[Premium Article] Eldrazi in Eternal: A Vintage Set Review

[Doomsday]

I think See Beyond is going to be better the greater your deck's variance, and I'll be testing 1-2 in TPS immediately.

-1 Fact or Fiction, -1 ???

[Killane]

I think See Beyond is going to be better the greater your deck's variance, and I'll be testing 1-2 in TPS immediately.

-1 Fact or Fiction, -1 ???

In a Fish/MUD/Dredge meta, Misdirection is very marginal. I've been testing this and have been pleased with results so far - yes stalign Ancestal is great... blah blah blah but the extra utility added by having Pseudo brainstorms is better IMHO.

Is this card better than Ponder in Oath? In other decks? If we're talking Pseudo BS, than maybe the Ponder comparision should be made.

[Nehptis]

Is this card better than Ponder in Oath? In other decks? If we're talking Pseudo BS, than maybe the Ponder comparision should be made.

The jury will be out for a while on whether See will make the cut in non-Oath decks.  I think it will as a 1 or 2 of.  Library / Hand manipulation with a shuffle effect is a powerful Vintage tool at the right CC.

But, for Oath decks, the question becomes should the build focus on the See beyonds (4 of) and forego the recent strategy of using Show and Tell?  I say YES.  See Beyond is never a dead card.  And IMO, the best "reasonable" answer to the Restriction of BS that Oath players could have asked for.

The Sorcery type is a downer and 1U instead of U is, too.  But, look at the silver lining, at least See beyond avoids COTV at 1!!!

[Phele]

The Sorcery type is a downer and 1U instead of U is, too.  But, look at the silver lining, at least See beyond avoids COTV at 1!!!

I think, Oath fears nothing more than Chalice at 2, where See falls right under.

This might have uses in Oath but Sorcer is more than a big downer. Recent Oath lists are already full of sorcery speed effects (Oath itself, Planeswalkers, Restricted Goodies).

[Tha Gunslinga]

I know the card is at least decent in Oath, but what am I supposed to cut from the deck?  Everything in it is perfect.

[Nehptis]

I know the card is at least decent in Oath, but what am I supposed to cut from the deck?  Everything in it is perfect.

Based on your recent tourney report and list, I'd have to agree that you cut nothing!  But, if your list keeps winning then in a few months you'll have 3 open spots to fill once the DCI Restricts Oath!

Seriously though..... I think this dilemma is what makes Vintage the most intriguing format. 

Although more close in function to NW and Impulse, I think See Beyond is going to take the same path to glory as Ponder.  Meaning mostly a luke warm coming out party, followed by moderate to heavy usage as a 2-3 of in U decks.  I can't imagine that See Beyond would ever have the same fate as Ponder.  But, I would have never predicted Ponder's restriction either!

[nataz]

thats not how I remember ponder. By the end blue decks were starting 4x ponder, 4x brainstorm.

[Cyberpunker]

But, for Oath decks, the question becomes should the build focus on the See beyonds (4 of) and forego the recent strategy of using Show and Tell?  I say YES.  See Beyond is never a dead card.  And IMO, the best "reasonable" answer to the Restriction of BS that Oath players could have asked for.

I don't understand why...

1. Put your creature back in your library so you can Oath it again. Waste a turn and 2 mana casting this spell. Oath your next turn. Attack 3 turns later.
2. Put your creature into play. Attack next turn. It can be dangerous vs mirror, but you are playing a card game. Go for it.

See Beyond may never a dead card, but it is never a powerful card either.

Btw it is important to note that Show and Tell is useful in the Gifts pile, as a tutor target, and you can keep your creature hands.

[honestabe]

I've been testing See Beyond more, and it's still very very good.  Like Steve said, it allows you to keep hands that you previously could not.  For instance, just last game, on a mulligan to 6, my grip was

Misty Rainforest
Misty Rainforest
Thoughtseize
See Beyond
Island
Forbidden Orchard

If See Beyond was just about anything else, this hand is a mulligan, but like brainstorm, See Beyond allows you to sculpt your hand, and keep marginal ones

[DubDub]

LaPille's article today mentions See Beyond, and he says that it was initially different (and that that card may someday see print); relevant text:

See Beyond began life as a different card-drawing spell. I liked what it started as, and I'm not going to tell you what it was because I think we might print it someday. However, that card sparked the following conversation.

