BrassStax at Myriad (mono red), and sideboarding questions

[TheBrassMan]

I played shops this weekend at the (low-turnout) myriad event.  The maindeck here is heavily influenced by my friend Magikarp's, who is more experienced with the deck than I am. 

4 Smokestack
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Welder
3 Null Rod
3 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere

3 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
4 Moxes
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

SB:

2 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Silent Arbiter
3 Shattering Spree
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Greater Gargadon
1 Thorn of Amethyst

Full disclosure: I scrubbed.  Hard.  But I'm actually very happy with most of the list.  My 2 match losses could easily have been match wins if I had drawn (strangely enough) Maze of Ith.  (About 20 seconds before the event I crossed out the third "maze" and wrote "tabernacle" on my list, and specifically drew that tabernacle to lose a match that Maze would have won... and winning that match would have put me in Top 8.) 

In a field where shops are getting stronger and stronger, I really like this list's ability to get an edge in the mirror with Welders and Null Rods.  On the other hand, there are a lot of nonbasic lands that provide value, and they don't all tap for red.

In general I think sideboarding is one of the toughest magic-skills to get right - and I've always thought shop decks were some of the toughest to sideboard.

My open questions on the archetype (granted these are fairly big questions... but I like those)

1.  What's more valuable, Barbarian Ring, Welder, and Red Sideboard cards? or Mishra's Factory, Ancient Tomb, and Ghost Quarter? (noting that none of these cards are mutually exclusive)

2.  What are the best cards in the Shop v Shop matchup, for both Mono R and Colorless builds (feel free to mention other colored cards if you really think you have a matchup-breaker)

3.  What's your plan against Dredge (and do you dedicate specific slots or run flexible cards there)

[Smmenen]

Your list looks really good, and really synergistic.   I think you want all five moxen though. 

[meadbert]

1.  What's more valuable, Barbarian Ring, Welder, and Red Sideboard cards? or Mishra's Factory, Ancient Tomb, and Ghost Quarter? (noting that none of these cards are mutually exclusive)

In a vacuum I would say Bring, Welder and red Sideboard cards.

2.  What are the best cards in the Shop v Shop matchup, for both Mono R and Colorless builds (feel free to mention other colored cards if you really think you have a matchup-breaker)

Welder is good which you have.  Trike can be good, but you run Rods.
Viashino Heretic is really good.
Crucibles are good.
Solemn Simulacrum can be really good.
Ensnaring Bridge is huge against Shop Aggro decks.  This is especially true with Bazaars and Welders.

3.  What's your plan against Dredge (and do you dedicate specific slots or run flexible cards there)

There are two possible plans I try.
The first is Serum Powders + Leylines and then try to lock out removal.  This is only worth it if you have Powders in the main.
The other is Ensnaring Bridge + Tormod's Crypt + Powder Keg recursion with Welders.

[Juggernaut GO]

why not just go all the way back to 2005 and run 4 uba mask as well ?

1. MUD has the same problem, all it can bring in are more artifacts to deal with problems that artifacts cant always deal with.  Red gives you gargadon, reb and shattering spree for the mirror.

2. Best cards hands down in the shop mirror involves both welder and gorilla shaman.  Getting welder superiority over another shop deck, especially Mono brown is pretty much a free match win.  Gorilla shaman just ends the game in combination with welder, and since you are correctly running null rod, you will not lose to a triskelion.

3.  Get lucky and not get paired with it.  Or run some combination of 6x ravenous traps/bojuka bogs seeing that you can filter through a lot of cards with bazaar.  Trap buys you the time you need to get a soft lock out, then you just finish all over their chin with lodestone.

I do find running tangle wire + welder is over redundant.  Welder protects you from your shit getting countered, tangle wire serves the same purpose.  Mono brown HAS to run tangle wire, this deck does not.

[TheShop]

I have been tinkering with lists that drop 4 uba and grab 4 lodestone.  I have a hard time losing the flexibility of bazaar + welders and the red board.

