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Author Topic: Gush is unrestricted. Again. Oh, also Frantic Search is unrestricted  (Read 20401 times)
Smmenen
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« on: September 19, 2010, 11:01:50 pm »

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/109a

 Announcement Date: September 20, 2010
Effective Date: October 1, 2010

Vintage
Frantic Search is no longer banned.
Gush is no longer banned.

Also, explanation here: 

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/109b
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2010, 11:02:30 pm »

MUD will continue to dominate.
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2010, 11:06:05 pm »

The DCI unrestircted two of the three cards I suggested two weeks ago.  Pretty sweet.  

« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 11:46:48 pm by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2010, 11:16:32 pm »

I look forward to how Frantic Search and Gush will impact Vintage today and in the coming months. Also, I hope to see more B&R Announcements of this nature in the future.
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2010, 11:17:22 pm »

WotC got us good.

Quote
Vintage
Frantic Search is no longer banned.
Gush is no longer banned.

Ha! The joke is on us. Neither card was banned before the announcement.

I sure hope they unrestrict them some day, though.
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2010, 11:20:19 pm »

Frantic Search and Gush were banned?  When did this happen?  Are they going to unrestrict them as well?  If so, does this effect the format at all?
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2010, 11:41:46 pm »

Gush says Draw 2 cards.
SkullClamp says Draw 2 Cards


Gush is unBanned, ans skullclamp is not unbanned.

I cry foul!
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« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2010, 11:46:10 pm »

Well. I'm just really happy.
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2010, 12:19:43 am »

Return of Meandeck Tide!!  Surprised Very Happy
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 12:55:27 am »

I'm really happy about this, especially about Lauer's closing statement from his article:

Quote
At worst, we suspect this is an experiment worth running again with other restricted cards.
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2010, 01:44:52 am »

Vintage
Frantic Search is no longer banned.
Gush is no longer banned.

I'm really glad they are paying such close attention to the format - lol  Wink

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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2010, 02:39:10 am »

Haha nice, is GAT back?
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2010, 05:09:11 am »

Next Level Doomsday is Alive!!
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« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2010, 05:11:53 am »

and their are no foil versions  on ebay anymore
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« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2010, 05:15:35 am »

and their are no foil versions  on ebay anymore
Those damn card pimps !

Haha nice, is GAT back?
No...

Next Level Doomsday is Alive!!
It's not...
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« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2010, 05:39:19 am »

i bought one for cheap, now i need 2 more searches and 2 more gushes Very Happy

edit: 1 more gush, 2 more frantic to go Very Happy
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 05:52:23 am by BruiZar » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2010, 06:53:14 am »

A late birthday and early Christmas all rolled up into one.

This is an awesome announcement for Vintage, in my opinion.  I've been arguing for at least attempting unrestricting some of a host of cards, including Frantic Search and Gush for a while now.  It's nice that we can discuss the present and the future concerning the management of the restricted list, and leave the past behind.

If I shed my usual modesty for a minute, basically everything in the explanation is an argument I've made in recent months (these quotes are from recent days, though only because I've had to repeat myself each time discussion broke out):

The DCI tries, among other goals, to maintain banned and restricted lists which keep a diversity of decks in competitive tournaments. One way to do this is to ban or restrict cards which are leading to overpowered decks. Another way is to unrestrict cards which may allow new competitive decks, and then hope that those won't crowd out more decks. While the lists for Eternal formats do tend to grow over the long run, the DCI has been making a particular effort to make changes by taking cards off the list more than by adding cards.
I want to make changes within the frame of the format: unrestrict, one at a time, the several safe (and eventually somewhat dangerous) cards currently restricted with the goal of diversifying the meta without creating anew a dominant deck.
and
That the meta is diverse now is irrelevant to a discussion of currently restricted cards that should be unrestricted.  What the meta looks like after unrestrictions is what's relevant.