AF 12/17: I like this; I'd like "draw 2, shuffle 1 back in" more.
MJG 2/12/2009: The time charge for the reshuffle seems too much for this card. I'd rather the card be discard or put on the bottom.
TML 2/27/2009: MT suggested U draw 2, put one on top. I would enjoy that.
MP 3/6: I like MT's suggestion, also if we keep this it should be put on bottom not shuffle.
AF 3/11: The point of this was "I drew a 14 mana guy, let me hide him for later and get something else." Discard/put on top/put on bottom don't accomplish that as well.
MR 4/13/09: While we should crack down on unnecessary shuffling, I agree with Aaron that some shuffling is okay.

We are cautious about the amount of shuffling we put into Magic. Moments in which nothing happens for a while slow down games; video games try to minimize load times, and we do the same thing by only including shuffling when the card really wants it. In the case of the Zendikar "fetch lands," we knew that players had been clamoring for them for years and that they interacted well with landfall cards. Here, Aaron explains perfectly why the card needs to shuffle: you're just putting the card away for later.

From here.

Edit: There's a poll at the bottom of that article where I voted for Rebound, as I think that's the most potentially interesting mechanic for Vintage.

[Midknight]

Off the subject alittle bit, but can someone tell me when this set becomes tourament legal. Im thinking its May first, but not sure.

[DubDub]

Off the subject alittle bit, but can someone tell me when this set becomes tourament legal. Im thinking its May first, but not sure.

It's legal for constructed as of today, since release events were yesterday and today.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I just played in a tournament at Blue Bell PA. I was playing oath with 4 see beyond and it was insane ALLLLLLL DAYYYYYY!!!!!! Fixing hands, making ok hands keepable, and shuffling fatties back from my hand. This card is way underrated, and most likely not tested enough for ppl to develop a true understanding of it.

The decklists should be posted soon for the tournament...SEE BEYOND OATH!

p.s. I lost to dredge in top 8...gay but shit happens

[Phele]

I just played in a tournament at Blue Bell PA. I was playing oath with 4 see beyond and it was insane ALLLLLLL DAYYYYYY!!!!!! Fixing hands, making ok hands keepable, and shuffling fatties back from my hand. This card is way underrated, and most likely not tested enough for ppl to develop a true understanding of it.

I have tested See Beyond quite a bit and I would say you make too much out of it. It is definately not insane, it is okay. It has its uses in Oath as people tend to play too many dead cards in the most recent decklists. But as a four of you probably cut cards like Ponder, Senseis Top, Thirst ... for it and all of them are more powerfull than See Beyond overall. So See Beyond might help to make Oath more consistant but in the same moment it makes Oath less broken.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I just played in a tournament at Blue Bell PA. I was playing oath with 4 see beyond and it was insane ALLLLLLL DAYYYYYY!!!!!! Fixing hands, making ok hands keepable, and shuffling fatties back from my hand. This card is way underrated, and most likely not tested enough for ppl to develop a true understanding of it.

I have tested See Beyond quite a bit and I would say you make too much out of it. It is definately not insane, it is okay. It has its uses in Oath as people tend to play too many dead cards in the most recent decklists. But as a four of you probably cut cards like Ponder, Senseis Top, Thirst ... for it and all of them are more powerfull than See Beyond overall. So See Beyond might help to make Oath more consistant but in the same moment it makes Oath less broken.

Your wrong....it makes oath much better....and yes i did cut top and thirst....top is weak in a null rod meta, and i dont like thirst in oath to begin with.

[Sobolev]

I just played in a tournament at Blue Bell PA. I was playing oath with 4 see beyond and it was insane ALLLLLLL DAYYYYYY!!!!!! Fixing hands, making ok hands keepable, and shuffling fatties back from my hand. This card is way underrated, and most likely not tested enough for ppl to develop a true understanding of it.

I have tested See Beyond quite a bit and I would say you make too much out of it. It is definately not insane, it is okay. It has its uses in Oath as people tend to play too many dead cards in the most recent decklists. But as a four of you probably cut cards like Ponder, Senseis Top, Thirst ... for it and all of them are more powerfull than See Beyond overall. So See Beyond might help to make Oath more consistant but in the same moment it makes Oath less broken.

Your wrong....it makes oath much better....and yes i did cut top and thirst....top is weak in a null rod meta, and i dont like thirst in oath to begin with.

I agree with this dude, what is Thirst even doing in Oath.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I agree with this dude, what is Thirst even doing in Oath.

Well, usually it just draws me extra cards, but sometimes I pitch it to Force of Will.

[vassago]

I agree with this dude, what is Thirst even doing in Oath.

Well, usually it just draws me extra cards, but sometimes I pitch it to Force of Will.

I let mine sit in my hand as duress bait.   

