Realms Uncharted

[DubDub]

What about Mono-G Stax?  Between Khalni Garden and Gods' Eye, Gate to Reikei stack at 2 can be supported.  Here's a super-rough list:

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
2 Gods' Eye, Gate to Reikei
1 Khalni Garden
4 Mishra's Workshop
5 Forest
1 Petrified Field

1 Fastbond
2 Realms Uncharted
1 Life from the Loam

1 Trinisphere
4 Null Rod
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lodestone Golem

The above is likely terrible, but that's where I'd start testing (if I had the time/inclination to do so), keeping in mind that I'd probably change ~20 cards right away.  Unfortunately I'm not sure Realms deserves its slot in the above list, let alone a tuned version.

[Delha]

The thing about this is that Intuition puts ONE card in hand.  This puts TWO.  That's called card advantage, and makes this potentially useful.  It also is green, meaning you can build a mono-green deck and not worry about fetches and duals, and unlike Loam you don't have to take the time to dredge, and it's not totally dead vs graveyard hate.  Loam is also a sorcery, so it's easier for them to counter.

Looks like Bert beat me to it, but yeah. Having a full grip means a lot less when Rule of Law is on the table, and that's why I was saying that your main limitation is whether or not you have Fastbond. Also, having Crucible down means that all the lands in your grave become virtual CA anyway. This makes getting 2 instead of 1 matter even less.

If you're facing an opposing Leyline/Crypt, at least Intuition can find you answers. I can't offhand think of a single land with a disenchant effect. I agree completely that Loam is worthless against grave hate and that Sorcery vs Instant sucks, but I'm not comparing Realms to Loam, I'm comparing it to Intuition.

...The comparison/contrast to intuition is the part I keep getting hung up on, as it seems like most people are saying "this instead of that" when thinking about the two cards. I would love to see both in a list...

In fairness, I was thinking 3x Intuition and 2xRealms so I could use the former to dig up Crucibles, then use Realms to grab lands (and hold extra Intuitions to find other threats/answers as needed). It felt like I'd be overloading though, and once I dipped below four Intuitions, I kept coming back to the question "Why shouldn't I cut Realms for another Intuition?" The fact that I couldn't think of a good answer is what changed my mind. When I looked at your pile of Field/Waste/Strip/Bazaar, I just kept thinking that I wanted the ability to fetch Crucible (and that once we had it, Field and Waste were redundant).

[Grand Inquisitor]

If Wizards prints the Land Force of Will

...wants some of what Meatbert is smoking

[vassago]

...The comparison/contrast to intuition is the part I keep getting hung up on, as it seems like most people are saying "this instead of that" when thinking about the two cards. I would love to see both in a list...

When I looked at your pile of Field/Waste/Strip/Bazaar, I just kept thinking that I wanted the ability to fetch Crucible (and that once we had it, Field and Waste were redundant).

I am curious as to why there is a hang up on needing or wanting have to have crucible. Personally, I wouldn't play more than one, as it seems cool but not necessary. I would think that petrified field in that pile, or any pile, considering board position obviously, forces them to give you strip/waste or waste/bazaar.  Either way you are happy right? The presence of P.field makes the decision awkward for them, and guarantees it's placement in the yard, I would think anyway.

I think the merits of Realms maybe not be seen at first, but I think the set up nature of it's use isn't getting the light of consideration like it's "gifts piles" uses are. This card almost literally guarantees lands drops and filters your deck out of bad draws in a worse case scenario way of thinking. Considering it further, I think your gifts ungiven/intuition piles might be dependant on what they give you, but that depends on the deck build and somewhat guides away from the discussion about the card itself.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Let's not forget that since this is green it pitches to Bounty of the Hunt.

[vassago]

Let's not forget that since this is green it pitches to Bounty of the Hunt.

lol

[Delha]

I am curious as to why there is a hang up on needing or wanting have to have crucible. Personally, I wouldn't play more than one, as it seems cool but not necessary. I would think that petrified field in that pile, or any pile, considering board position obviously, forces them to give you strip/waste or waste/bazaar.  Either way you are happy right? The presence of P.field makes the decision awkward for them, and guarantees it's placement in the yard, I would think anyway.

