[Free Article]Fuel to the Fire: My Thoughts on the P9 & the Reserve List

[Stormanimagus]

If Sol Ring were not in Revised, what would the Beta price be?  Much higher than it is now.

How can you say that with any kind of certainty at all?  Sol Ring is an uncommon restricted to 1 per deck in the game's least popular constructed format.  Casual appeal aside, demand for this card is quite low and there are no parallels to look at.  Similar cards like Regrowth, Demonic Tutor, and Mana Vault were reprinted in Revised as well.  There's really nothing empirical to back up your assertion.  Higher?  Maybe.  Much higher?  Certainly not. 

Because I understand the theory of supply and demand?  I don't have the exact print runs, but what I've found is:
Alpha - 2.6 million
Beta - 7.3 million
Unlimited - 40 million
Revised - 500 million

If the 500 million * prob(Sol Ring | Revised) Revised Sol Rings didn't exist, and there was no change to the demand curve for Sol Rings, A/B/U editions Sol Rings would be much more expensive.  The only thing that might affect Sol Ring's price in that scenario would be if it were banned in EDH/organized casual play, a ban which would be enacted due to its price.  Alternatively, if it didn't appear in Revised it may be much more of a collector's item, and BB Sol Rings may be in much higher demand among collectors than they are now.

I think it's really dangerous to say 'casual appeal aside' for what may be the best and most sought after casual card of all.  This isn't Sneak Attack we're talking about, it's Sol Ring!  It's misleading and wrong to say that 'maybe' the price would be higher if there were 1/10th as many Sol Rings out there as there are now.

Those numbers have to be horribly off. With 7 million Beta Lotuses around they would sell for like $2 each. I'm pretty sure it is closer to 10,000-30,000. Not to mention 500 million of each Revised Dual land wtf?

the numbers are accurate, but for total print run.
alpha rares=1100
beta rares=3000
unlimited rares=25000
revised=350-400k

If these numbers are accurate then the total number of players who could play 4X Underground Sea in Legacy would be (maximum):

107,275

That seems like a lot of players with the ability to play Legacy with 4X of a card that is very important for deckbuilding. I mean, some of those copies are lost on collectors and casual players, but surely the number of Seas floating around is enough to serve major Legacy tournaments.

For instance, lets look at the recent Grand-Prix Madrid. The attendance was in excess of 2,200 players. If each of those players chose to play a deck requiring 4X Underground Sea that would be 8,800 Underground Seas floating around at 1 tournament. Now this isn't a huge problem for card availability until the total number competitive Legacy Players starts approaching 50,000-100,000 worldwide. Once numbers start getting up to that level then perhaps we should start worrying. Are they? Questions? Comments? Problems with my math?

-Storm

[TheWhiteDragon]

Why is it WoTC's responsibility to maintain the value of your cards? Since when was this an obligation of thiers?

I would pay current prices for unlimited power over paying for Foil reprints. I want the real thing, and reprints would nto change that. Woudl I buy the new ones first? sure I would for financial reasons. But i plan on buying (or winning) a full set of unlimited power somewhere down the road, and thaty would not change.

Technically it isn't WotC's responsibility to maintain the value of my cards, however, if their goal is to grow the community, then they probably wouldn't want to alienate the current players for the chance at getting in some new ones.  I would assume they would make a responsible move to attract new players while maintaining old ones.  The reserved list was created as an implication (albeit not an iron-clad garauntee) to collectors and players that these cards are collectable and will hold worth (potentially increasing) in the future.  To change all that now would be akin to me printing a "limited edition" stamp from USPS and saying it will not be printed again to drive sales.  Then once they all sold out at high prices, I reprint them all again and say "haha, more money for me."  Creating the reserved list was a way to entice collectors to collect and players to invest money into packs of cards so they wouldn't feel that the money was gone forever like buying packs of bubble gum.  To use that strategy to drive sales and appeal to collectors and then yank the rug out from under them when the game took off and it was no longer profitable to maintain the policy seems a bit unconscionable even if totally legal.  Creating the policy to get the game a solid foothold only to change it after the fact basically mocks collectors for taking WotC at their word.  I know business is business and the dollar is king, but I also tend to think companies should stand by their word and not sucker in buyers with a "protection" policy and then go against it for earning extra cash.