[madmanmike25]

Thirst makes DSC a little better as the robot of choice since you discard it and it shuffles back ready to be Tinkered or Oathed into play.  Sphinx/Ink do not share this advantage.

Getting to see 3 new cards at instant speed is also pretty good on its own.

[Meddling Mike]

One of the biggest problems I have with See Beyond is that people seem to be cutting better cards for it in alot of cases. TFK is out of See Beyond's league.

Pros of TFK:
It's instant!
It penetrates one card deeper.
It's potentially card advantageous.

Pros of See Beyond:
It's cheaper.
It shuffles Iona/Terrastodon/Sphinx back in rather than discarding them.

I've been playing around with this card, it's not bad, maybe a little better than I initially anticipated, but still not amazing. The decklists are all pretty tight and it's hard to fit it in without cutting cards that I think are better. It's sort of a tough card to pass judgment on because the strength of the card relies entirely on how good the cards you get off it are and how bad your worst card is.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

One of the biggest problems I have with See Beyond is that people seem to be cutting better cards for it in alot of cases. TFK is out of See Beyond's league.

Pros of TFK:
It's instant!
It penetrates one card deeper.
It's potentially card advantageous.

Pros of See Beyond:
It's cheaper.
It shuffles Iona/Terrastodon/Sphinx back in rather than discarding them.

I've been playing around with this card, it's not bad, maybe a little better than I initially anticipated, but still not amazing. The decklists are all pretty tight and it's hard to fit it in without cutting cards that I think are better. It's sort of a tough card to pass judgment on because the strength of the card relies entirely on how good the cards you get off it are and how bad your worst card is.

7th Place: Josh Potucek playing "SEE BEYOND OATH!"

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Oath of Druids
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
4 See Beyond
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Rushing River
1 Tinker
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Strip Mine

SB:
3 Nature's Claim
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Rebuild
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Extirpate
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Bojuka Bog

This is the exact list i just got top 8 with and the bluebell meta game has been changing into a stax/mud and fish metagame of recent. I cut top from the deck due to the thought of infinate null rods around, i cut jace from the deck due to the slow tendencies of her. Vs shops u are VERYYY rarely gonna cast her, and vs noble fish they will have multiple guys out smashing her. I also opted for no pierces main and went with 4 dress effect package in case i would run  into control drain decks and or combo, and that was very nice as knowing more information in my opponents hand lead to game wins. Thirst for knowledge i can see being no more then ok in oath if you are playing DSC. But again i expected mud and fish to put a fast clock on me so sphinx was all around better. I think in oath in general thirst is just not that good, weather that is personal prefference of playstyle or what not. I just never liked the card every time i tested it. I was penetrating my opponents deeper into the ground with see beyond!
           Not to mention how many games i woud get a hand with like FOW, SEE BEYOND, OATH Target , KEY, MOX, LAND, LAND....see beyond makes this hand keepable. Or... MOX, SEE BEYOND, SEE BOYOND, LAND, LAND, LAND, THOUGHTSEIZE....at first glance this hand has alot of mana but see beyond has the potential to sculpt this into a really good hand. The card in my opinion makes the deck keep hands more consistantly, in my opinion it it like half brainstorm and half nights whisper. I am not lying when i said this card was insane, because IT WAS....

I beat 4 or 5c salvagers round 1, beat Steven Nowakowski with bob tps round 2, then i forget the name playing drain tendrils round 3, then ID, ID, to the top 8 loosing to dredge

Maybe this card is personal prefference or playstyle or what not, but i like the card ALOT in oath, people and critisize the card all they want, but i won a ton of games helped alot by that single card. And when i play oath this card will always be included. I like the card alot ppl can hate on it all they want I just dont feel it has had a fair chance to prove itself. I END MY CASE

[scifiantihero]

You said you expected to see a lot of fish/shops, but you didn't face any.  How was your build in testing against them?  Do you think your dredge hate was too light, or did your opponent just do well?

I think Jace is a dude.

Grats on T8ing.

[zeus-online]

I think see beyond will see play in the same manner as brainstorm...first people will be curious to see how it works and that'll make them add like 2 or something, then they find out it's pretty sweet and go up to 3 and then every blue combo/control deck will end up running 4 standard, and people looking weird at you if cut it.

There are lots of cards i could see being cut for see beyond...Ponder, sensei's top, thirst for knowledge, various planeswalkers (depends on the deck)

I wouldn't be surprised to see TPS start running the card, or maybe a new (Still weakened) PitchLong?

