[Free Article] Visiting Wizards, Reprints and the Reserved List

[Killane]

I would think if anything Wizards should re-print the duals, from there we would have a good idea of what happens to the value of the cards with having very small (at least in comparrison to power) price difference to affect the collectors.  Do it as a boxed set so it won't see Standard Play, and then look at the data after 12-18 months to see if first it increased Legacy participation, and second what effect it had on the price of Revised and older Duals.

My .02

Starting with duals is a good idea, but a boxed set would be absurdly expensive. Instead, new inserts in packs of a core set woudl be a good idea- not part of the set, but inserted into the token place - say 4 to a box or so on average, with a drastically larger print run for that core set than for M10.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Many people seem to think that reprints will not grow Vintage and I would like to challenge that claim. I think that the reason we are ignored as a sanctioned format is because they think it is unrealistic to expect enough people to shell out money for power to keep it a real and ongoing format. A huge Vintage tournament is comparable to a small-medium tournament of any other format. They will never sanction proxies and I find it highly unlikely that sanctioning CE/IE will help the format since it already goes for absurd amounts when it is not even legal. Not to mention that they probably want to make some money off this so that just leaves reprints. It is plain ignorant to think that getting full support from WotC will not grow the format. Just take a look at Legacy. Sanctioned Vintage will certainly attract many people to our format.

I think the main problem here is that people think the monetary border Vintage sets up is not that big of a problem. I see many people comparing Vintage to Standard, and that is absurd. You can play Standard for a decade with the cost of a set of P9, let alone other staples. I don't know why people continue to insist on printing dual lands when it is quite clear from all formats that people are willing to shell out the money for them. Baneslayer is useless once it rotates and it costs as much as if not more than dual lands, and a Tarmogoyf can get you at least two dual lands (for now) and it will be a staple in Legacy and Extended until it is no longer legal. A set of P9 will get you the cards to play at least a dozen decks of your choice in Legacy, anything you want in Extended for at least two rotations, or Standard for a decade. This is a price barrier that will make it impossible to justify sanctioning Vintage, and as such we will remain a borderline casual format.

As it stands I see no reason in getting P9 because it accomplishes nothing. There are no sanctioned tournaments in my area and even if there were I wouldn't bother because either the turnout would be low or it would be too scarce to justify dropping a load of cash like that. Now, if there were something like a Vintage sanctioned FNM every week then I would probably go out and buy power. That won't happen any time soon though because Vintage doesn't have enough support and has a ridiculous barrier of entry.

I think that reasonably buying power at this point falls into one of three categories:

#1. You bought it because sanctioned Vintage happens a lot and you want to have fun playing the format you love.
#2. You have money to spare and did it because you felt like it. Playing with the real cards is cool. Pimp cards are cooler.
#3. You're a dealer.

Buying power when you don't fall into one of those three categories (AKA "the investors") is quite simply put stupid. Don't spend money you don't have on things you don't need. Its like maxing out your credit cards to buy candy because the guy at the candy store made you a pinky promise that he would buy it back after you ate it. The reserve list isn't a legally binding contract and they've broken it before with loopholes.

[TheWhiteDragon]

It seems that several people at least agree the real way to grow Vintage is with WotC support and sanctioned tourneys.  I propose that we as a community put more of our focus and efforts into making this happen.  Reprints are most likely not the way.  It may be that people do not have cash to get P9 and some people are out of the loop because of that, but I am fairly sure that the people who COULD afford power and play T2 instead are because there is no existing T1 support.  A few people might give Vintage a shot if power was cheap and accessible, but a LOT more people would buy into it should there be many more sanctioned tourneys in a large variety of areas.  A Vintage FNM type thing would get a lot more people to pay higher prices to play than would making the cards cheap and there being nowhere to play with your $5 black lotus.

Reprints may or may not help (I highly doubt it would help), but it could ruin non-pimp power prices.  As Marske pulled my comment from my last post and said that cards are not stocks and I should be okay with the potential (or certainty as it seems he has accepted) that cards will and should be worth no more than the cardboard it is printed on, I'll retort.  I agree that cards are not stocks.  I never said they were.  What I DID say is that people who have no stake in price fluctuations (the have-nots) don't care what happens to my power prices.  They'd be all for driving the prices down to a nickel for the P9, cause then they could buy a set.  But the people who have the cards aren't thrilled about potential money loss.  Yes, it is a game.  Yes it is cardboard.  But it IS also a value retainer.  Some go up, some go down.  The value of my collection has upped 40% from what I bought it for in 2001.  So it is a way to make money.  If you disagree, ask any dealer.  Pimp cards will probably stay stable, and foily reprints will probably get pricey too.  The non-pimp old power would probably fall a great deal though as it will no longer appeal to the people that just want the cards nor the people that want the best and pimpest.  This would be my boat.  I agree that investing in cards is not the same as stocks, however it IS the same as any collectible.  Coins, stamps, comics, etc., all retain a value and are not intrinsically worth the cash they sell for.  Some people might invest in gold, a commodity that is a value retainer and sometimes fluctuate up and down based on market forces.  What do you think would happen to all the gold investors if they had felt safe in investing in a proven value retainer and then someone made alchemy possible.  "I can turn my tin foil into gold now.  Sucks for you."  Again...those without any gold holdings would probably love that new development and start wearing 10 cent gold underwear.  But the people that invested in a proven value retainer that became no longer worth its weight in bubble gum would and should have a problem with that.

[Smmenen]

The issue though is that Magic is growing far beyond what it was 3 years ago, let alone 10 or 17 years ago.    As each decade passes, Vintage will become more and more marginalized because of the price of power.   

For that reason -- because I love Vintage -- I support reprints so that Vintage can grow.     The issue in Legacy is even more pressing, as dual lands -- which are as important as basic forest -- are between $50-80 per dual.   

For Vintage, it's absurd that cards that you need to compete competitively in the long run -- power nine -- cost $300 a pop.    It's the same thing: imagine if basic Island cost $300.   

I totally respect the opinions of people who oppose reprints.    I get that cards are worth money.  I own Beta and Alpha Power.   I understand this perspective.     My view is that reprints are worth the monetary loss.  It's about the long-term health of Eternal, not the value of people's collections. 

For those of you who think that I 'sold them out to wizards' : I explained that segments of the Eternal community would strongly oppose reprints of cards on the reserved list.  But I also saidthat many people support them, which is also true. 

