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Author Topic: G/W for 2010  (Read 34900 times)
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« Reply #90 on: March 03, 2011, 07:53:56 am »

Nice to see that vial is being tested more and more.

I urge you guys to take it one step further.

Use 5 colors and this mana base:

1 strip mine
4 wastelands
4 ghost quarters
4 City of Brass
4 Tarnished Citadel (can be used for vials, skullclamps and revokers mid game)
1 lotus petal
1 mox pearl
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
4 Aether vial

You can't go for a super stable mana base and at the same time effectively get rid of workshop or bazaar. You need to hit asap and at the same time get in a vial or creature. You need the best creatures ignoring colors. To do that vial must be supported with cities and citadels. Vial also means powerfull creatures wıth a small body. The weaknes is the fact that your life count might go down against stompy, golems, relatively larger bodies, burn, etc. To turn this weaknes into an advantage and most importantly to have a plan ready to kick in when you are on the low hp side, I suggest Death's Shadow. The card is unexplored and ignored but I believe it is the best one drop for this type of vial decks.

In other words, the vial user accepts a longer game and takes some life losses by taking up the control role. By having an arsenal of hosers ready to fend off combo and shop, the match up against oath, fish and dredge is also covered.

Features of the list I suggest right now are: heavy board control, heavy mana denial, using your life total to its maximum potential, a strong nearly unbeatable mid game plan wıth an effective draw engine.

For people who are interested in the list I am testing I will share it (PM).


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« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2011, 06:01:53 am »

If I where to run a 5 color manabase (and I DO it) I'd cut those Tarnished and put Gemstone Mine instead. And I would not run 9 Strip effects, since it weakens even more the manabase. So, if you're running 4 Leonin Arbiter (so opponent can't use his fetchlands) there is enough with 5 strip effects, IMHO.

Currently I'm running a 5C Hatebers deck and my mana looks like this (using mainly WGB, and R being for 2 Gorilla Shaman and blue for Ancestral and Walk)

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
5 Moxen

and 4 more slots that I'm currently testing.

Last tournament I ran 4 Noble Hierarch, which I didn't like at all, since they do no produce B (for Confidants) nor Red (for Shaman and Ingot Chewer). So I'm thinking what to put on this slots, either Birds of Paradise or the Vials. I'm not very found of vials in Vintage, since they are quite slow, even more if you don't use coutermagic. And not running enough 1CMC creatures rends them useless since turn 3.

My current 'bears' are Gaddoks, Confidants, Qasali, Leonin Arbiter, Kataki's and Tarmos (that will get cut since they are slow) and will get replaced by Revokers. I'll try to sneeze a pair of Gorilla Shaman, since I'm not running Null Rod.

I also run Thorn of Amethyst and Spell pierce, that maybe will be cut soon.

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« Reply #92 on: March 05, 2011, 11:14:23 pm »

So back to the GW lists:

I have found that since I run Karaka's main, that running the cheesy combo of mangara/karakas would, at the very least, be fun, but it turned out to be very game winning in almost every game that I have gotten it out.
So now my 3 CC cards are:

1 x Preacher
3 x Mangara

and I sideboarded the 2 Aura of Silences.  It was amazing, but with the 4 revoker, 4 leonin, and 4 qasali, I was already good for your "normal" artifact decks, and found aura to mainly just be good for storm/MUD/Tezz(since turbotezz is ofc becoming popular again, which personally I am totally ok with, Teeg stops half their deck, and the other 16 creatures stop the rest.) and mangara can obv get rid of anything that aura could.

so for now, this is my current list:

// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Flagstones of Trokair
    1  Forest
    3  Plains
    4  Savannah
    4  Horizon Canopy
    1  Karakas
    1  Strip Mine

// Creatures
    4  Noble Hierarch
    4  Leonin Arbiter
    4  Phyrexian Revoker
    3  Gaddock Teeg
    4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
    4  Leonin Relic-Warder
    3  Mangara of Corondor
    1  Preacher

// Spells
    1 [V09] Lotus Petal
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Pearl
    3 [V09] Skullclamp
    4  AEther Vial
    3  Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [JGC] Orim's Chant
SB: 1  Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2  Aura of Silence
SB: 2  Preacher
SB: 3  Aven Mindcensor

Mangara has just proven itself again and again, I really can't emphasize how good this card has been for me.  I just say test the set of 3, and karakas.  And no I have never attacked with a mangara, it is simply a vindicate.  This also gives me a reason to ramp vials to 3.  EOT mangara, drop karakas is gg.