[Neonico]

IMO, The more brainstorm effect you run, the most effective jace is, because you can dig for it when needed, and putt it back when you don't need it. I wouldb't personnally cutt it, whatever the metagame looks like, especially playing 4 see beyond.

[nineisnoone]

I think see beyond will see play in the same manner as brainstorm...first people will be curious to see how it works and that'll make them add like 2 or something, then they find out it's pretty sweet and go up to 3 and then every blue combo/control deck will end up running 4 standard, and people looking weird at you if cut it.

I don't see it being nearly that good.  It might end up being better than Impulse/Strategic Planning, but it's not an automatic 4 of.  I could see it becoming an automatic 1 of due to the shuffle back ability though.

See Beyond might help to make Oath more consistant but in the same moment it makes Oath less broken.

That's pretty much my opinion on it.  It's a filler card.  Granted, it's probably one of the best filler cards out there.  But it's neither a bomb, nor is particularly efficient. 

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Just an anecdote regarding what nineisnoone has said:
Yesterday I played against an oath deck sporting 4 see beyonds:
The games went like this:
He casted loads of them and other hand-sculpting spells but made no card advantage.
I drew broken cards, resolved thirst for CA, etc. and won.
It really makes it more consistent, but less broken. 4 copies were too many for my opponent, as he admitted.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

You said you expected to see a lot of fish/shops, but you didn't face any.  How was your build in testing against them?  Do you think your dredge hate was too light, or did your opponent just do well?

I think Jace is a dude.

Grats on T8ing.

I did expect to see alot of fish and shops....there were a few...but the tournament only had 28 ppl i believe. And generally the blue bell tournaments are 30-60....and as of recent the fish and shops decks have been dominating the field. I felt very comfortable vs fish and shops, and not so much vs other blue decks. But when i started thinking about it more, sure i dont have alot of PURE card advantage vs the other blue decks but ultimately the see beyonds were sculpting my hands enough to beat the other blue decks anyway. I shud probably give credit to beating the other blue decks with the 4 duress effects main. That was an insane part of beating the blue decks i faced.

As far as to light on the dredge hate...i played bog on the sb to act as another mana source vs fish and shops, and it also hits dredge a little bit. Suprisingly bog helped me win a game vs bob tps as i played it nuking his thresh bc i knew he was holding cabal and about to go off, it was epicllly sick. I would cut archangel from the board and add another dredge hate for sure. I feel the big eldrazi and sphinx already beat fish and i opted to not run iona just because i felt like i was going to beat decks based on sculpting my hand and tearing theres apart with duress effects. I would play this exact deck again because i like it alot and i dont care what all the see beyond haters think....i will just beat them with it

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Just an anecdote regarding what nineisnoone has said:
Yesterday I played against an oath deck sporting 4 see beyonds:
The games went like this:
He casted loads of them and other hand-sculpting spells but made no card advantage.
I drew broken cards, resolved thirst for CA, etc. and won.
It really makes it more consistent, but less broken. 4 copies were too many for my opponent, as he admitted.

And i highly doubt he was playing 4 duress effects either ...so he wasnt taking ur broken cards from your hand

[nineisnoone]

Just an anecdote regarding what nineisnoone has said:
Yesterday I played against an oath deck sporting 4 see beyonds:
The games went like this:
He casted loads of them and other hand-sculpting spells but made no card advantage.
I drew broken cards, resolved thirst for CA, etc. and won.
It really makes it more consistent, but less broken. 4 copies were too many for my opponent, as he admitted.

And i highly doubt he was playing 4 duress effects either ...so he wasnt taking ur broken cards from your hand

I'm a huge fan of Duress, so I'd attribute your success to that.   

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

I did face some duress effects, but can't tell if he played 4.
Still, I had broken hands that couldn't be beaten with duresses. What he saw after duressing me just left him with the information that he couldn't do nothing basically.
I must admit that I had library and jace often. So that distorts the game a bit. (P.S: Jace is a mental. I mean, he's megalomaniac, isn't he. Once he's down, basically the only thing oath has is the elephant man. Stinkwell leviathan is untargetable as well, but too slow most of the time. I cut fact for now and run a second copy of jace, the superman in it's place atm. Have been happy for now. Because i have already lost games when fact resolved eot. I will someday lose a game where jace resolves, too, but that hasn't come up yet. /end salvation)

Anyway, I won't say that see beyond is bad, I do not have enough testing results yet. Duress certainly does seem good with it, as you can gain additional information about what to put back with SeeBeyond, or if you should even play it or need to leave mana open.
What does your disruption package look like? what do you complement the duresses with?