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Author Topic: G/W for 2010  (Read 34888 times)
Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2010, 02:25:59 pm »

It's a littler early to be gaming against Gush.  We really don't know which archetype will emerge (if any) as the best.  My initial guess would be Tyrant Oath or Doomsday.  But who knows?
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« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2010, 02:41:11 pm »

Personally, I think that deck is a little too heavy on land. 24 including the Strip/Wastelands feel like alot. Also, why not take advnatge of Noble Hierarch and at least the on-color Moxen, even if Null Rod shuts them down?
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« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2010, 11:26:41 pm »

4 Gaddock Teeg   
4 Kataki, War's Wage   
4 Knight of the Reliquary   
4 Qasali Pridemage   
4 Leonin Arbiter   
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Null Rod   

1 Black Lotus   
1 Lotus Petal   
1 Mox Emerald   
1 Mox Pearl   
3 Forest
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
4 Savannah Buy   
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

This is my take on G/W. I went for a four of, cut the junk build.

Whats here:

4 Teeg - You play this guy to stop FOW and top end bombs. The fact that he shuts down is gush is gravy. And its Gush. People will play it because that card is awesome.

4 Kataki - Basically Null Rod 5-8, as it stops artifact mana from doing anything. Helps the shop match up.

4 Knight - Your engine. Gets wastes, then draws cards, and then finishes the game.

4 Pridemage - 2 mana 3/3 and targeted removal.

4 Leonin Arbiter - An absolute beating on turn one. Works really well with the mana denial aspect of the deck and makes top deck tutors absolutely worthless (even if they pay). You might be asking, isn't this terrible with knight? No. Knight is a beating with 13 lands in the deck that can be sacrificed. And because you have so many two drops, searching mid game to draw cards or whatever is easy. 

4 Goyf - Honestly if there was one more good disruptive bear out there, this might be gone. You just don't have that diverse of a card pool and goyf isn't that big as a result.

4 Swords - Eats bobs and machines. My game plan against shops is to use spot removal until knight is too big for them to deal with.

4 Null Rod - Any anti Rod talk is crazy. This slows down all powered decks to your level (and none of them run your two drops). Also it makes it so you can compete against cards like trike and any equipment imaginable.

Mana - Lotus petal b/c I don't play with anyone that plays goblin welder. No spirit guides because blowing cards for a slight advantage is a bad idea with a deck that goldfishes like turn seven. I don't run a knight toolbox because drawing those cards (like steppe or whatever) is card disadvantage. No access to ancestral means this deck, or any like it, can't really afford to sputter.

What isn't here:

Canonist - With so few instants, canonist hurts you more than them. Not to mention a total blank against shops. Yeah that card is bad.

Mindcensor - Now this is a card I love more than anything. But arbiter is 1 cheaper. You really can't have too many 2 drops. Maybe I could include both and cut goyf, but that seems wrong.

Noble Hierarch - Again, with so many 2 drops, going from one to three doesn't do anything. Also, because you normally have more than one creature out, the exalted doesn't do much either.

Lotus Cobra - I guess it's good in a combo deck that can use the mana, but it doesn't fit in this deck. You would never want to play this turn two and not have any disruption in play until turn three. So you probably want to play this around turn five, but by then your hand should be near empty.

Jotun Grunt - With Goyf and knight, grunt really hurts you. And again, I really had throwing away cards. I haven't tried it, but I just think it wouldn't be so great.

Any thoughts or ideas?
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madmanmike25
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« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2010, 08:48:10 am »

The last 2 lists posted look alright, except I think Noble Heirarch is underestimated against the Shop matchup.

It's not really about 'getting to three mana' as much as it can be about getting to two mana with Sphere effects.  It's also another permanent to tap to Tangle Wire.  Trust me, as a heavy and long time Shop player and as dumb as it sounds, a turn 1 Noble Heirarch is a good start against a deck that tries to limit your mana.  Keep in mind that you won't always see any jewelery or a ESG to get two mana turn 1.

Well, speaking of 3mana, what about Mangara of Corondor?  Probably too hefty for the 1/1 body but can take out anything, even a land.

Another costly card is 8 1/2 Tails.  Three mana to perma-block a Lodestone or swing freely seems ok.  Anyone done any testing with this?

You guys also must have no fear against Oath, or you must never play against it.  You do realize that you would have to find three Stp's while they have to find just one Oath?  Goyf or Knight really cant trump an Oath creature.  That's exactly why I ran True Believer maindeck.  I think the lowest I would go is 2 maindeck.

And yeah, Leonin Arbiter is going to be good.  I wonder if this set brings anything else to the table for G/W.
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« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2010, 09:47:06 am »

Too many 2cc cards. Spell snare and chalice at 2 are nasty against us.

I miss natue's claim, specially against chalice at 2 and oath, playing only with qasali is too narrow.

More than 2 kataki for the main is too much for me. Maybe 3 if meta is infested with mud, but you never want 2 of these (it's a legend) against any other deck. Similar with gaddock, I wouldn't play 4 maindeck.

I miss true believer in the maindeck. Against oath and tendrils it is really annoying, oath has to resolve tinker/show and tell in order to win, tendrils have more problems.

Maybe 2/3 living wish, and 1-of some creatures (gaddock, kataki, true believer, jotun) in the sideboard in order to tutor a little.


For the sideboard I would play choke (fish, drain decks),  wheel of sun and moon (a couple, dredge), ravenous trap (a couple more), serenity (oath, mud), jitte (fish, mud)...

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« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2010, 04:04:54 pm »

You guys also must have no fear against Oath, or you must never play against it.  You do realize that you would have to find three Stp's while they have to find just one Oath?  Goyf or Knight really cant trump an Oath creature.  That's exactly why I ran True Believer maindeck.  I think the lowest I would go is 2 maindeck.

Against Oath, 4 Nature's claim helps a lot. I don't like true believer at all. It doesn't do anything but stop Oath activations. Maybe stop intuition if they play that, but really you aren't doing much. If it was players cant be the target of spells and abilities, and shut off ancestral, then it would be an auto include. But as is, it has too narrow of a focus. Its not like you care about duress.

Even in the oath match up, I think believer isn't that good. Yes you hose their win condition, but you aren't hosing their strategy. It's like naming tendrils with meddling mage. Sure they can't win, but if they can storm to ten, they can bounce the mage. You play believer and not some other disruptive bear, Oath will just do its thing and win anyway.

Too many 2cc cards. Spell snare and chalice at 2 are nasty against us.
You can't build a deck that is impervious to every card. Too many blue cards loses to 8 blasts.dec or whatever. Chalice you can beat. Teeg stops it, natures claim is an out. Also with so much mana denial, you can get to 2 before they get to four. Yes turn one chalice at 2 hurts, but that still is one card, and a three card combo to get off turn one.

Diversifying your threats cc to get around spell snare is going to cost you WAY more games than having a low curve an being able to constantly pump out disruptive bears.

Quote
More than 2 kataki for the main is too much for me. Maybe 3 if meta is infested with mud, but you never want 2 of these (it's a legend) against any other deck. Similar with gaddock, I wouldn't play 4 maindeck.

Kataki is great mana disruption. Arbiter and Knight stop lands, Kataki and Null Rod stop artifact mana. I play four because with such little draw, I want to maximize my chances of getting it into play turn two. Same with Teeg. This also the reason why I don't play three and a random Jotun Grunt. I want all my guys to be good turn two no matter what.

Yes it sucks to draw 3 katakis in a row, but again, this is one of those things where the consistency will win you more games than overloading on legends will lose you the game.

Quote
Maybe 2/3 living wish, and 1-of some creatures (gaddock, kataki, true believer, jotun) in the sideboard in order to tutor a little.

I hate wish packages because they dilute your deck and your sideboard. Plus all of the creatures in this deck are unplayable at four mana. Finally, wish is extra bad against spheres. I will admit it is cute with arbiter though.

Quote

I miss natue's claim, specially against chalice at 2 and oath, playing only with qasali is too narrow...

For the sideboard I would play choke (fish, drain decks),  wheel of sun and moon (a couple, dredge), ravenous trap (a couple more), serenity (oath, mud), jitte (fish, mud)...

I didn't post a sideboard because that depends on your meta. What I have now:
4 Nature's Claim
4 Path to Exile
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Wheel of sun and Moon

I don't like bringing in equipment against fish decks because that makes game three awkward. So I just overload on efficient removal and use knight to win.