I think the obvious way to strike a balance is to implement the program I suggested in my article here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40097.0

In that program, Wizards would allow people to sell Reserved List cards back to Wizards at a 6 month average pre-announcement price.   The details and logistics and all difficulties/obstacles associated with the program are explicated in that article. 

[credmond]

Reprinting power is overkill. You would have to reprint a lot of power for the price to go down enough to where price is no longer a barrier for the newcomer.

A more direct solution to the problem in Vintage is sanctioning proxied tournaments.

And if Wizards decided to print proxies and regulate their use I think there is a lot of leeway to implement their use.

The key is to have the printed proxies not directly compete with the power they stand for and to maintain the collectibility of magic cards as a pillar to the game. A creative way to do that would be to have an expiration date on the proxy itself. That way a player effectively licenses out from Wizards for a nominal fee his or her right to participate in the sanctioned proxied tournaments for a limited amount of time. A proxy that stands for a mox only in the context of sanctioned tournaments and only for a specified period of time will not depreciate a real mox and more importantly it will enable anyone to play Vintage and open the door for full support from Wizards for Vintage tournaments.

Proxies offer the most direct and elegant solution to the barrier of entry problem in Vintage.

[honestabe]

Sanctioned proxied tournaments and reprints for all intents and purposes are the same thing.  HOWEVER, lots of players from other formats feel it's dirty and cheap.  Plus, tabernacle is more than some pieces of power.  Why can't legacy players get proxies?  And if legacy get proxies, why not Extended?  Baneslayers and Goyf are ridiculously expensive. That leads to a whole mess that I'm sure wizards wants to avoid

[Lurker101]

I have a few good examples for why reprinting power may not cause a massive price drop and can make Vintage affordable for most people. It's like collecting books (whether it be comics or regular books) a mint condition copy of the first issue of superman recently sold for what? 1 million dollars? Yet the story from the first issue has been reprinted in other volumes many times SO THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY 1 MILLION to READ IT. The same goes for the books advertised on the back of the New York Times book review every week, the collectible books going for thousands of dollars are often first edition printings or their autographed or both. I believe I recently saw a First American Edition of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone that was autographed go for over $10,000 and Barack Obama's first edition print of The Audacity of Hope signed by him was over $4,000 dollars. These are the "pimp" versions. Yet how many times have each of these books been reprinted? Also, they are both fairly recent printings and should only increase in value over time even as inevitably more copies will be printed each year. You can also read them for free at the library. The Power 9 and similar high value cards had probably fewer printings than the first editions of these books and the older Alpha-Beta cards will always retain their value and increase as long as the format continues and they have a use, the best way to get the format to continue is to reprint some of these expensive staples to lower the entry barrier and make it possible for more sanctioned play. Granted some prices might drop but will probably still be of decent monetary value (I'm thinking of white bordered cards here) and the cards will still be collectible (like someone said earlier CE Power is still expensive and not even legal). Owning an original printing or early printing would be the equivalent of owning a first edition rare book, it's just that more people will be able to read that book.

[yukizora]

I have a few good examples for why reprinting power may not cause a massive price drop and can make Vintage affordable for most people. It's like collecting books (whether it be comics or regular books) a mint condition copy of the first issue of superman recently sold for what? 1 million dollars? Yet the story from the first issue has been reprinted in other volumes many times SO THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY 1 MILLION to READ IT. The same goes for the books advertised on the back of the New York Times book review every week, the collectible books going for thousands of dollars are often first edition printings or their autographed or both. I believe I recently saw a First American Edition of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone that was autographed go for over $10,000 and Barack Obama's first edition print of The Audacity of Hope signed by him was over $4,000 dollars. These are the "pimp" versions. Yet how many times have each of these books been reprinted? Also, they are both fairly recent printings and should only increase in value over time even as inevitably more copies will be printed each year. You can also read them for free at the library. The Power 9 and similar high value cards had probably fewer printings than the first editions of these books and the older Alpha-Beta cards will always retain their value and increase as long as the format continues and they have a use, the best way to get the format to continue is to reprint some of these expensive staples to lower the entry barrier and make it possible for more sanctioned play. Granted some prices might drop but will probably still be of decent monetary value (I'm thinking of white bordered cards here) and the cards will still be collectible (like someone said earlier CE Power is still expensive and not even legal). Owning an original printing or early printing would be the equivalent of owning a first edition rare book, it's just that more people will be able to read that book.

You're right, Alpha/Beta would surely climb a bit. But now, what about Unlimited? White border would seem ugly if it's ever reprinted in Foil or Regular black border. There's not many Unlimited collectors. Or at least not as much as for Beta
After a bit of thinking, I don't think I'd mind if they reprint anything, even if I own a lot of white bordered duals and 8 pieces of WB Power. Eternal cards, reprinted or not, will always climb once they rotated out of Type 2. And if WotC wants money, they'd better sell the duals at a high enough price (More benefits) or if they reprint them in boosters, then, make them rare enough (Just like mythics) for their value to be high enough, and not as regular rares (Which are not worth more than 10$ in the current sets).
Reprinting them as Mythic Rares, for example, would help WotC selling a lot of boosters, and not lower their value too much.
Or buy them all at current prices and then reprint them, but would WotC have enough money to invest for that?

[TheWhiteDragon]

The argument about the books' prices not dropping just further illustrates my point.  Yes, first print runs of these books/comics will retain there value and not drop no matter how many times it is reprinted.  However, if only two or three print runs were made, all of the printings would have value to a respective degree.  If 1000 print runs were made, then only the first run would have any value and runs 2 - 1000 would have the same worthless value.  This is the problem for those that want the cards but didn't care to go to the pimp extreme.  I own everything in Unlimited.  It is a value retainer, and thus why I made the thousands of dollars investment to be able to own them and play, while rightfully expecting them to retain most of their value.  There are only 3 sets of limited printings where these cards were made, and thus the value they have.  Should new sets come out with foily reprints of these Vintage staples, the first editions (and beta as they have different corners) will hold value, but my Unlimiteds would almost immediately cost the same or less than the reprints.  If that means that the foily reprints are as high priced as the unlimiteds, then reprinting serves no purpose, and if unlimited falls to meet the foils (where the goal is to drop the price way down to remove that "barrier" to entry), then Unlimiteds are now 10% of current value.  This punishes players like me who wanted to invest in vintage but not to the point of pimping out my cards.  It's like me buying an economical, reliable car for $20,000 because I need a car, but didn't want to shell out the $60,000 for a BMW...just to find out a week later that a new version of my car just came out and is selling for the price of bicycles.

