Single Card Discussion (Emrakul, The Aeons Torn)

[StarOrc]

Someone mentioned that Leyline+Edict will get rid of Emrakul.
That doesn't work. All of the Eldrazi have similar wording to DSC. They all have a replacement effect which shuffles them back into their owner's library. When 2 different replacement effect would effect 1 card the owner of the card decides which effect happens and unless they want to remove Emrakul they probably wont.

[Cyberpunker]

Someone mentioned that Leyline+Edict will get rid of Emrakul.
That doesn't work. All of the Eldrazi have similar wording to DSC. They all have a replacement effect which shuffles them back into their owner's library. When 2 different replacement effect would effect 1 card the owner of the card decides which effect happens and unless they want to remove Emrakul they probably wont.

If I'm not mistaken, the Leyline would remove it before it hit the graveyard. Whereas Emrakul's ability triggers once it does hit the grave.

[ristoman]

sounds like I'll be getting myself a Foil Bribery soon...

[dragzz]

Someone mentioned that Leyline+Edict will get rid of Emrakul.
That doesn't work. All of the Eldrazi have similar wording to DSC. They all have a replacement effect which shuffles them back into their owner's library. When 2 different replacement effect would effect 1 card the owner of the card decides which effect happens and unless they want to remove Emrakul they probably wont.

Completely different, leyline would work on the Eldrazi Legends.

Triggered Ability

When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.

Replacement Ability

If Darksteel Colossus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Darksteel Colossus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.

Seems that Oath is getting yet another boost, See Beyond.

[yukizora]

I see it played with Iona pretty easily.
Iona naming blue and you having a counterspell is very strong, because if they're trying to get rid of Iona, you could just get away with your counter. Emrakul is bigger than Iona, but unfortunately doesn't protects himself as good as Iona, by stopping opponent's counterspells or threats. In a deck with two targets, he's still the good complement to Iona, mostly because he's 15/15 and is better protected than Hellkite Overlord or others.
Big Plus, it's the Prerelease card, which will make it cheap. Don't want to waste another fourty bucks like on another Jace-like card. But that's certainly not the point here.

[chrissss]

When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.

so this can be used as a gaeas blessing if needed, with a thoughseize on yourself, you get the entire graveyard back. pretty good ability compared to the DSC imo.

Cant wait to start playing magic again, and especially since I only play oath.

[Phele]

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When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.

so this can be used as a gaeas blessing if needed, with a thoughseize on yourself, you get the entire graveyard back. pretty good ability compared to the DSC imo.

I think, this would work with Thirst for Knowledge as well. Nice.

[scifiantihero]

I think, this would work with Thirst for Knowledge as well. Nice.

Not being an artifact makes it not as good, though. 

[Delha]

so this can be used as a gaeas blessing if needed, with a thoughseize on yourself, you get the entire graveyard back. pretty good ability compared to the DSC imo.

Cant wait to start playing magic again, and especially since I only play oath.

I suspect that the number of times reshuffling saves you would be dwarfed by the number of times you lose from not being able to Tinker him out.

I also suspect that the number of times where Annihilator tomorrow trumps Elephant-Nuking today would be dwarfed by the number of times Jace bounces him before you swing.

[chrissss]

so this can be used as a gaeas blessing if needed, with a thoughseize on yourself, you get the entire graveyard back. pretty good ability compared to the DSC imo.

Cant wait to start playing magic again, and especially since I only play oath.

I suspect that the number of times reshuffling saves you would be dwarfed by the number of times you lose from not being able to Tinker him out.

I also suspect that the number of times where Annihilator tomorrow trumps Elephant-Nuking today would be dwarfed by the number of times Jace bounces him before you swing.

I didnt use DSC in my oath builds when I used to play oath. it was too slow compared to double dragons, doesnt protect itself in vintage and they can block it with Ochard tokens. also jace would bounce DSC back anyways. except for tinker, this badboy is better than DSC.

[Evenpence]

I didnt use DSC in my oath builds when I used to play oath. it was too slow compared to double dragons, doesnt protect itself in vintage and they can block it with Ochard tokens. also jace would bounce DSC back anyways. except for tinker, this badboy is better than DSC.

