My Elf Deck...Help please.

[Delha]

And I was saying I couldn't return Gaea's Cradle with Quirion Ranger say turn two when I only have two elves untapped and I just played out Heritage Druid.

True, but in that case, you couldn't have played the Druid at all w/out Cradle, so you're arguably still better off than had you drawn 2xForest instead of Forest+Cradle.

[serracollector]

Concordant Crossroads isn't just necessarily about the being able to attack tho.  It turns all elves into 1 mana for 2 cards with clamp (cast for 1, tap, sac) turns all Preists in gaea's cradles, and the list goes on.  I was thinking more mana/CA advantage, not necessarily the hasty beat down. 

I totally understand not having CoA, but having 1 as an alternate win condition (not casting it until you have X elves in play untapped and Crossraods for example) was the idea tho, thus why only 1.

[Sharkles]

I'm thinking of cutting some lands and maybe the Regal Force for some elves that let me draw and some Spirit Guides.  Good idea or bad idea?

I just don't know what to do to make it a consistent turn two.  I get turn three almost every time, but turn three isn't fast enough if I want to win.  The Reanimate Iona/Painter's Servant and Belcher decks both win on the first turn.  Iona more frequently, however they both do it.  So turn two is only fast enough if I go first, especially since I have no disruption until post sideboard.

[Delha]

Concordant Crossroads isn't just necessarily about the being able to attack tho.  It turns all elves into 1 mana for 2 cards with clamp (cast for 1, tap, sac) turns all Preists in gaea's cradles, and the list goes on.  I was thinking more mana/CA advantage, not necessarily the hasty beat down. 

I totally understand not having CoA, but having 1 as an alternate win condition (not casting it until you have X elves in play untapped and Crossraods for example) was the idea tho, thus why only 1.

Fair enough, Crossroads double as acceleration. Coat of Arms is often just dead weight though. Might as well run Biorhythm or some similar jank in the slot.

[Sharkles]

The only other card I ever though of as an alternate was Brain Freeze.

[TheShop]

How about elvish champion.  This guy normally drops your clock to 1-2 turns from when he hits.  I would only use him post board, but he is a neat idea someone had last year vs decks you figure you will be defaulting to aggro mode against.

[rpf5029]

The problem with Gaea's Cradle is that if you keep if you count it as one of your "lands", you'll find that you'll have to mulligan because of it more often than not.  This is either because A) it's your only mana source [as 1/16, this can happen a surprising amount of the time] or 2) Your get stuck with a bunch of Qurion Elves, which is no fun for anybody.  I constantly find myself mana screwed with the Elf Deck, because I get hands that are all gas much too frequently for my liking. 

If you count Cradle as a spell, and not necessarily a land, it helps some.  It definitely hurts less when you draw it with no mana sources, because you can just say "well, it' would just be a spell anyway."  This has some merit to it.  The only problem here is that it takes away a mana drop against Shop decks, which is kinda "icky".  I once blew a Shop player out by casting Seeds of Innocence off a Cradle that I played for the turn, and that's okay in theory, but in practice you may get one activation out of it before they waste it / strip it / etc.  With as difficult a match-up as Shops already is, I hate to give them extra fuel.  Non-basic lands are kinda wonky, in my opinion.  Although, to be fair, two of the times I've done well with this deck, Cradle has been either main deck or sideboard, so take that as you will. 

Concordant Crossroads seems great in theory, but in practice it doesn't pan out very well.  Yes, it enables Priest of Titania to be silly, but in reality it's very win-more.  It takes away a resource that's 1) Not a creature and 2) Not a draw spell.  The former isn't so bad unless you're combo-ing very tightly, in which case it becomes terrible for you.  The fact that it's not a draw spell doesn't hurt too much, I suppose, but it depends what you're cutting for it.  A creature can be helpful to swarm / produce fast mana and pact for Regal Force.  It could be a tech creature that you just want to have against your nigh-unwinnable matchups.  (Workshop, Oath, Dark Times, Most Storm Combo Decks), etc.  It's too situational to run only one Crossroads, and it's not good enough to run multiples.   