I think the merits of Realms maybe not be seen at first, but I think the set up nature of it's use isn't getting the light of consideration like it's "gifts piles" uses are. This card almost literally guarantees lands drops and filters your deck out of bad draws in a worse case scenario way of thinking. Considering it further, I think your gifts ungiven/intuition piles might be dependant on what they give you, but that depends on the deck build and somewhat guides away from the discussion about the card itself.

In a land-centric Stax-type deck, I figured Strip Lock is living the dream. I also figured that with the spells in question, Crucible is kind of like Yawg Will on steroids. Bazaar isn't great alone, you need Crucible/Loam/Squee/etc (or a deck that actively wants the discard) to really break it. Also, what happens when you cast this again without recursion? You're not really going to run multiple Fields are you?

I can see your point about smoothing out your land drops and filtering for better draws down the line, but is such an incremental gain worth the effort? I realize we're talking about a Stax shell, which means you're pushing towards a longer game, but it still feels like it's not doing enough. I think I intuitively want the first one to set me up for Strip Lock, and the second to complete it.

Let's not forget that since this is green it pitches to Bounty of the Hunt.

Well, damn. If someone woulda said this from the start, I'd have saved myself some typing.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I am curious as to why there is a hang up on needing or wanting have to have crucible.

Crucible is like a neverending Loam, and with Crucible, Exploration, and Glacial Chasm you can lock out the vast majority of Vintage decks.

[scifiantihero]

Let's not forget that since this is green it pitches to Bounty of the Hunt.

This would be an important factor in half of my little brother's deck ideas . . .

[median]

I can see a GaT like deck evolving from this and the landfall mechanic, for three mana you get 0-6 mana back and 2-5 land drops, with fastbond out it could be a real powerhouse.

[madmanmike25]

Hmm what about playing this in a non-blue deck?  That way we could stop the comparisons to Intuition.  G/W comes to mind, as does creatures like:

Knight of the Reliquary
Vinelasher Kudzu
Tarmogoofy
Gaddock Teeg
Aven Mindcensor
Qasali Pridemage
Lotus Cobra
Noble Hierarch
Garruk Wildspeaker (not a critter, but still you get the idea)

[Delha]

So what piles do you make in that deck?

[meadbert]

I am curious as to why there is a hang up on needing or wanting have to have crucible.

Crucible is like a neverending Loam, and with Crucible, Exploration, and Glacial Chasm you can lock out the vast majority of Vintage decks.

The primary advantage of Realms Uncharted over Intuition is that Realms gives you +1 card advantage while Intuition breaks even.

Using that same logic Crucible gives you -1 card advantage while Life from the Loam gives +2 and the ability to keep doing that.

I am not saying that Loam is better than Crucible.  I would rather resolves Crucible than Loam because multiple lands in hand is just not that valuable, but for the same reason I would rather have Intuition than Realms Uncharted.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Crucible gives you +1 advantage every TURN, hon, surely you can see that.

[meadbert]

Might point is not that Loam is better than Crucible.  Crucible is better.  My point is that Intuition is better than Realms Unchartered since Intuition gets Loam which can give you card advantage every turn while Realms uncharted is a one shot deal.

[TheBrassMan]

This conversation is really turning this into the poster thread for "why card advantage isn't an accurate measure of value".  There are many situations in which tutoring for four lands is worse than casting Council of the Soratami, which is of course unplayable.  I can't imagine the deck that would want this kind of effect, as Workshop lists seem like the only thing that would be able to leverage +2 lands, and I'm not convinced they'd want to pay 2G for the effect.  In most of the piles people have suggested so far (and anything involving Petrified Field), a Sylvan Scrying would do the job a lot better at one less mana.  I'm with Meadbert that Intuition+Life from the Loam would be better, but I've played with that and been sorely disappointed - right now the lands just do not exist to make this card an engine.  This is not to say that factors couldn't change, either from dramatic metagame shifts or new printings, though I really think it would take a strange set of circumstances to make this card better than Sylvan Scrying (which I do not think is a good card)

[goober]

All of the best case scenario 6 card combinations seem really underwhelming for how many resources need to be put into it.  Why pay 3 for an artifact then 2G for a spell to be able to get wasteland recursion when 1 + 2 can get infinite turns, 2 + a land gets Iona, or 3UU gets infinite turns by itself?