He's obviously better than DSC.  No one runs DSC in Oath to oath him up, they run him because he's able to be tinkered out.  The 15/15 wouldn't replace DSC, he would replace another Oath creature.  Running a robot or not running a robot is dependent on if you want another fatty to tinker up or not.  I don't think a single oath list has ever run DSC without tinker.

[marcb]

Evenpence,

Can't the 15/15 replace DSC if we just replace tinker with show and tell? I could be wrong, but I feel like Iona and Terastodon are the creatures I most certainly want in Oath. The third creature should be something that provides a 2nd path to victory, but I'm not sure if that should be by way of Tinker or Show and Tell. In the case of Tinker there are several options DSC, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, or Inkwell Leviathan. Honestly, I think I would lean towards Tinker for Inkwell, since he has shroud and islandwalk which makes him tougher to deal with than DSC, SotSW, or Emrakul, but I could see an argument for show and tell since it can let you drop any creature in hand which is exactly what you want in a secondary oath plan. Either way, I definitely consider the choice to be between Tinker/robot and show and tell/Emrakul and not between Emrakul versus non-robot oath creature.

[Evenpence]

Evenpence,

Can't the 15/15 replace DSC if we just replace tinker with show and tell? I could be wrong, but I feel like Iona and Terastodon are the creatures I most certainly want in Oath. The third creature should be something that provides a 2nd path to victory, but I'm not sure if that should be by way of Tinker or Show and Tell. In the case of Tinker there are several options DSC, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, or Inkwell Leviathan. Honestly, I think I would lean towards Tinker for Inkwell, since he has shroud and islandwalk which makes him tougher to deal with than DSC, SotSW, or Emrakul, but I could see an argument for show and tell since it can let you drop any creature in hand which is exactly what you want in a secondary oath plan. Either way, I definitely consider the choice to be between Tinker/robot and show and tell/Emrakul and not between Emrakul versus non-robot oath creature.

The two aren't exclusive, you can play tinker and show & tell.

I think if you're looking to 'replace' DSC with Emrakul and 'replace' Tinker with Show and Tell, you're probably making a mistake.  Replacing DSC with another robot is much better, imho.

If this guy replaced anyone, it would be the elephant.  Some people might add him as a 4th guy, but I doubt it.  Oath has enough dead cards as is.

[gkraigher]

look this argument is getting sillly.  the guy is 15/15 flying, cant be hit by a spell, and has annihiliator 6.  this is sign sealed and delivered on a silver spoon to oath.  he will be in vintage until they decided to print a 20/20 unblockable haste creature.  

this card is a sure thing.

[Cyberpunker]

look this argument is getting sillly.  the guy is 15/15 flying, cant be hit by a spell, and has annihiliator 6.  this is sign sealed and delivered on a silver spoon to oath.  he will be in vintage until they decided to print a 20/20 unblockable haste creature.  

this card is a sure thing.

That 20/20 needs to have protection from spells or have Shroud or else he is vulernable to the same problem Akroma/Hellkite plan was.

[scifiantihero]

look this argument is getting sillly.  the guy is 15/15 flying, cant be hit by a spell, and has annihiliator 6.  this is sign sealed and delivered on a silver spoon to oath.  he will be in vintage until they decided to print a 20/20 unblockable haste creature.  

this card is a sure thing.

And gives your opponent a turn to do whatever they'd like, unlike Iona and Terastadon, which is pretty much the discussion, and hardly worth diminishing with words like silly, since those decks have proven themselves, and this card isn't out yet. 

[Tha Gunslinga]

look this argument is getting sillly.  the guy is 15/15 flying, cant be hit by a spell, and has annihiliator 6.  this is sign sealed and delivered on a silver spoon to oath.  he will be in vintage until they decided to print a 20/20 unblockable haste creature.  

this card is a sure thing.

I personally don't think Emrakul is playable in Vintage, but we'll see what happens, I guess.

[dshin]

Don't think anybody mentioned Karakas as another possible answer to this guy.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Don't think anybody mentioned Karakas as another possible answer to this guy.

I’m pretty sure that’s because it’s painfully obvious.  Along with edict, sower, dupe, and friends

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

look this argument is getting sillly.  the guy is 15/15 flying, cant be hit by a spell, and has annihiliator 6.  this is sign sealed and delivered on a silver spoon to oath.  he will be in vintage until they decided to print a 20/20 unblockable haste creature.  

this card is a sure thing.