And while you would strive to put together a set of unlimited/revised staples in lieu of foil reprints, I, on the other hand, just want to own the cards, and the cheapest version at that.  Thus why I own Unlimiteds to begin with and not BB.  If I were given early notice that the entirety of beta was being reprinted, I'd sell off my whole Unlimited/revised collection and buy all foily reprints and pocket the thousands of dollars while still owning a playable copy of each card.  Pimp matters to those who want pimp and cheap matters to those who just want the cards.  Most players fall into that camp and very few would seek out Unlimiteds given the options of BB originals or foily BB reprints.

[CorwinB]

Why is it WoTC's responsibility to maintain the value of your cards? Since when was this an obligation of thiers?

Ah, but that's exactly what they did when they introduced the RL in the first place. We can argue all day on how the RL currently doesn't serve its intented goal, or prevents growth of Eternal formats, and by what amount WotC are stretching it with things like "Premium" foils in Duel Decks, but the fact is that, at the moment, the Reserved List and its implications are official company policy, and a step taken by WotC to protect the collectability of certain cards. Now, collectability doesn't strictly equals monetary value, but it's clearly part of it.

I would pay current prices for unlimited power over paying for Foil reprints. I want the real thing, and reprints would nto change that. Woudl I buy the new ones first? sure I would for financial reasons. But i plan on buying (or winning) a full set of unlimited power somewhere down the road, and thaty would not change.

I suspect you would be in the minority here. Most people would either go with the cheaper alternative (reprint) or for the pimpest stuff on the block (AB Power). If Reprints are "pimper" than Unlimited (Black borders, Foils) and available in large enough amounts, the drop in price for Unlimited may be quite severe. BTW, Tournament-legal reprints would be "the real thing" too. Official proxies (say with different back, only playable in sleeves) wouldn't.

[o uncola o]

I don't understand the concept of "more cards=lower values" beta is worth more than alpha, theres twice as much beta as alpha. New power will probably be worth more and drive prices of the old stuff up. Great read, I should follow your blog more closely.

Disagree.  Basic supply and demand.  More cards would undoubtedly drive prices down.  No two ways about it.  It may be offset to some small degree by increased interest in vintage, but I think that is doubtful at best.  Take "Sol Ring" as an example.  Card sees lots of play.  If it was Alpha, Beta, Unlimited only, the card would be worth quite a bit.  Look at it's value.  Because of all of the re-prints, it is not too expensive.   Beta is like $75 and unlimted is $15-20.    Just my $.02

This is a gross misinterpretation of the law of supply and demand: a reprint is not an equivalent of the original.  They are on a completely different demand curve.  Sure, it is a substitute, which would tend to bring down the price of the original- but only to the extent that the play function drives the price.  Does a PSA grade 9 lotus cost the same as an unlimited one?  Does the fact that an unlimited copy exists lower the value of that beta copy?   No.   For collectibles, the subsitutes makes less of a difference because the beta power curve is very inelastic (it's like crack rocks-it could be a million dollars and junkies would still purchase it) becuase an adequate substitute does not exist.

Price is always influenced down by increased supply regardless of elasticity.  Elasticity does influence the degree price will be influenced, but I fail to see how my statement is "a gross misinterpretation of the law of supply and demand".

[TheShop]

Even if the price does drop, the drop would be so small for Alpha and Beta power that only those holding Unlimited power would be greatly influenced (because the new substitute would only substitute for the reprint...not the collectors item-the black border).  A new template copy of Power that is unplayable in all formats except the most niche format in existence would not change the value of the original.  It would not create more copies of the original.  The value added for playability is low.  Beta Power is iconic.  Power is a collector's item.  Alpha power may as well be a comic book in terms of its game-play abilities and the value is still greater than gold per oz.   That is why the price is inelastic.  The people who want a collector's piece of power will still pay high dollar for the limited copies regardless of the fact that a new $10 copy (that I just created for argument) exists.

You can find a beat version of sol ring, or a washing machine lotus for a fraction of the value of the nicer ones.  The fact that it still taps for mana does not matter to the majority of collectors (who are the people shelling out the cash).

