[Premium Article] Eldrazi in Eternal: A Vintage Set Review

[Smmenen]

Monday, April 19th - With Rise of the Eldrazi promising to shake up Constructed, does Vintage get a piece of the fifteen-mana action? Stephen Menendian investigates how the latest set impacts Magic’s most broken format, and updates his comprehensive list of Vintage playables.

Every set review I've read so far underestimates the power of See Beyond...

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/19184_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Eldrazi_in_Eternal_A_Vintage_Set_Review.html

[psyburat]

The most exciting part of this article was the $21 price tag of the entirety of your gotta have it list.

[NodFreak]

My top 3:
Emrakul, See Beyond and Ancient Stirrings

[CorwinB]

Very nice set review. Technically, Survival Cache could be abused by Yawgmoth's Will, just not on the same turn : the card only goes to the exile zone the first time around. After it rebounds, and goes on the stack at the beginning of your next ukpeep, it goes to the graveyard normally just like any other spell. So it can be cast again by Yawgmoth's Will. And it will rebound too, since the second clause of Yawgmoth's Will won't trigger (it never goes to the yard the first time around). So you could cast it on turn T, it would rebound at the ukpeep of T+1 and go to the graveyard, you could cast Yawgmoth's Will on T+1 and recast it, meaning it would resolve on T+1 to, and another time at the upkeep of T+2. Meaning you get the effect 4 times (provided Yawgmoth's Will is not enough to end the game when you cast it).

Every set review I've read so far underestimates the power of See Beyond...

To be fair, most/all set reviews only deal with Standard, where Polymorph/Summoning Trap decks (the closest thing there is to Oath) are not very high tier at the moment. I suppose it could replace Divination/Treasure Hunt in decks using those as draw, but the currently favored draw spells in Standard are Jace the Mind Sculptor and Mind Spring, which is seeing a lot of play in tap-out control.

[zeus-online]

I think see beyond will get played alot. It's kinda what we've all been looking for since brainstorm took the hit.

[o uncola o]

"See Beyond" may see some play, but I do not think that it will be the powerhouse that is predicted here...

IMHO Impulse is strictly better.

1U for a sorcerywith that effect... just does not do it for me.

Looks like we wait for the next set to see if Vintage gets a boost.

[Troy_Costisick]

"See Beyond" may see some play, but I do not think that it will be the powerhouse that is predicted here...

IMHO Impulse is strictly better.

No it isn't!  Ugh.  Being able to shuffle your Tinker/Oath targets back into your library is hugely important in Vintage.  Impulse is an underrated card IMO, but is is absolutely not- NOT- strictly better than See Beyond.  They have different applications and advantages.

[DubDub]

Very nice set review. Technically, Survival Cache could be abused by Yawgmoth's Will, just not on the same turn : the card only goes to the exile zone the first time around. After it rebounds, and goes on the stack at the beginning of your next ukpeep, it goes to the graveyard normally just like any other spell. So it can be cast again by Yawgmoth's Will. And it will rebound too, since the second clause of Yawgmoth's Will won't trigger (it never goes to the yard the first time around). So you could cast it on turn T, it would rebound at the ukpeep of T+1 and go to the graveyard, you could cast Yawgmoth's Will on T+1 and recast it, meaning it would resolve on T+1 to, and another time at the upkeep of T+2. Meaning you get the effect 4 times (provided Yawgmoth's Will is not enough to end the game when you cast it).

When you cast a spell with Rebound from your graveyard (from Yawgwill or Recoup etc) Rebound will not trigger, because you're not casting it from your hand.  Rebound will also not trigger if you cast the spell off Cascade or Mind's Desire, or when it unsuspends (from Jhoira, Delay).

[Evenpence]

"See Beyond" may see some play, but I do not think that it will be the powerhouse that is predicted here...

IMHO Impulse is strictly better.

No it isn't!  Ugh.  Being able to shuffle your Tinker/Oath targets back into your library is hugely important in Vintage.  Impulse is an underrated card IMO, but is is absolutely not- NOT- strictly better than See Beyond.  They have different applications and advantages.

In any deck that isn't Oath, Impulse is better.

There is no way I am playing this card over Impulse just because I can shuffle my robot back into my yard in a non-Oath deck.

[Smmenen]

"See Beyond" may see some play, but I do not think that it will be the powerhouse that is predicted here...