Mindcensors are moved to the side, they are definitely NEEDED and nice to have against certain decks.
I removed Ethersword Cannonist from the sideboard, because out of 20+ games against storm I have A) never drew them and didn't need to anyways B) just didn't need them C) wished I had an orim's chant instead. 
Dropped from 2 preacher main and 2 side to just 1 main.  This still gives me 11 outs to tinkerbot of any type other than inkwell.  Preacher on myr battlesphere is only good if you have clamp out......mangara on battlesphere (or a land) is good anytime. 

Still have no dredge hate, but don't know wat i would take out to add it. 

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« Reply #93 on: March 22, 2011, 10:20:24 am »

Mini-report and new list.  This is from Scholar's a few weeks ago, 9-man event.  I went 2-1-1, just outside of contention.

3 lotus, mox emerald, mox pearl
4 null rod
3 reliquary
3 relic warder
2 revoker
4 teeg
3 pridemage
4 hierarch
2 kataki
3/1 arbiter/mindcensor
2 swords to plowshares
1 nature's claim

5 waste/strip
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
4 horizon canopy
2 ancient tomb
6 fetch
4 savannah
1 plains
1 forest

2 enlightened tutor
1 ghost quarter
2 canonist
2 tormod's
3 serenity
2 path to exile
3 wheel of sun and moon

Round 1 - victory over the bye (kind of annoying, I'm trying to test this thing)

Round 2 - Dredge with blue splash 1-1-1
Game 1 - get railed
Game 2 - waste and wheel buy me enough time.  After wheel gets blasted, I'm able to strategically remove bridges, swords/path the recursive creatures, and block dread return with teeg.
Game 3 - another long game.  Early wheel gets chained/therapied.  Tormod's keeps me in it along with the above strategy.  He had an active bazaar the entire game but I exhausted his deck.  We draw with 4 cards left in his deck and nothing of note in his yard.  A drawn knight would have gone the distance.  Should have scooped game 1 quicker.

Round 3 - GushBond tendrils/warrens
Game 1 - Die turn 2 to a tendrils kill
Game 2 - Teeg and Canonist rule the day.  Tormod's came in to prevent Yawg Will nonsense
Game 3 - Kataki and Wasteland stifle development while hierarch lets me power past.  I was apparently a turn or two away from a blow-out pyroclasm, but managed the win instead.

Round 4 - 1st place on the line; v. Tezz/vault/key, tinker backup plan
Game 1 - Fetch for Savannah, get blown out by wasteland.  Simply wasn't expecting waste in a Tezz build - could have stolen this game with a basic, I think.
Game 2 - Combination of Null Rod and Kataki kills multiple critical artifcats.  I win the mana denial stratgey with arbiter and wastes
Game 3 - sooo close; early card advantage from ancestral and a stacked tolarian academy give him the gas to power through teeg (remand is better than rpeal when you're dealing with teeg), arbiter, and a nature's claim.

I'm trying to strike a balance between a deck that doesn't auto fold to shops, while keeping some game against blue.  I was pretty happy with the performance against dredge as well, and should have won that match.  The tombs have been a nice addition to power out early null rods and revokers.  As of now, I'm liking it better than sol ring and mana crypt (espicailly given my luck with die - did I mention I didn't win a single die roll all day).  I'm very close to caving in to the aether vial bandwagon.  One more bear with a nice comes-into-play effect would push me over the edge.