[DubDub]

All of the best case scenario 6 card combinations seem really underwhelming for how many resources need to be put into it.  Why pay 3 for an artifact then 2G for a spell to be able to get wasteland recursion when 1 + 2 can get infinite turns, 2 + a land gets Iona, or 3UU gets infinite turns by itself?

As I said when I posted my list, I'm not sure that Realms Uncharted has earned a slot in Mono-G stax, but I definitely do think that being able to set Stack at 2 and leave it there due to Khalni Garden is a very strong play.  It is hard to win with infinite turns through a stack at 1, though I have done it, but it's more than twice as hard to win through a stack set at 2.
Then the question becomes, is it better to go light on the spheres and play spells like this to get into a lock sooner, or to play soft-lock spheres and then count on hard locking later using just the draw step.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

could we put an end to this discussion by concluding that realms isn't THE thing in vintage yet, but will eventually (because sooner or later, another broken land will be printed) be a house?

[Delha]

could we put an end to this discussion by concluding that realms isn't THE thing in vintage yet, but will eventually (because sooner or later, another broken land will be printed) be a house?

This is not, and never was about finding good lands to go in the pile.

In a vaccuum, Waste/Strip/Field/WINLAND is terrifying. Consider though, that WINLAND is going to the bin, and you have to spend a turn to Field for it. You can Waste something first, but that means adding another turn to your clock. It's cheaper and faster to use Sylvan Scrying to dig it up directly.

If you were trying to abuse Crucible or Loam, Realms is inferior because other cards are able to tutor for either piece, not just one half. Also, the recursion by nature makes the primary advantage of Realms (+1 card to hand) less relevant.

The problem with Realms is that no matter what you're trying to do, there is proably another card printed that does a better job of it.

[Oath of Happy]

This card is useless, and the artwork makes me want to vomit...

But seriously, why would this ever be played over something like Intuiontion, Crop Rotation, or Sylvan Scrying.

[BruiZar]

A) This gives 2 cards in hand and 2 cards in graveyard, intuition gives 2 cards in graveyard 1 in hand.

B) Having Crop Rotation countered means you're fucked, also it only grabs one card in exchange for another so it is card disadvantage

C) Slvan Scrying costs 1 mana less, and allows you to search for 3 cards less

[Killane]

A) This gives 2 cards in hand and 2 cards in graveyard, intuition gives 2 cards in graveyard 1 in hand.

B) Having Crop Rotation countered means you're fucked, also it only grabs one card in exchange for another so it is card disadvantage

C) Slvan Scrying costs 1 mana less, and allows you to search for 3 cards less

A- yes but, it's not nearly as abusable as Intuition since it can't get the LfTL to go with the broken lands, can;t grab other stuff to go with everythign else, and can't serve as an instant speed demonic tutor for 3-of's or 4-of's in a pinch.

[Oath of Happy]

A) This gives 2 cards in hand and 2 cards in graveyard, intuition gives 2 cards in graveyard 1 in hand.

B) Having Crop Rotation countered means you're fucked, also it only grabs one card in exchange for another so it is card disadvantage

C) Slvan Scrying costs 1 mana less, and allows you to search for 3 cards less

Those are some good points, however I still can't see this card being any good.

A) Sure you only get 1 card, but you so many more options.  Intuition isn't restricted to lands, so if you have an active welder, you can grab 3 busted artifacts and weld in 2 of them.  If you have nothing to abuse the graveyard, you can just grab 3 bombs and play 1 of them, such as 3 Welders.  The fact that the cards must have different names also gives Intution a huge edge because if you need land destruction you can grab 3 wastelands, or as Killane noted, you can grab 2 lands and a Life from the Loam.

B) As Far as Crop rotation goes, getting it countered sucks, but it also gets you the exact land you need and puts it directly into play, which can be huge for tempo if you're trying to get an early mana denial plan going.  Even if it does get countered, a sacraficed Gemstone is usually a minor setback, and since it's an instant it can be done in response to an opponents Wasteland.

C) Sylvan Scrying is one mana less which is big.  You search for 3 less cards but it puts your best land into your hand.  Realms Uncharted puts your 3rd and 4th best lands into your hand.