Path is also great against shop aggro, as is nature's claim. 16 removal spells makes it pretty hard to get an awkward draw.

Also, I have switched out Tarmogoyf for loam lion. I know sacrilege. But goyf was constantly a 1/2 and 2/3 at best. Punishing your opponent with 2 extra damage a turn isn't really that good a trade for them playing instants and sorceries. Also lion gives a turn one and three play w/o mox, so thats nice. Its not like leaving up swords is good in a format with no haste creatures. Also, I wanted more cats in the deck.
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xouman
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« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2010, 03:05:33 am »

I won't play loam lion :/ It is only a beater, I would prefer vexing susher, or true believer properly. True believer does not only shut oath, but also tendrils and hurkyl's, so having a null rod plus believer makes you well positioned against drain decks (outside tinker robot).

But of course, it's only my opinion Smile

Choke does not convince you for the SB?
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« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2010, 07:26:41 pm »

For all the props Believer gets for shutting down win conditions, I think the best part about him and his friend Leyline of Sanctity is that they turn off Thoughtseize.  To this day it baffles me why Wizards would print a Vintage staple that makes life hard for creatures.  Argh. 
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« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2011, 11:16:26 pm »

Sorry to necro this thread, but Iíve been brewing a G/W deck for some time, and feel Iíve hit on a way to make it competitive.  Iím hoping that people interested in this deck find the sideboard stategy helpful.  Hereís the deck as I played it, and changes Iím planning:

Artifacts:
1 Lotus
2 Mox (Pearl/Emerald)
4 Null Rod
2 Thorn of Amethyst (+1  Swords/+1 Claim)

Creatures:
4 Teeg
2 True Believer
2 Kataki, Warís Wage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quasali Pridemage
4 Leonin Arbiter (will switch 1-2 for Aven Mindcensor)

Instants:
2 Swords to plowshares (need 3)
2 Natureís Claim (need 3)

Lands:
4 Horizon Canopy (worked extremely well for draw)
4 Savannah
5 Fetchlands (3 Heath, 2 Flooded Strand)
2 Plains
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter (likely switch to Maze of Ith)
1 Karakas (combat tricks with Teeg, not dead since it makes white)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

SB
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Tormodís Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Serenity
2 Crucible of Worlds

I ran it for the first time competitively at the weekly Scholarís vintage tournament, and despite going 0-2, was encouraged by its competitiveness despite my ridiculously poor play (seriously, I completely forgot ĎTeeg was in play when my opponent cast force on my Kataki, which would have sealed up the lock Ė moron).  I faced Dredge and a Salvagers variant that featured Jace, Tezz, Vault/Key, Tinker/Bot.  The obvious question is Ė why would you be encouraged by an 0-2 drop?  Here goes.

Round 1 v. Dredge
Game 1 Ė He was playing a fatestitcher dredge.  He won the roll and kept his 7.  I drew no land destruction and he managed a turn 2 flame-kin win on the back of a fatestitcher based re-use of bazaar.  Iíve played fatestitcher several times and been impressed with the game 1 explosiveness of this build.  I feel it lacks consistency, however.

Game 2 Ė +3 Relic/Tormodís +2 Enlightened Tutor, +3 Wheel of Sun and Moon, - 4 Null Rods, -2 Claim, -2 Kataki.  I open a grip with Wasteland, Relic, Tormodís and Enlightened Tutor.  He opens with bazaar and gets some dredgers  in the yard.  With both relic and tormodís in play, I tutor for wheel.  Drawing into Pridemage and Knight (which finished as an 8/8) was enough to win, although I had to pop tormodís early and relic cleared my yard as well shrinking my knight.

Game 3 Ė I keep my 7 with wasteland.  He keeps his 7 and plays bazaar.  I waste but he had the 2nd bazaar in his opener.  Iím still in it because he fails to hit much action in the first few bazaar activations.  My key play error Ė he gets ichorid into play with 3 bridges in the yard.  I didnít swords ichy during his draw step and he was able to get 3 zombies.  We went to turns and he finished me in turn 3.  If I had played swords I would have at least managed a draw, and perhaps the win.

This match was lost by my play error and against a dredge player who barely had to mulligan.  The sideboard was pitch perfect, allowing me to drop multiple pieces of hate and tutoring for other options.

Round 2 v. Salvager/Jace/Tezz/Tinker/Key/Vault deck (Bomberman?)
Game 1 Ė I draw all 4 of my null rods.  Still, theyíre fairly effective since my wastes/strip have him  locked down with a board full of artifact mana, top, and key.   My major play error in this match was attacking with a 3/3 knight into his 2/2 trinket mage with an active nihil spellbomb on board prior to the null rod flood.  I could have locked him out by tutoring up land destruction.  I also realized that leonine arbiterís search cost only needs to be paid once in the turn, making me think about bringing back a couple of mindcensors.  Mana was no trouble in any of the matches.  I lose when he hurkylís my null rods and gets vault/key online.

Game 2: +2 canonist, +2 tutor +3 serenity; -2 true believer, -1 ghost quarter (he had basics), -2 knight, -1 arbiter, -1 teeg
 Opponent gets 1st turn tinker to myr battlesphere.  I claim the sphere, he forces.  I swords the sphere and am facing down the 4 myr tokens, following by a trinket mage.  I get enough blockers on line to stay alive but I attack with an exalted teeg and he takes back a double block with his remaining 2 myr tokens (stupid of me to say anything before assigning damage).  I lay a kataki which he forces.  I forget about Teeg until several turns later, during which I tutored for a serenity (should have grabbed rob) which barely broke even.  I later land a thorn of amethyst but my board gets wiped by engineered explosives.  I canít overcome my play errors and end up losing to tezz ultimate.

These results lead me to believe that tight play could allow success with the deck.  The sideboard was awesome.  Enlightened tutor allows you to expand your hate options.  I just need practice tutoring for the right pieces.  I really wanted to face a workshop deck this time.  I think serenity, claim, pridemage, and crucible will shine in the matchup.  Iíll continue to post my results here if thereís any interest.  Of note, there was one other G/W deck there, but I donít know what flavor and how he did.
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« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2011, 12:28:43 am »

Sorry to necro this thread, but Iíve been brewing a G/W deck for some time, and feel Iíve hit on a way to make it competitive.  Iím hoping that people interested in this deck find the sideboard stategy helpful.  Hereís the deck as I played it, and changes Iím planning:

Artifacts:
1 Lotus
2 Mox (Pearl/Emerald)
4 Null Rod
2 Thorn of Amethyst (+1  Swords/+1 Claim)

Creatures:
4 Teeg
2 True Believer
2 Kataki, Warís Wage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Quasali Pridemage
4 Leonin Arbiter (will switch 1-2 for Aven Mindcensor)

Instants:
2 Swords to plowshares (need 3)
2 Natureís Claim (need 3)

Lands:
4 Horizon Canopy (worked extremely well for draw)
4 Savannah
5 Fetchlands (3 Heath, 2 Flooded Strand)
2 Plains
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter (likely switch to Maze of Ith)
1 Karakas (combat tricks with Teeg, not dead since it makes white)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

SB
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Tormodís Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Serenity
2 Crucible of Worlds

I ran it for the first time competitively at the weekly Scholarís vintage tournament, and despite going 0-2, was encouraged by its competitiveness despite my ridiculously poor play (seriously, I completely forgot ĎTeeg was in play when my opponent cast force on my Kataki, which would have sealed up the lock Ė moron).  I faced Dredge and a Salvagers variant that featured Jace, Tezz, Vault/Key, Tinker/Bot.  The obvious question is Ė why would you be encouraged by an 0-2 drop?  Here goes.

Round 1 v. Dredge
Game 1 Ė He was playing a fatestitcher dredge.  He won the roll and kept his 7.  I drew no land destruction and he managed a turn 2 flame-kin win on the back of a fatestitcher based re-use of bazaar.  Iíve played fatestitcher several times and been impressed with the game 1 explosiveness of this build.  I feel it lacks consistency, however.

Game 2 Ė +3 Relic/Tormodís +2 Enlightened Tutor, +3 Wheel of Sun and Moon, - 4 Null Rods, -2 Claim, -2 Kataki.  I open a grip with Wasteland, Relic, Tormodís and Enlightened Tutor.  He opens with bazaar and gets some dredgers  in the yard.  With both relic and tormodís in play, I tutor for wheel.  Drawing into Pridemage and Knight (which finished as an 8/8) was enough to win, although I had to pop tormodís early and relic cleared my yard as well shrinking my knight.