@serracollector - don't you think knight of the reliquary would be nice to assemble you're mangara combo, esp in a vial build where both cost 3.  And can someone explain to me why flagstones of trokair is good?
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« Reply #94 on: March 22, 2011, 05:22:32 pm »

Flagstones is good because if they waste it or smoekstack sac it, you get a land to replace it. 

Knights dont play well with Arbiter and AvenMindcensor, which i play 4 of each. 

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« Reply #95 on: March 22, 2011, 10:01:58 pm »

has anyone in the history of magic targeted flagstones with wasteland?
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« Reply #96 on: March 23, 2011, 08:46:29 am »

I have a set of flagstones, but never use them unless I run geddon/croprot/lotus vale. No use in being hit by moon effects and price of progress.
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« Reply #97 on: March 23, 2011, 11:17:47 am »

has anyone in the history of magic targeted flagstones with wasteland?

if you have an arbiter out without mana up, i would definitely waste it
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« Reply #98 on: March 23, 2011, 12:00:56 pm »

It also taps for funny money mana.

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« Reply #99 on: March 23, 2011, 01:54:37 pm »

Knights dont play well with Arbiter and AvenMindcensor, which i play 4 of each. 
Mindcensor only stops your opponent's searches.
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« Reply #100 on: April 08, 2011, 09:08:49 am »

Hey all

I'm a Legacy player and I plan to participate in one of the local Vintage tournaments in the closer future. This type of deck looked interesting to me for a couple of reasons:
- it is (especially with proxies) very cheap to build
- it is relatively easy to pilot correctly
- Null Rod seems incredibly strong against the format

Soo, I started brewing my list with some inspiration from this very thread. I played it only on MWS yet, which is admittedly really bad to test, but I felt both that the build played very well and is, surprisingly, strong. However, this impression may be biased because of some pretty terrible opponents. I also never had the opportunity to play against Oath, which looks like a terrible match up. I'm currently playing this build:

Main (60)

Lands (19)
4 x Savannah
3 x Razorverge Thicket
4 x Horizon Canopy
4 x Wasteland
1 x Strip Mine
1 x Ghost Quarter
1 x Plains
1 x Flagstones of Trokair

Creatures (28)
4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Leonin Arbiter
3 x Gaddock Teeg
3 x Kataki, War's Wage
3 x Qasali Pridemage
3 x Leonin Relic-Warder
4 x Glowrider
4 x Elvish Spirit Guide

Artifacts (8)
3 x Null Rod
1 x Lotus Petal
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Black Lotus
1 x Crucible of Worlds

Enchantments (1)
1 x Sylvan Library

Instants (4)
4 x Path to Exile

Sideboard (15)
3 x Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 x Pithing Needle
3 x Phyrexian Revoker
1 x Kataki, War's Wage
1 x Relic of Progenitus
1 x Null Rod
4 x Leyline of Sanctity

Maybe some explanations regarding the card choices:

Since I always want to drop either Rod or a random hate bear on turn 1 (at least on the play), the 8 mana accelerators (Lotus, Petal, 2 Mox, 4 Spirit Guides) seemed crucial to me. The 4 Hierarchs weren't included in the beginning, but after giving them a try they proved to be golden. They not only help a lot against mana denial, they also strengthen both offense (by exalted) and defense (as a blocker).

4 Null Rods seem self-explanatory. 4 Arbiter are to hate on tutors and fetches. The 3-3 split on Teeg and Kataki is due to their legendary status, however, I play the 4th Kataki in the board because he is so strong against shop decks.

Originally, I run 4 Thorn of Amethyst, but then I thought "How much better would this be on a creature!" and voilą, Glowrider is exactly that for a mere cost of 1 additional mana. I started first with 3 because of his cmc, but 4 turned out to be fine. In the end there are only 5 spells at cmc 3 and I do not run any card selection (beside Library).

