[Free Article]Fuel to the Fire: My Thoughts on the P9 & the Reserve List

[Troy_Costisick]

I talk briefly about one possible solution to reprinting the high end cards that are on the Reserve List (and a few that aren't): http://mtgvintage.blogspot.com/2010/03/reserve-list.html 

These are the cards least likely to see reprint any time soon, but they are the ones most talked about in the forums across the Internet.  I don't think Ben and Steve made this suggestion exactly, though Ben touched on something very similar.  Hopefully, we'll see WotC take one of the many suggestions offered in the near future.  Not holding my breath, just holding on to hope

Peace,

-Troy

[TheShop]

The irrationality of that aside, the real question these people are asking is, “I had to sacrifice to get these really rare cards, shouldn’t other people have to sacrifice too?"


Wow.  I don't feel like the majority of players owning the cards want to monetarily punish everyone else- the evidence of that is the horde of people clamoring to keep proxies alive and loaning their cards to get people into the format.  The real question really is:  "Will some whining  type 2 player get the cards reprinted and devalue the thousands of dollars I hold the delusion of making on exiting the game?". I liked the article, but the value issue for the current owners ( including stores) outweighs any monetary initiation into vintage theory- Steve did a better job of addressing that problem...getting the majority of Wotc staff and current owners to believe that values will not drop is the most intergral part of eventually getting a reprint.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think this is a fair solution, but not a good one. I think that a few sets a year will help, but only with a few players a year. Adding 2-3 sets of power into circulation won't generate 200+ new Vintage players at the same rate. Also, a mass printing of power WOULD allow for swaths of new Vintage players, at the same time crippling prices of owned power.

I still contend that expiration-dated proxies at a nominal fee and large print run (maybe even a bonus rare into each new booster pack) would generate money for WotC, cost new players very little (and nothing really if it just replaced a common/foil/uncommon in random packs of new sets), generate a ton of people now able to play Vintage, interest players who had no interest in Vintage until they cracked a pack of M2011 to see a foily black lotus proxy behind their rare card, and do nothing to harm the value of cards for collectors, shops, and players who spent money on the cards.

[median]

I don't understand the concept of "more cards=lower values" beta is worth more than alpha, theres twice as much beta as alpha. New power will probably be worth more and drive prices of the old stuff up. Great read, I should follow your blog more closely.

[o uncola o]

I don't understand the concept of "more cards=lower values" beta is worth more than alpha, theres twice as much beta as alpha. New power will probably be worth more and drive prices of the old stuff up. Great read, I should follow your blog more closely.

Disagree.  Basic supply and demand.  More cards would undoubtedly drive prices down.  No two ways about it.  It may be offset to some small degree by increased interest in vintage, but I think that is doubtful at best.  Take "Sol Ring" as an example.  Card sees lots of play.  If it was Alpha, Beta, Unlimited only, the card would be worth quite a bit.  Look at it's value.  Because of all of the re-prints, it is not too expensive.   Beta is like $75 and unlimted is $15-20.    Just my $.02

[Troy_Costisick]

The irrationality of that aside, the real question these people are asking is, “I had to sacrifice to get these really rare cards, shouldn’t other people have to sacrifice too?"

Wow.  I don't feel like the majority of players owning the cards want to monetarily punish everyone else- the evidence of that is the horde of people clamoring to keep proxies alive and loaning their cards to get people into the format.

I don't believe it either.  I was specifically talking about the very small subset of people claiming that their retirement savings will be trashed or threatening WotC with laughable lawsuits.  I don't think that the monetary value of the A/B/U/R cards I mentioned in the article will drop significantly with the implementation of the propsals I made.  Honestly, I'll be happy if the prices just stabalize where they are now.  I don't think they will- not after the successful tournaments in Madrid and Indianapolis this year.

I think this is a fair solution, but not a good one. I think that a few sets a year will help, but only with a few players a year. Adding 2-3 sets of power into circulation won't generate 200+ new Vintage players at the same rate. Also, a mass printing of power WOULD allow for swaths of new Vintage players, at the same time crippling prices of owned power.

You make a fair point. Adding 1-2 sets of Power to the market each year won't allow for a significant increase in the number of sets available for new players to purchase.  However, what it would accomplish is this:

1) Get new reprints out almost immediately.  This could be implemented this year if they wanted.

2) Give WotC more time to come up with a sound method to introduce those cards I listed in larger runs in a non-catastrophic way while still making some progress in increasing the supply.

3) Test the waters to see what player reaction to this sort of reprint style might be.

4) Accustom players to the idea of reprinting more valuable cards on the Reserve List without the hyperventilating reaction a larger run would almost certainly cause and that they almost certainly want to avoid.

5) Increase tournament attendance.  Everybody wins from that. 

I don't understand the concept of "more cards=lower values" beta is worth more than alpha, theres twice as much beta as alpha. New power will probably be worth more and drive prices of the old stuff up. Great read, I should follow your blog more closely.