The reason why your statement was a gross misinterpretation of supply and demand is because it is an oversimplification.

I personally believe that the curve on lowering the price of the originals by printing additional copies is drastically tapering off.  If anything, copies would raise the interest in the format, which would cause the play value to rise (possibly offsetting any loss incurred).  Also, if the cards were printed in a way that effected standard or extended, the market for the originals would grow...demand would shift, and the older copies would rise in value.

Finally:  How much would the Alpha & Beta copies be worth if no Unlimited & Revised copies existed?  More.  Obviously.  But since these reprints already exist, and because of the other factors I have discussed, a new printing of less desirable copies would not have the dramatic effect on Alpha and Beta copies that many would have us believe.

Oddly enough, during the Mirrodin period (when we saw some of the highest inflation in high-dollar card prices since the game's inception)- proxies were rampant in most Vintage tournaments...these are also substitutes.

[TheWhiteDragon]

At "The Shop"

Your argument seems to echo what many already said in that Alpha/Beta will not suffer.  You also seem to realize that Unlimited/Revised would have a substantial amount to lose.  Also, you state that the "collectors" are the one shelling out the cash.  I am first and foremost a player.  I don't value the cards as a collection, but do see them as something I spent a buttload of cash on with a reasonable expectance that the prices wouldn't fall out at the bottom overnight (as the RL and 15 years of the game would suggest).  It seems that while you acknowledge the "rookie" versions of the cards won't suffer tremendously, you are aware, and apparently okay with, unlimited crashing in price to near the level of reprints.  I would only logically assume you don't have your complete set of staples in all white-border as I do.  I understand that many want new sets of real power out and about and aren't on the proxy bandwagon...but, given my proposed idea on the sanctioned proxies, or any suitable substitute, wouldn't it seem better to find a solution that would help all and hurt none rather than totally screwing a guy who has the cheapest collection of all the staples like myself?  As there are far more white bordered printings, I am certain there are many people like me that have the cheapest version of the power/duals/etc., and not the exorbatant cash needed to pimp out their decks.  Why do you seem okay with people in this boat just losing their money because they didn't pay the extra for BB?  Is a few thousand dollars not good enough?  Must I spend 10K to ensure the value of my cards from not plummeting to $300 because people that have neither edition want cheap reprints?  How can you be cool with white-border losing substantial value so long as the pimp cards stay fine, when so many more of people's power IS white-bordered due to available quantity?

[BruiZar]

I don't understand the concept of "more cards=lower values" beta is worth more than alpha, theres twice as much beta as alpha. New power will probably be worth more and drive prices of the old stuff up. Great read, I should follow your blog more closely.

Still a legality/aesthethics thing. Alpha corners are different. The printrun for CE is even lower, that doesn't mean that CE power is worth more than beta or alpha.

As I contended before, it is not the Alpha/Beta value that will decrease, but Unlimited/Revised will more than likely plummet as they neither fit the mold of cheapest nor pimpest.  I do not understand what a reprint will accomplish that sanctioned proxies will not.  I could see the push for reprints when a sound proxy theory had not been established, but since a viable proxy option has now been mentioned, what benefit would reprints have that proxies would not, other than cheaply getting power into the hands of those without it currently?
Reprints/Proxies aside, I think all can agree that a greater amount of sanctioned tourneys will be the most effective way of driving Vintage growth.  But as far as making staples accessible, I think a proxy run that comes out every other year with a set of staples, distributed widely as an extra card in new set packs, would do everything a reprint would without adversely affecting real card prices.  If I am mistaken, please show me how.
As far as Xth anniversary edition not affecting Babe Ruth cards...I agree, it would not drop Rookie cards or cards printed in the year in which he played for particular teams, etc.  But Magic cards are different in that everything beyond Beta is just "another printing" of the card.  Unlimited duals vs Revised duals don't have nearly the margin that Unlimited vs beta do.  If the cards were all just printed again in sets from hereon out, then only the "rookie" versions (beta too as it has different corners) would hold value, and everything else would depreciate.  Much like 1st edition books have a high value, second editions, etc., only have value if they were limited runs or if it only ran in a few editions and stopped.  Books that are reprinted every year have a high value of first editions, and everything thereafter is relatively similar in value, which is much less than the first run.
I, as a person with all Unlimiteds/Revised staples stand to lose much more than people with pimp sets.  If Beta cards drop $20 each and Vintage grows, it is a win for them.  If Unlimited drops to $50 a card and Vintage grows, then i get more people to play with and lost thousands of dollars.  This also assumes that putting more cards into circulation would even help vintage.  There are many proxy tourneys that draw small crowds....money can't be the issue there.  Support is more likely the main issue.  I doubt giving people power cards alone will spark a regrowth of Vintage.  However, if price is really the barrier, then I see nothing sanctioned, expiration-dated proxies can't accomplish that reprints can without the drawback to Unlimited owners.