Pridemage was also a 4-of, but after I started testing with Relic-Warder I just had to make room for this guy. I feel like those two are pretty even on their powerlevel, but they both have their drawbacks. While Pridemage provides exalted (which is huge), he makes you pay 3 at least to destroy something. Relic-Warder on the other hand is smaller, but exiles its target for only 2, which can make a huge difference. The 3-3 split feels right at the moment.

The singletons Library and Crucible have both their merits. Altough Library doesn't provide immediate card advantage, it gets so good if you get it any triggers out of it. It allows to search for answers or mana, which can be very deciding. However, I would never draw more than one, so that's the number for me. The same is true for Crucible, which provides continuous mana denial via the land destruction package and card advantage by Horizon Canopy. It feels pretty slow nevertheless and I'm not yet sure if this stays in.

The board mainly deals with Oath (Leyline) and Dredge (Wheel, Relic, Needle). Revoker is there against both MUD and blue decks, depending on the targets I saw during the first game. 4th Kataki gets in against shop.

Phew, that got quite long... glad to hear your criticism and suggestions.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 10:23:33 am by imRauSch » Logged
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« Reply #101 on: April 08, 2011, 11:54:48 am »

- it is relatively easy to pilot correctly

I'm not sure I agree with that, especially in relation to mulligans.

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« Reply #102 on: April 09, 2011, 11:14:29 am »

- it is relatively easy to pilot correctly

I'm not sure I agree with that, especially in relation to mulligans.
Care to share your thoughts more accurately? Personally, I just want to have a first turn Null Rod/Kataki > Gaddock > Leonin Arbiter and mulligan accordingly, but you gotta take what you get. The rest of the deck consists anyway only of cards that disrupt your opponent, so as long as you are able to prevent lightning fast starts you should be fine.
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« Reply #103 on: April 09, 2011, 11:58:13 am »

Aven Mindcensor is really good in vintage and could go quite well in this.  I personal think it is better than the one you are using for the purpose.

Also the pridemage is the Wiz!!  Run Four.  Teeg and/or Kataki could be a two of.

I really like you are using Ghost Quarter with full Path to Exile.  Most people have two - five basics and fetch them first in fear of waste.  Maybe one more for good messure.  Don't know how sold you are on the Flagstone.

Good one with the walking thorns.  Why don't people play both?  Not for this build, just in general.

With that I would be happy to play this, hope its good.

Lates, DrKnowMaD

ps. I believe in the CrucibleofWorlds fully.  And would look into Chalice of the Void (so good;)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 12:08:02 pm by Dr.KnowMaD » Logged

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« Reply #104 on: April 29, 2011, 01:35:14 am »

Here's my latest list with explanations below:

Lands: 19

3 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine

Additional mana: 8

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures: 26

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kataki, War's Wage

Disruption: 7

4 Null Rod
3 Path to Exile

Sideboard: 6

2 Ghost Quarter
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Having played various versions of GW lately, I've found that a few things didn't work. First of all the main problem has been stopping broken starts which has been hard to do without running Null Rod or other cards stopping fast mana. The second thing I experienced was that Aether Vial isn't really as strong as some make it out to be. Sure, it's good against Workshops but in all other matchups it's one of the reasons why the deck isn't good enough at shutting the opponent down in the first two rounds. Usually it's T1: Land, Vial, go. T2: Ramp Vial, Wasteland, Vial -> Noble which simply isn't going to disrupt nearly enough and you just have to hope to survive the first two turns. The best case scenario is: T1: Wasteland, Vial, Go. T2: Ramp Vial, play another Wasteland and destroy two lands but that happens rarely.

Hence the logical solution was to drop Vial and include Null Rod and I actually think that this is a necessity. Null Rod is actually very strong right now due to the amount of Mud being played - and the rise of different variations of "Turbo Tezz" decks which includes Grim Monolith, Mox Opal, 3-4 Voltaic Key, 2-3 Sensei and maybe even Seat of Synod.