Take "Sol Ring" as an example.  Card sees lots of play.  If it was Alpha, Beta, Unlimited only, the card would be worth quite a bit.  Look at it's value.  Because of all of the re-prints, it is not too expensive.   Beta is like $75 and unlimted is $15-20.    Just my $.02

Yeah, let's take Sol Ring as an example.  It was reprinted as a Judge Foil eleven years after its last printing.  How much effect on the A/B/U/R prices do you think that extra foil promotion had?

Peace,

-Troy

[RecklessEmbermage]

I think your idea of giving out reprints as prizes is a good one.

But why on earth should it only be done twice a year? There are plenty of non-proxy high level vintage tournaments out there (most outside the US, but this kind of scheme would likely create interest for non-proxy tournaments in the US too, further pushing the prices of staples) that WotC could choose to embrace. They could simply start asking TO's till they get as many affirmative answers they need to supply the desired number of cards each year.

[Troy_Costisick]

But why on earth should it only be done twice a year? There are plenty of non-proxy high level vintage tournaments out there (most outside the US, but this kind of scheme would likely create interest for non-proxy tournaments in the US too, further pushing the prices of staples) that WotC could choose to embrace.

Hey, I'd be all for it!  But those tournaments aren't run by WotC.  You don't expect to get GP foils at the Bazaar of Moxen, do you?  Other than FNM and Gateway, does WotC give out promotional cards four large scale tournaments they aren't running?  I don't know.  It's an honest question.

[DubDub]

I don't understand the concept of "more cards=lower values" beta is worth more than alpha, theres twice as much beta as alpha.

Really?  There's more Unlimited power than Beta power so it should be worth more than Beta right...?

Alpha has different corners from all other printings, causing it to be slightly less sought after than Beta.

New power will probably be worth more and drive prices of the old stuff up.

This is a really dangerous statement, because it is unqualified.
New power may be valuable if there's demand for it (if it's BB and/or foil).
It will drive prices of the old stuff up only if it acts like an inferior good.  If it can be substituted like a normal good for the 'old stuff' then it will drive the price of 'old stuff' down.  It may be the case that new power competes with Unlimited as a normal good, but with A/B as an inferior good.

[median]

I don't understand the concept of "more cards=lower values" beta is worth more than alpha, theres twice as much beta as alpha.

Really?  There's more Unlimited power than Beta power so it should be worth more than Beta right...?

Alpha has different corners from all other printings, causing it to be slightly less sought after than Beta.

New power will probably be worth more and drive prices of the old stuff up.

This is a really dangerous statement, because it is unqualified.
New power may be valuable if there's demand for it (if it's BB and/or foil).
It will drive prices of the old stuff up only if it acts like an inferior good.  If it can be substituted like a normal good for the 'old stuff' then it will drive the price of 'old stuff' down.  It may be the case that new power competes with Unlimited as a normal good, but with A/B as an inferior good.

I was bit off the cuff there. My point is people like things for weird reasons. When alpha became tournament legal things like black border, legality, ephemera rates, language, rarity, playability (etc)all factored in. But beta was still worth more. The next closest things we can look at are things like FTV bererk, which had no real effect on prices, the judge foil sol ring regrowth demonic (not hurting prices). From past data, reprints look like they will do only positives for price.

[silvernail]

To be fair, there have no been reprints of actually highly sought after cards. Demonic's are easy to get, Berserk's aren't used with any regularity and regrowth can be substituted with many variants by a budget player if they don't have a regrowth. We haven't had reprints of duals, forces, drains,wastelands,bazaar,workshops etc.

[Troy_Costisick]

To be fair, there have no been reprints of actually highly sought after cards. Demonic's are easy to get, Berserk's aren't used with any regularity and regrowth can be substituted with many variants by a budget player if they don't have a regrowth. We haven't had reprints of duals, forces, drains,wastelands,bazaar,workshops etc.

Wasteland was reprinted as a player reward.  Polluted Delta was a judge's foil.  

EDIT: You could even consider Italian Legends as a reprinting for that entire set.  When Italian Legends came out there wasn't the outcry that Chronicles caused.  Interesting, isn't it?  Not to mention the foreign black border dual lands.  IMO, some of these reprintings have already happened.  The Reserve List is a farce.

[zeus-online]

I think reprints should be done as awards (IE Low amount) or as a white bordered set as to not be more worth then existing copies. same price would be fine...more is not really that good for us who owns the cards already. That would be a kick in the groin.

[DubDub]

I don't understand the concept of "more cards=lower values" beta is worth more than alpha, theres twice as much beta as alpha.

Really?  There's more Unlimited power than Beta power so it should be worth more than Beta right...?

Alpha has different corners from all other printings, causing it to be slightly less sought after than Beta.

New power will probably be worth more and drive prices of the old stuff up.