Again, as I said and as several have echoed, WotC support is the key to Vintage longevity.  I also LOVE the idea of proxies/reprints with an expiration.  This would 1) give WotC income in exchange for their support of Vintage 2) not affect the value of any card prices as Alpha - Unlimited would be useful every year whereas these would be good only for the given year and then no longer sanctioned playable, and 3) lower the cost of entry into Vintage dramatically.  The fact that the cards would expire are no worse than cards rotating out of a format (which people still buy).  Great idea.

[Smmenen]

Reprinting power is overkill. You would have to reprint a lot of power for the price to go down enough to where price is no longer a barrier for the newcomer.

A more direct solution to the problem in Vintage is sanctioning proxied tournaments.

Proxies are not a solution, as they don't help Vintage 20, 30, or 40 years from now.   

[Troy_Costisick]

Reprinting power is overkill. You would have to reprint a lot of power for the price to go down enough to where price is no longer a barrier for the newcomer.

A more direct solution to the problem in Vintage is sanctioning proxied tournaments.

Proxies are not a solution, as they don't help Vintage 20, 30, or 40 years from now.   

Why even wait that far down the road?  What about in 5 to 6 years when duals are over $150 each, Mana Drain and Goyf are $200, and FoW and Wasteland are $80?  People are complaining now about reprinting duals.  Shall we wait until they are twice the price?  How much easier will it be then?  Because in 5-6 years Vintage and Legacy will be out of range for vast swaths of its current participants and certainly for anyone new who might think about picking them up.  We're not going to have to wait 20 or 30 years.  It's going to happen in the next decade and probably sooner. 

And Stephen is right.  Proxies aren't a solution.  Just look at what happened to Vintage tournament attendance post-June 2008. 

[credmond]

Stephen, I am not sure I understand your counterpoint. A proxy system is entirely scalable both in terms of number of proxies and the cards that can be proxied and can adjust to meet future demands.

A mechanic of expiration offers further control over the proxy system.

And a mechanic of tiers (e.g. no proxy for wold championships, 15 or so proxy for local FNM Vintage) offers even further refinement of the proxy system.

The proxy system is designed for the purpose of getting people playing at a modest price and it can flex to fulfill that purpose.

More importantly, the system can be downward adjusted such as when interest in Vintage or Magic in general wanes.

Reprinting power can't be downward adjusted. You can't reclaim power once its printed and it always makes cuts into the intrinsic value of the power nine (i.e. their rarity). Reprinting power as a solution assumes an ever expanding market that will never shrink. However, we all know there will be periods of decline of interest in Vintage and Magic.

In fact, your solution is the short sighted one since it relies on a naive theory of continual expansion.

However, I want to make it clear that I do advocate the reprinting of Legacy staples. Those Legacy staple reprints together with a proxy system for the priceless Vintage treasures is the way to go imho.

And let's be crystal clear here on a very important point, if you really want to get people playing Vintage there really is no more clear and direct way than for Wizards to sanction proxied tournaments. That would bring a lot more people into Vintage. A lot. And I mean a lot. Reprinting power would only generate a trickle of interest since those cards would still be more expensive than most players could hope to acquire a set of. It would still be hard for the average player to enter into Vintage.

[Tiki Walker]

Proxies are not a solution, as they don't help Vintage 20, 30, or 40 years from now.   

As our little project for 2 years have shown me and my friends, we can confirm that the above statement is true.

[arctic79]

Just a few things to consider.  There are probably many reasons why Wotc is considering reprints and why the Vintage community should embrace reprints. 
1) They have seen how many proxy tournaments are going on and Wotc is cut out of the income.  Remember when they tried to crack down on people selling hand drawn proxies.
2) The mass increase in Legacy players shows Wotc that there is interest in the Eternal formats.
3) The sharp increase in the price of Duals, Wasteland, etc. because of the Legacy numbers going up.
4) How better to bolster interest in the Vintage then to have some kids crack a Mox or Lotus in a booster.
5) How better to boost core set sales.  (see Zendikar)  Profit is bottom line for Hasbro.
6) If printed in a core set, the cards in question will no doubt be immediately banned in all other formats, thus negating the "official, sanctioned, proxy idea".
7) Having no clear idea on Wotc's intentions, the reprint may only happen with Magic Online (does it still exest, because I honestly don't know), and have players redeem the cards.
8) I don't know about the rest of you but when I invested money in magic, I consider that money gone.  If somehow I profit it is a bonus.
9) Sports cards are considered collectables and have you seen how the bottom has fallen out of those, and the tactics those companies had to employ to start selling cards again.
10) Finally this directed at the gripers.  You guys are the exact reason Vintage is failing. Because you have an elitist attitude about who can and can not play Vintage.  It's a game, get over yourselves already.

[smasher]

10) Finally this directed at the gripers.  You guys are the exact reason Vintage is failing. Because you have an elitist attitude about who can and can not play Vintage.  It's a game, get over yourselves already.

So according to you then Xbox or PS3 should be free as well along with the new games that come out. If not free then at least at a very small fee that is affordable by your average teenager on a small weekly allowance.
It seems Sony and Microsoft don't view their game systems as anything more than dollar signs. Is it elitist of them to make it a pay to play form of entertainment?


Magic singles are a big income for game stores. These are only obtained through opening packs. Regardless if someone buys a vintage playable single or a standard single the store is making money. This money helps them stay in business to sell more packs. To those claiming vintage brings no money to wizards is a nearsighted claim that fails to see the bigger picture.

I stay far away from standard because I don't want to spend money on a deck that is obsolete in 3 months when the next set comes out or rotations happen that make a deck not function. If I'm spending 200 dollars a playset on Baneslayer and Jace 2 I would fully expect to get more than a year out of them. Same goes with The mana base for standard. If it costs me several hundred to be able to cast spells then I want much more than a year out of that mana base.