Game 3 Ė I keep my 7 with wasteland.  He keeps his 7 and plays bazaar.  I waste but he had the 2nd bazaar in his opener.  Iím still in it because he fails to hit much action in the first few bazaar activations.  My key play error Ė he gets ichorid into play with 3 bridges in the yard.  I didnít swords ichy during his draw step and he was able to get 3 zombies.  We went to turns and he finished me in turn 3.  If I had played swords I would have at least managed a draw, and perhaps the win.

This match was lost by my play error and against a dredge player who barely had to mulligan.  The sideboard was pitch perfect, allowing me to drop multiple pieces of hate and tutoring for other options.

Round 2 v. Salvager/Jace/Tezz/Tinker/Key/Vault deck (Bomberman?)
Game 1 Ė I draw all 4 of my null rods.  Still, theyíre fairly effective since my wastes/strip have him  locked down with a board full of artifact mana, top, and key.   My major play error in this match was attacking with a 3/3 knight into his 2/2 trinket mage with an active nihil spellbomb on board prior to the null rod flood.  I could have locked him out by tutoring up land destruction.  I also realized that leonine arbiterís search cost only needs to be paid once in the turn, making me think about bringing back a couple of mindcensors.  Mana was no trouble in any of the matches.  I lose when he hurkylís my null rods and gets vault/key online.

Game 2: +2 canonist, +2 tutor +3 serenity; -2 true believer, -1 ghost quarter (he had basics), -2 knight, -1 arbiter, -1 teeg
 Opponent gets 1st turn tinker to myr battlesphere.  I claim the sphere, he forces.  I swords the sphere and am facing down the 4 myr tokens, following by a trinket mage.  I get enough blockers on line to stay alive but I attack with an exalted teeg and he takes back a double block with his remaining 2 myr tokens (stupid of me to say anything before assigning damage).  I lay a kataki which he forces.  I forget about Teeg until several turns later, during which I tutored for a serenity (should have grabbed rob) which barely broke even.  I later land a thorn of amethyst but my board gets wiped by engineered explosives.  I canít overcome my play errors and end up losing to tezz ultimate.

These results lead me to believe that tight play could allow success with the deck.  The sideboard was awesome.  Enlightened tutor allows you to expand your hate options.  I just need practice tutoring for the right pieces.  I really wanted to face a workshop deck this time.  I think serenity, claim, pridemage, and crucible will shine in the matchup.  Iíll continue to post my results here if thereís any interest.  Of note, there was one other G/W deck there, but I donít know what flavor and how he did.


Your list is in no way revolutionary and actually I don't think it's all that good. Not to be a buzz-kill, but you didn't seem face any shops and I think your deck would scoop to them most of the time. Here's why:

You don't run Vial (only reliable way that I've found to play out dudes under spheres in a reasonable time)
You don't run 3 Kataki at least
You don't run 3-4 Ghost Quarter to couple with Kataki

Rod will work against Metalworker like a charm but will fold to Espresso builds (better than worker anyway in my mind.)

Not to sound harsh, but 1-for-1's like claim and plow alone are sorta poor against Shops, especially when they make it harder to race. If you want to take GW in a new direction make it more aggressive and able to put pressure on the opponent's resources. Also, don't clog the deck up with chaff like Knight of the Reliquary. I've tried the dude, and he's basically only good in the mirror. He doesn't belong IMO.

-Storm
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« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2011, 08:09:52 am »


Your list is in no way revolutionary and actually I don't think it's all that good. Not to be a buzz-kill, but you didn't seem face any shops and I think your deck would scoop to them most of the time. Here's why:

I agree with you on some points.  I never claimed that I revolutionized the deck.  The only new thing I presented was the sideboard strategy, which is flexible enough to bring in cards like Vial or Equipment.  MUD is 30% of the meta and posting amazing numbers.  I didn't face MUD, and that was the match-up I wanted to see most.  You may not like Metalworker, but it's posting the strongest results lately.  I think Vial is fools gold.  It does nothing until turn three and then, at best, it allows you to drop 2 creatures that turn.  It beats Chalice and Spheres, but not quickly enough.  Null Rod has an impact as soon as it hits.  MUD is more dependent on its artifact mana than most decks, and Rod gives you the tempo advantage you need to catch up.  Cards like Swords, Claim, and Pridemage do the same very cheaply, keeping you alive long enough in the face of Lodestone and Hellkite to stabilize and get the hate-bears or cards like Serenity into play.  You also, while criticizing one-for-one's argue for more Ghost Quarters, which are essentially card disadvantage against Blue decks which still comprise 30% of the field.  Why are 1-1 trades bad against a deck that has no draw (even less than G/W, since we at least have Canopy)? Check out the Noble Fish deck that came in 2nd in the Grudge match - how one-for-one trades do you see there?
 
It's not too difficult to add a Kataki and drop a True Believer.  Knight is there in place of Goyf.  He's Goyf's equal in combat but has an amazing utility feature that can yield a temporary strip-lock, fetch a maze or Kataki, again generating enough tempo advantage to go the distance.  If I hadn't been a bonehead and lost my knight in the second match I would have locked my opponent out of mana between knight and null rod and had a sufficient beater to finish the game quickly.
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« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2011, 08:13:22 am »

Storm speaks wisdom.  Against Shop decks, aggro decks have to look for card advantage.  That means cards like Mox Monkey, Ancient Drudge, Ingot Chewer, Hull Breech, Artifact Mutation, Rack and Ruin, Shattering Spree, Kataki, Crucible of Worlds, and Moon Effects.  Unfortunately, almost none of those fit into a G/W build.  That means right now, it's poorly positioned in the meta.  
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« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2011, 08:52:56 am »

G/W has quite a few options actually, but for some reason most G/W players rarely never use them; I'm referring to serenity, seeds of innocence, kataki, Caustic Wasps, and dust to dust. Also, with the new set you have leonin relic-warder and phyrexian revoker, both of which have many uses against stax.
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« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2011, 10:45:11 am »

Instead of slamming your list scipio I will propose another list. It has some of your card choices, but with some key differences.


GW

Land (21):
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
3 Forest
3 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
4 Aether Vial
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl

Artifact Creatures (3):
3 Phyrexian Revoker

Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Kataki, Warís Wage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

Instants
3 Natureís Claim
4 Path To Exile

SB
1 Natureís Claim
4 Ravenous Trap
1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1 Tormodís Crypt
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Phyrexian Revoker
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« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2011, 05:56:29 pm »

Hey Storm,

At a glance, your list is better against MUD.  Vial will dodge chalice and sphere effects.  An extra Kataki and Ghost Quarter will put more pressure on the mana-base.  Goyf is a decent clock but may not get much bigger than 4/5 (you'll put instants, lands, and creatures in the yard, and your claims will get opposing artifacts in the yard).  Path is better than swords against decks without basics - I think this is a really good suggestion.  But I don't see how it can beat a blue-control or combo deck, and even with the board, it's going to have a hard time with Ichorid.  Without maindeck Teeg you have little chance against any deck that plays force.  I think this highlights the trouble with Fish strategies right now.  They are basically hate decks that can prey on a clearly defined meta, but they suffer when the major tiers are quite different.  Workshop, Gush, Drain, and Oath strategies are too diverse, especially since so much SB space has to be set aside for Dredge.  The recent printings have really beefed up Workshop strategies to the detriment of Fish decks.  Hopefully we'll get some decent hatebears in the coming sets.

Anyway, can you explain why you like Samurai?  How would you use Revoker against an Espresso stax build?  Do you bring in Canonist against combo only, or do you think it has other applications. 
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« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2011, 11:13:36 pm »

Hey Storm,

At a glance, your list is better against MUD.  Vial will dodge chalice and sphere effects.  An extra Kataki and Ghost Quarter will put more pressure on the mana-base.  Goyf is a decent clock but may not get much bigger than 4/5 (you'll put instants, lands, and creatures in the yard, and your claims will get opposing artifacts in the yard).  Path is better than swords against decks without basics - I think this is a really good suggestion.  But I don't see how it can beat a blue-control or combo deck, and even with the board, it's going to have a hard time with Ichorid.  Without maindeck Teeg you have little chance against any deck that plays force.  I think this highlights the trouble with Fish strategies right now.  They are basically hate decks that can prey on a clearly defined meta, but they suffer when the major tiers are quite different.  Workshop, Gush, Drain, and Oath strategies are too diverse, especially since so much SB space has to be set aside for Dredge.  The recent printings have really beefed up Workshop strategies to the detriment of Fish decks.  Hopefully we'll get some decent hatebears in the coming sets.