This is a really dangerous statement, because it is unqualified.
New power may be valuable if there's demand for it (if it's BB and/or foil).
It will drive prices of the old stuff up only if it acts like an inferior good.  If it can be substituted like a normal good for the 'old stuff' then it will drive the price of 'old stuff' down.  It may be the case that new power competes with Unlimited as a normal good, but with A/B as an inferior good.

I was bit off the cuff there. My point is people like things for weird reasons. When alpha became tournament legal things like black border, legality, ephemera rates, language, rarity, playability (etc)all factored in. But beta was still worth more. The next closest things we can look at are things like FTV bererk, which had no real effect on prices, the judge foil sol ring regrowth demonic (not hurting prices). From past data, reprints look like they will do only positives for price.

Apathy house disagrees about the effect FTV:E had on Berserk:
http://www.apathyhouse.com/pricelist/pricelist.php?exact=1&card=Berserk

It's small, but clearly noticeable.  Sol Ring, Regrowth, and Demonic were in Revised, and a massively larger number of copies are in existence than of Power.  One also only needs one* of each, whereas one needs four of each Dual.  Also, while not damaging the price of earlier printings of those cards, which I won't contest because it's largely irrelevant, let's look at prices (SCG, because they own TMD, and because it's convenient, prices for illustration only):
Regrowth
Revised - 1.49
Judge Foil - 9.99 (sold out)

Demonic Tutor
Revised - 7.99 (sold out)
Divine vs Demonic (BB) - 7.99 (sold out)
Judge Foil - 39.99

Sol Ring
Revised - 11.99 (sold out)
Judge Foil - 49.99 (sold out)

I mean, if we take the price of Unlimited power at ~$300, the Judge foil given the above trend will be ~$1300.  How does that help anyone?


*Barring playing multiples between Vintage and EDH, I myself have three of each of Regrowth and Demonic, and five Sol Rings.

[TheShop]

I don't understand the concept of "more cards=lower values" beta is worth more than alpha, theres twice as much beta as alpha. New power will probably be worth more and drive prices of the old stuff up. Great read, I should follow your blog more closely.

Disagree.  Basic supply and demand.  More cards would undoubtedly drive prices down.  No two ways about it.  It may be offset to some small degree by increased interest in vintage, but I think that is doubtful at best.  Take "Sol Ring" as an example.  Card sees lots of play.  If it was Alpha, Beta, Unlimited only, the card would be worth quite a bit.  Look at it's value.  Because of all of the re-prints, it is not too expensive.   Beta is like $75 and unlimted is $15-20.    Just my $.02

This is a gross misinterpretation of the law of supply and demand: a reprint is not an equivalent of the original.  They are on a completely different demand curve.  Sure, it is a substitute, which would tend to bring down the price of the original- but only to the extent that the play function drives the price.  Does a PSA grade 9 lotus cost the same as an unlimited one?  Does the fact that an unlimited copy exists lower the value of that beta copy?   No.   For collectibles, the subsitutes makes less of a difference because the beta power curve is very inelastic (it's like crack rocks-it could be a million dollars and junkies would still purchase it) becuase an adequate substitute does not exist.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Not to bring up what is already stated (which I am), but why is everyone dismissing the idea of yearly, expiration-dated, pimp, foily, proxies placed randomly in new sets?  They would have no threat on current power prices, introduce massive quantities of the sets into play, create enormous accessibility to Vintage for the Standard player, and generate wads of cash for WotC.  It seems as if nobody is even discussing the merits of this option and just dismissing it in favor of eternal reprints.  Instead of banging our heads to find out how to make reprints work, shouldn't we look at this highly good and valid option of yearly proxies?  I can only see tremendous good from it and no cons as far as current prices.  After all, I'd rent a car if I needed one just for the day, but would certaintly buy one rather than rent for years if I knew I'd continue to drive it.

[CorwinB]

This is a gross misinterpretation of the law of supply and demand: a reprint is not an equivalent of the original.  They are on a completely different demand curve.  Sure, it is a substitute, which would tend to bring down the price of the original- but only to the extent that the play function drives the price.  Does a PSA grade 9 lotus cost the same as an unlimited one?  Does the fact that an unlimited copy exists lower the value of that beta copy?   No.   For collectibles, the subsitutes makes less of a difference because the beta power curve is very inelastic (it's like crack rocks-it could be a million dollars and junkies would still purchase it) becuase an adequate substitute does not exist.

It may very well be that Unlimited Power and Revised Dual Lands are already considered substitutes.

In the other thread, I looked at the Black Lotus Project for a couple of cards :
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40054.msg553646#msg553646
Basically, if a staple card is available only in ABU (Power), then the U price is high, and the margin between AB and U is not very large (50% for Lotus). But once a card becomes available in larger amount, the difference between U and AB becomes absolutely huge.

The question remains open about wether new prints (foils, new art ?, new frame) would make Unlimited Power and Revised Duals actual "collectors items", but the available data suggests "No". If Duals and Power are reprinted, I really don't see WotC making them White Bordered (which would "help" FBB Duals as far as pimp factor goes, but would do nothing for Unlimited Power), as they generally don't make white-bordered stuff anymore.