[TheWhiteDragon]

The whole "elitist" argument is certainly flawed.  We, as a Vintage community, are not saying to pay out the wazoo or don't play.  We are offering suitable alternatives to grow the community and eliminate money as a boundary while simultaneously not trying to shoot a bullet in our invested money.  I think yearly, perishable proxies are a brilliant idea.  They eliminate the money gap, allow anybody to play Vintage, and earn WotC money, while keeping the value of all editions of REAL cards the same since they are good for play EVERY year.  I have seen on a couple of occasions people arguing that they assume their money spent on the game was "gone" and are fine with that.  Most of us, however, do not feel that way.  I venture to argue that if people really felt money invested in cards was "gone" then power wouldn't cost as much as it does.  And, further,  if it had value only to collectors then there would be NO vintage, period...not 80 player tourneys, not Worlds...nothing....like 10 players in the world.  People who feel they can drop thousands on P9 and think "oh well, money gone," now THAT is elitest.  I assume those are the same people who could wipe their a$$ with twenties and light a cigar with Benjamins.

If I were uncertain, or even slightly unsure, that magic cards would hold a significant portion of their value, then I may have spent about $100 on packs at some point and $1 a set on commons every so often...that is money I can see as "gone" for the sake of a game.  Would I have spent thousands on the whole shebang of Vintage if I thought one day they could all be worth dog kibble without a moments notice?  Hell, no!  I can understand price drops from demand, restricting/bannings, and rotations out of formats, but those are all expected fluctuations.  As it is now, nobody will sell their power (unless paranoia and a Vintage abandonment happens) until WotC announces they will reprint the Vintage staples.  The very same day, the market will be flooded with p9 and everyone's cards will sell for pennies on the dollar.  The people without Vintage cards currently would be happy as balls to see this happen and are the same ones who tell the "elitests" (i.e. "haves") to quit griping and let their investments fall to crap for the benefit of the have-nots.  Unfortunately, as there are more have-nots than haves in the world, WotC will probably reprint rather than do something sensible like sanctioned expiration-dated proxies.

Nevermind more sanctioned tourneys and WotC support...that would just be ridiculous to expect for our format...even if proxies could generate them a ton of cash and boost new card sales for those ever-creeping-into-vintage staples (tarmgoyf, bob, iona, natures claim, lodestone golem, etc.).

I suggest we find a reasonable fix where WotC gets money, Vintage grows, the money barrier is stripped as a hinderance to Vintage, and the "haves" don't lose everything they invested overnight to the glee of the have-nots.

Edit: * I even just thought of a great idea, posting to Troystick's post.  Why not print yearly, expiration-dated, pimp, foily, BB P9 and include them as a bonus rare in place of a common/uncommon/foil in random packs of new sets???  This would not only eliminate money barriers to Vintage, but also generate sales for WotC of new sets while creating interest in Vintage from the Standard player that opens his booster box to pull a pimp, foily Lotus, time vault, and sapphire proxy!  It would let WotC help create interest in the format more than Vintage players already do to bring others in.  It would also surely prompt sanctioned tourneys and WotC support since they stand to make truckloads of money.  They could even be mythic rares or just regular rares going for $20-$50 each.  In 6 years, it pays to have just invested in the actual cards, but if you only feel like playing it for a year to test it out, then lay down $200 to get all the Vintage staples (proxies).  You could even use sharpie.dec to test out your deck and get it perfected, then invest in the proxies in the year you decide to play in the tourneys.  Not bad if you ask me.  If someone is willing to pay $100 on a card that will rotate out of T2, then why not the same price for the tandem of lotus, sapphire, jet, and time vault proxies good for the same 1-year time frame?

[bosoxdave]

Let's start by stating the facts.

If vintage were to grow on its own (i.e. nothing changing except more players) then the value of power will go up proportionally.  This is simple: more demand with a limited supply means higher value.

Vintage has a remarkably high entry cost should someone seek to be able to play sanctioned tournaments with fully powered (generally the most viable decks) or even partially powered (or the equivalent, like dredge with bazaars) decks.

Magic: The Gathering is a hobby.  Like any hobby there are people who go all out and do not allow money to be a hindrance and then there are tiers all the way down to the people that dabble in the hobby.  This does not mean that money spent is not recoverable, just that only a small portion of the population of those in the hobby are willing to spend that money.

Like any hobby, people partake because they derive pleasure from their time spent.  This leads into the concept that the true investment in any hobby is time spent and the reward is a level of pleasure that would not be otherwise derived (sure you could choose another hobby, but then you wouldn't be invested in this debate and likely would not derive the same amount of pleasure per unit of time otherwise you would have maximized that instead of MTG).

Also, like any hobby, there are people and businesses that make it their goal to provide the hobbyists (word?) with the necessities to maximize the pleasure per unit of time.  These are, as stated, businesses and are designed to make a profit.

There are many more facts, but these are the relevant ones to this discussion (though not exclusively so).



So where does that leave us?

It is in the best interest of all vintage players to have more people become interested in vintage thereby increasing the diversity and therefore the enjoyment per time spent for all involved.  

How do we get there?  I do not claim to have the answers, or even an answer, but there are a few concepts that we need to debunk and/or address.  

1.  Reprints will have an effect on prices the question is how much and in which direction.  The concept that printing new classic cards with the same art or with different art will plummet the value of the old cards seems ridiculous to me.  It may lower some of the prices in the short term but if it has the effect of making the format more accessible then it will increase play without a doubt.  I believe that classic pieces will always be far more valuable (and may even increase in price at a faster rate than inflation) based upon every other hobby that has a collectible nature.  Is a 1965 Ford Mustang worth less because they made one in 2010?  Is an original Mickey Mantle baseball card worth less because they have reprinted it?  

2.  If there are more players then we will be able to more fully enjoy the time we spend on this hobby.  Unless you are one of the previously mentioned businesses, it is foolish to engage in a hobby to maintain monetary solvency with money spent.  By nature a hobby costs money for the resulting enjoyment.  From the IRS website:

In order to make this determination (whether you are partaking in a business venture or a hobby), taxpayers should consider the following factors:

    *
      Does the time and effort put into the activity indicate an intention to make a profit?
    *
      Does the taxpayer depend on income from the activity?

This is not to say that one should expect to lose all money spent.  But the idea is that MTG players - vintage players specific to this concept - participate under the belief that they will gain pleasure from their time and money spent.  I submit that there is no better way to gain more enjoyment then to have more people participate, bringing fresh ideas and playing styles.  