The biggest problem with Elves! right now is that it almost outright loses to so many things.  It  loses faster combo decks, such as TPS / ANT / Belcher /etc, because Elves! can't really run disruption or the other deck is faster.  It rolls over to T1 Oath thanks to Iona.  (I used to find it hilarious when my opponents would play T1 Oath and I'd still kill them on turn 2 before Iona was printed).  Shops can mull to Chalice @ 1 and it's game over.  I played against a Dark Times deck last week that runs a strong amount of disruption and can combo out really quickly, leaving our only out to being top decking.  (Draw spells are such a premium in this deck).  We can beat GAT with some regularity on the back of Wirewood Symbiote, and we should be able to handle random Blue Time Vault pretty well, but that's basically about it.  Too many dead match-ups. 

Also, in the vein of Alternate Win Conditions, I go with Joraga Warcaller, because he's a 1 drop in the middle of the combo, but can make all of the Elves gigantic for the swing back.  I've liked Champion and Archdruid seems really good in the Shop match-up, but those also turn off Skullclamp all the time, which seems poor. 

[TheShop]

The problem with Gaea's Cradle is that if you keep if you count it as one of your "lands", you'll find that you'll have to mulligan because of it more often than not.  This is either because A) it's your only mana source [as 1/16, this can happen a surprising amount of the time] or 2) Your get stuck with a bunch of Qurion Elves, which is no fun for anybody.  I constantly find myself mana screwed with the Elf Deck, because I get hands that are all gas much too frequently for my liking. 

If you count Cradle as a spell, and not necessarily a land, it helps some.  It definitely hurts less when you draw it with no mana sources, because you can just say "well, it' would just be a spell anyway."  This has some merit to it.  The only problem here is that it takes away a mana drop against Shop decks, which is kinda "icky".  I once blew a Shop player out by casting Seeds of Innocence off a Cradle that I played for the turn, and that's okay in theory, but in practice you may get one activation out of it before they waste it / strip it / etc.  With as difficult a match-up as Shops already is, I hate to give them extra fuel.  Non-basic lands are kinda wonky, in my opinion.  Although, to be fair, two of the times I've done well with this deck, Cradle has been either main deck or sideboard, so take that as you will. 

Concordant Crossroads seems great in theory, but in practice it doesn't pan out very well.  Yes, it enables Priest of Titania to be silly, but in reality it's very win-more.  It takes away a resource that's 1) Not a creature and 2) Not a draw spell.  The former isn't so bad unless you're combo-ing very tightly, in which case it becomes terrible for you.  The fact that it's not a draw spell doesn't hurt too much, I suppose, but it depends what you're cutting for it.  A creature can be helpful to swarm / produce fast mana and pact for Regal Force.  It could be a tech creature that you just want to have against your nigh-unwinnable matchups.  (Workshop, Oath, Dark Times, Most Storm Combo Decks), etc.  It's too situational to run only one Crossroads, and it's not good enough to run multiples.   

The biggest problem with Elves! right now is that it almost outright loses to so many things.  It  loses faster combo decks, such as TPS / ANT / Belcher /etc, because Elves! can't really run disruption or the other deck is faster.  It rolls over to T1 Oath thanks to Iona.  (I used to find it hilarious when my opponents would play T1 Oath and I'd still kill them on turn 2 before Iona was printed).  Shops can mull to Chalice @ 1 and it's game over.  I played against a Dark Times deck last week that runs a strong amount of disruption and can combo out really quickly, leaving our only out to being top decking.  (Draw spells are such a premium in this deck).  We can beat GAT with some regularity on the back of Wirewood Symbiote, and we should be able to handle random Blue Time Vault pretty well, but that's basically about it.  Too many dead match-ups. 