If WotC goes on with trashing the RL, I really hope that whatever they put in place for reprints is made with the players in mind, and not as a freebie for the large dealers. Giving out a small amount of new Power as prizes for officially sanctionned Vintage Tournaments (perhaps including special prices for best unpowered decks, why not), dual lands as Player Rewards or Judge Foils is something I could get behind, and would benefit players greatly. FtV:Power or FtV:Duals would only be a gift to large-scale dealers who would put insane markups on those. I'm on the fence on including staples in Duel Decks and the like (I love Duel Decks, and would hate to see them go to $60 because of a foil Underground Sea or Taiga, as this would price them out of their intented audience), but don't mind the foil loophole being used for things like the Sliver Queen or the Phyrexian Negator.

[i_set_fire]

Not to bring up what is already stated (which I am), but why is everyone dismissing the idea of yearly, expiration-dated, pimp, foily, proxies placed randomly in new sets?  They would have no threat on current power prices, introduce massive quantities of the sets into play, create enormous accessibility to Vintage for the Standard player, and generate wads of cash for WotC.  It seems as if nobody is even discussing the merits of this option and just dismissing it in favor of eternal reprints.  Instead of banging our heads to find out how to make reprints work, shouldn't we look at this highly good and valid option of yearly proxies?  I can only see tremendous good from it and no cons as far as current prices.  After all, I'd rent a car if I needed one just for the day, but would certaintly buy one rather than rent for years if I knew I'd continue to drive it.

i think this is a great option as well since almost everyone wins in this situation.  however, it will be very confusing (and possibly aggravating) for the kid who opens a lotus and then realizes he cant even play with it because it is not standard legal.  of course, he can just trade it away, but he will likely get ripped off thinking the card is worthless since he cant play it in standard.  so instead of wasting the kids rare slot, replacing a token with a p9 could work and when the set rotates out, so do those versions of p9.  core sets rotate out in july so there should be time for people to reassemble power before gencon at a fair price.  if the reprints are tokens, real power should maintain value since tokens are lame and not a permanent card.

i think the other idea in the article of awarding power to top 12-16 at worlds is bad.  two sets of power a year going to the hands of people who already own power (otherwise they wouldnt have been able to compete in the tourny) is pointless.  i wouldnt be surprised if at least two sets of counterfeits are introduced every day so two a year wont make any difference.  besides, these two prize sets of power will be ultra rare and likely more valuable than at least unlimited if not BB as well.  and that's only if the winners actually sell their prizes.  obviously they can sell the piece that their prize replaced, but again what difference is one more piece of power? 

[DubDub]

I don't understand the concept of "more cards=lower values" beta is worth more than alpha, theres twice as much beta as alpha. New power will probably be worth more and drive prices of the old stuff up. Great read, I should follow your blog more closely.

Disagree.  Basic supply and demand.  More cards would undoubtedly drive prices down.  No two ways about it.  It may be offset to some small degree by increased interest in vintage, but I think that is doubtful at best.  Take "Sol Ring" as an example.  Card sees lots of play.  If it was Alpha, Beta, Unlimited only, the card would be worth quite a bit.  Look at it's value.  Because of all of the re-prints, it is not too expensive.   Beta is like $75 and unlimted is $15-20.    Just my $.02

This is a gross misinterpretation of the law of supply and demand: a reprint is not an equivalent of the original.  They are on a completely different demand curve.  Sure, it is a substitute, which would tend to bring down the price of the original- but only to the extent that the play function drives the price.  Does a PSA grade 9 lotus cost the same as an unlimited one?  Does the fact that an unlimited copy exists lower the value of that beta copy?   No.   For collectibles, the subsitutes makes less of a difference because the beta power curve is very inelastic (it's like crack rocks-it could be a million dollars and junkies would still purchase it) becuase an adequate substitute does not exist.

Yes it does.  If Sol Ring were not in Revised, what would the Beta price be?  Much higher than it is now.

There actually *is* a test for this between the dual lands, since Volcanic Island was not printed in Alpha!

Card   Alpha   Beta   Unlimited   Revised   Beta/Revised Underground Sea   439.89   574.82   84.02   56.06   10.2536568 Tundra   272.95   265.84   47.1   40.05   6.637702871 Tropical Island   338.91   322.09   51.04   41.63   7.736968532 Plateau   126.75   141.98   37.28   24.89   5.704298915 Savannah   155.46   144.91   33.47   28.58   5.070328901 Badlands   186.87   140.16   33.06   26.85   5.220111732 Taiga   200.66   234.93   42   33.18   7.080470163 Scrubland   93.65   135.68   45.82   27.28   4.973607038 Bayou   122.24   182.42   47.74   31.92   5.714912281 Volcanic Island   N/A   392.52   39.41   32.48   12.08497537

Even among the Blue Duals Volcanic has the highest ratio of Beta price to Revised price, which is because Beta Volcanics are the only BB ones.