Anyway, can you explain why you like Samurai?  How would you use Revoker against an Espresso stax build?  Do you bring in Canonist against combo only, or do you think it has other applications. 

Well Revoker is untested as yet, but the idea is that it is never dead (hits a mox and that can be huge when you also waste a land or have made them sac to kataki) and it can hit important cards like Metalworker, Jace, and Welder. It cannot hit Bazaar and that is a big negative, but I think the 2/1 body is key in leveraging it over Pithing Needle.

As to Samurai: I talked to a rules expert and he said to me that any permanent gets RFGed no matter what zone it came from. This makes Samurai excellent at stopping dredge because narco's never hit the yard and any creatures dredged into the yard from the library are RFGed. He is also amazing because he is a 2/2 body that trades with Lodestone for WW. That cannot be overstated.

As to the lack of blue hate I have to disagree a bit with your assessment. Sure, the lack of Null Rod is painful, but Vial has a way of getting around FoW last I heard. Arbiter plays fits on decks with heavy tutoring, and I have often found Gaddock Teeg to be underwhelming as he often doesn't stop your opponent from "just winning." They don't have to worry about YOUR FoW so they can just go for Vault/Key. Teeg is nice when you resolve him and stop a Jace from hitting, but usually he'll be forced if he was going to stop a Jace from being cast.

Canonist is actually a card I'm thinking of cutting, but it seems like Solid anti-Storm tech. The only alternative I'm considering is 4 Leyline Of Sanctity, but that would require SB space I'm not willing to make right now. Hmmmm. . .

Oh btw, Path is super important to run over STP IMO as the race issue comes up more than you might think and it can also be nice to chump with your own dude and then Path to develop your mana. I really like the card and think it should get the nod far more often than it does.

-Storm
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« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2011, 02:07:11 pm »

@Storm: Nice catch on samurai! I always thought it only affected permanents going to the graveyard from play, making it less than a true hate card against dredge. I'll have to complete the playset now!

I'm testing a loam list with mangara, karakas and the leonin/quarter/path package. It uses sakura-tribe scouts to nuke lands more effectively. It has been working fine in testing, but I'd like to take it to a tournament before posting the decklist. Such untraditional (weak?) card choices should be backed up with some kind of result.
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« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2011, 08:35:34 pm »

As to Samurai: I talked to a rules expert and he said to me that any permanent gets RFGed no matter what zone it came from. This makes Samurai excellent at stopping dredge because narco's never hit the yard and any creatures dredged into the yard from the library are RFGed. He is also amazing because he is a 2/2 body that trades with Lodestone for WW. That cannot be overstated.

Are you sure about this one? The comprehensive rules state the following:
110.1. A permanent is a card or token on the battlefield. A permanent remains on the battlefield
indefinitely. A card or token becomes a permanent as it enters the battlefield and it stops being a
permanent as itís moved to another zone by an effect or rule.

The bushido is still helpful against MUD, and he'll keep you from getting strip-locked.  It also prevents welder tricks, although I haven't seen mono-Red Stax in a while.  Against dredge, it will keep bridge from below from working and will make sure that ichorid is a one-hit wonder.  Not a bad card, but if it exiled like you suggest, it would be better than Leyline or Wheel.

I think I'll playtest Vial.  I've got a playset for my legacy merfolk deck, so it will be worth a try.  Problem is we'd have to move the discussion out of this forum!
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« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2011, 07:19:10 pm »

While playing GW for the past few years at Scholars weekly tournaments I've found my various lists are usually susceptible to Yawg Will blow outs.  Storms suggestion for Samurai would solve many of these problems.  Unfortunately I've always had permanents ruled in a very different manner.  Even have run Cannonist but there are just too many answers to artifacts/creatures out there.  Are there any creature answers out there that I'm not seeing that people have had good results with?

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« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2011, 03:24:31 pm »

I'm pretty sure that Samurai of the Pale Curtain does not exile cards that were not in play. Permanents are only permanents once they are on the battlefield.

Why is Revoker in there over Needle. Needle can at least name Bazaar.
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« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2011, 04:56:22 pm »

I've been playing vintage for 4 years now and G/w Haterade for a little bit over a year.  Most of you are looking at this deck in an incorrect angle of approach.  G/W should be designed as a "haterade" deck, or a deck that uses cards specifically desinged to be good against the big players in the metagame.  In vintage, the reason to play green/white is because we can utilize less powerful but efficient hate cards to disrupt and even lock out opponents.  The reason why haterade is viable in vintage is because most decks, especially the two most common decks (workshop decks, blue decks with force of will) generally speaking play 40+ of the same cards, and make up a vast majority of the meta, making it very easy to play specific hate cards.  This allows us to make a deck that has much hate for these decks, while devoting our sideboard to lesser matchups such as dredge, fish etc.  G/W needs to be able to pump out hate creatures on turn one, and not dilute our hate cards quality with cards only good in secondary matchups (such as Samurai of the pale Curtain, true believer,) as well as cards that do not disrupt our opponent as much as possible (Tarmogoyf, Noble Heirarch).  These cards are fine for your sideboard or even maindeck according to your local metagame, however we are haterade because as far as I'm concerned "aggro" does not exist in vintage.  We do not attack with creatures, we attack our opponents resource and strategy with the utilization of creatures, which in vintage are harder to deal with then other permanents or spells more often then not.  Vintage decks are very fast, and do much more broken things then casting a bear every turn, to combat this our deck in my opinion must have the full set of 5 moxen, lotus pedal, as well as ESG (more on her later).  The printing of blightsteel colossus is a big change to vintage, alot of decks tinker clocks will change from a 3 or even 4 turn clock to a 1 turn clock in most cases.  We can lock and disrupt an opponent for a long time, and most g/w decks are very good against vault/key as well as storm which means most decks will look to tinker you as the case with most fish decks.  It is very reasonable they will be able to resolve tinker, this means blightsteel collosus, which means we need several outs to that card.  This meta change in my opinion is very,very good for G/w, this is because the cards that are good against blightsteel are also very good against workshop aggro decks.  We can run 4 Leonin Relic Warder and 3 Swords in my deck and they can be awesome.  Anyway, here my with mirrodin besieged.
G/W Haterade:
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Leonin Relic Warder
3 Kataki
3 Cannonist
3 Gaddok Teeg
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Null Rod
3 Swords
2 Aura of Silence

1 BLack Lotus
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
5 Moxen
1 Lotus Pedal
4 Savannah
3 Temple Garden
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
2 Wastland
1 Strip mine

Sideboard:
4 Serenity
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Natures Claim
4 Leyline of Santity
1 Swords