Modern Vintage dates back to a massive change October 1, 2000, after which the list had 59 cards.
Quote from: DubDub
-It appears I'm just one of a few willing to argue about it, since it (banning cards in modern Vintage) is a closed book for the DCI, and hence for most players.

It's not though.  The statement accompanying Time Vault's change specifically said that if removal of power-level errata led to problems, they would restrict or *ban*.  There was never a "birth of Christ" moment in time where old Vintage became what you call "modern Vintage" and placards rained down from the sky reading "We will never ban cards in this format ever."  Banning is always an option. 
Note that the October 2000 change Erik references is when Channel and Mind Twist were unbanned, leaving no cards banned in Vintage from then forward (errata'd Time Vault notwithstanding).



With Frantic Search and Gush unbanned, the current list drops to 57 cards. This makes it the shortest list in the modern Vintage period. While the current Vintage format is reasonably diverse, we are willing to take some risks to try and improve the format.
Gush, Frantic Search, and Burning Wish all seem fine to come off.  Along with, in my opinion, Ponder, Demonic Consultation and Fact or Fiction.

I'd love to get two or more from the first list, and one from the second, though that's entirely unrealistic given the DCI's recent actions.  I don't think anything currently unrestricted deserves restriction, and I don't want to see 'No Changes'.
While I said changes like today's were in my opinion unrealistic, it seems that the DCI has adopted a viewpoint more similar to mine than they had previously, allowing for changes like today's.  I'm thrilled to have my voice heard.


Both Gush and Frantic Search have been in overpowered decks in the past. However, it is not clear that either fits easily in the best performing decks of late, such as Jace, the Mind Sculptor control or various Mishra's Workshop decks.
The changes to the B/R List come in seven days (counting today).  Any predictions about the Vintage restricted list?  Other formats?  What about the creation of Over-Extended?
What will happen: Vintage - No changes.

What should happen: Vintage - The DCI has decided that starting now, and going forward, only one card will be restricted or unrestricted at a time in order to allow maximum measurability of the impact of changes to the Vintage restricted list, except in the unlikely event of a complete emergency.  Additionally, the DCI has recommitted itself to reevaluating 'older' restrictions given the massive changes in the card pool, meta, and in some cases game rules since those 'older' restrictions were put in place.  Some of these 'experimental' unrestrictions look dangerous, and they are, but we believe Vintage can handle it, and that there isn't any serious harm in any mistake, since mistakes will only be temporary.  To that end the DCI has targeted the following cards for unrestriction one at a time, provided each does not present a problem during an initial 'experimental' period:
Burning Wish
Ponder
Frantic Search
Fact or Fiction
Demonic Consultation
Gush

The first such 'experimental' unrestriction will be... Frantic Search!  If this approach meets with success additional restricted cards may be targeted.



Frantic Search has been restricted for 10 years, and the DCI thinks it is time to see what it can do as a 4-of.
What I'd most like to see though is a statement that they want to reevaluate older restrictions due to the massive differences in card pool between now and whenever those cards were restricted.



Gush was restricted a few years ago. Brainstorm and Merchant Scroll were restricted at the same time, however, and the DCI would like to revisit whether Gush decks can be a healthy addition to the diversity of the format if you can play 4 Gush, but not 4 of either of the other cards.
Gush isn't any particular deck though.  There isn't a "Gush deck" as some people would have us believe.  It's an engine.  It happens to be an engine that fits into virtually any deck that plays Islands, pretty much.
And wasn't dominant at the time, and had access to 4x Brainstorm and 4x Merchant Scroll.

