Is Encroach playable in Type 1?

[meadbert]

I am pretty sure the answer is Yes.

So I have a buddy who used to run Encroach in the main I hated playing against him.  The two decks I played at the time were Dredge and Meandeck Gifts.  Having Bazaar ripped out of your hand on the draw is horrendous and even with Gifts, any hand with only 1 blue source suddenly became extremely scary.  I ended up Forcing and Misdirecting a ton of these.

Even back then I thought Encroach was a decent sideboard card to maybe bring in only on the play.

Now it is better.  The first change is that the combination of Fatestitcher and Bloodghast mean that Dredge really loves its second land drop.  This is even more true post board.  Encroaching that Undiscovered Paradise can seriously slow down Dredge even on the draw.  On the play it Encroach remains amazing for stealing Bazaar before it is even activated.

Then post board against Dredge even on the draw you can Encroach their mana source if they played Bazaar or if they had turn 1 Mana land, Leyline Removal you can still Encroach Bazaar.

Against Oath and Tez and other such decks Encroach is still strong on the play.  Plenty of hands are kept with just 1 on color mana source.  Even hands with 2 lands might desperately want that second land.

TPS tends to run relatively land light so on the play you are likely to steal its only land.

There are fewer Misdirections around to today to turn Encroach against you.


Then there is Stax where ripping that Workshop out of their hand is huge on the play.


For all of these reason Encroach is almost universally good on the play and usually not terrible on the draw.


Where Encroach is weak is as a top deck in the late game, so Encroach would ideally work best in a deck with some Filter.  I wonder therefore if it could have synergy in a deck with Jace the Mindsculpters since it could be Brainstormed back in the late game when an opponent is unlikely to have a land in hand.

Thoughts?

[honestabe]

I know that in the Gush era, it was a good sideboard card on the play.  But, without any good, cheap card filter/draw, people just don't cheat on their mana bases like they used to.

[meadbert]

Not cheating on their mana bases makes Encroach worse on the play since they are less likely to have 1 land, but better on the draw since they are more likely to have a second land to steal.  Just pulling a land makes this a Sinkhole for  .

The right direction might just be what my buddy used to play which was Sui Black with Sinkholes and such.  An advantage for him was that even when Misdirected he might only have Swamps.

I really do not know a great home, but it seems like one should exist.  Would this work in Dark Times?

[Delha]

Not cheating on their mana bases makes Encroach worse on the play since they are less likely to have 1 land, but better on the draw since they are more likely to have a second land to steal.  Just pulling a land makes this a Sinkhole for  .

The right direction might just be what my buddy used to play which was Sui Black with Sinkholes and such.  An advantage for him was that even when Misdirected he might only have Swamps.

I really do not know a great home, but it seems like one should exist.  Would this work in Dark Times?

Maybe a BG hatebear deck? I was thinking full sets of Encroach, Waste, Sinkhole to hit mana, supplemented by mainboard Claims (and maybe Seals) and some discard, then Confidants and efficient beats.

I'd really want blue for FOW/Piece/etc, but have serious doubts about being able to support Sinkhole at that point, and the deck probably doesn't have a very good blue count for FoW. Trygon could be a cute add though.

[meadbert]

Another option might be something like Recoil or even Boomerang.

Boomerang lets you bounce a land then Encroach it.

Also, if you Recoil a needed land and they discard something else then you might be able to Encroach the land.

Both are blue and can thus pitch to Force.

[Sporkcore]

Encroach may be playable in a black based deck with maindeck Exirpates and Wastes. Wasteland + Extirpate makes the card better on the draw as you can then Encroach a dual land, then Extirpate it to keep them off a splash color and if they have 1 in play, you can waste it. Being able to Encroach and Extirpate Forbidden Orchards in the Oath match can really hurt the deck.

[Troy_Costisick]

Yeah, matched with Extirpate it might be good.  If it's going to be put in the main, most lands you see are going to be Fetchlands in non-Dredge decks.  With Encroach and Extirpate, you're really going to hurt them.

[AmbivalentDuck]

A concerted mana denial strategy (likely mono-black, likely ritual-fueled) with hexmages, dark depths, and Null Rods might be viable.  That said, it's purely proactive and still has issues with topdecked stupidity.

[Shock Wave]

Just pulling a land makes this a Sinkhole for  .