I am therefore in favor of reasonable reprints of all high value cards.  I do not own power but I do own close to a thousand dollars in vintage staples from Mana Drain's, to Force of Will's, to duals.  While I would love to see more people playing and my cards to not lose value (or even gain value) I would accept a reasonable decrease in the value of my cards to gain more enjoyment in the format.  And to conclude I cannot fathom that a reasonable reprint (not flooding the market) would significantly devalue my cards and yours, unless they are indistinguishable from the originals.  

Sorry for the long post and the rambling style.

Dave

EDIT:  After posting this reply, I began to read an article by Conley Woods on channelfireball.com.  I found this quote from his article that resonates with the points I attempted to make.  This is also his article about the deck he used to win at Black Gold on March 7th here in Colorado, you can read the tournament report in the appropriate section.

The deck was quite good for me on the day, but could also use some tweaking going forward. Regardless, it managed to snag me a finals split for a Mox Sapphire and Mishra’s Workshop, so no complaining can be had. The bigger take away though, was establishing that Vintage is an unmined wealth of decks and technology. While a few dedicated souls may be working on the format, most seem to be content with playing the staples.

Legacy was in this very state until it started to garner attention from the tournament crowd. Goblins for example, was the best deck for the first 2 or 3 years of Legacy’s creation simply because players were not looking for other outlets. With more Grand Prixs and cash tourneys being given to the format, Goblins have actually fallen out of the ranks of tier 1 even. A pretty big change with just more play being the catalyst.

This brings up the hot topic of reprints. Up front, I must say I am a fan of allowing reprints. As the game has survived over the years, the number of pure collectors has gone down in favor of players. Because of this, I believe the health of a format, and thus the health of the game, should be the priority over keeping some card insanely valuable. That said, I don’t even think reprints will hurt the value of older cards like Power or dual lands!

A card’s price, for the most part, is dictated by how much play it sees. If a rare card, like a Baneslayer Angel, or Black Lotus, or Tarmogoyf, sees a ton of play, it naturally will go up in value. Due to the limited number of cards available for Vintage however, there is also a limit to how many people can play the format. Black Lotus and its brethren, would only go down once reprinted, if some insane amount of Power was printed that exceeded the potential player base ten fold or something ridiculous. Even then, this would likely only impact the value of the unlimited Power, as the Beta and Alpha are still going to be sought out by players looking to pimp their decks. The fact that there is a non-foil Baneslayer Angel does not make the foil one any less expensive. Players who seek that sort of thing always drive the market regardless of alternatives.

Basically, with a reprinting of powerful, old cards, Vintage would likely see a rebirth and have more people playing it than ever, keeping cards approximately valued the same, or even more! In addition, with Legacy being a supported format now, it only makes sense to reprint things like Imperial Recruiter, Grim Tutor, and Force of Will to allow more players the freedom to play the deck of their choosing. The game must be defended and supported first and foremost. It is not as though collectors have been forgotten about, as things like From the Vault have been directed at them specifically. Ironically enough, that product for which collectors have enjoyed is made up entirely of reprints!

We cannot let the past of the game fade away just to keep the prices of certain cards high, especially when reprints do not automatically hinder those prices at all. The game is meant to be played, including those Black Loti and Ancestral Recalls. If we fail to support the older formats by allowing them to run ashore with a lack of cards, we are losing a valuable piece of Magic in the process. I understand it is a tricky and deeper subject than I have laid out, but my opinion remains the same regardless. Thanks for reading.

You can read the article here:
http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/breaking-through-bonding-with-vintage/

[credmond]

The argument that reprinting power won't affect the value of the power cards that much is at odds with the "Let's make Vintage accessible to everyone" goal.

If reprinting power doesn't lower the price of the power cards than how are newcomers supposed to be able to afford to buy themselves into Vintage? People are griping about $80 dual lands. Even if reprinted the power 9 will still be chase rares and probably around $200 a pop at best, probably more. Wow we are really lowering the barrier there. Vintage grows a trickle and Wizards sells a lot of packs. Whose interest is being served here?

If you are serious about bringing more players to Vintage then the most clear and direct way is pushing Wizards to sanction proxied tournaments. Vintage grows a ton and Wizard sells a lot of packs and stores sell a lot of power 9 to satisfy those players who want to bling and finally the Vintage community gets the respect it deserves. Wizards even has the option of printing proxies and regulating their use and otherwise developing the whole proxy system as a way to generate revenue and pull people into the format. It's ridiculous that they ignore the Vintage community to the extent that they do.

I am sorry. If all Wizards does is reprint power I just see it as a money grab that will likely alienate them from the collectors and fracture their consumer base at the same that it boosts sales in the short term.

If on the other hand Wizards sanctions and supports a series of proxied Vintage tournaments, now we are talking! If that happens, then we know that Wizards is looking at Vintage with something other than dollar bills in its eyes and is serious about supporting Vintage for the long term.

[yukizora]

The argument that reprinting power won't affect the value of the power cards that much is at odds with the "Let's make Vintage accessible to everyone" goal.

If reprinting power doesn't lower the price of the power cards than how are newcomers supposed to be able to afford to buy themselves into Vintage? People are griping about $80 dual lands. Even if reprinted the power 9 will still be chase rares and probably around $200 a pop at best, probably more. Wow we are really lowering the barrier there. Vintage grows a trickle and Wizards sells a lot of packs. Whose interest is being served here?

If you are serious about bringing more players to Vintage then the most clear and direct way is pushing Wizards to sanction proxied tournaments. Vintage grows a ton and Wizard sells a lot of packs and stores sell a lot of power 9 to satisfy those players who want to bling and finally the Vintage community gets the respect it deserves. Wizards even has the option of printing proxies and regulating their use and otherwise developing the whole proxy system as a way to generate revenue and pull people into the format. It's ridiculous that they ignore the Vintage community to the extent that they do.

I am sorry. If all Wizards does is reprint power I just see it as a money grab that will likely alienate them from the collectors and fracture their consumer base at the same that it boosts sales in the short term.

If on the other hand Wizards sanctions and supports a series of proxied Vintage tournaments, now we are talking! If that happens, then we know that Wizards is looking at Vintage with something other than dollar bills in its eyes and is serious about supporting Vintage for the long term.

I think you miss one point, which is that supply / demand would be important to determine the price.
If supply is high enough, power won't be expensive. But now it's up to WotC.