Card Choices:
Leonin Arbiter: is awesome, it's usually what you want to cast turn one against blue decks.  It stops them from utilizing powerful tutors to find answers or to find their combos.  Most of these decks have a small land count and a high ratio of fetch lands, this guy is awesome against fetch lands and is very synergistic with the rest of your mana denial cards.  Also people do not know what he does.  Unfortunately, he is the best against blue decks but your worst card against shop decks.
Leonin Relic Warder: first of all, I love cats. second of all this guy is the stones.  He is good at eating the new tinker target, he can be used for mana denial by eating moxes and other mana artifacts.  In addition to the obvious vault/key and oath he is good against virtually all combos in the format.  Better yet, the he might be even better against the combo of workshop plus colorless cards.  He is much better then pridemage, not strictly better of course but in my opinion might as well be against workshop (at least for this deck).  He costs one less mana if you need to kill something immediately against shop, and against stax workshop decks he is +1 permanent for you -1 permanent for them, where quasali is obviously just -1 for both.  Not to mention that permision decks might use phyrexian revoker which can shut down pridemage entirely.  Yes of course he doesn't have exalted, but as i said in the intro we are not aggro we are haterade(against stax you focus on stabalizing anyway).  Interestingly enough his drawback is not so bad in vintage, there are few decks that can even deal with him other then jace, and I dont even see many duplicants around.
Kataki: good against everything, mana denial, pretty good-insane versus workshop decks
Cannonist:only 3 because you don't want to draw 2, this guy may not be good against shop but doesnt hinder you at all and is very good against almost any other decks.  He slows your opponent down while you just draw more and more hate.  In coupled with a kataki or arbiter is just awesome, sometimes all you need.
Teeg: teeg is great, he makes your spells unforceable so you can lead him off against slower control/welderish decks but in addition shuts off jace,tendrils,fof,gifts,gush,etc.  Ok against stacks, shuts off chalice which can be brutal at 2 and shuts off smokestack.
Phyrexian Revoker:I havn't done much testing, but this guy seems reasonable.  It does such that hes an artifact because you dont wanna open yourself up to hurks/rebuild too much.  However this guy is versatile, and is always good.  Against shop he doesnt get the +1 modifier from lodestone, and he can shut off metalworker,steel hellkite, and sofi making him reasonable.  Against other decks he shuts off welder,top,jace,tezz,vault/key,jittes,mox monkey,grim lavamancer,deep hours, hexmage, helm of ob and i'm sure many other relevant cards i cant think of now.  He also shuts off moxes and mana crypt/vault which can be nice additional mana denial.  However only 2 because alot of the cards he shuts down null rod does as well.
Aven Mindcensor: Solid beater, only 2 because you dont always need him because of other hate and leonin arbiter.  He does deserve inclusion because he can strengthen your locks alot, and is obviously can be very good if you dont have an arbiter.
3 Knight of the Reliquary: this is an interesting choice, recently ive been playing this guy because he is usually just better then tarmogoyf, and as i said before i like cards that interact with my opponent.  This guy is big, and against stacks game one you really need things that can actually attack for a reasonable amount.  Karakas and Flagstones are fine if you draw them outright so i play them instead of other lands.  He is alot harder to cast but his ability to start wasting an opponent, ramping mana, an turning extra lands into cards through horizon canopy makes him pretty good.  Also very good in fish mirrors, because you get him and 4 tarmogoyfs which makes those matchups much more favorable.
4 Null Rod:need I explain? It's insane in multiple matchups, gets you free wins all the time, if its not good side it out.
3 Swords: (1 more in board) necessary, kills bsc, very good against shop,fish mirrors, jacerattor, oath, welder.  you might want 4 if your metagame features lots of trygons/bobs floating around.
2 Aura of silence: This card is very good, i ran 4 for along time and then they printed started printing good cards, leonin arbiter and relic warder only leave room for 2 which i can barely fit.  It's a maindeck out to chalice on 2, very effective if it can be dropped early against shops lokcing them out, or any deck for that matter.  Kills anything in shop decks, and keeps them off duplicant/steel hellkite/trisk/wurmcoil.  Possibly better then cannonist against storm, because they may have no outs at all or just chain of vapor.  Having 4 was nice because if you could ever resolve 2 it was insane, but its still a powerful enough effect alone.  Also pops oath/vault/key, and fits the general mana denial side of the deck.
2 ESG/off color moxen: I would always play at least 2, its makes the deck have t1 disruption a lot more consistently.  It's such a nuisance for alot of decks to find an answer for some of your creatures once they are online, but before that they can set up their hand with tutors and draw spells easily especially if you are on the draw which gives them 2 turns.  Remember that causing them to force is disruption because all the blue cards in their deck are good.  Keep in mind that this is on of your best cards against stacks, it allows you to potentially deal with the patented turn one lodestone +chalice for 0.
4 Horizon Canopy: absolutely insane, well for vintage not really but good and on color.  I once drew 3 of these in a row and my storm opponent started  complaining.  I spent 6 mana, and 3 land drops and 3 cards for 3 cards while he spent 1 mana and 1 card 0 land drops for 3 earlier that game.  Just effective when you get mana flooded or have knight.
0 basic lands: ya it sucks, but with leonin arbiter you forfeit getting to run many fetches (one for pumping knight) so you just have to deal with it.
3 Waste effects: You can play more, I just personally dont like too many colorless lands.  You could easily cut karakas/stones for 2 wastes, but this deck will need to tap it for mana alot.
SB:
4 Serenity: timewalk plus destroy your side? what more could you ask for against shop.  this i also probably ok against other random matchups given that you can side out cannonists and revokers for goyfs.
4 goyf: these really want to be in the main, I can't fault anyone for playing them main.  These are really good against shop, well they are how you win and you side out your blank bears.  They also solidify your fish matchup, you just have goyfs and reliquarys plus swords.
2 natures claim: additional hate for shop, helps you not get locked and fights chalice at 2. also good against oath.
4 Leyline of sanctity: insane against storm decks and oath, and dark times.  That is enough decks to warrant 4 sideboard slots, unfortunately its a brick against shop and non storm blue decks which makes it non maindeckable in my opinion.
1 Swords: don't want too many swords in some matchups, so its 4th copy in the board.


I could write about all the cards i DIDN'T include but that would take a while so feel free to comment, feel free to comment how I am a dog against dredge too.
Feel free to critique the deck or try it out for yourself as well.

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« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2011, 05:00:40 pm »

Game 2: +2 canonist, +2 tutor +3 serenity; -2 true believer, -1 ghost quarter (he had basics), -2 knight, -1 arbiter, -1 teeg
I lay a kataki which he forces ... my board gets wiped by engineered explosives.
In other words your opponent gets a match loss for both trying to cast a 5 CMC spell and later an {X} spell with Teeg on the table?
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« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2011, 06:06:45 am »

I've been playing vintage for 4 years now and G/w Haterade for a little bit over a year.  Most of you are looking at this deck in an incorrect angle of approach.  G/W should be designed as a "haterade" deck, or a deck that uses cards specifically desinged to be good against the big players in the metagame.  In vintage, the reason to play green/white is because we can utilize less powerful but efficient hate cards to disrupt and even lock out opponents.  The reason why haterade is viable in vintage is because most decks, especially the two most common decks (workshop decks, blue decks with force of will) generally speaking play 40+ of the same cards, and make up a vast majority of the meta, making it very easy to play specific hate cards.  This allows us to make a deck that has much hate for these decks, while devoting our sideboard to lesser matchups such as dredge, fish etc.  G/W needs to be able to pump out hate creatures on turn one, and not dilute our hate cards quality with cards only good in secondary matchups (such as Samurai of the pale Curtain, true believer,) as well as cards that do not disrupt our opponent as much as possible (Tarmogoyf, Noble Heirarch).  These cards are fine for your sideboard or even maindeck according to your local metagame, however we are haterade because as far as I'm concerned "aggro" does not exist in vintage.  We do not attack with creatures, we attack our opponents resource and strategy with the utilization of creatures, which in vintage are harder to deal with then other permanents or spells more often then not.  Vintage decks are very fast, and do much more broken things then casting a bear every turn, to combat this our deck in my opinion must have the full set of 5 moxen, lotus pedal, as well as ESG (more on her later).  The printing of blightsteel colossus is a big change to vintage, alot of decks tinker clocks will change from a 3 or even 4 turn clock to a 1 turn clock in most cases.  We can lock and disrupt an opponent for a long time, and most g/w decks are very good against vault/key as well as storm which means most decks will look to tinker you as the case with most fish decks.  It is very reasonable they will be able to resolve tinker, this means blightsteel collosus, which means we need several outs to that card.  This meta change in my opinion is very,very good for G/w, this is because the cards that are good against blightsteel are also very good against workshop aggro decks.  We can run 4 Leonin Relic Warder and 3 Swords in my deck and they can be awesome.  Anyway, here my with mirrodin besieged.
G/W Haterade:
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Leonin Relic Warder
3 Kataki
3 Cannonist
3 Gaddok Teeg
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Null Rod
3 Swords
2 Aura of Silence

1 BLack Lotus
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
5 Moxen
1 Lotus Pedal
4 Savannah
3 Temple Garden
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
2 Wastland
1 Strip mine

Sideboard:
4 Serenity
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Natures Claim
4 Leyline of Santity
1 Swords



Your mana base is really strange to me.
Using 5 moxes (3 of them being off color) when you have so many colored spells + Kataki + Null Rod seems weird. And at the same time, you just use 2 ESG and 2 wasteland...
I would directly remove the 3 off color moxes, for 2 more ESG and at least one more wasteland...