No, it does not. Casting Sinkhole on a land and attempting to remove a land from your opponent's hand are actually two completely different plays with vastly different implications.

[Razvan]

Just pulling a land makes this a Sinkhole for  .

No, it does not. Casting Sinkhole on a land and attempting to remove a land from your opponent's hand are actually two completely different plays with vastly different implications.

If nothing else as well, Sinkhole also kills basic lands, which is one of the main problems for most land-destruction tactics .

[Delha]

Just pulling a land makes this a Sinkhole for  .

No, it does not. Casting Sinkhole on a land and attempting to remove a land from your opponent's hand are actually two completely different plays with vastly different implications.

I think the analogy being made there was pretty clear: You're denying the opponent their land.

Your tone also seems to imply that you consider the discard approach to be strictly weaker. Taking a Bazaar/Shop/etc from their hand means they don't get even a single use out of it, which is not the case with Sinkhole. The distinction you're making will often work in favor of Encroach, not against.

[TopSecret]

I think Encroach would be good in a some kind of oldschool Land Destruction deck where you actually cast spells to kill lands individually, like Raze and Boom/Bust. Things like Stifle, Sink Hole, and Null Rod could also make appearances. I don't know if that deck would be any good, but Encroach would be one of the better cards in the deck. The problem is that you're not buying any tempo with Encroach since it doesn't eat their land drop. So in order for Encroach to be good, they either have to really need that specific land, or not have enough mana in general.

[LotusHead]

Now that I know what this card even is, I can read the thread and maybe participate.
At a glance, if you REALLY wanna play this, it must be played with Chalice of the Void and some awesome die rolling skills.

[Shock Wave]

Just pulling a land makes this a Sinkhole for  .

No, it does not. Casting Sinkhole on a land and attempting to remove a land from your opponent's hand are actually two completely different plays with vastly different implications.

I think the analogy being made there was pretty clear: You're denying the opponent their land.

Your tone also seems to imply that you consider the discard approach to be strictly weaker. Taking a Bazaar/Shop/etc from their hand means they don't get even a single use out of it, which is not the case with Sinkhole. The distinction you're making will often work in favor of Encroach, not against.

The analogy being made was clear to me as well; resolving Encroach is analogous to playing Sinkhole. I submit that it is an incorrect analogy, because the implication of both spells is not the same.

I don't think the discard approach is necessarily weaker. I think it is a different approach that has strengths and weakness when compared to Sinkhole, but they do not have the same effect.

I think Encroach is a rather weak and narrow card. I can see situations where it would be very strong, but generally speaking, it does not have a large number of useful applications. My point was that it is very different from Sinkhole, regardless of whether it is better or worse in the context of this thread is irrelevant. They are different spells that have a different impact on the game.

[meadbert]

Shock Wave raises a good point.  They are not the same.  Sinkhole allows your opponent to tap that land for mana, while Encroach does not.

[Killane]

however, sinkhole eats the land drop and can kill basics, which in turn makes your wastelands stronger, etc...

[Shock Wave]

Shock Wave raises a good point.  They are not the same.  Sinkhole allows your opponent to tap that land for mana, while Encroach does not.

Indeed, that is the one advantage that Encroach has over Sinkhole. However, in order to leverage that advantage, you almost certainly have to win the die roll. I can see boarding this in against Dredge, when you're guaranteed to be on the play, but otherwise, I can't see how anyone could reliably leverage this card's most useful application.

-shrug-. My $0.02.

[median]

Shock Wave raises a good point.  They are not the same.  Sinkhole allows your opponent to tap that land for mana, while Encroach does not.

Indeed, that is the one advantage that Encroach has over Sinkhole. However, in order to leverage that advantage, you almost certainly have to win the die roll. I can see boarding this in against Dredge, when you're guaranteed to be on the play, but otherwise, I can't see how anyone could reliably leverage this card's most useful application.

-shrug-. My $0.02.

I think thats the reason Sinkhole isn't the most playable vintage card right now. The fact that you need to board into it to guarantee its application means that this will probably be dredge tech (at best) to me.

[meadbert]

Shock Wave raises a good point.  They are not the same.  Sinkhole allows your opponent to tap that land for mana, while Encroach does not.

Indeed, that is the one advantage that Encroach has over Sinkhole. However, in order to leverage that advantage, you almost certainly have to win the die roll. I can see boarding this in against Dredge, when you're guaranteed to be on the play, but otherwise, I can't see how anyone could reliably leverage this card's most useful application.