Also, in the vein of Alternate Win Conditions, I go with Joraga Warcaller, because he's a 1 drop in the middle of the combo, but can make all of the Elves gigantic for the swing back.  I've liked Champion and Archdruid seems really good in the Shop match-up, but those also turn off Skullclamp all the time, which seems poor. 

I am officially on the warcaller bandwagon...always nice to have options.

As for the shop matchup- once you get past chalice@1 your only problem is trike.  Champion/warcaller/coat all beat trike...how do you get past chalice(postboard):

4x gaea's herald
4x leyline of life-force

Once again, these are metagame dependent decisions...sharkle meta allows him to play Elves! And not lose.

[Sharkles]

So, as was mentioned early, I "rolled" all of the deck except Belcher so I added Thorn of Amethyst to the sideboard because I have no Pithing Needles.  I also had A LOT of trouble with lands.  I would draw perfect hands but no land, or I'd draw four lands in a row when I was going off.  I did have a second turn win though, and I was able to beat a control deck.  I won with 0 cards left in my library.

Since I'm having the land trouble, I'm thinking of cutting a Forest and two sac lands for three more Elvish Spirit Guides.  However, as I said before, I can draw an opening hand with no land since I'm only running 13 (14 if you count Gaea's Cradle), but the Spirit Guides can give me that one extra mana I need and can up my storm count and untap Nettle Sentinel, also if the situation is dire, I can Pact for them.

One more thing, I found that I can win first turn off the draw but the odds of me getting the right cards in my opening hand and drawing the right card turn 1 is one in 900 billion, so I'm not counting on it happening any time soon.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I don't get how this deck can "roll" workshops.  I get that it runs basic lands and mana producing critters, but it faces spheres (and trini), chalice @1, lodestone golem, trike to shoot elves, hellkite to sweep a board of elves, tangle wires to tap out land and elves while they mount an offense...I'm sure if shops play nothing but chalice @0, smokestax, crucibles, wastes, and thorns then this deck does very well, but I can't imagine shops doing well at all if they rely on smokey/crucible to pay mana denial every game.  A shop deck with any kind of aggro, tangle, & non-thorn spheres should house this deck.

[Sharkles]

I mentioned my meta earlier.  There's no power and no shop decks.  The top decks are Ichorid, Iona Reanimator, Belcher, and this.

Testing by myself (no one else to play against ) I had a game where first hand I drew was good.  Kept, won turn 2.  Another I had to mull to five until I got a land.  Still won turn 3 though.  Not bad right?

Another thing I was thinking about...what is the best way to recur Grapeshot?  I'll give you a scenario.  My opponent was playing UW Control and had attacked with a Baneslayer.  I had to win this turn and he had 30 life.  Say I could only get my storm to 20 without drawing myself out, what card would I play?  We'll say I have 5 cards left in my library in case it's a creature.

[RecklessEmbermage]

I mentioned my meta earlier.  There's no power and no shop decks.  The top decks are Ichorid, Iona Reanimator, Belcher, and this.

Testing by myself (no one else to play against ) I had a game where first hand I drew was good.  Kept, won turn 2.  Another I had to mull to five until I got a land.  Still won turn 3 though.  Not bad right?

Another thing I was thinking about...what is the best way to recur Grapeshot?  I'll give you a scenario.  My opponent was playing UW Control and had attacked with a Baneslayer.  I had to win this turn and he had 30 life.  Say I could only get my storm to 20 without drawing myself out, what card would I play?  We'll say I have 5 cards left in my library in case it's a creature.

Don't you already play a witness plus yawgwin? Witness would be my choice anyway. Fetchable, draws with glimpse and clamp, untaps sentinel.. That should be worth the extra mana over regrowth. I would guess the other real alternative is grapeshot number two or a brainfreeze. In certain situations it would save you mana, but it would be dead far more often, I think.

For the record I support 4X ESG, but I don't like the high amount of duals. I would cut them down to a single bayou and a taiga only to be fetched if something is stopping you from resolving birchlore rangers. The sideboard options in green are good: You can drop pyroclasm for lords against other aggro (meddling mage and goblins are valid reasons for running clasm, though. Have you considered grim lavamancer, thornscape battlemage and triskelion?). Trickbind may become any number of pithing needles, duress effects or green instants (why are you running trickbind?).