[RecklessEmbermage]

The last pages of this thread, while mostly well written, are largely repeating earlier arguments.

One fairly crucial point that I don't think have been raised yet is that reprinting of some vintage and legacy staples (power, duals, shops, forces..) with ensuing popularity rise of the eternal formats will have assymetrical effects on prices of existing cards.

While unlimited or other "non-pimp" versions of those cards are likely to loose value, most reasonably heavily played cards that are not reprinted will gain value. Cards like demonic tutor, daze, fire-ice, entomb, sphere effects...

Would that sugar the pill somewhat for all the unlimited power owners and traders out there?

Wizards could of course try to adjust prices symmetrically, while making more money, say by printing ready-made tournament winning decks from star players or by printing master's editions on paper (real ones, not the lame-ass legends and portal three kingdom re-runs they push people to draft on mtgo). While still requiring a very high prize to not create windfall profits for store owners, mixing low-value cards with high-value ones would make the products appealing to a broader set of players. If this kind of "masters edition" was to be sold in boosters, it would probably demand a whole new scale of rarities, since the eternal formats could absorb a lot more mana drains than imperial recruiters (to choose two cards with similar price, yet a clear disparity in popularity) before halving their prize. (I may be way off on that one. Do you think P3K rares would be considered as "pimp cards"?)

[arctic79]

10) Finally this directed at the gripers.  You guys are the exact reason Vintage is failing. Because you have an elitist attitude about who can and can not play Vintage.  It's a game, get over yourselves already.

So according to you then Xbox or PS3 should be free as well along with the new games that come out. If not free then at least at a very small fee that is affordable by your average teenager on a small weekly allowance.
It seems Sony and Microsoft don't view their game systems as anything more than dollar signs. Is it elitist of them to make it a pay to play form of entertainment?


Magic singles are a big income for game stores. These are only obtained through opening packs. Regardless if someone buys a vintage playable single or a standard single the store is making money. This money helps them stay in business to sell more packs. To those claiming vintage brings no money to wizards is a nearsighted claim that fails to see the bigger picture.

I stay far away from standard because I don't want to spend money on a deck that is obsolete in 3 months when the next set comes out or rotations happen that make a deck not function. If I'm spending 200 dollars a playset on Baneslayer and Jace 2 I would fully expect to get more than a year out of them. Same goes with The mana base for standard. If it costs me several hundred to be able to cast spells then I want much more than a year out of that mana base.

Just what are you trying to say?  Your point makes no sense.  When I purchased my Wii I fully understood that I will never recoup that money with money, I will get value for the pleasure it brings.  No one plays video games for profit do they? 

Yes, Singles are an important aspect of Wotc's bottom line, but I bet if you asked any dealer out there, and I have made this point before in other posts, they would rather sell 10 black lotuses at value X then having 1 black lotus sit in the showcase for 3 months at value Y.

@TheWhiteDragon
I could get behind the proxy thing if it was the only solution.  Where it falters though is you may as well reprint the cards if you are going to go through this much trouble for a handful of people that are concerned about their card values (or as they like to put it their "investment").   Consider this for a moment, Wotc reprints P9, duals and some other hard to obtain Eternal staples only once and do not reprint for another 15 years. What do you think will happen to your P9 value in the long term?  I think it would more than likely go up.  Think of it as a stimulus package for wotc and the Eternal formats.

[Aace]

Just what are you trying to say?  Your point makes no sense.  When I purchased my Wii I fully understood that I will never recoup that money with money, I will get value for the pleasure it brings.  No one plays video games for profit do they? 

Uh... google goldfarmer, google Fatal1ty, google Fragdolls.
 
We really need to end these archaic line of thoughts in this thead. Fact: people invest in internet companies, comic books, video games, wine, and guess what, MAGIC.

It's almost absurd to compare Magic to a Wii, they have nothing in common other then the fact that they are both a part of entertainment. Magic has more in common with an issue of Newsweek than Wii.
 
On to your main point, video game consoles are not designed to be collectable (although many collect them), people know this going in. However, magic IS designed to be collectable, and people went in to Vintage in particular, with a sense to retained value. Again, just because you 'lose money' on other entertainment options, doesn't mean you have to do so here.

People who call those who don't wish for reprint elitist are quite ridiculous. If you want to compare Vintage to other hobbies, you might as well compare it to F1. Only a hand full of people can race in F1, those who do need a ton of money from corporate backing. Those with less money from sponsors race in lesser leagues. Do you see drivers cry about how F1 drivers are elitist, and ask for the authority to allow EVERYONE to join F1? Fact of the matter is, Magic is a hobby built on money, like any other. Even in T2, those without means simply play a cheaper deck, rather than cry to wizards to give away free BSA and Jace 2.0 in order for everyone to be able to afford whatever the hell deck they want. If wizards were to do that, there would be no expensive cards that are played competitively, PERIOD. Whenever something is expensive, wizards would have to step in to artificially curb the price? That sounds like communism to me.
 
Fact of the matter is, people should play according to their means. If you can't afford to eat at Robuchon, then don't eat there, eat at MacDonalds. It's ridiculous to hold a sign outside of Robuchon to ask them to decrease their price. You are NOT entitled to Vintage, or magic, for that matter. If you can't pay to see a movie, then don't see it. To say everyone deserves to play whatever the hell they want is ridiculous, and unrealistic.
 
Lastly, there IS something resembling a solution in vintage, it's called proxy tournaments. People can easily play in proxy tournaments if they want to play vintage (in the states at least), yet they're simply not doing that. To say that card availability is THE reason vintage is unpopular is faulty.

[bosoxdave]

People who call those who don't wish for reprint elitist are quite ridiculous. If you want to compare Vintage to other hobbies, you might as well compare it to F1. Only a hand full of people can race in F1, those who do need a ton of money from corporate backing. Those with less money from sponsors race in lesser leagues. Do you see drivers cry about how F1 drivers are elitist, and ask for the authority to allow EVERYONE to join F1? Fact of the matter is, Magic is a hobby built on money, like any other. Even in T2, those without means simply play a cheaper deck, rather than cry to wizards to give away free BSA and Jace 2.0 in order for everyone to be able to afford whatever the hell deck they want. If wizards were to do that, there would be no expensive cards that are played competitively, PERIOD. Whenever something is expensive, wizards would have to step in to artificially curb the price? That sounds like communism to me.
 