With the focus shifting to getting a 2 drop (preferably Null Rod or Leonin Arbiter) down as fast as possible from getting a 1 drop (Aether Vial) down in turn 1, I think it's necessary to play a maximum amount of fast mana which means 2 Mox, Lotus Petal, Black Lotus and a number of Elvish Spirit Guide. Although ESG is rather weak it does an important job (just as Aether Vial is pretty weak but did another job) - too bad there aren't any alternatives though (I've been thinking about testing out a single Mox Diamond but I think it's even weaker).

As for the rest of the deck:

4 Noble Hierarch: I've never been a fan of Noble Hierarch - in fact I think that it theoretically is very weak. However as it turns out it's perhaps the most important cards in the deck against Mud and especially now that Aether Vial isn't in the deck anymore, it would be impossible to create a GW deck without Noble.

One theory I've been trying to build the deck around is the same that applies to Workshop builds: (in most circumstances) you must have played at least two threads by turn 2. Aether Vial is working against this theory and while Noble Hierarch at first thought seems to work against it too as it isn't a thread by itself, it actually helps a lot as it opens up various lines of plays on turn two like: T1: Land, Hierarch, go. T2: Wasteland, [any of Null Rod, Leonin Arbiter etc.].

4 Qasali Pridemage, 4 Phyrexian Revoker, 3 Leonin Relic-Warder: These are the utility creatures which are the hardest to play in the deck. Phyrexian Revoker I really like although it's sometimes not that strong. However, the ability to shut down a large number of potent cards like Jace, Tezz 1.0 and 2.0, Metalworker, Time Vault (or Voltaic Key), Steel Hellkite etc. combined with the ability to simply act as an "sphere" by shutting down a Mox or something makes it very good. Leonin Relic-Warder isn't something you want to see immediately but it's usually good later on and is one of the maindeck answers to the likes of Fastbond and Oath. As with Revoker it can act as an "sphere effect" if needed.

4 Leonin Arbiter,  2 Aven Mindcensor: these are way stronger with Null Rod than in the Aether Vial versions for obvious reasons. I don't think much needs to be said about these inclusions really, although the number can be discussed.

3 Gaddock Teeg: This is often the card that makes the deck work against blue based decks whether it's Vault-Key or Gush decks, stopping FoW, Jace, Tezz, Gush etc. Against Mud it's not amazing but not that bad either as it stops the devastating Chalice @ 2.

2 Kataki, War's Wage: This is the latest inclusion and I'm still not sure about it as I haven't tested it that much. The reasoning is that it works as a "mini Null Rod" (though obviously worse) and is really, really good against Mud. I will be testing it some more but I like it in theory and practice so far.

3 Path to Exile: I think 3 is a nice number although I would play 4 if I found the room to do so. Path is really good when it works (with Leonin Arbiter or Aven Mindcensor) and less stellar when they get to find a land in which case it works terribly against the idea of the deck. I think I'll test out Swords again soon.

The manabase: I wanted to play atleast 7 Waste-effects, otherwise I didn't think the deck would be viable. Turns out that 7 is a number that seems to work out very well. I almost never have mana issues and I seem to draw sufficient Strip-effects. I saw a decklist using those cycling lands that comes into play tapped but surely Horizon Canopy is just strictly better?

Sideboard: I don't really have "a sideboard" before taking it to tournaments so I'm not sure what it would look like at the moment, although these are pretty safe inclusions: 4 Leyline of Sanctity and 2 Ghost Quarter. Leyline doesn't really need any explanation I think. 2 additional Ghost Quarters come in against Workshops where they are awesome, serving as additional mana aswell as two extra Strip Mines, and as a part of the plan against Dredge.

Well, this was rather long - any thoughts? Smile
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« Reply #105 on: April 29, 2011, 03:04:39 am »

Mental Misstep is strong both early to slow them down and later on it is still a hard counter to many cards. It is free, use it.

Vial is am amazing card right now against shop and against any blue counterspells. But with only GW as colours, I would not play it either. You need red, for gorilla shaman to negate the tempo loss. Great after T1 vial into T2 Gorilla Shaman+wasteland

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