Why is it WoTC's responsibility to maintain the value of your cards? Since when was this an obligation of thiers?

I would pay current prices for unlimited power over paying for Foil reprints. I want the real thing, and reprints would nto change that. Woudl I buy the new ones first? sure I would for financial reasons. But i plan on buying (or winning) a full set of unlimited power somewhere down the road, and thaty would not change.

WotC is in the business of serving its customers. If its customers become unhappy, WotC goes out of business.

If Sol Ring were not in Revised, what would the Beta price be?  Much higher than it is now.

How can you say that with any kind of certainty at all?  Sol Ring is an uncommon restricted to 1 per deck in the game's least popular constructed format.  Casual appeal aside, demand for this card is quite low and there are no parallels to look at.  Similar cards like Regrowth, Demonic Tutor, and Mana Vault were reprinted in Revised as well.  There's really nothing empirical to back up your assertion.  Higher?  Maybe.  Much higher?  Certainly not. 

Because I understand the theory of supply and demand?  I don't have the exact print runs, but what I've found is:
Alpha - 2.6 million
Beta - 7.3 million
Unlimited - 40 million
Revised - 500 million

If the 500 million * prob(Sol Ring | Revised) Revised Sol Rings didn't exist, and there was no change to the demand curve for Sol Rings, A/B/U editions Sol Rings would be much more expensive.  The only thing that might affect Sol Ring's price in that scenario would be if it were banned in EDH/organized casual play, a ban which would be enacted due to its price.  Alternatively, if it didn't appear in Revised it may be much more of a collector's item, and BB Sol Rings may be in much higher demand among collectors than they are now.

I think it's really dangerous to say 'casual appeal aside' for what may be the best and most sought after casual card of all.  This isn't Sneak Attack we're talking about, it's Sol Ring!  It's misleading and wrong to say that 'maybe' the price would be higher if there were 1/10th as many Sol Rings out there as there are now.

Those numbers have to be horribly off. With 7 million Beta Lotuses around they would sell for like $2 each. I'm pretty sure it is closer to 10,000-30,000. Not to mention 500 million of each Revised Dual land wtf?

the numbers are accurate, but for total print run.
alpha rares=1100
beta rares=3000
unlimited rares=25000
revised=350-400k

If these numbers are accurate then the total number of players who could play 4X Underground Sea in Legacy would be (maximum):

107,275

That seems like a lot of players with the ability to play Legacy with 4X of a card that is very important for deckbuilding. I mean, some of those copies are lost on collectors and casual players, but surely the number of Seas floating around is enough to serve major Legacy tournaments.

For instance, lets look at the recent Grand-Prix Madrid. The attendance was in excess of 2,200 players. If each of those players chose to play a deck requiring 4X Underground Sea that would be 8,800 Underground Seas floating around at 1 tournament. Now this isn't a huge problem for card availability until the total number competitive Legacy Players starts approaching 50,000-100,000 worldwide. Once numbers start getting up to that level then perhaps we should start worrying. Are they? Questions? Comments? Problems with my math?

-Storm

You are right. Like I said in Steve's thread, don't try to fix what ain't broken.

[Troy_Costisick]

For those of you talking about price drops, how in the world would my proposal- if implemented- cause that?  Really.

[DubDub]

For those of you talking about price drops, how in the world would my proposal- if implemented- cause that?  Really.

