And jailer is simply awnsered by something like darkblast, fire/ice, or contagion depending on how many black cards you run, or smother....jailer doesn't see a ton of play in the Philly tournament scene either....so a sb could be something like this

4 claim
1 darkblast
2 truth
2 duress
1 rebuild
5 dredge hate


P.S.......IMPULSE IS A VERY GOOD CARD fixer for this deck as it is a similar deck compared to oath it will dig for the win or the protection for the win....and/or strategic planning bc that throws narcs directly into play off the planning

[median]

I think the main cards from that list that should be mandatory are

4 claim

....

1 rebuild
5 dredge hate

If I was going to play this some time soon I would run wipe away in the rebuild spot. I'm not too worried about stacks exploding too quickly with 4 claims and my own clock. What I really don't want is chalice at two, or chalice at one + hate. Wipe away deals with that, it also deals with 2/3 tinker targets and most oath creatures (If they name blue with Iona, I can easily win).
I'm not sure right now if I should build the main for speed, or even try to build for some semblance of resiliency. A resilient main deck would have a more aggressive side board, but I know it would be slower than tps, which is far more resilient than this could ever be.
I almost feel like this is something that could put up good numbers. With natures claim hitting most hate cards and top tier decks, and 3 fetches that can find any of the three duals this deck runs on, I think this is nearing viable.