I didn't see duplicant in that list.  Finding room for 2 copies let's you have a good shot at RFGing annoying tinker targets and fish creatures.

As for sideboard- viashino heretic is the balls if he can and stay in play.  I like the rest of a set of duplicants in he board as well

[TheBrassMan]

why not just go all the way back to 2005 and run 4 uba mask as well ?

I actually considered that but never tested it.  The new no-floating-mana rule makes Uba Mask better... but I think that the popularity of Jace and Confidant could make it much worse (and I feel like it was always kind of borderline). 

[Grand Inquisitor]

I was running something like this right around when Tez first started.  The differences were I ran taigas and ancient grudge in the SB the 5th mox over lotus and made room for 2x uba mask (I believe your thorn slot and smokie #4)

[BC]

1.  What's more valuable, Barbarian Ring, Welder, and Red Sideboard cards? or Mishra's Factory, Ancient Tomb, and Ghost Quarter? (noting that none of these cards are mutually exclusive)

2.  What are the best cards in the Shop v Shop matchup, for both Mono R and Colorless builds (feel free to mention other colored cards if you really think you have a matchup-breaker)

3.  What's your plan against Dredge (and do you dedicate specific slots or run flexible cards there)

1.  I have never seen the rationale of not running Red.  Welder and Bazaar give the deck SO many more options.  The added versatility is definitely worth it, despite a higher level of difficulty and a slightly lower level of immediate disruption.

2.  Best cards in Shop mirror match
     1. Goblin Welder
     2. Crucible of Worlds
     3. Viashino Heretic

3.  Lately I have been sideboarding 4x Ensnaring Bridge, 4x Relic of Progenitus.  The Relics are pretty much dedicated to Dredge, but the Ensnaring Bridges are also useful against Fish and Oath.

EDIT: I love Uba Mask more than anybody rightly should, but it's just terrible right now.  Dark Confidant hurt it a lot, restricting Brainstorm and TfK really reduced it's effect, and now Jace has put the last nail in the coffin.  The last thing you need is to let you opponent draw 4 cards/turn.

[TheBrassMan]

There's been a lot of mention of Viashino Heretic.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, Heretic has just been too slow/too expensive to be the game changing bomb it otherwise would be.  I'm guessing your experience dictates otherwise?  I'm particularly interested in hearing from Travis and other people who have been shopping forever here... because I loved the idea of Heretic myself before I started running it.

[Smmenen]

1.  What's more valuable, Barbarian Ring, Welder, and Red Sideboard cards? or Mishra's Factory, Ancient Tomb, and Ghost Quarter? (noting that none of these cards are mutually exclusive)

Well, by definition adding more colors gives you more options.   But that doesn't mean it's always better, as the number of MUD lists found on Morphling.de attests.   The trade off red is that you get greater colorless mana consistency by using 4 Ancient Tombs and some number of city of Traitors, reducing reliance on Mishra's Workshop.  

[Troy_Costisick]

EDIT: I love Uba Mask more than anybody rightly should, but it's just terrible right now.  Dark Confidant hurt it a lot, restricting Brainstorm and TfK really reduced it's effect, and now Jace has put the last nail in the coffin.  The last thing you need is to let you opponent draw 4 cards/turn.

How does Jace make it worse?  He's replacing the Brainstorms you lament were restricted.

[meadbert]

It turns out that Tez can combo out pretty quickly when drawing 4 cards a turn even if it has no hand.