What you meant to say is that he is worse than double dragons which are worse than Iona(+maybe elephants). Understandable mistake. I agree he'll be in Vintage until something bigger gets printed for the same reason that ported Legacy decks will always be in Vintage, people can't or won't always play optimal decks.

If it wasn't mythic it would be a $0.25 rare before the next set came out.

[Delha]

@chrissss - Evenpence covered my point regarding Tinker, but to elaborate on the others...

Replacing DSC: I assumed that we were talking about Elephant Oath, since that seems to be the latest greatest. That meant running Key/Vault, which meant running Tinker, which meant you might as well run a bot. That said, I've always favored Inkwell because of shroud.

Replacing Terastodon: In my second line, I was comparing Emrakul to Terastodon. Any time you Oath up Emrakul, they have time to bounce it with Jace. In contrast, Terastodon can nuke Jace directly if he's in play. Alternately, you keep them off mana to tutor/cast him, or blow up your own stuff so that you have more elephants than they can remove. In all of these cases, Terastodon works out better than Emrakul. The immediate effect from Terastodon is too important.

Replacing Iona: This works out much the same as Terastodon. If Jace is in play Oathing up either doesn't matter, since both get bounced before doing anything relevant. If he isn't though, Iona prevents him from coming down. Again, immediate effect on your opponent is key.

At the end of the day, Emrakul is only good if they can't answer by next turn. If you're banking on that though, you might as well run double dragons. Why cripple your opponent on turn three when you can just kill them outright?

[Cyberpunker]

I think it matters that Emrakul cannot be bounced except by Jace, Aether Spellbomb, Seal of Removal, and Curfew.

Akroma/Hellkite was vulnerable to bounce while Emrakul is not.

[chrissss]

@chrissss - Evenpence covered my point regarding Tinker, but to elaborate on the others...

Replacing DSC: I assumed that we were talking about Elephant Oath, since that seems to be the latest greatest. That meant running Key/Vault, which meant running Tinker, which meant you might as well run a bot. That said, I've always favored Inkwell because of shroud.

Replacing Terastodon: In my second line, I was comparing Emrakul to Terastodon. Any time you Oath up Emrakul, they have time to bounce it with Jace. In contrast, Terastodon can nuke Jace directly if he's in play. Alternately, you keep them off mana to tutor/cast him, or blow up your own stuff so that you have more elephants than they can remove. In all of these cases, Terastodon works out better than Emrakul. The immediate effect from Terastodon is too important.

Replacing Iona: This works out much the same as Terastodon. If Jace is in play Oathing up either doesn't matter, since both get bounced before doing anything relevant. If he isn't though, Iona prevents him from coming down. Again, immediate effect on your opponent is key.

At the end of the day, Emrakul is only good if they can't answer by next turn. If you're banking on that though, you might as well run double dragons. Why cripple your opponent on turn three when you can just kill them outright?

Well atm I dont have access to any magic card, because i am away from home, but the oath build I was thinking off would have dragon breath, I would not run emrakul without it for the reasons you explained above.

I myself do run either inkwell or the spinx because of FOW pitchability and versatility imo. I havent used DSC in a while myself.

[Delha]

I think it matters that Emrakul cannot be bounced except by Jace, Aether Spellbomb, Seal of Removal, and Curfew.

Akroma/Hellkite was vulnerable to bounce while Emrakul is not.

In fairness, Emrakul is less vulnerable to bounce, but not invulnerable.

Compared to Inkwell, you give up a Tinker target for a better clock. Aside from bounce, they're answered by nearly all the same things.

Compared to Iona/Terastodon, do you think giving up immediate impact is worth the greater eventual effect? If Emrakul gets popular enough, we'll also probably see more Tariff/Edict, since they double as non-blue answers to Iona.

Well atm I dont have access to any magic card, because i am away from home, but the oath build I was thinking off would have dragon breath, I would not run emrakul without it for the reasons you explained above.

I myself do run either inkwell or the spinx because of FOW pitchability and versatility imo. I havent used DSC in a while myself.