I think the point is, your proposal to hand out two sets of power per year won't make a difference in price because it won't make a real difference in supply.  Not all of the power your plan would introduce is guaranteed to end up in the hands of players (even though it may initially be given to them), and even if it did, most people are looking for a plan that would allow Vintage to grow faster than two new players a year.  So what's the point?

Price changes will accompany any plan that significantly affects the supply of power, and those plans merit discussion.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I do like Troy's idea of adding a few new real sets into circulation, but as noted, it doesn't do anything to quickly grow the format.  I think his idea should be implemented in tandem with a second strategy.

Price changes will accompany any plan that significantly affects the supply of power, and those plans merit discussion.

This is not necessarily true unless you are only talking about "real" power that is always legal.  A well-thought proxy system would create a ton of bonuses for players, Vintage, noobs, and WotC alike with no negative impact on power prices.

[DubDub]

Price changes will accompany any plan that significantly affects the supply of power, and those plans merit discussion.

This is not necessarily true unless you are only talking about "real" power that is always legal.  A well-thought proxy system would create a ton of bonuses for players, Vintage, noobs, and WotC alike with no negative impact on power prices.

Even rotating proxy/reprints would have an effect on existing power, as it represents the additional supply of a substitute.  You're right that the ephemeral nature of proxy/reprints would make them worse substitutes for true 'Eternal' power, but they would still be substitutes.

The key to increasing participation in Vintage is shifting the demand for Vintage.  Actions that improve Vintage's attractiveness as a format are what will improve existing player retention, and new player acquisition.  One can see that supply issues are not the problem by looking at the US's existing proxy system.  Additional format support from WOTC, and creating a more 'entertaining' cardpool (primarily the DCI's job) are far safer (and reversible) ways to stimulate Vintage.

[rilegard]

I would like to offer some thoughts on the subject (will post it on the other thread too):

First and foremost, I don't own P9 but "P8" (unlimited version). Just need a mox pearl to complete the power. I acquired most of the pieces last year, so I didn't have them ten years ago. Let's say that I purchased P8 once I could afford it.

It is true that years ago (1997) I bought a mox ruby, but had to sell it some months later because it seemed that T1 was going to disappear. Like me other players sold their staples too.

If Vintage still exists is obviously thanks to the players and tournament organizers, cause during a long time no one else cared about it. Of course someone could argue that WOTC always have in mind T1 players when designing a new set, but for sure that vintage players never got the support they really deserved.

Players advocating for reprinting have to understand that not everyone like this idea. What I try to say is that WOTC should try to minimize insatisfaction when dealing with this matter.

The proposal suggested by TheWhiteDragon, for example, could be a good starting point.

As a classical rule for enterprises, keeping a client is normally cheaper than getting a new one.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I don't know about other people but if they released 100,000 of each piece of P9 and for some reason the price of Unlimited power dropped to like $100 with the reprints being foil+new border for $25 I would buy Unlimited. Then again I'm probably in the minority of players that would rather play with Ice Age Brainstorms>Foil Masques Brainstorms. Pimp is subjective who knows, maybe since black bordered P9 will become so common Unlimited will become the new Beta. People randomly spitting out what they think will happen to prices with no evidence does nothing to help anybody.

Until there is solid data from other expensive cards getting reprinted can we please stop talking about potential price fluctuations? This debate is so cyclic you're making Astral Slide jealous...

[Killane]

I don't know about other people but if they released 100,000 of each piece of P9 and for some reason the price of Unlimited power dropped to like $100 with the reprints being foil+new border for $25 I would buy Unlimited. Then again I'm probably in the minority of players that would rather play with Ice Age Brainstorms>Foil Masques Brainstorms. Pimp is subjective who knows, maybe since black bordered P9 will become so common Unlimited will become the new Beta. People randomly spitting out what they think will happen to prices with no evidence does nothing to help anybody.

Until there is solid data from other expensive cards getting reprinted can we please stop talking about potential price fluctuations? This debate is so cyclic you're making Astral Slide jealous...

I agree on the buying unlimited over Foil Reprints.

I disagree on your price point as unrealistically low.