IMHO Impulse is strictly better.

No it isn't!  Ugh.  Being able to shuffle your Tinker/Oath targets back into your library is hugely important in Vintage.  Impulse is an underrated card IMO, but is is absolutely not- NOT- strictly better than See Beyond.  They have different applications and advantages.

In any deck that isn't Oath, Impulse is better.

There is no way I am playing this card over Impulse just because I can shuffle my robot back into my yard in a non-Oath deck.

you might be right, but I'm not so sure...

The point I make in this article is a difficult one to explicate because it's not a simple point.   But the point is that there is a relationship in Vintage between variance, opening hands, and card utility in the post-Brainstorm era.   This relationship makes this card very good. 

I think the closest comparison is Night's Whisper, and I think there is a very good chance that this card will prove, in time, to be the best of those close comparisons (NW, Impulse, etc).   

[Evenpence]

you might be right, but I'm not so sure...

The point I make in this article is a difficult one to explicate because it's not a simple point.   But the point is that there is a relationship in Vintage between variance, opening hands, and card utility in the post-Brainstorm era.   This relationship makes this card very good. 

I think the closest comparison is Night's Whisper, and I think there is a very good chance that this card will prove, in time, to be the best of those close comparisons (NW, Impulse, etc).   

I think Night's Whisper is probably a more accurate comparison as well.

See Beyond is better than Night's Whisper.  It doesn't cost life, so you can run it in high multiples much more easily.  It also (more importantly) pitches to force.

It's still not better than Impulse, though. 

[Smmenen]

The problem with NW is that it forces blue decks to fetch out a dual land on turn one, which creates immediate vulnerabilities to Wasteland, and Fish and Stax strategies in turn.   This is the chief advantage that See Beyond has over NW. 

This card doesn't have either vulnerability.   Impulse is -- in my experience -- rarely played.   Last year, when Thirst was restricted, there was a huge surge in people messing around with NW.   

[Meddling Mike]

When I was considering cards to compare to See Beyond the first one that actually came to mind was Lat-Nam's Legacy.

Better than LNL because:
-No Delayed Draw
-Can be cast with an empty hand

Worse than LNL because:
-It's a sorcery rather than an instant

Better than NW because:
-Potentially puts an Oath Creature Back
-It's Blue (Can be pitched to FoW and more reliably cast)
-Does not cost 2 life

Worse than NW because:
-If you don't have irrelevant cards then you have to put something relevant back


I think the fact that it's a sorcery will keep it from seeing wide play. I don't want to get off drain/spell pierce mana to cast this thing during my main phase and by the time I have mana for both See Beyond is kind of underwhelming compared to other higher cc spells I could be playing EOT.

It's all just theory at this point, but I'm just not that excited by this card.

[Smmenen]

-If you don't have irrelevant cards then you have to put something relevant back

I think this point is where alot of people are getting tripped up.    They've set up this binary: dead/non-dead cards, or relevant/irrellevant cards.  Then, they sort cards like DSC, inky, Oath creatures, tendrils, etc into the 'dead' category and everything else into the non-dead category.  

It's not that a card is irrelevant, such as a land, but that another card might be better.  

For example, is that 4th land or mana source more important than a 2nd Force of Will?  Or, is having a mox in hand better than a 2nd Dark Confidant?   And so on.  

One of the chief benefits of this card is that it will help Vintage pilots better manipulate their library to better form their mana base.   That's the key point of this card, I think: Matchup disparity.    Look at Shay's Oath list.  26 mana sources.   Same with my Bob tez lists.   Against some matchups, like Workshops and Fish, you want super stable mana.   Against Drain mirrors, you want spells and ways to interact.  See Beyond, like Brainstorm, allows you to adjust the hand+ library interaction to adjust for each matchup. 

 Hands that have just 1-2 too many lands in a particular matchup will be turned into more spells, and hands with too few land can be turned into more mana stable hands.  

I think application of this card will help people understand this.  

Consider a hand like this:

Island,
M. Rainforest
Underground Sea
Delta,
Mox
See Beyond
Drain

It's not that the 5th mana in your hand is 'irrellevant,' but that in this matchup, you may prefer spells.