So first you say that comparing MTG to a Wii is absurd and then you compare MTG to a major international sport where the deciding factor on who gets to the top and who doesn't is almost exclusively based on skill, not a check book?  Get a grip! 

If you want to compare it to cars look at the car collector market; not only is this a hobby, it is tiered like MTG both in age and in value.  There is no evidence to suggest that a 1963 Corvette has lost any of its value even though there is a functionally identical (for argument's sake) made in 2010.  People don't buy Corvette's just for their functionality, they buy Corvette's from different generations for the differences in style and the availability of money to spend.  Much like in magic, if they reprint a Black Lotus with different art, it will never be that 1963 Corvette, it will be a 2010 Corvette.  It will still be valuable but it cannot ever be, or replace, the Classic. 

[Killane]

Just what are you trying to say?  Your point makes no sense.  When I purchased my Wii I fully understood that I will never recoup that money with money, I will get value for the pleasure it brings.  No one plays video games for profit do they? 

Uh... google goldfarmer, google Fatal1ty, google Fragdolls.
 
We really need to end these archaic line of thoughts in this thead. Fact: people invest in internet companies, comic books, video games, wine, and guess what, MAGIC.

It's almost absurd to compare Magic to a Wii, they have nothing in common other then the fact that they are both a part of entertainment. Magic has more in common with an issue of Newsweek than Wii.
 
On to your main point, video game consoles are not designed to be collectable (although many collect them), people know this going in. However, magic IS designed to be collectable, and people went in to Vintage in particular, with a sense to retained value. Again, just because you 'lose money' on other entertainment options, doesn't mean you have to do so here.

People who call those who don't wish for reprint elitist are quite ridiculous. If you want to compare Vintage to other hobbies, you might as well compare it to F1. Only a hand full of people can race in F1, those who do need a ton of money from corporate backing. Those with less money from sponsors race in lesser leagues. Do you see drivers cry about how F1 drivers are elitist, and ask for the authority to allow EVERYONE to join F1? Fact of the matter is, Magic is a hobby built on money, like any other. Even in T2, those without means simply play a cheaper deck, rather than cry to wizards to give away free BSA and Jace 2.0 in order for everyone to be able to afford whatever the hell deck they want. If wizards were to do that, there would be no expensive cards that are played competitively, PERIOD. Whenever something is expensive, wizards would have to step in to artificially curb the price? That sounds like communism to me.
 
Fact of the matter is, people should play according to their means. If you can't afford to eat at Robuchon, then don't eat there, eat at MacDonalds. It's ridiculous to hold a sign outside of Robuchon to ask them to decrease their price. You are NOT entitled to Vintage, or magic, for that matter. If you can't pay to see a movie, then don't see it. To say everyone deserves to play whatever the hell they want is ridiculous, and unrealistic.
 
Lastly, there IS something resembling a solution in vintage, it's called proxy tournaments. People can easily play in proxy tournaments if they want to play vintage (in the states at least), yet they're simply not doing that. To say that card availability is THE reason vintage is unpopular is faulty.

Looking at magic as an investment is a very poor investment strategy, Period. There is a huge risk of loss, no dividend, and it only has niche appeal so it can take forever to move the investment if you decide to liquidate. Crying about card vlaues going down is just silly- if you picke dit as an invesment, you made a bad choice.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Fact of the matter is, Magic is a hobby built on money, like any other. Even in T2, those without means simply play a cheaper deck, rather than cry to wizards to give away free BSA and Jace 2.0 in order for everyone to be able to afford whatever the hell deck they want. If wizards were to do that, there would be no expensive cards that are played competitively, PERIOD. Whenever something is expensive, wizards would have to step in to artificially curb the price? That sounds like communism to me.

You need a lecture in political economy.

[Aace]

So first you say that comparing MTG to a Wii is absurd and then you compare MTG to a major international sport where the deciding factor on who gets to the top and who doesn't is almost exclusively based on skill, not a check book?  Get a grip! 

Context, my friend, context.
 
I compared the PLAYING/SPORTING part of magic with F1. Actually, I find your statement to be pretty hilarious. I'm not sure what you're implying, are you implying that money/donors doesn't matter in F1, or are you implying that Magic is not a skill based game?
 

Looking at magic as an investment is a very poor investment strategy, Period. There is a huge risk of loss, no dividend, and it only has niche appeal so it can take forever to move the investment if you decide to liquidate. Crying about card vlaues going down is just silly- if you picke dit as an invesment, you made a bad choice.

1. You do realize that the majority of investment options out there do not pay dividend, right? In fact, most stocks don't even pay dividend.
2. Liquidity of cards depend entirely on the type of card you invested in. To say duals, or extended/std/legacy staples take forever to move is factually incorrect. They are easier to liquidate than a PE investment, or any structured product.
3. I didn't say I take cards as investment, nor did I 'cry about card value'. I simply stated that investing in cards isn't a 'bad choice'. To say that in absolute terms means you know nothing about investment. Say you buy duals in 2007, and you buy the equivalent amount in blue chip stocks in the same year, this year your card value would have gained 30% or more, while your stock would still be down.
 

You need a lecture in political economy.

I'm all ears.

[bosoxdave]

So first you say that comparing MTG to a Wii is absurd and then you compare MTG to a major international sport where the deciding factor on who gets to the top and who doesn't is almost exclusively based on skill, not a check book?  Get a grip! 

Context, my friend, context.
 
I compared the PLAYING/SPORTING part of magic with F1. Actually, I find your statement to be pretty hilarious. I'm not sure what you're implying, are you implying that money/donors doesn't matter in F1, or are you implying that Magic is not a skill based game?
 

Neither.  Context my friend, context.

Money and donors certainly matter in F1, likely more than in any other major international sport.  Magic is most definitely a skill based game, it is remarkably close to playing chess, but with your own "pieces". 

What I am stating, not implying, is that skill is not relevant to participation in magic.  Any one with the money can play in any Vintage tournament.  This is fundamentally untrue of F1.  Therefore your comparison is beyond weak, it cannot be compared with any relevance whatsoever.

[Killane]

Looking at magic as an investment is a very poor investment strategy, Period. There is a huge risk of loss, no dividend, and it only has niche appeal so it can take forever to move the investment if you decide to liquidate. Crying about card vlaues going down is just silly- if you picke dit as an invesment, you made a bad choice.