[TheShop]

1.  What's more valuable, Barbarian Ring, Welder, and Red Sideboard cards? or Mishra's Factory, Ancient Tomb, and Ghost Quarter? (noting that none of these cards are mutually exclusive)

Well, by definition adding more colors gives you more options.   But that doesn't mean it's always better, as the number of MUD lists found on Morphling.de attests.   The trade off red is that you get greater colorless mana consistency by using 4 Ancient Tombs and some number of city of Traitors, reducing reliance on Mishra's Workshop.  

running bazaar gives you increased consistency of finding workshop and is another huge mana outlet when combined with welder.  Also, it is easier to make null rod one sided when you can filter.  Not saying it is better, but the biggest plus for me is Mud can draw several dead cards in a row and ancient tomb doesn't help this.  They may even be castable, but still dead.  Bazaar let's you turn those dead cards into additional nails in the coffin.  Even without Uba mask, bazaar + crucible + welder let's you mill 2 cards that you immediately have access to and still draw a card.  3 cards a turn gives many more chances of finding and playing a threat and less chances of imploding.  Again, not saying better, just stating the upside that we all know.

I am not sure that the # of MUD lists on morphling= better deck either though.  Actually, I would venture that since no one plays ye old vromanstax that we have no way of knowing.  I noticed at Hadley that of the 10+ shop decks...most of them were mud, but a higher % of 5color top 8'd than MUD.  I don't think this makes 5 color better.

[BC]

1.  What's more valuable, Barbarian Ring, Welder, and Red Sideboard cards? or Mishra's Factory, Ancient Tomb, and Ghost Quarter? (noting that none of these cards are mutually exclusive)

Well, by definition adding more colors gives you more options.   But that doesn't mean it's always better, as the number of MUD lists found on Morphling.de attests.   The trade off red is that you get greater colorless mana consistency by using 4 Ancient Tombs and some number of city of Traitors, reducing reliance on Mishra's Workshop.  

I agree that adding color-producing lands slows down your mana a little.  However, I contend that the benefit of having Welders in the deck more than makes up for this difference.  In addition to "protecting your shit from getting countered" as Travis said, Welder protects your artifacts from Trygon Predator/Nature's Claim/Ancient Grudge, he keeps your Tangle Wires loaded, makes Smokestack even more one-sided, and generally helps you craft your board based on the game state.  Even if there were no red sideboard cards worth running, I would still play red just for Welder.

Bazaar gives Workshop decks the draw engine that is notoriously missing from MUD, while feeding Welder and Crucible.

EDIT: I love Uba Mask more than anybody rightly should, but it's just terrible right now.  Dark Confidant hurt it a lot, restricting Brainstorm and TfK really reduced it's effect, and now Jace has put the last nail in the coffin.  The last thing you need is to let you opponent draw 4 cards/turn.

How does Jace make it worse?  He's replacing the Brainstorms you lament were restricted.

Uba Mask will eventually empty their hand, but they will have no problems keeping up their permanent count when they are drawing 4 cards every turn.  Eventually they'll hit Nature's Claim or Trygon or something.  Brainstorm under Uba Mask would empty their hand instantly, putting them in draw 1 per turn mode for the rest of the game.

There's been a lot of mention of Viashino Heretic.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, Heretic has just been too slow/too expensive to be the game changing bomb it otherwise would be.  I'm guessing your experience dictates otherwise?  I'm particularly interested in hearing from Travis and other people who have been shopping forever here... because I loved the idea of Heretic myself before I started running it.

In my experience, if you can stay in the game until the point where you can land Viashino Heretic and have the ability to activate him the next turn, most people will just scoop (unless they had a Welder or something).

[Smmenen]

1.  What's more valuable, Barbarian Ring, Welder, and Red Sideboard cards? or Mishra's Factory, Ancient Tomb, and Ghost Quarter? (noting that none of these cards are mutually exclusive)

Well, by definition adding more colors gives you more options.   But that doesn't mean it's always better, as the number of MUD lists found on Morphling.de attests.   The trade off red is that you get greater colorless mana consistency by using 4 Ancient Tombs and some number of city of Traitors, reducing reliance on Mishra's Workshop.  

I agree that adding color-producing lands slows down your mana a little.  However, I contend that the benefit of having Welders in the deck more than makes up for this difference. 