There is evidence- a solid knowledge of economics and an understanding of what the market drivers for magic card values are.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The only solid evidence we have comes from Berserk.  It's fall in value represents a best-case scenario for prices: its value is in both cases driven by collectibility, not playability, and a true collector wants a copy of each version.

The worst case scenario would be a card like Tarmogoyf: driven almost entirely by playability.  If it was a RoE common, we all know its value would fall to match something like M10 Lightning Bolt.

It's unclear what would happen to the price of Unlimited power since the collectibility doesn't change, but players can obtain cheaper(?) copies via a reprint.

[yukizora]

But if wizards offered to trade Unlimited P9 for like 20 of the new ones, so that players that have P9 can keep the value of these, but it would make more P9 available.
Of course that would make Unlimited P9 also a bit more rarer, which could be fixed by wizards re-releasing it slowly (Not to crash the prices) in a certain way after they stopped exchanging it for new ones. I don't have many other ideas other than simply reprinting it. I'm not very good in economy but I think that might be an alternate solution

[Killane]

But if wizards offered to trade Unlimited P9 for like 20 of the new ones, so that players that have P9 can keep the value of these, but it would make more P9 available.
Of course that would make Unlimited P9 also a bit more rarer, which could be fixed by wizards re-releasing it slowly (Not to crash the prices) in a certain way after they stopped exchanging it for new ones. I don't have many other ideas other than simply reprinting it. I'm not very good in economy but I think that might be an alternate solution

This kind of stock-split option is by far the best way to protect players and the format as a whole.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It also has the strange effect of raising the value of trash-condition unlimited power.  Ie. Everything below "mint " suddenly is worth 20 reprints.

[Killane]

It also has the strange effect of raising the value of trash-condition unlimited power.  Ie. Everything below "mint " suddenly is worth 20 reprints.

I think 20 reprints is way, way overboard. 

The original stuff should convert to new on a price-point basis of some kind. They should sell the reprints direct to consumer through their website, sidestepping dealer mark-ups, fixed price with mail-in trade option for existing power, and then sell the originals back to dealers.

[BetaFoil86]

I thought that I should get my 2 cents in as well. I would be against reprints if the reprints were either foil or black bordered. I think the best way to maintain old card value is to have the new reprints to not be as ascetically pleasing thereby making people want to obtain the originals. There are many people that wish to have only black bordered or foil cards in their deck. These are the primary people driving the price of things like Beta duals. With only white bordered reprints you would have an increasing number of these people and possibly even drive price up.

[TheShop]

At "The Shop"

Your argument seems to echo what many already said in that Alpha/Beta will not suffer.  You also seem to realize that Unlimited/Revised would have a substantial amount to lose.  Also, you state that the "collectors" are the one shelling out the cash.  I am first and foremost a player.  I don't value the cards as a collection, but do see them as something I spent a buttload of cash on with a reasonable expectance that the prices wouldn't fall out at the bottom overnight (as the RL and 15 years of the game would suggest).  It seems that while you acknowledge the "rookie" versions of the cards won't suffer tremendously, you are aware, and apparently okay with, unlimited crashing in price to near the level of reprints.  I would only logically assume you don't have your complete set of staples in all white-border as I do.  I understand that many want new sets of real power out and about and aren't on the proxy bandwagon...but, given my proposed idea on the sanctioned proxies, or any suitable substitute, wouldn't it seem better to find a solution that would help all and hurt none rather than totally screwing a guy who has the cheapest collection of all the staples like myself?  As there are far more white bordered printings, I am certain there are many people like me that have the cheapest version of the power/duals/etc., and not the exorbatant cash needed to pimp out their decks.  Why do you seem okay with people in this boat just losing their money because they didn't pay the extra for BB?  Is a few thousand dollars not good enough?  Must I spend 10K to ensure the value of my cards from not plummeting to $300 because people that have neither edition want cheap reprints?  How can you be cool with white-border losing substantial value so long as the pimp cards stay fine, when so many more of people's power IS white-bordered due to available quantity?