Or a hand like this:

Island,
Delta,
Mox
See Beyond
Drain
Force
Force

Now, let's say you play See Beyond and you draw land and Gifts.   what do you shuffle back?   Maybe you don't need or what that additional land right now.  you can put that back.   That's why I think this card could be really good in something like TPS, not just Oath.  And it's not because you have 'irrellevant' cards so much as you have cards that aren't situationally optimal.  Certainly, a card like this would be great in Oath, where you are searching for key cards, and it shuffles dead cards back, and I think much better than Impulse, but I think it's also going to be good in other archetypes as well.  

 

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

you hit it steve.
Also, the point of the additional information you gain about the 2 cards that will be drawn (possibly affecting your choice to shuffle back) should not be underestimated.
to further illustrate possible uses in other archetypes:
In a fish list: do you need that second null rod or thada adel? Fish decks are often redundant, because they run few tutors. With see beyond, they can really smooth out their draws.

[Cyberpunker]

We have a blue Night's Whisper that doesn't give you the card advantage...And I don't think people should use Night's Whisper now because I think people would now rather cast Oath.

[zeus-online]

While not strictly better, i think this card will prove to be better then other alternatives simply due to filtering being so strong in vintage. All cards are not equal, and definetly NOT in a format with black lotus and ancestral recall (Hint, they're generally much better then any other cards in the deck)

Impulse is better if you're looking for a specific card though.

[LUPO]

Think about it this way.  It is a brainstorm that draws 2 and puts back and has the shuffle effect included.  Given WOTC's awesome fear of brainstorm they made a 2 casting cost sorcery instead of a 1cc instant.  Either this will be balanced and good and we will have a fair vintage card, or it will gather dust and our foil ones will warp.  If the latter is true, maybe nextime it will be a 1cc sorcery, or a 2cc instant etc...

[Smmenen]

yeah, and that's a point i make in the article: this card isn't good enough in legacy for two reasons: 1) Brainstorm is legal, and 2) you don't have moxen.  Those two reasons are the reasons its good in Vintage. 
 

[Evenpence]

That's why I think this card could be really good in something like TPS, not just Oath.  And it's not because you have 'irrellevant' cards so much as you have cards that aren't situationally optimal.  Certainly, a card like this would be great in Oath, where you are searching for key cards, and it shuffles dead cards back, and I think much better than Impulse, but I think it's also going to be good in other archetypes as well.

I think this reasoning (the entire post) is very sound.  You make a solid argument and follow it up with common applications that make the card very good.

That being said, being a sorcery and only digging two cards down is in both regards inferior to Impulse.  Both are +0 CA.  While you might get two bombs in your hand to trade for something like a 3rd or 4th land, it isn't incredibly likely.

Impulse will find you one bomb (or relevant card) much more often than See Beyond will find you one, let alone two.  Moreover, it does it at instant speed.

I can't help but think that if See Beyond were printed in Visions and Impulse were printed today, many would think Impulse was the new savior of Vintage in a post-Brainstorm era and everyone would be trying out four.

[Cyberpunker]

I can't help but think that if See Beyond were printed in Visions and Impulse were printed today, many would think Impulse was the new savior of Vintage in a post-Brainstorm era and everyone would be trying out four.

I agree with that. I mean what are you giving up when you decide to run this card? What other cards could you be running instead of this? This card can be useful because it can act as a very slow Brainstorm. But I think every deck that can use it would be cutting something better.

[Evenpence]

Island,
M. Rainforest
Underground Sea
Delta,
Mox
Impulse
Drain


Impulse here allows you to feign Spell Pierce and digs two cards deeper, potentially drawing you into a bomb for your next turn.  It is also far better if your opponent attempts a turn one win, as the Force of Will might be the 3rd or 4th card down.  It's better in both respects to offense and defense here, in my opinion.

Clearly if you get two insane cards off the See Beyond, S.B. is much better.  I take confidence in knowing that will happen far less than you drawing one or two inconsequential cards off the S.B.


Or a hand like this:

Island,
Delta,
Mox
Impulse
Drain
Force
Force

Impulse is better (again) because you can feign Spell Pierce.  With this hand, you want business sooner rather than later anyway.  If your See Beyond netted you a Mox and a Gifts Ungiven, it might have been better as Impulse.  You wouldn't have to trade away another blue source for your drain on turn 2 if you chucked a land back.  Clearly you have the option with See Beyond, so let's say you chuck a mox back to keep drain mana up.  

In that case, you've used your See Beyond as an Impulse that only went two deep at sorcery speed.