Your black splash is powerful, but I don't like the idea of fetching a bayou early for tutor against wastes and yawgwin may be win-more more often than not? It may be worth finding out if 2 joraga warcallers in those slots would give you a more consistent deck.

It would be nice if you posted an updated decklist.

[Sharkles]

My updated list is:

3 Taiga
2 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle

4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Elvish Visionary
1 Viridian Shaman

4 Summoner's Pact
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp
4 Land Grant
1 Grapeshot
1 Banefire

[Sharkles]

So, my sideboard is:

3 Nature's Claim
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Gaea's Herald
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 City of Solitude
1 Gaea's Blessing

The decks that compose my meta now are Oath, Kobold Clamp, a counter deck based around Patron Wizard and Belcher.  The Iona deck hasn't been played in a while but it's always a possibility.

Suggestions on ways to improve this would be awesome.

[GrandpaBelcher]

If the Belcher deck is playing Power (and maybe even if it's not), you're probably the control deck in the matchup--Turn 1 combo vs. Turn 2 combo.  Null Rod or Pithing Needle should shut them down pretty well, and Mindbreak Trap is a pretty nasty surprise coming from a green deck.  Any of those would probably be pretty devastating against Kobold Clamp as well.

[merfolkOTPT]

Writing to ask if people think that GSZ will alter this deck significantly, also wondering if people have been trying out Genesis wave and or Emrakul in older versions.  Emrakul seems like a potentially good way to win the game, maybe better than grapeshot.  Just wanted to know which directions development is going.

Edit:
I have been testing an emrakul win condition based deck, and have been casting it on the goldfish on turn 2 or 3 in every one of my test games with no fizzling.  This deck seems amazing.

[Sharkles]

Emrakul is a very good idea, especially since 15 mana is no problem and he has a built in time walk.  That'd be devastating.  Very good idea, but in this deck, I think Summoner's Pact is still better than GSZ since it costs nothing and untaps your Nettle Sentinels which provide you with 3 mana which is enough to play out any elf you'll have in your hand anyway.

[MaximumCDawg]

I've been hearing good things about the Emrakul build too.  The argument for Emrakul over Grapeshot apparently is basically: (1) Emrakul is immune to duress effects without need for another card like recoup; (2) Emrakul deals with problem permanents on the attack; and (3) Emrakul makes you immune to Painter+Stone, marginal though this may be.

On the other hand, grapeshot is removal in a pinch.  I was up against affinity with my so-so elf deck a few weeks back, and being able to storm up to five or so and blast his board turn 2 or 3 was critical to preventing him from ending me or shorting my elves before I could go off.  I've also typically used grapeshot to punish early Bobs and whatnot.  Shot can be used to slow down fish, which can be critical while you collect enough silver bullets to get through countermagic.  Both Emrakul and Shot take care of Platinum Angel or Emperion, but only Shot can deal with Blazing Archon or its kin.  And, this might be the biggest issue, Emrakul loses to countermagic whereas Shot typically does not.  Granted, any counterspells they have will probably be used to stop you from getting going, but I could see a savy opponent (running massacre or whatnot) letting you combo in game 2, knowing they can just counter emrakul and nuke your board next turn.

I will be trying Emrakul at some point, but I just have to suspect that Emrakul is just not quite as useful as Grapeshot.  I have a hard time seeing how the one slot you save - for recoup - really makes all the difference.  Perhaps a transformative sideboard?

@Sharkles - Don't run GSZ instead of Summoner's Pact.  Run GSZ instead of four of your mana dorks.  (i.e. I now run 4 llanowar, 4 fyndhorn, 4 GSZ and 1 Dryad Arbor).  