I sold my power last year, and am in the process of picking it all back up again (cardboard crack).  I am a player first and foremost, even if it is just with friends.  I want the most beat set that doesn't mess up sleeves and can be played (initially).  You will never believe this, but when I finally picked up my pieces, I still wanted the cards to become widely available.  I live in an area where no one plays because of the same lame excuse....without fail this is what always happens:

1)  New Type 1 Next Weekend.
2)  No one that really plays Type 1 knows about it.
3)  Weeks go by and Extended or Type 2 decks rock face.
4)  Type 1 players find out.
5)  They go and stomp face with the real thing (because completely or partially powered beats type 2)
6)  End of tournament because type 2 players can't afford it and wont pay entry fee to get face-punted.

This is the #1 problem with Vintage as a format- the investment required.  I personally want to play.  If I still had everything today (just like when I did still have my stuff), I would still say make it possible for this format to be played on a regular basis.  I would rather have what I do own lose value to create new players, than lose my value to a random restriction from the DCI.  I also believe that a massive influx of players into the format will do more for the value of your cards in the long run than allowing the format to become increasingly stagnant due to an increasing barrier to entry over time.

[TheWhiteDragon]

This is the #1 problem with Vintage as a format- the investment required.

I disagree.  Investment is definitely one barrier, but probably not the biggest.  I know a lot of people that can afford power that don't play Vintage.  As I mentioned in one of my earliest posts, it is because they can't see the reason in investing in a format that has bi-monthly tourneys at local shops with no big prize support.  When you play T2, you have a weekly FNM, weekend tourney, sanctioned Pro Tour events, drafts, etc., etc.  With Vintage, you are lucky if you can convince a shop to host a tourney and invest the money in a mox as prize every other month or so (best I managed was 3 times a year, putting up a mox myself once).  I think if T2 gets multiple tournaments a week locally, plus tons of Pro tours, sanctioned events, $5000 weekends, and other ridiculously well-supported tournaments, why would anyone play Vintage except those that started with the format way back when and love it?  Some people got into it by being passed a bunch of old cards...some have friends that got them into it...but the majority of everyday players coming in to Magic with each new set have really no incentive to play Vintage even if they COULD afford all the cards.  The current proxy system is evidence of this.  In my local events that I organized, it was 10 proxy + 1 for each additional dollar, $20 entry, and a mox as prize each time.  15-20 showed up.  Even Type 2 and Legacy players were able to make a fully powered Tezz, Stax, or Oath deck and play with so many proxies available.  Yet it was hard to get them to play.  Only the 1 in 15 shot at a mox enticed those that did play.  9-10 Vintage players traveled as far as 3 hours to make the tourney.

Bottom line is, nobody cared to play in a poorly supported event when they could just enter into a Legacy tourney and get great prizes for 1st -8th or draft for $15 and be guaranteed a 40 card deck with some new cards, etc.  If I were just starting in magic myself, I would want to play often and get prizes for playing and be on the same playing field as many who started around that time...which T2 offers.  Vintage is a highly skilled format that requires players to know a deck's ins and outs for YEARS with subtle variations at times.  T2 rotates seasonally.  Most importantly though, again, T2 and Legacy alike are getting sick support while Vintage requires the PLAYERS to put up prizes to get a tourney going.  I don't know for sure, but I doubt that Drew Brees and Reggie Bush had to fund this year's Vince Lombardi Trophy.

[InfectedMushroom]

The one problem with the "send in" idea, which has been mentioned, is what to do in the case a player sends in a card he or she did not know was fake? Would WoTC say "too bad" and keep it and destroy it?

[yukizora]

The one problem with the "send in" idea, which has been mentioned, is what to do in the case a player sends in a card he or she did not know was fake? Would WoTC say "too bad" and keep it and destroy it?

That's a good point, but (as certainly some others) I bought my P9 from reliable dealers, they all passed the ink pattern, black light and light test. If you're not sure your P9 is true, then you could be in trouble at anytime.

[Chaos Lord 21]

 THANK YOU WIZARDS!      Thank you for the candid and forthright clarification of the Reserved Lost policy, and for making the honorable and business-savvy decision to adhere to the promise made. This reinforces the confidence that players, consumers, and investors have in your amazing brand and patent that you have earned through many years of integrity. And thank you for not caving to the hysteria of reprinting pleas by the have-nots; that would have been a short-term cash-grab but would've irrepairably damaged the company and brand's credibility. Magic always has been and always will be a Collectible Card Game.