Let me just say that I wasn't implying that it wasn't worth it.  I was simply saying it's a trade off.  Whether it's worth it or not is a metagame call, as my article on Workshops last week discusses in excruciating detail.   

[Bongo]

What's the reason behind the non-inclusion of the 5th Mox?

The deck looks really good, although I'm not sure about Silent Arbiter. Against Dredge, you'd prefer Ensnaring Bridge or more dedicated hate, and Empty the Warrens isn't really big right now. Fish can still put pressure on you with Exalted.
Against the mirror, I prefer Gorilla Shaman (or Viashino Heretic) over Shattering Spree, since triple Red is hard to come by. Not being affected by Thorn of Amethyst is also a slight plus.

Also, isn't Ghost Quarter too narrow?

[Bibendum]

Also, isn't Ghost Quarter too narrow?

Ghost quarter is fantastic for the mirror since you know there not running any basics, Good against dredge for the same reason and decent against a deck like tezz that a lot of times the basics they run will allow you to keep them off a certain color. Blowing up trop's knowing they dont run a forest is nice to keep trygon off the board.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I was simply saying it's a trade off

This should also be considered from the opposing hate perspective as well.  In looking at Ubg Tez as a key matchup, Welder neutralizes Trygon Predator (which effectively circumvents the need to 'race' Tez's Trygon hate with quickly dropped spheres and wires).

However, it also effectively activates 4x SB slots in almost every deck: Leyline of the Void.  With 7-8 slots (including Crucible) that are effectively nuked by a 0cc SB card that is nearly impossible to remove, Stax now is fighting on a different front with this configuration.

[Troy_Costisick]

Also, isn't Ghost Quarter too narrow?

Ghost quarter is fantastic for the mirror since you know there not running any basics, Good against dredge for the same reason and decent against a deck like tezz that a lot of times the basics they run will allow you to keep them off a certain color. Blowing up trop's knowing they dont run a forest is nice to keep trygon off the board.

Or it can hurt decks like Oath that only play 1 basic, so you can use GQ to blow it up and then they're stuck counting on Moxen, Lotus, or Non-basics for green.

[TheBrassMan]

What's the reason behind the non-inclusion of the 5th Mox?

Between Null Rod, Chalice, and Spheres, Mox is very often worse than Ancient Tomb, and I really wanted to fit a 2nd Tomb.  There may be a better place to put it, but I'm mostly happy with the move so far.

The deck looks really good, although I'm not sure about Silent Arbiter. Against Dredge, you'd prefer Ensnaring Bridge or more dedicated hate, and Empty the Warrens isn't really big right now. Fish can still put pressure on you with Exalted.

Arbiter was an experiment that hasn't yet run its course.  I wouldn't argue that it's correct, but I am a fan in theory... I just don't have the data yet to back that up.

Against the mirror, I prefer Gorilla Shaman (or Viashino Heretic) over Shattering Spree, since triple Red is hard to come by. Not being affected by Thorn of Amethyst is also a slight plus.

In the mirror I specifically wanted a card that beat Juggernaut or Lodestone, as most of my strong openings are completely invalidated by an early 5/3 on the other side of the table.  Mox Monkey just doesn't play the role I need it to there.  I ran with Spree as an answer to those cards, if I had expected red stax over mud I think I would have chosen Duplicants instead to win the Welder fight.

Ghost quarter is fantastic for the mirror since you know there not running any basics, Good against dredge for the same reason and decent against a deck like tezz that a lot of times the basics they run will allow you to keep them off a certain color. Blowing up trop's knowing they dont run a forest is nice to keep trygon off the board.

Also, isn't Ghost Quarter too narrow?

What jpfunk said - I had it primarily as extra Wastelands against Dredge and Shops, where extra Wastelands are very strong.  I wasn't planning on bringing it in anywhere else unless their manabase looked particularly fragile game one.  It might be relevant against Oath as well, to keep them off multiple orchards, but I'm not sure how important that is to my sideboard plan there.