Or if you really want the colorless mana accelerators for null rod, aven mindcensor or phyrexian revoker, then I think I would go for mana crypt instead of off color mox.

Just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 06:15:38 am by beder » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2011, 09:57:10 am »

Hey Rubinzoo, welcome to TMD and nice first post.  I got a few questions for ya.

Why Marsh Flats?  This was supposed to be Windswept Heath I assume.

I have never played with Knight as I don't like 3 mana for a beefy creature.  Does his ability play well with Leonin Arbiter?  Unless getting lands is proving to be his main function, I'd prefer Tarmogoyf since he doesn't have to tap to self-pump.

While I think Aura of Silence is a powerful effect (and another way to get rid of CotV@2) wouldn't a pair of Nature's Claim be good as well?  Think about Sphere effects; 3 mana turns into 4-5 a lot faster than you can get it sometimes.  Claim's instant speed gets my vote since you can cast it in response to Tangle Wire.  Two Claims in the main and two sb seem effective.

Are you sure you need Revoker in this deck?  I'm surprised there's no Qasali Pridemage in a G/W deck too.  Is Warder easier to cast at WW?  Note that with Warder and Revoker (to a lesser extent if you know what deck you are facing) you have to WAIT until you have a target unlike with Qasali.

If you decided to take out the off-color Moxen Noble Heirarchs could slip back in, cutting a ESG could get you up to 4.  It's a thought.

Well, good luck with the deck.
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« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2011, 01:43:54 pm »

Game 2: +2 canonist, +2 tutor +3 serenity; -2 true believer, -1 ghost quarter (he had basics), -2 knight, -1 arbiter, -1 teeg
I lay a kataki which he forces ... my board gets wiped by engineered explosives.
In other words your opponent gets a match loss for both trying to cast a 5 CMC spell and later an {X} spell with Teeg on the table?

Well, the judge ruled that both players are responsible for keeping track of Teeg's ability.  As I mentioned, things would have gone much better if I had more practice with the deck and knew the cards better.  Thanks for pointing out the EE issue though.  Given the dearth of X spells in Vintage, it's easy (for me at least) to remember that Teeg covers X and non-creature CMC 4 and up.

G/W Haterade:
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Leonin Relic Warder
3 Kataki
3 Cannonist
3 Gaddok Teeg
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Null Rod
3 Swords
2 Aura of Silence

1 BLack Lotus
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
5 Moxen
1 Lotus Pedal
4 Savannah
3 Temple Garden
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
2 Wastland
1 Strip mine

Sideboard:
4 Serenity
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Natures Claim
4 Leyline of Santity
1 Swords

Can you tell us about some of your results and match ups with the deck?  I'm not so impressed with arbiter at this stage given that the search cost only has to be paid once per turn, while mindcensor is a stronger search denier and better beater.  I've gone to a 2/2 split of those cards.  My meta has a ton of bounce and removal (in particular trike, duplicant,repeal), so relic warder seems like a fragile response - maybe consider a split with claims.  I agree with madmanmike that hierarch is key in the shop match, and would also agree with mana crypt or ancient tomb over off-color moxen to power out null rod, canonist and revokers.  I'm guessing that your deck has a better chance against shops on the draw, but suffers against blue decks.  Plus, is there no dredge in your meta?
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« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2011, 09:19:42 pm »

Thanks for the feedback guys.  As for the 5 off color moxen over something like heirarch, against blue decks 90% of the time unless maybe against a control deck will mulligan hands without a turn one teeg, arbiter, cannoninst, aura, null rod.  Though I understand the power of heirarch against stacks, I just dont want another late game dead card in a deck that features several already.  As for warder/revoker being reactive instead of proactive, you would be suprised how often this deck can put a soft lock on players and can slow roll a relic warder or revoker.  In addition the exclusion of quasali is because I am worried about getting BSC'd which is going to be the primary tinker target of most decks.  Knight is a non-bo with leonin arbiter, but as a haterade deck we want both these cards because of their effectiveness against against the two primary decks within the field.  Knight is in over goyf because knight can disrupt an opponent by attacking his mana, but unlike tarmogoyf adds mana while he is beefing up.  Look at the decklist, alot of the times you get stuck in awkward situations where late game nullrods/katakis leave you with less mana then you had earlier in the game.  If knight helps you resolve more threats after you resolve kataki/null rod which hurts your own mana base.  Also, tarmogoyf will never trump lodestone in that matchup (artifact/land/creature/instat)unless you get lucky with aura of silene and the other 4 in the yard.  Knight can be resolved with chalice on 2, and tarmogyof can never swing through a karn but knight can.  Being able to search flagstones/karaks can be helpful as well against shop decks.  Revoker is in there to test mostly, because its a new card and im unsure about its power but it is definantly live in all matchups.  In additon my meta usually features welder//darktimes where revoker is real good.  I also lost in the top 8 to a grim lavamancer.    I definantly want to test ancient tomb, I never thought of that.  As for dredge, my opinion on dredge is that dredge will win a tournament where the the field plays a low average of hate cards between them all.  This deck especially 3-4 sideboard slots are very important as they drastically increase your chances against several matchups.  If i lose to dredge with no hate, i will not be upset, but if im playing against dredge in the top 4 and there was an abundance of gy hate i will be mad.  Thats how i feel about dredge but the main reason why this deck will never and should never have drege hate is because you will still lose to them.  G/W doesnt have the luxury of an extremely fast clock or combo that other v intage decks have... each piece slows them down 1-2 turns but when you are casting 2/2s for 2 those turns dont matter.  Somebody asked for some games, so me and my friend played some on workstation.

match 1 trygon tezz (and by tezz i mean jace) lose roll
G1 Tezz plays sea, mox saph then acalls on my upkeep.
(2 Canopy, Canonist, Kataki, Aribter, Knight Esg)  I draw relic warder, remove esg and cast Arbiter.  He responds with vamp.
He untaps and I get vault keyed.
in +1 swords +2 natures claim -3 leonin relic warder he is playing 2+ copies of jace
G2(Flagstones,Waste,Nullrod,Lotus,ESG,Mindcensor,Sswords)
I lead flagstones, lotus mindcensor. resolves. remove esg null rod. resolves.
He leads with delta, cracks it and hits sea and thoughtsiezed my swords.
I draw revoker, and waste his sea after attacking.
He draws, and passes.  I draw temple garden, take 2 and cast revoker on jace. He  draws and discards a mox.  
I draw and cast arbiter which meets force of will.  On his turn he draws a land finally, but it is a fetch which misses and we are on to g3.
g3: he mulligans and i keep (ethersworn cannonist, null rod, pearl, knight, aura, strip, revoker)
he leads off with fetch into island mox and top.
I ddraw savanah, i lead it and mox pearl and cast null rod to pretty much seal the game but he has spell pierce.  However he only has 2 cards in hand and i have a grip full of goodies.  Unfortunately for me, he untaps draws plays trop and casts trygon. shit.  I draw waste, and my only nonland/non artifact is knight which i play.  He tops on upkeep and bashes me killing my pearl. he preordains and sends some crap to the bottom.  I draw esg i can strip and waste him leaving him with just mox top trygon or i can just stip him and play my esg.  I decide to sac savannah for marsh flats and sack taht for savanah casting esg and striiping his island.  He tops and then acall fills up his hand and is able to fetch for another basic.  He leaves his trygon for blocking esg i draw ruby, waste his trop and attack for 6 with knight.  He mysticals for tinker, then gets his bsc.  I draw savannah.  I chump bsc with esg on his next turn going to 9 poison.  I draw another blank, so i float a mana and knight fetch for a canopy which i pop for a card... stp mise! i stp his robot but he has force obv.  good match.