[InfectedMushroom]

Oh I've tested all mine, and got it from good dealers as well. But we all know it would happen to some poor guy...

[TheShop]

@WhiteDragon-

ok, so more than one problem exists.   But you can't tell me the main reason a 14-25 year old magic player(majority of players) doesn't play type 1 is because they are sitting on several thousand dollars they would rather collect interest on at the bank instead...skill is not he real issue, many may be unskilled, but that doesn't stop them from being poor type 2 and draft players.  I also wish we had more prize support, but this can be effected by the supply of staples as well:  more people with staples means more people willing to show up...means more for shops an more support.   I think the first thing that would come to mind if I was a newer player and pulled 2 moxes and some duals ou of a box would be "Now I can play Vintage too!!!"

Also, I feel like your  point changes the subject from reprints and price fluxuation thereafter.

[o uncola o]

Even if the price does drop, the drop would be so small for Alpha and Beta power that only those holding Unlimited power would be greatly influenced (because the new substitute would only substitute for the reprint...not the collectors item-the black border).  A new template copy of Power that is unplayable in all formats except the most niche format in existence would not change the value of the original.  It would not create more copies of the original.  The value added for playability is low.  Beta Power is iconic.  Power is a collector's item.  Alpha power may as well be a comic book in terms of its game-play abilities and the value is still greater than gold per oz.   That is why the price is inelastic.  The people who want a collector's piece of power will still pay high dollar for the limited copies regardless of the fact that a new $10 copy (that I just created for argument) exists.

You can find a beat version of sol ring, or a washing machine lotus for a fraction of the value of the nicer ones.  The fact that it still taps for mana does not matter to the majority of collectors (who are the people shelling out the cash).

The reason why your statement was a gross misinterpretation of supply and demand is because it is an oversimplification.

I personally believe that the curve on lowering the price of the originals by printing additional copies is drastically tapering off.  If anything, copies would raise the interest in the format, which would cause the play value to rise (possibly offsetting any loss incurred).  Also, if the cards were printed in a way that effected standard or extended, the market for the originals would grow...demand would shift, and the older copies would rise in value.

Finally:  How much would the Alpha & Beta copies be worth if no Unlimited & Revised copies existed?  More.  Obviously.  But since these reprints already exist, and because of the other factors I have discussed, a new printing of less desirable copies would not have the dramatic effect on Alpha and Beta copies that many would have us believe.

Oddly enough, during the Mirrodin period (when we saw some of the highest inflation in high-dollar card prices since the game's inception)- proxies were rampant in most Vintage tournaments...these are also substitutes.

So, in your opinion, an "oversimplification" is a "gross misinterpretation"?  Even though all of the underlying premises are, by your admission, true.  I also note that you support your belief by unsubstantiated beliefs that reprinting would raise interest in eternal formats? 

I assume that you are aware that reprinting some of the staples may or may not increase interest in vintage.  Regardless, the amount of increase is unknown. 

I did not state that reprinting some of the staples would make the bottom drop out of vintage cards, just that it would reduce their values.  Which, unless all of the most basic tenants of the law of supply and demand are incorrect, it would. 

[TheShop]

As median originally posted- there are more beta than alpha copies, yet beta holds higher value despite being a reprint.  Something other than "basic supply and demand" is driving the price.   It is obviously more complicated than price simply being a function of supply (which is what you really seem to have meant because you will not consent to any demand change large enough to be noteworthy).  It must be more complicated than your initial statement to have drawn this much relevant discussion over the years.

[DubDub]

As median originally posted- there are more beta than alpha copies, yet beta holds higher value despite being a reprint.  Something other than "basic supply and demand" is driving the price.   It is obviously more complicated than price simply being a function of supply (which is what you really seem to have meant because you will not consent to any demand change large enough to be noteworthy).  It must be more complicated than your initial statement to have drawn this much relevant discussion over the years.

Alpha cards' corners are different from the corners of all other cards (well, those with rounded corners, so not including CE/IE).  The difference used to be the source of a stigmatization of Alpha.  It's perfectly reasonable for Alpha to be treated as an inferior good to Beta, which is what we see in the prices.