Additional printings of valuable cards will act as imperfect substitutes for the originals; they will still impact A/B/U/R prices.  The size of that impact will be due to the size of the reprint's print run, and how imperfect they are (BB, Foil etc).

Not to bring up what is already stated (which I am), but why is everyone dismissing the idea of yearly, expiration-dated, pimp, foily, proxies placed randomly in new sets?  They would have no threat on current power prices, introduce massive quantities of the sets into play, create enormous accessibility to Vintage for the Standard player, and generate wads of cash for WotC.  It seems as if nobody is even discussing the merits of this option and just dismissing it in favor of eternal reprints.  Instead of banging our heads to find out how to make reprints work, shouldn't we look at this highly good and valid option of yearly proxies?  I can only see tremendous good from it and no cons as far as current prices.  After all, I'd rent a car if I needed one just for the day, but would certaintly buy one rather than rent for years if I knew I'd continue to drive it.

It's not a bad idea, but it presents a number of logistical problems: TO's would have to police the legality of the proxies, the cards would be worthless once they 'rotated out', etc.

[The Wolf]

The best way to reprint stuff, and the way I think they are going to do it, is in the new WOW Raid style products they are making.  Cards like diamond will be available in the loot pack as a possible prize.  This way, they can slowly put new versions of cards into the market place, but control the number of them. 

They question is how much will these raid decks cost.  Well, they can just make the cards rare enough that people will not be buying them just for the possibility of getting a card.  They can keep adjusting the rarity as they see fit over time and get the cards down to where they want them.

I may be totally off base about this, but it seems like the new product was made for this. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

The proxy idea seems to me, the best option.  I saw a comment that it would suck if it replaced a rare.  I agree and never suggested this.  I think it should replace a common/uncommon/foil...even a token is fine.  Hell, even add it as a bonus 16th card to each pack.  The standard kid might not know what it is worth, but at the same point, he is getting it free in place of a $0.05  comon.  Also, as they are mass produced and only good for a year (or two if so decided) they will have a low value ($5-10 I suppose).   Also, if a kid opens a pack and knows his Baneslayer is worth money, he'd probably know other cards that have value.  Lodestone golem isn't great in standard, but due to being awesome in Vintage, it has value...and standard players know that.  If you don't know the value of a foily BB proxy black lotus, it is worth your 5 minutes to check ebay and look it up.  I don't know many players who open a pack and see a card they are unfamiliar with and immediately trade it away for 5 cent fodder.

You can even do alternating print runs (i.e. lotus, time vault, workshops, FoW one year, Duals, Moxen, Bazaars then next) and have them good for a couple years until the next printing.  Yes, judges will have to police the legality, but with new artwork on each printing, it should be no harder than checking a deck for sharpie.card.  The cards may even hold nominal value as collector's pieces for the artwork, etc. and would definitely be better in deck gauntlets over sharpied cards.  The important things to keep in mind here is that A) it will have little to no impact on current REAL printings B) It will massively introduce new sets of Vintage staples to those wanting to get in, and those who had no interest in Vintage at all C) It will entice people with no Vintage interest when their booster box gives them a complete set of proxy power.  D) It will give WotC even MORE money as Vintage players who just patrol ebay for a playset of the 3-4 vintage cards in each set will now have incentive to buy packs for shots at Vintage power proxies. E) If this printing of proxies is followed through each year and each proxy has a year or two lifespan, it would DEFINITELY help Vintage for the next 20, 30, 40 years.  f) WotC would have a LOT of incentive to sanction more Vintage tourneys and even an FNM for Vintage.

You could even do this IN TANDEM with giving out REAL sets of power a few times a year at the biggest sanctioned tourneys like Worlds, etc.  Then a few sets of real power are entered into circulation AND the everyman can get a chance to cheaply enter the format.

[Troy_Costisick]

I'm on the fence on including staples in Duel Decks and the like (I love Duel Decks, and would hate to see them go to $60 because of a foil Underground Sea or Taiga, as this would price them out of their intented audience), but don't mind the foil loophole being used for things like the Sliver Queen or the Phyrexian Negator.

The thing about Duel Decks is they are sold in big box stores like Wal-Mart and Amazon.  So dealers would have a real hard time snatching all of them up then raising the price.  If dual lands appeared in a Duel Deck, those products would certainly sell quickly, but they would be get-able at the MSRP.

If Sol Ring were not in Revised, what would the Beta price be?  Much higher than it is now.

How can you say that with any kind of certainty at all?  Sol Ring is an uncommon restricted to 1 per deck in the game's least popular constructed format.  Casual appeal aside, demand for this card is quite low and there are no parallels to look at.  Similar cards like Regrowth, Demonic Tutor, and Mana Vault were reprinted in Revised as well.  There's really nothing empirical to back up your assertion.  Higher?  Maybe.  Much higher?  Certainly not. 