Quote
We can also see that there are 3 completely different shells for this Gush engine that succeeded.  These different shells will give the Gush engine a great degree of flexibility.  Is someone presuming that Workshops will foil Gush?  Not in an Oath shell.  Is Extirpate a problem?  Maybe for Ambivalent Duck's groundbreaking Gush Goblins (GG folks!) but eventually people will realize that every deck which can support Gush will include it, and decks that can't support Gush become obsolete.  And all attempts to fight it will be less successful than just playing Gush.
Everything in here could be said about Mana Drain.  Mana Drain is a pillar of the format, despite the DCI saying that the pillar is Force of Will.  Not to mention that when it was restricted it had access to 4x Brainstorm and 4x Merchant Scroll.  How can you say that 4x Gush with 1x Brainstorm and 1x Merchant Scroll would dominate, when no one has ever played that deck in a real tournament?

Quote
Does the opponent have a wider array of answers for Gush?  Sure.  They can Spell Pierce or Mindbreak Trap or Dispel or Iona.  But any deck that would be casting those cards would also be casting Gush.  Make no mistake - Gush would dominate just as hard today as it did back then. 
Because these decks would also be casting two, three, and four Brainstorms and Merchant Scrolls too right?
I also made the same argument regarding Flash:
Though Flash seems fair in terms of power level and historical performance, their justification is that it led to too many 'turn one kills', which I doubt is an opinion they're going to suddenly change.  Unfortunately, Flash was restricted along with two of its greatest enablers, Brainstorm and Merchant Scroll, so it's impossible to tell if a 1x BS, 1x Scroll, 4x Flash deck would be any good.
This is why I opened a thread to discuss making just one change to the restricted list at a time.  Here they have unrestricted two cards at the same time, but I don't expect Frantic Search to see much play, so most of the effect on the meta will be attributable to Gush.



At worst, we suspect this is an experiment worth running again with other restricted cards.
If they also say that they're willing to unrestrict cards as an experiment, even if the cards are a little dangerous and end up needing to be re-restricted, I'd be fine with that.

Finally, I fully accept responsibility for ruining the format for three-six months if Gush is wholly out of control, though that is not my expectation.  Optimistically I would hope that the meta settles down after incorporating Gush, this experiment can be declared a success, and we can begin to discuss the next round of experimental unrestrictions.
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« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2010, 06:56:28 am »

gush is the new brainstorm
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« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2010, 09:17:09 am »

It functions differently yes. It doesn't shuffle away cards with fetch, it draws 2 cards instead of 1 card, it can't hide cards for duress, it costs land drops (or gives you landfall), itīs free but can't be cast before turn 2, itīs stopped by Gaddock Teeg, it nets 5 mana with mana drain.

And yet, despite all these differences, I see this as the new Brainstorm. It is an unrestricted blue draw spell that requires you to build your deck around it, the same way you build a deck around Force of Will (Support with enough blue cards) and Brainstorm (Support with enough fetch).

Its different from Brainstorm, but it's the closest thing we have to the pre-brainstorm era. Cards like Preordain simply lacked in power level.

I would argue that Frantic Search is more like Brainstorm, due to its selection, but its card disadvantage and the fact that you need 3 lands to maximize the value of it undermines that role.

In any case, I am happy. Blue has access to 6 more draw spells. It brings a nice tension between Spheres and blue draw/storm.

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« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2010, 09:46:30 am »

I'm really happy about this, especially about Lauer's closing statement from his article:

Quote
At worst, we suspect this is an experiment worth running again with other restricted cards.

I guess he read my article and was able to understand it, despite some people's concerns on how "unclear" it was.  That's basically the exact position for which I was advocating both in my article and directly to Lauer in the forums.
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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2010, 09:52:28 am »

Next Level Doomsday is Alive!!
It's not...
It's definitely not.  While Doomsday is definitely something to explore again, it'll look like my old UB(g/r) build or like Soly's recent build: a deck that's happy to use Gush, but not defined by it.
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2010, 09:59:44 am »

I think the unrestriction of frantic search is much more interesting than the gush unrestriction. Its been 10 years since we could use frantic search and gush was a thing of the recent past. Frantic Search seems like a good way to achieve threshold, madness, storm dredge flashback and a very lethal yawgmoth's will. Some of those mechanics havenīt seen play in quiet a while, so I look forward to see how this takes shape.
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« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2010, 10:33:52 am »

Seeing this news made me remember this tournament:

http://www.team-pataners.com/icbm-retro-vintage-open-1-results/
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« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2010, 11:09:53 am »

Sweet.  I am pleased.
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« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2010, 11:10:55 am »

I'm really happy about this, especially about Lauer's closing statement from his article:

Quote
At worst, we suspect this is an experiment worth running again with other restricted cards.