However, it also effectively activates 4x SB slots in almost every deck: Leyline of the Void.  With 7-8 slots (including Crucible) that are effectively nuked by a 0cc SB card that is nearly impossible to remove, Stax now is fighting on a different front with this configuration.

I don't really see this as a bad thing.  I would rather see an opposing Leyline than most other sideboard cards.

[BC]

I was simply saying it's a trade off

This should also be considered from the opposing hate perspective as well.  In looking at Ubg Tez as a key matchup, Welder neutralizes Trygon Predator (which effectively circumvents the need to 'race' Tez's Trygon hate with quickly dropped spheres and wires).

However, it also effectively activates 4x SB slots in almost every deck: Leyline of the Void.  With 7-8 slots (including Crucible) that are effectively nuked by a 0cc SB card that is nearly impossible to remove, Stax now is fighting on a different front with this configuration.

I am almost never sad to see a Leyline of the Void dropped against me in game 2 and 3.  It's almost like they're saying "Look, I sided in 4 cards that don't do anything to disrupt your primary strategy."  The one time (out of many) that I remember being blown out by Leyline was when my opening had was something like Wasteland, Crucible, 2x Welder, Bazaar, etc.

I would rank opponent's sideboard card that scare me the most:

1. Sacred Ground (but who plays that?)
2. Ancient Grudge
3. Rack & Ruin
4. Energy Flux
5. Nature's Claim/Ingot Chewer/Shattering Spree/Naturalize/Seal of Whatever
.
.
.
27. Leyline of the Void

[Bongo]

Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild don't have a place in your list?

Why do you rank Rack and Ruin higher than Shattering Spree?

[dalek]

I played a red/blue workshop deck in the UK nationals.  

Welder was extremely strong along with Bazaar for the reasons stated above.  I also found Esperzoa to be very good.  I used it to replay challice (sometimes with a different number of charge counters), Tangle Wire repeatedly on 4 counters and Triskellion.  You could also replay Duplicant and Powder Keg (to reset counters).  And it blocks and kills Trygon Predator.  

Out of the SB I also found Ensnaring Bridge (which can also be bounced by Esperzoa for you to attack and then replay), Gorilla Shamen and Powder Keg good.

Report is here http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41027.0.

Regards

[BC]

Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild don't have a place in your list?

Why do you rank Rack and Ruin higher than Shattering Spree?

Yeah, Hurkyl's and Rebuild are on their somewhere.  Sorry, I made this list in 3 minutes. 

Rack and Ruin is higher than Shattering Spree because of Chalice@1, and because getting double (or triple) red should be tough for an opponent to achieve, unless you're doing it wrong.

[Bongo]

Yeah, Hurkyl's and Rebuild are on their somewhere.  Sorry, I made this list in 3 minutes. 

No need to excuse. Actually, with the question I was indirectly asking on how high you would place Hurkyl's and Rebuild on your list. I suppose around 4-5?

[BC]

Yeah, Hurkyl's and Rebuild are on their somewhere.  Sorry, I made this list in 3 minutes. 

No need to excuse. Actually, with the question I was indirectly asking on how high you would place Hurkyl's and Rebuild on your list. I suppose around 4-5?

Yeah, probably somewhere South of Energy Flux.

[Bill Copes]

Rack and Ruin is higher than Shattering Spree because of Chalice@1, and because getting double (or triple) red should be tough for an opponent to achieve, unless you're doing it wrong.

Don't the replicated copies get around chalice?

[TheShop]

Yes, but he is saying it's hard to ramp to a high enough amount of red to destroy something other than the chalice

[BC]

The only decks that can consistently produce enough to make Shattering Spree worthwhile are Goblins and maybe TMWA.  But if you're playing against those decks, you're already in the loser's bracket.  I think even mono-R Stax doesn't produce enough for Shattering Spree.