The proxy idea seems to me, the best option.

This is a non-starter and not even worth talking about. 

[Killane]

The proxy idea seems to me, the best option.  I saw a comment that it would suck if it replaced a rare.  I agree and never suggested this.  I think it should replace a common/uncommon/foil...even a token is fine.  Hell, even add it as a bonus 16th card to each pack.  The standard kid might not know what it is worth, but at the same point, he is getting it free in place of a $0.05  comon.  Also, as they are mass produced and only good for a year (or two if so decided) they will have a low value ($5-10 I suppose).   Also, if a kid opens a pack and knows his Baneslayer is worth money, he'd probably know other cards that have value.  Lodestone golem isn't great in standard, but due to being awesome in Vintage, it has value...and standard players know that.  If you don't know the value of a foily BB proxy black lotus, it is worth your 5 minutes to check ebay and look it up.  I don't know many players who open a pack and see a card they are unfamiliar with and immediately trade it away for 5 cent fodder.

You can even do alternating print runs (i.e. lotus, time vault, workshops, FoW one year, Duals, Moxen, Bazaars then next) and have them good for a couple years until the next printing.  Yes, judges will have to police the legality, but with new artwork on each printing, it should be no harder than checking a deck for sharpie.card.  The cards may even hold nominal value as collector's pieces for the artwork, etc. and would definitely be better in deck gauntlets over sharpied cards.  The important things to keep in mind here is that A) it will have little to no impact on current REAL printings B) It will massively introduce new sets of Vintage staples to those wanting to get in, and those who had no interest in Vintage at all C) It will entice people with no Vintage interest when their booster box gives them a complete set of proxy power.  D) It will give WotC even MORE money as Vintage players who just patrol ebay for a playset of the 3-4 vintage cards in each set will now have incentive to buy packs for shots at Vintage power proxies. E) If this printing of proxies is followed through each year and each proxy has a year or two lifespan, it would DEFINITELY help Vintage for the next 20, 30, 40 years.  f) WotC would have a LOT of incentive to sanction more Vintage tourneys and even an FNM for Vintage.

You could even do this IN TANDEM with giving out REAL sets of power a few times a year at the biggest sanctioned tourneys like Worlds, etc.  Then a few sets of real power are entered into circulation AND the everyman can get a chance to cheaply enter the format.

This is a decent idea. I think reprints are better, but for now this idea is pretty good. As to polciing legality, just include the release year in the foil (like the foil set imagines in pre-release foils). A lotus with a giant 2010 in foil over it is quite clear.

[TheWhiteDragon]

The problem with reprints is that it has to affect the price of current printings.  If it is run in such a small scale as to not affect the price of power, then it really does not accomplish its mission of lowering the price barrier.  If it DOES lower the price, it makes many without power happy at the same time taking everyones money away for the people that invested in a collectible that holds value.  Yes, it is a game, but it is a collectible item, and the two can not be divorced.  It appears to me that some people that don't own the power want to look at Magic as purely a hobby or game and take away the collectibility aspect.  It also appears that some of the same people who totally dismiss the proxy idea are not really interested in opening up Vintage to a new realm of players (which dated, expiring proxies certaintly accomplish), but instead are just interested in driving down the price of power (whether as a reprint or the original) so they can get their sets of Vintage staples for pennies on the dollar.
If we are just trying to get a set of real P9 into everybody's hands, then go with reprints.  If you want to maintain current values while still allowing any new players to enter the format cheaply, then use sanctioned, dated proxies.  And if you want a cheap set of Power for yourself at the sacrifice of those who already paid high prices, without regard to the Vintage format, reprint all the cards in every set and give them away for free.

[Killane]

The problem with reprints is that it has to affect the price of current printings.  If it is run in such a small scale as to not affect the price of power, then it really does not accomplish its mission of lowering the price barrier.  If it DOES lower the price, it makes many without power happy at the same time taking everyones money away for the people that invested in a collectible that holds value.  Yes, it is a game, but it is a collectible item, and the two can not be divorced.  It appears to me that some people that don't own the power want to look at Magic as purely a hobby or game and take away the collectibility aspect.  It also appears that some of the same people who totally dismiss the proxy idea are not really interested in opening up Vintage to a new realm of players (which dated, expiring proxies certaintly accomplish), but instead are just interested in driving down the price of power (whether as a reprint or the original) so they can get their sets of Vintage staples for pennies on the dollar.
If we are just trying to get a set of real P9 into everybody's hands, then go with reprints.  If you want to maintain current values while still allowing any new players to enter the format cheaply, then use sanctioned, dated proxies.  And if you want a cheap set of Power for yourself at the sacrifice of those who already paid high prices, without regard to the Vintage format, reprint all the cards in every set and give them away for free.