EDIT:  Clearly there are examples I can think of where See Beyond will be much better than Impulse.  However, those examples come up far less often than Impulse netting you a great card that you need *now*.  Did I mention that Impulse gets your Force of Will easier?  

[Smmenen]

See Beyond allows you to shape your hand far more than Impulse because Impulse only puts a card into your hand.

This is what I loved so much about Merchant Scroll.   It wasn't only an offensive and defensive card, but it was a great developmental card.  In the early game, you fired off Ancestral or protected yourself with Force.  In the late game you got countermagic or a big game ending spell like Gifts.   

I see See Beyond similarly.  It's a developmental card.   It allows you to reduce opening hand variance, which is at an all time high due to 1) the restriction of Brainstorm, and 2) the density of restricted cards in decks these days.   It allows you to keep land lite or land heavy hands and shape them into the hand of your chocie, just as Brainstorm did.    It also allows you to adjust for matchups, like Scroll did.   

I think the key point is development.  See Beyond is a great development card.  Impulse is closer to a tutor than a development card. 

[Sobolev]

See Beyond allows you to shape your hand far more than Impulse because Impulse only puts a card into your hand.

This is what I loved so much about Merchant Scroll.   It wasn't only an offensive and defensive card, but it was a great developmental card.  In the early game, you fired off Ancestral or protected yourself with Force.  In the late game you got countermagic or a big game ending spell like Gifts.   

I see See Beyond similarly.  It's a developmental card.   It allows you to reduce opening hand variance, which is at an all time high due to 1) the restriction of Brainstorm, and 2) the density of restricted cards in decks these days.   It allows you to keep land lite or land heavy hands and shape them into the hand of your chocie, just as Brainstorm did.    It also allows you to adjust for matchups, like Scroll did.   

I think the key point is development.  See Beyond is a great development card.  Impulse is closer to a tutor than a development card. 

This makes enough sense that I'm going to try it out, particularly the last 3 sentences.  Impulse is better to draw that one card in your deck that saves your butt.  It's more like a tutor.  However if your hand is sort of whatever, you can See Beyond to increase the general quality of your cards.  I think my major problem with it is the one that's been brought up again and again, sorcery speed. 

[Smmenen]

See Beyond allows you to shape your hand far more than Impulse because Impulse only puts a card into your hand.

This is what I loved so much about Merchant Scroll.   It wasn't only an offensive and defensive card, but it was a great developmental card.  In the early game, you fired off Ancestral or protected yourself with Force.  In the late game you got countermagic or a big game ending spell like Gifts.   

I see See Beyond similarly.  It's a developmental card.   It allows you to reduce opening hand variance, which is at an all time high due to 1) the restriction of Brainstorm, and 2) the density of restricted cards in decks these days.   It allows you to keep land lite or land heavy hands and shape them into the hand of your chocie, just as Brainstorm did.    It also allows you to adjust for matchups, like Scroll did.   

I think the key point is development.  See Beyond is a great development card.  Impulse is closer to a tutor than a development card. 

This makes enough sense that I'm going to try it out, particularly the last 3 sentences.  Impulse is better to draw that one card in your deck that saves your butt.  It's more like a tutor.  However if your hand is sort of whatever, you can See Beyond to increase the general quality of your cards.  I think my major problem with it is the one that's been brought up again and again, sorcery speed. 

Merchant Scroll and Night's Whisper are both sorceries.  The same arguments were raised about Merchant Scroll. 

[honestabe]

Comparing See Beyond to Impulse is like comparing Dark Confidant to Tarmogoyf. 

See Beyond and Impulse are "Draw Spells", Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf are both creatures; but they do different things.  See beyond is used to sculpt your hand, while impulse is more or less a mini-tutor.  Granted neither of them net you a card, See Beyond does offer virtual card advantage by turning some piece of shit into your hand into something good (or at the very least, something that sucks less).  I've been using See Beyond as a 3-of in Oath, and have been completely loving it so far.  IDK if it will be good in other archtypes, but it's definitly solid ion Oath

[Evenpence]

Comparing See Beyond to Impulse is like comparing Dark Confidant to Tarmogoyf. 