-shrug-. My $0.02.

I think thats the reason Sinkhole isn't the most playable vintage card right now. The fact that you need to board into it to guarantee its application means that this will probably be dredge tech (at best) to me.

If you are playing TPS on the play post board, would you rather open with Encroach or Duress?  I think the answer is Encroach, but Duress is certainly a better top deck so that does not mean Encroach is worth boarding in.

[Wagner]

Sinkhole costs BB, which means it can only be played reliably in a very small quantity of decks.

Also, with so many Fetch lands running around, Sinkhole cannot reliably stop a player from getting to 2-3 mana where it counts most.

Not sure Encroach is any better actually, but I would like to see it tested.

Also, as for boarding it against Dredge, I think there are a TON of better cards to have on turn 1 on the play against Dredge that cost 1. Pithing Needle comes to mind, as does Leyline. But yes, having a Bazaar discarted is probably safer than it being in play but useless, but still.

[Meddling Mike]

I don't like encroach as a sideboard card, seems like if I want a 1 mana solution to bazaar I'd rather go with pithing needle because it's colorless and does not require black mana to cast and because it stops any additional bazaars. There's also the fact that Pithing needle is effective at other points in the game and can be brought in for a number of matchups.

It's not a bad card, but I don't think it's good enough to see vintage play, too situational and not potent enough in the sideboard.

[TheShop]

If you encroach a land it's likely that they will just drop the other land in their hand.  At least with sink hole they lose one drop(which is preictible).  Enroach doesn't see any value until they miss a drop(less predictible). 

I think the card is weak unless you build a deck around it resolving...and I can think of several other 4 of's I would rather build around.

However,

4 rod
4 chalice
4 encroach
4 sink hole

is kinda cute.

[Grand Inquisitor]

The other implication of this card is that you're playing black-based mana denial.

This is the tail wagging the dog suicide black.  Not good.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The other implication of this card is that you're playing black-based mana denial.

This is the tail wagging the dog suicide black.  Not good.

As a sideboard card, this doesn't have to be true.  The issue is that it's just not good enough as a sideboard card that only helps when you go first.

[Cyberpunker]

Wouldn't encroach be a terrible topdeck? I understand that it is great if you can use it early and deny mana but if you draw it, you kind of just draw a black Peek.

[meadbert]

So I have been testing Encroach and it is a bitter narrower than I would have liked.
I tried it against Elephant Oath and here is what happened in 20 games.

1 Time it whiffed because the only land was a basic.
10 Times I would have rather had Duress because Oath had enough mana.
1 Time it was too close to tell.
2 Times it would have been devastating except it was Forced. (Once Duress would have been Forced to)
4 Times it was fairly devastating although Oath still had an on color source.
2 Times Oath was denied their only on color source.

It is not clear to me that Encroach is any better than Duress here and that is on the play with it in your opening hand.  As mentioned it is terrible as a top deck.

Against TPS, Stax and Dredge it should be better but so far I have been disappointed.

[Delha]

Isn't TPS one of the most likely decks where you hit with this and see only basics?

On the other hand, hitting a Dredge player after they keep at 3 would make me smile for days.

[TheBrassMan]

Ha! I smiled when I read this thread.  Encroach is responsible for some of my favorite vintage memories.  I ran Encroach in Gush sideboards before Painter was printed.  I remember two games in particular from those tournaments.  One in which I encroached a Stax player who had Bazaar, Gemstone, City of Brass, Sol Ring, Crop Rotation in his opening hand.  I hit his City of Brass, Force of Willed his Crop Rotation, Repealed his Sol Ring to bleed his last Gemstone Mine counter replaying it, which I Mana Drained, completely locking out his 5 mana source hand.  The other game was the top 8 match where I Encroached an opponent in the mirror, killing his hand of one land, 3 Brainstorm.  Encroach was a card I really loved, but it had much better positioning back then.  There were less basic lands, lower mana counts, people kept riskier draws on the strength of Brainstorm, and a Gush player without Fastbond would have lands in their hand later in the game, which prevented Encroach from being a dead card after turn one (a Gush player with Fastbond already won, so you don't worry about those games).  I think that with those changes in the format though, unfortunately, Encroach probably just doesn't make the cut anymore.