I've debated this to death in the other thread and don;t want to start here as well. The bolded part of your quote is the part I really take issue with though. Marske and Smennen have both chimed in favoring reprints, and both own full Beta power (and Alpha as well in Smennen's case). I kniw a number of people personally who own power who are in favor of reprints, and collectable economic theory does not support a downturn in value of said power due to reprints, just as an old Babe Ruth rookie card is not affected by a Xth anniversay reprint, regardless of print run. the old stuff is still just as rare.

[TheWhiteDragon]

As I contended before, it is not the Alpha/Beta value that will decrease, but Unlimited/Revised will more than likely plummet as they neither fit the mold of cheapest nor pimpest.  I do not understand what a reprint will accomplish that sanctioned proxies will not.  I could see the push for reprints when a sound proxy theory had not been established, but since a viable proxy option has now been mentioned, what benefit would reprints have that proxies would not, other than cheaply getting power into the hands of those without it currently?
Reprints/Proxies aside, I think all can agree that a greater amount of sanctioned tourneys will be the most effective way of driving Vintage growth.  But as far as making staples accessible, I think a proxy run that comes out every other year with a set of staples, distributed widely as an extra card in new set packs, would do everything a reprint would without adversely affecting real card prices.  If I am mistaken, please show me how.
As far as Xth anniversary edition not affecting Babe Ruth cards...I agree, it would not drop Rookie cards or cards printed in the year in which he played for particular teams, etc.  But Magic cards are different in that everything beyond Beta is just "another printing" of the card.  Unlimited duals vs Revised duals don't have nearly the margin that Unlimited vs beta do.  If the cards were all just printed again in sets from hereon out, then only the "rookie" versions (beta too as it has different corners) would hold value, and everything else would depreciate.  Much like 1st edition books have a high value, second editions, etc., only have value if they were limited runs or if it only ran in a few editions and stopped.  Books that are reprinted every year have a high value of first editions, and everything thereafter is relatively similar in value, which is much less than the first run.
I, as a person with all Unlimiteds/Revised staples stand to lose much more than people with pimp sets.  If Beta cards drop $20 each and Vintage grows, it is a win for them.  If Unlimited drops to $50 a card and Vintage grows, then i get more people to play with and lost thousands of dollars.  This also assumes that putting more cards into circulation would even help vintage.  There are many proxy tourneys that draw small crowds....money can't be the issue there.  Support is more likely the main issue.  I doubt giving people power cards alone will spark a regrowth of Vintage.  However, if price is really the barrier, then I see nothing sanctioned, expiration-dated proxies can't accomplish that reprints can without the drawback to Unlimited owners.

[Killane]

As I contended before, it is not the Alpha/Beta value that will decrease, but Unlimited/Revised will more than likely plummet as they neither fit the mold of cheapest nor pimpest.  I do not understand what a reprint will accomplish that sanctioned proxies will not.  I could see the push for reprints when a sound proxy theory had not been established, but since a viable proxy option has now been mentioned, what benefit would reprints have that proxies would not, other than cheaply getting power into the hands of those without it currently?
Reprints/Proxies aside, I think all can agree that a greater amount of sanctioned tourneys will be the most effective way of driving Vintage growth.  But as far as making staples accessible, I think a proxy run that comes out every other year with a set of staples, distributed widely as an extra card in new set packs, would do everything a reprint would without adversely affecting real card prices.  If I am mistaken, please show me how.
As far as Xth anniversary edition not affecting Babe Ruth cards...I agree, it would not drop Rookie cards or cards printed in the year in which he played for particular teams, etc.  But Magic cards are different in that everything beyond Beta is just "another printing" of the card.  Unlimited duals vs Revised duals don't have nearly the margin that Unlimited vs beta do.  If the cards were all just printed again in sets from hereon out, then only the "rookie" versions (beta too as it has different corners) would hold value, and everything else would depreciate.  Much like 1st edition books have a high value, second editions, etc., only have value if they were limited runs or if it only ran in a few editions and stopped.  Books that are reprinted every year have a high value of first editions, and everything thereafter is relatively similar in value, which is much less than the first run.
I, as a person with all Unlimiteds/Revised staples stand to lose much more than people with pimp sets.  If Beta cards drop $20 each and Vintage grows, it is a win for them.  If Unlimited drops to $50 a card and Vintage grows, then i get more people to play with and lost thousands of dollars.  This also assumes that putting more cards into circulation would even help vintage.  There are many proxy tourneys that draw small crowds....money can't be the issue there.  Support is more likely the main issue.  I doubt giving people power cards alone will spark a regrowth of Vintage.  However, if price is really the barrier, then I see nothing sanctioned, expiration-dated proxies can't accomplish that reprints can without the drawback to Unlimited owners.

Why is it WoTC's responsibility to maintain the value of your cards? Since when was this an obligation of thiers?

I would pay current prices for unlimited power over paying for Foil reprints. I want the real thing, and reprints would nto change that. Woudl I buy the new ones first? sure I would for financial reasons. But i plan on buying (or winning) a full set of unlimited power somewhere down the road, and thaty would not change.