D) Look at that picture 

[wiley]

Taking a look at this card in the context of an entire vintage legal deck, I doubt anyone would disagree that it would need to go into a Lands deck similar to the Legacy deck.  This is due to the fact that lands are a small part of stax, which already hates to run green, and no fish (or any other) deck in its right mind wants this over black tutors if it can help it.  Such a deck that can't run black tutors is most likely built on a very redundant system anyway with plenty of 4 of, making this cards less important.

If you were to build a vintage Lands deck that would be competitive, the best win conditions are barbarian ring and cephalid coliseum, with a very distant second place going to man lands/the nonviable academy ruins->mind slaver lock.

Assuming you were to go the cephalid coliseum route, you have access to blue, making Intuition the tutor of choice.  This also allows you to run blue restricted cards like ancestral recall and time walk (possible tinker for a crucible).  This would also allow you to run academy ruins as protection for your crucible.  You may even be able to run force of will/daze/MisD/spell pierce as disruption.

Assuming you went with barbarian ring, your best tutor is probably going to be black, and you will most likely be running dark confidants with a lot of 4 ofs for consistency.  You would run duress/thoughtseize as your main disruption spells with perhaps some number of goblin welder as protection for you crucible.

Either way, in vintage, you would not run this card due to deck building constraints.  Namely that there are better cards that double for the intended purpose of finding specific lands.  In blue there is intuition, in black there is demonic, vamp, seal and possibly consultation.

If, for some reason, you want to argue that this card is good for its card advantage, there are also better cards in both colors with half the blue restricted cards and bob.

On the off chance that someone would try to shoehorn some number of "broken" lands and this into an existing archetype, they should ask themselves 'Why do I need Realms Uncharted? Can't I just tutor for Broken Land already?  Why wasn't Broken Land in the deck to begin with?'.

In Legacy you have the exact most of the same problems (no black tutors there), but blue is so much better there because your restricted draw spells are playable as 4 ofs there.  This card doesn't have a home in anything but a future standard or extended deck.

[Sobolev]

The best stacks I could come up with are similar to what other people have here:

Tolarian Academy, Wasteland, Strip Mine, Bazaar of Baghdad

Something to that effect.  I am curious however what a stack like

Tolarian Academy, Dark Depths, Strip Mine, Tolaria West or a similar stack would go.  If they give you the two tolarias you go get something, maybe Lotus, heck maybe Dark Depths.  If they give you Depths, you Living Wish for a Hexmage and rock their life.  Or something.

I'm going to get this card, but I don't know what I'm going to do with it yet.

And no, I can't really demonstrate this card is better than Intuition.  We can't really until there are four lands that any two give you a lock, or there are four restricted lands that are crazy.

Part of the problem with this card is that when you Gifts, you get four cards, and then immediately cast two of them, sometimes involving Will for the other two.  With this card you get two Lands, of which you can only play once a turn, on your turn.  The card is inherently limiting itself in this way.  I see the appeal of this card with Crucible  but personally I keep picturing it with Fastbond.

[Delha]

A) This gives 2 cards in hand and 2 cards in graveyard, intuition gives 2 cards in graveyard 1 in hand.

B) Having Crop Rotation countered means you're fucked, also it only grabs one card in exchange for another so it is card disadvantage

C) Slvan Scrying costs 1 mana less, and allows you to search for 3 cards less

A) Seriously? This again?

Having a full grip means a lot less when Rule of Law is on the table, and that's why I was saying that your main limitation is whether or not you have Fastbond. Also, having Crucible down means that all the lands in your grave become virtual CA anyway. This makes getting 2 instead of 1 matter even less.

This conversation is really turning this into the poster thread for "why card advantage isn't an accurate measure of value"...
...though I really think it would take a strange set of circumstances to make this card better than Sylvan Scrying (which I do not think is a good card)

B) Crop Rotation being worse than Sylvan Scrying does not means Realms is not also worse.

C) Please see below.

In a vaccuum, Waste/Strip/Field/WINLAND is terrifying. Consider though, that WINLAND is going to the bin, and you have to spend a turn to Field for it. You can Waste something first, but that means adding another turn to your clock. It's cheaper and faster to use Sylvan Scrying to dig it up directly.

For any pile you make, your opponent will give you the cards that least affect his plans. Gifts was able to build piles like Wish/Walk/Will/Recoup, where no matter what you chose, they would take two extra turns and resolve a fat Will. Being limited to lands makes this very hard to break in a comparable manner.