[merfolkOTPT]

And, this might be the biggest issue, Emrakul loses to countermagic whereas Shot typically does not.  Granted, any counterspells they have will probably be used to stop you from getting going, but I could see a savy opponent (running massacre or whatnot) letting you combo in game 2, knowing they can just counter emrakul and nuke your board next turn.

How do they counter emrakul?

[Sharkles]

@MaximumCDawg:  Actually, I don't plan to run GSZ at all because with Summoner's Pact I still have to play the card so I still get to draw because of Glimpse.

Also, Emrakul can't be countered but he can be hit with Mindbreak Trap along with Grapeshot and Banefire, my two current win cons.

[MaximumCDawg]

And, this might be the biggest issue, Emrakul loses to countermagic whereas Shot typically does not.  Granted, any counterspells they have will probably be used to stop you from getting going, but I could see a savy opponent (running massacre or whatnot) letting you combo in game 2, knowing they can just counter emrakul and nuke your board next turn.

How do they counter emrakul?

They cast FOW in response to emrakul targeting emrakul?  Unless the "cannot be the target of spells" applies to Emrakul before it's even in play, which I do not understand to be the case.  Yes, you get the extra turn anyway, but emrakul is still countered.  That means you're still vulnerable to things that kill or stop your elf armada.

NINJA EDIT: Whoops.  Apparently this is a case of "read the card" syndrome.  Nevermind!

[Sharkles]

I'm guessing the Ninja Edit is from you reading "Emrakul can't be countered."

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm guessing the Ninja Edit is from you reading "Emrakul can't be countered."

Absolutely.  I guess that was the key I was missing from people's suggestion to use ol' Emrakul over storm combo; they're actually both stopped by only a limited number of special "counterspell" cards.  In fact, since storm rolls over to Stifle, Emrakul is even stronger on that angle. 

[Sharkles]

Very true.  I might try Emrakul this weekend.

[Sharkles]

Sorry for the double post.  Had some computer issues.

[swawagon]

I was thinking the big question in Vintage Elves now is now many Green Sun's Zenith do you play with?

[MaximumCDawg]

I was thinking the big question in Vintage Elves now is now many Green Sun's Zenith do you play with?

I cannot imagine why you wouldn't run the whole 4.  They work identically to mana dorks if you have them in your opening hand.  In midgame or midcombo, they double your tutoring power.  The only downside is that they slightly reduce the number of your one-mana cc creatures, and I suppose make it possible to fizzile on that last mana if you have no other creatures in hand.  Anyone tried this out yet in a tournament?

[Sharkles]

I honestly don't plan on ever trying GSZ in here mainly because putting a creature on the battlefield doesn't let you draw from Glimpse, nor does it add to your storm where as Summoner's Pact + Elf adds two to your storm for one less mana than GSZ.  If Grapeshot isn't what you use to win then I guess it wouldn't be that bad.

If that sounds ignorant, sorry.  I still encourage people to try it.

[MaximumCDawg]

As soon as my pre-orders come in, I'll tell you how it worked out!

As to your comments, it basically boils down to which you would rather see mid-combo of the top: Llanowar Elves, or GSZ.  I think I'd rather see GSZ.  It does chew up on extra green mana, yes, but you can use it to:

(1) If you're short of gas, go fetch a wirewood symbiote to generate mana and draw into more cards, or complete your nettle/druid combo;
(2) If you've got plently of mana, you can grab regal force, viridian shaman, or whatever you would usually do with Summoner's Pact, cept your 2x more likley to HAVE the tutor; and
(3) If you're in danger of drawing your library (don't laugh, I've done it before trying to storm up enough to kill off a Sphinx player) GSZ offers limitless storm because it keeps replacing your library.

Compared to that, Llanowar's ability to be a creature seems pretty pathetic.  I suppose also that GSZ is vulnerable to Spell Pierce, but I'm happy as a clam to have my opponent counter GSZ and let my Glimpse resolve.

[Sharkles]

Yeah, I removed Regal Force and replaced it with Banefire.  Don't forget that to fetch Force would cost 8.