[DubDub]

If Sol Ring were not in Revised, what would the Beta price be?  Much higher than it is now.

How can you say that with any kind of certainty at all?  Sol Ring is an uncommon restricted to 1 per deck in the game's least popular constructed format.  Casual appeal aside, demand for this card is quite low and there are no parallels to look at.  Similar cards like Regrowth, Demonic Tutor, and Mana Vault were reprinted in Revised as well.  There's really nothing empirical to back up your assertion.  Higher?  Maybe.  Much higher?  Certainly not. 

Because I understand the theory of supply and demand?  I don't have the exact print runs, but what I've found is:
Alpha - 2.6 million
Beta - 7.3 million
Unlimited - 40 million
Revised - 500 million

If the 500 million * prob(Sol Ring | Revised) Revised Sol Rings didn't exist, and there was no change to the demand curve for Sol Rings, A/B/U editions Sol Rings would be much more expensive.  The only thing that might affect Sol Ring's price in that scenario would be if it were banned in EDH/organized casual play, a ban which would be enacted due to its price.  Alternatively, if it didn't appear in Revised it may be much more of a collector's item, and BB Sol Rings may be in much higher demand among collectors than they are now.

I think it's really dangerous to say 'casual appeal aside' for what may be the best and most sought after casual card of all.  This isn't Sneak Attack we're talking about, it's Sol Ring!  It's misleading and wrong to say that 'maybe' the price would be higher if there were 1/10th as many Sol Rings out there as there are now.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

If Sol Ring were not in Revised, what would the Beta price be?  Much higher than it is now.

How can you say that with any kind of certainty at all?  Sol Ring is an uncommon restricted to 1 per deck in the game's least popular constructed format.  Casual appeal aside, demand for this card is quite low and there are no parallels to look at.  Similar cards like Regrowth, Demonic Tutor, and Mana Vault were reprinted in Revised as well.  There's really nothing empirical to back up your assertion.  Higher?  Maybe.  Much higher?  Certainly not. 

Because I understand the theory of supply and demand?  I don't have the exact print runs, but what I've found is:
Alpha - 2.6 million
Beta - 7.3 million
Unlimited - 40 million
Revised - 500 million

If the 500 million * prob(Sol Ring | Revised) Revised Sol Rings didn't exist, and there was no change to the demand curve for Sol Rings, A/B/U editions Sol Rings would be much more expensive.  The only thing that might affect Sol Ring's price in that scenario would be if it were banned in EDH/organized casual play, a ban which would be enacted due to its price.  Alternatively, if it didn't appear in Revised it may be much more of a collector's item, and BB Sol Rings may be in much higher demand among collectors than they are now.

I think it's really dangerous to say 'casual appeal aside' for what may be the best and most sought after casual card of all.  This isn't Sneak Attack we're talking about, it's Sol Ring!  It's misleading and wrong to say that 'maybe' the price would be higher if there were 1/10th as many Sol Rings out there as there are now.

Those numbers have to be horribly off. With 7 million Beta Lotuses around they would sell for like $2 each. I'm pretty sure it is closer to 10,000-30,000. Not to mention 500 million of each Revised Dual land wtf?

[i_set_fire]

If Sol Ring were not in Revised, what would the Beta price be?  Much higher than it is now.

How can you say that with any kind of certainty at all?  Sol Ring is an uncommon restricted to 1 per deck in the game's least popular constructed format.  Casual appeal aside, demand for this card is quite low and there are no parallels to look at.  Similar cards like Regrowth, Demonic Tutor, and Mana Vault were reprinted in Revised as well.  There's really nothing empirical to back up your assertion.  Higher?  Maybe.  Much higher?  Certainly not. 

Because I understand the theory of supply and demand?  I don't have the exact print runs, but what I've found is:
Alpha - 2.6 million
Beta - 7.3 million
Unlimited - 40 million
Revised - 500 million

If the 500 million * prob(Sol Ring | Revised) Revised Sol Rings didn't exist, and there was no change to the demand curve for Sol Rings, A/B/U editions Sol Rings would be much more expensive.  The only thing that might affect Sol Ring's price in that scenario would be if it were banned in EDH/organized casual play, a ban which would be enacted due to its price.  Alternatively, if it didn't appear in Revised it may be much more of a collector's item, and BB Sol Rings may be in much higher demand among collectors than they are now.

I think it's really dangerous to say 'casual appeal aside' for what may be the best and most sought after casual card of all.  This isn't Sneak Attack we're talking about, it's Sol Ring!  It's misleading and wrong to say that 'maybe' the price would be higher if there were 1/10th as many Sol Rings out there as there are now.

Those numbers have to be horribly off. With 7 million Beta Lotuses around they would sell for like $2 each. I'm pretty sure it is closer to 10,000-30,000. Not to mention 500 million of each Revised Dual land wtf?

the numbers are accurate, but for total print run.
alpha rares=1100
beta rares=3000
unlimited rares=25000
revised=350-400k