See Beyond and Impulse are "Draw Spells", Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf are both creatures; but they do different things.  See beyond is used to sculpt your hand, while impulse is more or less a mini-tutor.  Granted neither of them net you a card, See Beyond does offer virtual card advantage by turning some piece of shit into your hand into something good (or at the very least, something that sucks less).  I've been using See Beyond as a 3-of in Oath, and have been completely loving it so far.  IDK if it will be good in other archtypes, but it's definitly solid ion Oath

I don't buy this argument.  Impulse is not a 'mini-tutor.'  Merchant Scroll is a mini-tutor.  Merchant Scroll is heads and tails better than any unrestricted card we're discussing here.

Impulse can be considered a development card as well.  Impulse can be compared to See Beyond and it can be seen to be better than See Beyond in most circumstances (as I've illustrated above).  If we're looking to put a 1U card in our deck that allows us to develop faster, I would rather take the one that digs four deep and is instant speed.

In Steve's hands above, I illustrated how Impulse could be considered better than See Beyond in both examples.  There are tons of other examples I could provide where Impulse is better than See Beyond or See Beyond is better than Impulse.

The key statistic that is going to matter isn't an inexpressible quality of shuffling a semi-unneeeded card from your hand into your library (unless you're playing Oath).  It's going to be what matters more often.

Impulse lets you see two extra cards.  At instant speed.  See Beyond has the possibility of shuffling away terrible cards or semi-unnecessary cards and possibly drawing two exceptional cards.

If you just happen to have a dead card in hand and See Beyond draws you into the nuttiness, it's still not necessarily better than Impulse (although the vast majority of the time, it will be better).  See Beyond has anti-synergy with counterspells, particularly Mana Drain.

My posts TL;DR:

See Beyond is better than Night's Whisper.
Impulse will be better than See Beyond the vast majority of the time in non-Oath decks.

[Meddling Mike]

Merchant Scroll and Night's Whisper are both sorceries.  The same arguments were raised about Merchant Scroll. 

First off, just wanted to say that it's a fair point that maybe my phrasing where I lump everything into "relevant" and "irrelevant" cards doesn't properly account for the cards that aren't irrelevant but not optimal. That said, I think the effects generated by Merchant Scroll is much greater than the effect of See Beyond, which makes it worth tapping mana main phase for it. The Night's Whisper is a bit closer to the mark, but it's worth noting the lack of play that Night's Whisper sees in the current format.

[Smmenen]

Merchant Scroll and Night's Whisper are both sorceries.  The same arguments were raised about Merchant Scroll. 

First off, just wanted to say that it's a fair point that maybe my phrasing where I lump everything into "relevant" and "irrelevant" cards doesn't properly account for the cards that aren't irrelevant but not optimal. That said, I think the effects generated by Merchant Scroll is much greater than the effect of See Beyond, which makes it worth tapping mana main phase for it. The Night's Whisper is a bit closer to the mark, but it's worth noting the lack of play that Night's Whisper sees in the current format.

This is a good point -- that NW sees no play currently.  But I think that this fact is more than 90% attributable to the fact that I have stated before: that NW is bad because it forces you to fetch a dual land on turn one.   A TON of people played NW post Thirst restriction at the ICBM P9 tournaments, and Fish romped the field.   

NW is even riskier today in an environment with Lodestone Golem decks.   

See Beyond does not have this drawback, and it's why I think that it will be awesome.   In some ways, actually See Beyond is a better developmental card than Scroll, cause you don't have to wait a turn to draw cards.   

Just noting that when I first proposed a 4 Scroll deck (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=23618.0 ) one of the main criticisms was that Scroll is a sorcery and interferes with the use of Drain.   In time, that concern was proven unwarranted.

I think the key to See Beyond is:

1) It's use as a game/board developer - it's a strong developmental card.
2) The fact that it reduces hand/card variance and makes more opening hands keepable in a wider range of matchups
3) Vintage decks often have -- because of Brainstorms restriction and because of the critical mass of restricted spells -- alot of singletons and either completely dead or situationally dead cards, and this card directly addresses that, as Brainstorm once did. 

I think See Beyond is going to be better the greater your deck's variance, and I'll be testing 1-2 in TPS immediately.   I would also test 4 in Oath. 

[InfectedMushroom]

I also plan on testing See Beyond much more. I have a rough decklist and I will be sleeving it up this week.

One other point is the synergy with Sensei's Divining Top. The more shuffle effects a deck has, the better Top becomes. This card definitely has potential.