Indeed. This is the most important line in the article. It suggests a shift in DCI philosophy towards B&R changes; a change that has been long overdue and will get a warm reception from the Vintage community. I hope that they continue with this philosophy in the future. My only concern is how they will handle experiments that immediately go wrong. For example, let us say that changes are made that immediately break or warp the format. It could happen that the recent changes spawn a truly hideous, broken archetype. I do not believe this will be the case, but if it turns out to be this way, I hope we will not have to endure a prolonged period of time where the format is unsustainable.
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« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2010, 11:52:49 am »

I think the unrestriction of frantic search is much more interesting than the gush unrestriction. Its been 10 years since we could use frantic search and gush was a thing of the recent past. Frantic Search seems like a good way to achieve threshold, madness, storm dredge flashback and a very lethal yawgmoth's will. Some of those mechanics havenīt seen play in quiet a while, so I look forward to see how this takes shape.

This is what I was thinking. 
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« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2010, 12:12:15 pm »

I think the unrestriction of frantic search is much more interesting than the gush unrestriction. Its been 10 years since we could use frantic search and gush was a thing of the recent past. Frantic Search seems like a good way to achieve threshold, madness, storm dredge flashback and a very lethal yawgmoth's will. Some of those mechanics havenīt seen play in quiet a while, so I look forward to see how this takes shape.

This is what I was thinking. 

Frantic Search seems utterly insane in TPS or similar builds, especially the ones using blue for Jace already.
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« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2010, 12:30:36 pm »

I think the unrestriction of frantic search is much more interesting than the gush unrestriction. Its been 10 years since we could use frantic search and gush was a thing of the recent past. Frantic Search seems like a good way to achieve threshold, madness, storm dredge flashback and a very lethal yawgmoth's will. Some of those mechanics havenīt seen play in quiet a while, so I look forward to see how this takes shape.

This is what I was thinking. 

Frantic Search seems utterly insane in TPS or similar builds, especially the ones using blue for Jace already.

-1CA and CMC=3 is insane against this control+shops meta how? The massive power of shops have been raping combo hard enough without the pilot running bad cards to help their opponent.
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« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2010, 12:32:09 pm »

I think the unrestriction of frantic search is much more interesting than the gush unrestriction. Its been 10 years since we could use frantic search and gush was a thing of the recent past. Frantic Search seems like a good way to achieve threshold, madness, storm dredge flashback and a very lethal yawgmoth's will. Some of those mechanics havenīt seen play in quiet a while, so I look forward to see how this takes shape.

This is what I was thinking. 

Frantic Search seems utterly insane in TPS or similar builds, especially the ones using blue for Jace already.


Good bye preordain, hello giant yawg will Smile
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« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2010, 12:52:52 pm »

I think the unrestriction of frantic search is much more interesting than the gush unrestriction. Its been 10 years since we could use frantic search and gush was a thing of the recent past. Frantic Search seems like a good way to achieve threshold, madness, storm dredge flashback and a very lethal yawgmoth's will. Some of those mechanics havenīt seen play in quiet a while, so I look forward to see how this takes shape.

This is what I was thinking. 

Frantic Search seems utterly insane in TPS or similar builds, especially the ones using blue for Jace already.

-1CA and CMC=3 is insane against this control+shops meta how? The massive power of shops have been raping combo hard enough without the pilot running bad cards to help their opponent.

Tolarian Academy is a good tool to get out of sphere locks. Frantic Search untaps it. I'm sure you knew this.
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