Match 2 against Prison stax, with port and thorns (sorry for my lack of knowing whatever the coined term for this version of shop is) lose roll again : /
G1  He leads workshop mox lodestone. (revoker, swords, aura of silence, teeg, canopy, pearl, karakas)  I draw null rod, and go pearl, canopy swords golem.
He plays strip mine, and taps out for Karn.  I draw ruby, play it and play Aura.  I play my karakas and bounce karn, that is!  He plays another mox and ancient tomb and has enough to cast karn again and strip my karakas.  Draw Knight, play it (3/3) and pass.  He draws, plays port and then sphere.  Ports my canopy on upkeep, i draw savanah woo...  I play teeg and pass.  He rips and plays crucible and strips my canopy.  Eot i knight for fetch and fetch for savanah (5/5).  He ports my savannah  And i draw cannonist.  I play revoker using knight on my tapped savanah, he doesnt respond with one mana up so I name Karn.  I murder karn with my aura of silence and bash for 2.  He draws, reccurs his stripmine from his gy and strips my savannah. (7/7 knight).  I draw arbiter, crack for 12 with teeg, kngiht, and revoker and pass.  He draws and concedes.
In 4 serenity, 4 goyf, 2 natures claim 1 swords out 4 arbiter 3 cannonist, 2 mindcensor, 2 null rod.
G2  He plays mox, sol ring, chalice 0, workshop and then smokestack after I have (swrods, rod, canopy, relic warder, mox, pedal, kataki) i draw savannah and discard null rod.  He follows up with sphere and port.  I draw and concede.
g3  I mull into (Kataki, double warder, lotus, strip mine,aura of silence) he mulliganed too, would you mull this?  would you lead strip mine on t1?  Anyway, he keeps his six and I lead off with strip mine lotus aura of silence.  He plays tomb and mox (18).    I draw null rod, i dont strip him because im just praying he wont sphere me so i can draw a mana source for kataki.    He drops shop, and plays chalice on 2 (16).  I draw marsh flats, phew... I pop aura to kill chalice and drop my kataki.  He pays for mox with itself, and drops a mox and a sol ring, so he must of just drawn the ring.  He plays duplicant (14) to get my kataki.    If i dont draw a white source this could be bad, but I draw canopy strip his workshop and drop null rod so essentially his board is ancient tomb and duplicant 2/1.  He drops a sphere with his tomb (12) which is really ballsy but I am only on 2 mana sources as well and bashes me.  I draw canopy of course because im running hot, tap three to relic warder his duplicant.  He drops a port and passes.  I draw yet another canopy, and play it and crack it for a card and hit a knight.  I bash for two.  Currently my hand is knight, relic warder, with 3 lands null rod and relic warder.  I attack him to 10.  He passes again on tomb/port with sphere and a bunch of mana artifacts.  I get a land again!! and drop my knight.  He untaps, plays academy and digitally slams wurmcoil engine.  I remove it with my warder and hes dead.

Drawing lands when you need them against stax is nice.

Match 3 Bob tendrils

Win roll, mll into Relic warder, waste ,mindcensor, flagstones, arbiter, sapphire.
g1  I lead with sapphire flagstones arbiter.  He plays saph also, preordain into delta.  I draw lotus play iand wastet and swing in.  He draws pearl, plays it and taps his moxen to time walk.  He also drops a misty.  On his extra turns upkeep he pays 2 and goes to double fetch but I stop him and mindcensor for the first one.  He misses completely.  He thinks and then cracks his other fetch and hits undergorund sea.  I waste his sea eot, and he brainstorms.  I draw null rod.  I bait force with relic warder, which would deny him his only blue source.  He obliges and then i cast null rod shutting off his board of just two moxes.  I go to crack in and he just concedes.  Having no board up against null rod arbiter mindcensor plus whatever else I could draw.  
In 4 leyline out 3 knight 1 relic warder.
g2 (canopy, arbiter, relic warder, waste, lotus, rod ,leyline) I lead turn 0 off with leyline.  He goes t1 delta for basic swamp, lotus for UUU vamp, preordain to draw it, mox tinker into blightsteel so he doesnt have to deal with leyline.  with two cards left in hand.  how could it not be force plus a blue card?  Anyways G/W can have the nuts too! I draw teeg like a boss.... i lead canopy lotus of my own for WWW (stricly better then UUU m i rite?) play my teeg, which of course he has to force pitching force.  And i use my extra WW to relic warder his robot.  He draws and passes with one card and basic swamp.  I draw teeg and cast it, he misses for a few turns until casting a bob where he is only at 8 life, but he flips minds desire and then dies.

Thank you for reading, hopefully with these games you will know better how the deck plays out and help me tweak it even more! sorry if the game write ups were sloppy I have never really done it before.  More suggestions would be great.  Also I;m thinking about switching to path, I wonder what your guys thought are on that.



« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 12:58:22 am by Rubinzoo » Logged
scipio
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« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2011, 10:53:23 pm »

Thanks for posting some testing results.  Most people just throw up a deck with no real analysis and assert that the list is the bees knees.  Inclusion of leonin relic-warder and phyrexian revoker are probably warranted, and could replace nature's claim to some extent.  I like revoker on Jace and metalworker, and relic warder is a better answer, short-term at least, for blightsteel colossus.  Of course, you'll get rolled even more by Chalice at 2.  Not sure I can completely give up pridemage, but there's a great deal of overlap between claim, pridemage, and relic-warder.  It will be interesting trying to optimize that.

I still can't quite get behind the off-color moxen, canonist, and ESG.  Too many WW and WG casting costs.  Much respect for your blanket admission of writing of Dredge, though it may bite you sometime in the future.

I hope you'll continue to post your results with this deck, particularly in tournaments.
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« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2011, 02:46:42 am »

I really like the duo Phyrexian Revoker + Leonin Relic Warder.
It is extremely versatile and I feel like it fits very well in the G/W tactic :
- it can act as a null rod with a body, if opponent has not a lot of mana artifact on board (in combination with chalice, this is an efficent solution for artifact on board or sol ring/mana vault)
- it can take care of most of the tinker target,
- it can deal with most of the painfull permanents,
... well it is almost never dead. Like it.

On the other hand, I also like noble, which is so powerfull against shop but also against blue, in order to speed up the deck. And sure, quasali is also excellent, especially because it is the safest way to block the key/vault combo. Plus its exhalted ability which often makes the difference when it comes to racing.

So right now, I am testing this build :

// Lands
    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Savannah
    4 Horizon Canopy
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine

// Creatures
    4 Icatian Javelineers
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Phyrexian Revoker
    4 Leonin Arbiter
    4 Leonin Relic-Warder
    4 Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald
    4 Skullclamp
    4 AEther Vial
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Path to Exile

What I like about it :
- Icatian Javeliners, which used to be in old school fish. I like it today for several reasons : it helps dealing with dark conf (and other small creatures) but it also helps dealing with lodestone (lots of creature here have 2/x power, so this one additional damage may be really significant)  
- All the creature have cumulative effects, having 4 of them is not such a pb. As a consequence, the game plan is pretty consistant.
- Aether Vial, which is one of the key cards against shop (but also against blue). Then, it is also very good with Revoker, Arbiter and Relic-Warder, which definitely benefit from the flash effect.
- Skullclamp which is very versatile : another way to power creature to block lodestone, to race or to win an aggro war, another draw engine against blue (in order to keep applying pressure).

Well, this is a funny build, still under testing, but my first feelings are :
- Aether vial and noble hierarch, together in a build, it is good in today's meta. This is especially true when you have a way to recycle some extra mana mid-game, which can be done here thanks to horizon canopy and skullclamp.
- Phyrexian revoker + Quasali + Relic Warder + Chalice + Strip + Arbiter, this is a nice package to apply a significant mana pressure and also to deal with artifact/enchantement threat on board (oath, key/vault, shop, ...),

On the other hand, I feel like I miss Gaddock against Gush (and I will miss it against storm).
Maybe I could find a room for it, even if this means a less consistant build... To be continued

Remark : additional benefit of aether vial, it makes the "chalice at 2" game plan viable. This is sometimes the right play to seal the game.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 03:25:19 am by beder » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2011, 05:13:39 pm »

Hi guys,

I've been testing this list lately. It is built for legacy, but I would make only small changes for a vintage version (probably -1 isamaru, +1 strip mine). It is budget and tuned for a casual meta. I'm ditching it now, because I feel it is not powerful enough and doesn't enter its lategame reliably enough (that would be when I have a loam engine going and start destroying more than one permanent each turn). Here are some observations that may be useful to some of you. Sorry if you find the right-up messy. I only took mental notes:

-Loam, wasteland and horizon canopy have been very strong. This is the part of the deck I'd be most inclined to test further.

-Even with 7 cats and birds to turn them on, ghost quarter is not reliable. If I could run 9 strip mines, I would shape the whole deck around them. Ghost quarter is not worth shaping the deck around. Path to exile, on the other hand, is good enough on its own and worth playing over stp even in a very defensive deck, if the opponent is denied his or her land about half the time.