That strikes me as even worse. Reliably getting a Breath onto him means even more dead slots. If you draw into Breath, things get really bad. Your odds of flipping one before Emrakul go down, and you can't even just Oath and hardcast it. Some numbers that came up earlier:

The objection based on Dragon's Breath is valid: the odds of haste are as follows (for 1 Eldrazi)
0 DB -> 0%
1 DB ->50%
2 DB -> 75%
3 DB -> 87.5%
4 DB -> 93.75%

You'd run at least 2 main...and that's EWWW.  The card is totally dead when you're not Oathing.

[Cyberpunker]

I am not talking about replacing Elephant or Iona. I am talking about running 4 creatures.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Delha: if you plan on running some see beyonds, drawing those breaths or the eldrazi is less of a problem.
You could run 1 eldrazi and 2 dragons breath, along another creature as iona. (You don't have to put the breath on if it's in your grave)
Not saying it's definitely better, but it might be.

[Delha]

I am not talking about replacing Elephant or Iona. I am talking about running 4 creatures.

By nature, adding a creature to Oath reduces the odds of hitting the others. Unless you're cutting Jace/Tezz, why go up to 4 fatties? Having more dead draws sounds far worse to me than running an analogue, even if potentially inferior. By replacing, you'll occasionally hit situations where Iona would've been better than Emrakul, and that will suck. That's hopefully outnumbered by the times where Emrakul proves better than Iona would have. By adding, any time you draw Emrakul instead of a real spell will suck. That's unlikely to be outweighed by the upside of adding a 6th win condition (assuming Jace/Tezz/fatties).

[Leooooh]

Hey

We've been discussing about Emrakul a lot, but no build has been tested yet. So, with this in mind, I want
to propose some thoughts about an Emrakul build. Here are my first build. There are some cards that I still don't
know the exact number of copies, but we need to start with something.


1 Iona, Shield to Emeria
1 Emrakul, Aeons Thorn
(2)

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Mana Drain
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Thirst for Knowledge
(18)

1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Regrowth
(6)

4 Oath of Druids
1 Dragon Breath
(5)

1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sensei's Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
(11)

1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
(2)

4 Misty Rainsforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
(16)


 I wanted to try the new draw spell, See Beyond. It seems to be useful in oath builds since it can put back, Iona,
Emrakul and other things that we don't wanna see in hand. If we could add those spell, then we could try to increase the number of dragon breaths maindeck.
In testing, even enchanting iona with breath was really amazing. What do you guys think of it? This guy is so awesome....You only need to attack
once.

Thanks for the help,

Leonardo

[mistervader]

I'm very inclined to look at the old Matias lists with Iona + Double Dragon. That deck ran a set of Impulse, which you can change into See Beyond, then work your way up from there.

At this point, I'm very inclined to try having Emrakul and only Emrakul as my creature in the maindeck, then jam as many Dragon's Breaths as I feasibly can into the library, so that he can be hasted asap.

My only janky alternative is I'd run Emrakul and Shaarum, and run a couple of Lightning Greaves in the deck. But I'd really like people to discourage me from this idea, stat, because it looks cool on paper, but I'm sure it's not a really awesome thing to do.

[Cyberpunker]

I am not talking about replacing Elephant or Iona. I am talking about running 4 creatures.

By nature, adding a creature to Oath reduces the odds of hitting the others. Unless you're cutting Jace/Tezz, why go up to 4 fatties? Having more dead draws sounds far worse to me than running an analogue, even if potentially inferior. By replacing, you'll occasionally hit situations where Iona would've been better than Emrakul, and that will suck. That's hopefully outnumbered by the times where Emrakul proves better than Iona would have. By adding, any time you draw Emrakul instead of a real spell will suck. That's unlikely to be outweighed by the upside of adding a 6th win condition (assuming Jace/Tezz/fatties).

Show and Tell

And yes I did cut Tezzeret and did not even try Jace yet. And the idea with Oath is that you usually Oath twice and win. First one locks them while the 2nd one allows you to finish. I think there are a lot of times where you Oath and cannot win the next turn. Emrakul guarantees that you win the next turn he comes out. I used to run 2 Elephants, 1 Angel, 1 Leviathan. I cut 1 Elephant for Emrakul because I find myself having to Oath a 3rd time for either Iona or my Islandwalking Robot for the win. Emrakul along with Elephant or any other combination would destroy my opponent.

Atleast according to theory...