1. You do realize that the majority of investment options out there do not pay dividend, right? In fact, most stocks don't even pay dividend.
2. Liquidity of cards depend entirely on the type of card you invested in. To say duals, or extended/std/legacy staples take forever to move is factually incorrect. They are easier to liquidate than a PE investment, or any structured product.
3. I didn't say I take cards as investment, nor did I 'cry about card value'. I simply stated that investing in cards isn't a 'bad choice'. To say that in absolute terms means you know nothing about investment. Say you buy duals in 2007, and you buy the equivalent amount in blue chip stocks in the same year, this year your card value would have gained 30% or more, while your stock would still be down.

I think it's funny that your overly simplistic analysis of the situation leads you to believe that I "know nothing about investments". Rather than read you my resume, I'll address your points.

1. Yes, I am well-aware that many (perhaps most) stocks do not pay dividends. However, higher-grade investments like stocks do. You seem to be very risk-adverse, seeing as you are highly concerned with potential loss in investment value. Dividends paying stocks, especially stocks with a history of consistent dividends, are considered a lower investment risk than stocks that do not pay dividends, as they offer returns upfront to mitigate the potential of capital loss, and are also demonstrative of an overall positive financial profile for the issuing company. If you are a risk-adverse individual who wants exposure to the potential gains form stock investments, it is an intelligent choice to pick dividend-paying stocks.

2. As I mentioned, I was specifically referencing Power as opposed to duals. Duals are a separate discussion, but the plain fact is that Legacy is not sustainable as a format given its current level of growth and the price of duals being what they are. Power is quite difficult to move (most shops around here carry it for months  before getting a sale, and usually end up offering it as a prize for a tournament after not being able to find a buyer), and woudl be even more difficult if a need to liquidate became apparent. Loss potential is extremely high, and with Vintage being largely unsanctioned and unsupported, growth potential seems quite limited.  How much higher can it really go without format revitalization? While it has shown tremendous growth over the past 15 years, it has been virtually static since 2008.

3. This is a completely absurd statement. Duals have grown in 3 years and many stocks are down, but this is a very short-term period of time to review, and is also rather subjective as there are plenty of investments that have offered positive returns over the same time period. The Bank I work for is up since 2007, and once the annual dividend is taken into account, returns in that time period would be very similar to a set of blue duals.

I can also hold stock in my bank, collect a dividend every year, and still expect it to be valuable when I retire in 34 years. Can I say the same of a magic card? There is no reason for me to believe that this gaem ahs that level of longevity. There is no reason for me to belive otherwise, however it quite a risky proposition.

Is it a collectable card game? yes. Does "collectable" imply an abiliy to retain value? yes. However no one is suggesting re-relasing Beta, with the original frames, typset, color scheme, etc... If you own a valuable Babe Ruth Rookie baseball card and the same compnay decides that, so the whatever anniversary of his playing the game they are going to release a "limited edition" 10,000,000 card print run of his Rookie card with a "xth anniversary" gold embossment on the front and no other differences, what is your expected result?

a) the value of your card tanks due to the new print run.
b) the value of your card remains stable, as it is its age, rarity, and nostalgic appeal that contribute to its value, none of which are impacted by the new run
c) the value of your card will rise, due to b), above, plus potential new interest in this card as more individuals become exposed to it via the reprint.

The correct answer is C.

Now, you counter with:

"but this is a collectable card game which means that value is impacted by B above, plus utility, and if the new run offers the same utility as the old run, than it will impact on the portion of the value dereived from utility"

Or somethign to that effect. Goof for you. good arguement. However, all you have succeeded in doing is pointing out why a CCG is a worse investment than straight up collectables- because it has an additional vaiable that is outside of the collectable aspect of valuation.

In other words, the collectable aspect of value remains, and you've presented a straw-man arguement against reprints, as your whole arguement hinges on the "collectable aspect", which I think has been solidly proven to be non-impacted by reprints.

[RecklessEmbermage]

You need a lecture in political economy.

I'm all ears.

Well, ok.

Obviously, WotC is not the government of a country. Still, and since you brought up communism, I can easily draw a parallel between governance of countries and governance of WotC (Hasbro).

Just like the USA (believed by most to not be communist) subsidizes gasoline, WotC may want to curbe the price on dual lands. Providing access to cheap fuel may cost billions of dollars every year, but it is believed to be crucial for sustaining continued economic growth and results in high government revenues. It is not unreasonable to consider duals the "gasoline" of the eternal formats. They are needed in most of the top decks and limited access to these is probably choking tournament attendance in those formats. If wizards was to give away duals to new players on a yearly basis (the analogy breakes down since they are selling the commodity in question, but bear with me) it could be easily justified if the eternal formats could be shown to grow as a result, with increases in sales of new cardboard.

WotC can make revenues directly, rather than just indirectly, making it a win-win opportunity for them. However: If the reaction of players and dealers is to move out of the market, either because they loose money on their investments (yes, vintage staples is, or atleast has been, a safer investment than putting money in the bank) or because their format gets infested with pesky T2 players or forever other reason, WotC risks a market and format collaps. This is the real cost of reprinting duals, while the cost of subsidizing gasoline is fundamentally different (large sums of money and a swath of environmental consequences).

That is not to say that reprinting duals is the only way of making the eternal formats grow. Where I'm from (Norway), a liter of gasoline costs 1.8-2 dollars (how much in the states? 50 cents?). This is due to heavy taxation and has some intrigueing results: Industry pollutes far less than in the US and cars are smaller. Still, a few wealthy individuals choose (and are free to do so, as long as they pay their due) to drive around in hummers and cadillacs. I believe eternal communities on a global scale are somewhat similar: Very few players and collectors own power, a considerable substrata (I fall into this category) need to have a pretty good reason for buying dual lands and most are just "playing with older cards", sometimes using the restricted list or legacy banned list for the sake of fairness. As long as more and more players get to like the game and some of them choose not to buy all the new cards each year, eternal will grow.

But it would probably grow faster if more players had the tools to compete in high publicity tournament play.

-----------------------------------------

I guess this was all just common sense, not a lecture in political economy. That wasn't really needed afterall.

[CorwinB]

After reading the back and forth in this thread, one thing is made abundantly clear : as far as divisiveness is concerned, the Reserved List is the new Restricted List.