-Arbiter is good against a number of decks. Very solid hate bear. But sometimes it needs to be boarded out and that would mean boarding out ghost quarter too and the deck thus falls apart. The bird has been very good too. This deck is super slow and makes very good use of a semi expensive evasive flyer. I've tried it in zoo before, where it does not belong.

-Aether vial is a house. It too shines in longer games. Though I really like mangara, vial and karakas, I think it is too slow and too cute. It has had some success in legacy lately, but I wouldn't play it competitively. I didn't have too much fate in living wish, since I've ditched it from aggressive list, but it is very good here. If I fetch the right target it tends to seal the deal. But my wishboard is very sketchy.

-The deck used to be RGW with some aggressive elements (wild nacatl and bolts) and a bunch of red wish targets. The deck was skitzofrenic, and I opted for a very defensive approach, which worked better. As I reduced the number of fetchlands, the red wish targets had to go. They were only for creatures and artifacts anyway and GW deals with those just fine.

-I discovered sakura-tribe scout! It is at times fabulous and at times useless. All the one-drops I feel do their job quite well, they are just underpowered and do not put games away.

Match-ups (I have played against pretty casual decks):

Dragon stompy (with koth as the main "dragon"): More often than not, he gets to 4 mana eventually and crushes me. My creatures are weak to red mass removal and blood moon murders me. Trinisphere is less problematic. I won only when I got to dredge life from the loam a few times.

Rock: Interesting match-up. I have many tools against its tutors and its manabase is weak to mine. Mother of runes is quite good too. I won more than I lost.

RG aggro (actual aggro. No hate bears): More big creatures like grunt and kitchen finks would make the match-up a lot better, but when so few of my creatures can take down even a kird ape, he gets too many creatures and starts hitting me around mother of runes. The deck I played against played no fetches and few other nonbasics, making half my cards a lot weaker.

Psychatog: With more aggressive creatures I would be able to take out the tog player before tog becomes lethal. Several times, I got him down to less than five life before he could land and protect a tog that killed me in one swing (it had flying, due to wonder). The strongest card in the match up is living wish, which should win the game if it resolves. And aether vial is fantastic too.

Ok. That was a lot of talk for a marginal list. Here it is:

2 arid mesa (should have been windswept heath)
1 savannah
1 temple garden
2 plains
4 horizon canopy
1 brushland
2 karakas
1 pendelhaven (would have been a forest if I had windswept heath. Or a 4th savannah)
4 wasteland
4 ghost quarter

4 aether vial
1 sensei's divining top

4 mother of runes
2 sakura tribe scout
2 isamaru, hound of konda (crap)
4 leonin arbiter
3 qasali pridemage
1 jotun grunt
2 mangara of corondor
3 aven mindcensor
2 eternal witness
1 kitchen finks

4 path to exile
3 life from the loam
2 living wish

Sideboard (very rough):
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
1 burrenton forge-tender
1 nova cleric
3 kataki, war's wage
1 gaddock teeg
1 jotun grunt
1 war priest of thune
1 qasali pridemage (leonin relic warder could replace pridemage and war priest)
1 mangara
1 azusa, lost but seeking (amazing!)
1 harmonic sliver (quite bad, but I wanted a 3cc artifact/enchantment solution. Sylvok replica would be better)
1 tivadar of thorn (hehehe)
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Twiedel
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« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2011, 07:56:58 am »

Hey there,

this'll be my first serious deck-posting here on TMD, altough I've been reading a lot for some years ^^
I hope to explain enough so you get the idea of the deck, and can understand my choices.

Anyway, the deck came to mind when I was sitting in a certain fast food restaurant with a friend at 01:00 am, we were like "shouldn't there be enough green/white Hatebears to finally make a deck work?" Here's what we figured out (modified after testing a lot online):

Manabase(26):

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
4 Savannah
3 Temple Garden
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy

4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine


Spells(42):

4 Null Rod
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Nature's Claim

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kataki, War's Wage


Dedicated Sideboard(7):

1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Serenity

Soooo, I guess some of you are freaked out by this setup, but I think it is worth thinking about the decks as really 75 Cards with some comming in later in game 2 Wink
The Maindeck Cards and their numbers are quite easily explained, let's start with the 4-ofs:

Null Rod: It seems to me the best card in the Deck, shutting off some combos and so much Mana, I always want to draw at least one, and it is mostly countered by my opponent if he is able (after all, he is quite low on mana because of the wastes)

Noble Hierarch: We NEED the colored mana, and this guy is giving us the tempo we need (playing a dude on t2 + wasting at the same time? I like!) Extra Damage is also nice, sometimes you have to get through some bigger blockers, but it's rare.

Leonin Arbiter: I love what this is doing to Controldecks, it really slows them down. Also, one of the few Hatebears I'd love to draw more, as they are getting more powerful, not less if you have multiples.

Nature's Claim: Against MUD the most effective card (besides wastes) and a Stone Rain vs Control is not too shabby, especially with the option to kill Timevaults Smile I could see going to 3 here, but at the moment MUD is dominating my Metagame, so 4 seems right. Also, you HAVE to fight these nasty chalices at 2.

Swords/Path: I like the full playset against some decks, MUD and Dredge mostly, but also some decks with Confidants and similar threats. The split is mainly because of Arbiter and life really matters in most games, so I'm a bit greedy here in not playing straight 4 Swords. But most of the time with quarters, my opponents run out of Basics anyway. (Some cool workshop kids are rumored to play none from the start ^^)


9 Wastes? ARE YOU INSANE?
No, not really. I thought it would be funny to have that many wastes, but it sure was not - it was GOOD. On account of all those wastes, I have a really nice win rate against workshop decks (which seems important right now) and I also love the fact that they are mere business spells, with my manabase being so big and having such a low curve on spells.


So what about those strage 2-ofs?

2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kataki, War's Wage

To be completely honest, they were just not IT for me in testing. I definately would never want to draw more than one of these, and Kataki is kind of Overkill vs Shops most of the time... I just feel I don't need her. It's a shame, the artwork and mechanic is so cool, but you have to make some cuts...


Everything on 3

I really play a lot cards as 3-of lately, and I must say, I really like it. Most guys here are particularly strong when you have one, but two are kind of redundant (enter: Selkie, Xantid Swarm, Canonist, Teeg).
If you're worried about the three-drops being too many, let me tell you I don't really play selkies AND knights often at the same time. It's just like selkie is so unfair against blue decks, and knight is just the hard-to-remove finisher against other decks (mainly shops & dredge or other null rod decks) ... so these are kind of switching places between MD and SB a lot.
Xantid Swarm is like a total beating (I often play it main) against blue decks, especially gush decks, since it is a must counter (if they want to counter anything) and they cannot gush in response to wastelands anymore in the second mainphase.
The hardest question to answer would maybe be: Why only 3 Pridemages. I don't have a real answer for you, except that I had SO many 2-drops, I had to make a cut, and I think with 4 claims and 4 swords, you really don't need the extra disenchant versus oath or shops, but I might be wrong here. If you like the guy, go play four!


The dedicated SB cards:
I think there is not so much I could do with this deck to further better the main matchups, besides one: Dredge. So I think it is right to run at least some really evil cards for that matchup, in addition to being able to waste their bazaar just about all day long.
The Jittes are in for all those random matchups where fast killing, lifegain, creature removal could be needed. So hello mirror match, hello fish, hello randomkiddiecomboplayer Smile
Serenity is just here because of.... well, it's like one of the coolest trumps ever. it really doesn't matter what those shop-guys are doing, they just DIE to this card. I feel like I sometimes need a Mass removal, and this is way better than another Kataki i think.


For those interested, in my Metagame I'd get these cards in the Side to get down to 60 MD cards and remain the best setup for Game1s.
I kind of optimized this so I can board the cards smooth for all major matchups - if you want my SB notes, I can post them later, but I think this post is already waaaay too long!

Momentary Sideboard:
(Spells moved from MD to SB)

2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Nature's Claim
1 Path to Exile


Hope you enjoyed, what do you think? And just by the way, if you find words spell wrong or sentences that don't make any sense to you, feel free to come over to germany and tell my english teachers Razz
regards, Twiedel

P.S.: I tried to squeeze in some basics, as well as karakas, but they were never really worth being screwed on green... I know they give path and ghost quarter a new dimension, but this scenario didn't come up since... well, since I began testing this Wink
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