JMS version of The Deck

[ReubenG]

I have recently gotten into Vintage and when looking for a deck I wanted to find one that fit my play style and was customizable to the metagame main deck as well as the sideboard.  In standard I loved playing 5CControl so I naturally gravitated toward "the Deck".

Here is the version I have been working with since JMS hit the scene.  When JMS became available I rushed to fit into "the Deck" as it presented another win condition and when active is too strong not to have when playing a blue based control deck. 

I don't get to play many Vintage tournaments as there is only one place locally that has them on a regular basis and is only every 4 months or so.  I have one coming up and want input from others on "the Deck" and it's viability in the current metagame.

Land 19
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Academy Ruins

Artifact 9
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Engineered Explosives

Creature 3
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Steel Hellkite

Instant 20
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Nature's Claim
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Misdirection

Sorcery 8
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Life from the Loam
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Regrowth
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk

Planeswalker 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard 15
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Balance
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Sundering Titan

For those who don't have much experience with the deck (not that I am any expert), it wants to be the control, run your opponent out of cards, restrict their mana, and with an active JMS manipulate their draws.  I find in testing most wins are from a JMS ultimate.  This deck plays the long game, and rewards the player who is patient and doesn't get overly aggressive.  The deck has a presence going way back in type 1 and if you want to read about its philosophy there are many articles and posts about "The Deck".

Some card choices that may seem different or that I decided as metagame choices:

Jace, the Mind Sculptor:  Fact or Fiction, Thirst for Knowledge, other 3cc/4cc draw spells seem weak in comparison as JMS is a repeatable brainstorm, can manipulate an opponent's draws, and is a solid win condition, strict upgrade and something this deck needed.

Engineered Explosives vs. Pernicious Deed:  I like having EE as it is quicker than Deed and I can create a lock with an active Academy Ruins.  Can also be a second Tinker target off a Will.

Life from the Loam vs. Crucible of Worlds:  This is a close call, but the interaction with JMS can allow you to dig further into the deck for answers.  Getting stuff in the graveyard for a large Will off a Drain is an added bonus as well.

Steel Hellkite vs. Sundering Titan: This is a concession to the MUD decks as Titan is a dead tinker target against them.  He has a place as a strong option against multi-colored decks.

Lightning Bolt vs. Fire/Ice or Darkblast: in the current metagame I feel lightning bolt is an upgrade to other options.  It can remove JMS, Confidants, Lodestone, Juggernaut, Predators, Cobra's and many more.  3 damage is strong currently.

I currently am testing counters and debating on number of drains and the inclusion of spell pierce.  Pierce is so bad later in the game in which this deck thrives that I felt having the misdirection and full set of drains were a better option, but much more testing would bear that out.

I don't have enough testing to give matchup percentages, but feel the build has game against any deck. Others with more experience testing with it could maybe give #'s but I haven't seen many recent builds of "The Deck" discussed.

Input is appreciated from all the experienced minds on TMD. 

[Mr. Type 4]

I havent played this deck, but 27 mana sounds pretty high to me.  I imagine this deck will take a lot of losses because it top decks too much land on critical turns. 

Academy ruins seems particularly weak.  All it does is recur your Engineered Explosives or make colorless mana - it's junk.  I'm sure that sometimes you Dredge moxes or something with Loam, but that still doesn't justify it's inclusion, IMO.  Library of Alexandira is prob a lot better, or just another card that isn't a mana source would be good.   

You didn't forget Ancient Grudge, which is good. That's the most compelling reason to play a 5 color anything right now, IMO. 

[Metman]

I like the 27 sources but I don't like the Loam over Crucible.  Crucible is automatic.  Academy Ruins seems only okay.  With it only recurring Explosives on a regular basis I would cut it and if you do I like Balance better than EE.  I haven't tested this deck but on paper I would do the following:
- Academy Ruins
- Engineered Explosives
- Life from the Loam
+ Balance
+ Library of Alexandria
+ Crucible of Worlds

Misdirection is a fringe card in my opinion.  It is metagame dependent.  What I don't like about it is that it does nothing to combat Workshops and most of what Gush decks are going to be doing.   I would consider another Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, Spell Pierce, Pernicious Deed, or something along the lines of Ponder or Preordain.

[ReubenG]

I havent played this deck, but 27 mana sounds pretty high to me.  I imagine this deck will take a lot of losses because it top decks too much land on critical turns. 

Academy ruins seems particularly weak.  All it does is recur your Engineered Explosives or make colorless mana - it's junk.  I'm sure that sometimes you Dredge moxes or something with Loam, but that still doesn't justify it's inclusion, IMO.  Library of Alexandira is prob a lot better, or just another card that isn't a mana source would be good.   

You didn't forget Ancient Grudge, which is good. That's the most compelling reason to play a 5 color anything right now, IMO. 

For mana sources the land count feels necessary due to the stripmine/wasteland recurssion.  Fast mana is an area I have contemplated like removing Mana Crypt or Sol Ring for more business, but feel they are needed to get out from under sphere effects.

Academy Ruins is one of the card choices I struggle with.  If I were to change I would go to Library, but I find it rare to have a full grip to activate it.  I will have to test more and see if a LoA would accomplish more for me and maybe play even more reactive to keep a full grip of card.  I haven't found Academy Ruins really doing what I want that often either, but with EE in the deck I thought it would become relevant for recurssion and for colorless mana to get EE to work under a sphere.   More testing needed.

100% agree on Grudge.

[ReubenG]

I like the 27 sources but I don't like the Loam over Crucible.  Crucible is automatic.  Academy Ruins seems only okay.  With it only recurring Explosives on a regular basis I would cut it and if you do I like Balance better than EE.  I haven't tested this deck but on paper I would do the following:
- Academy Ruins
- Engineered Explosives
- Life from the Loam
+ Balance
+ Library of Alexandria
+ Crucible of Worlds

Misdirection is a fringe card in my opinion.  It is metagame dependent.  What I don't like about it is that it does nothing to combat Workshops and most of what Gush decks are going to be doing.   I would consider another Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, Spell Pierce, Pernicious Deed, or something along the lines of Ponder or Preordain.

I hear your sentaments on Balance, and have gone to it in the sideboard.  I look at it to swap with EE in matchups were Balance would be better.  I have the build main more to fight spheres and fast mana due to a metagame call.

Academy vs Library I discuss in above post, I will go back and test this to see if I can keep enough cards to make effective.  Now that I think about it more I suspect with JMS and LftL it will be easier to trigger mid game than I orginally thought.

For me the Cruicible vs Life from the Loam comes down to a better interaction with JMS.  With only 4 fetches this deck doesn't filter cards as easily to brainstorm effects.  LftL goes a long was to assist with that.  I also like that it doesn't matter if its counterd like CoW...though Academy Ruins could recur that.  Its also cheaper and fuels Will and Regrowth.

On subject with wasteland recurrsion in a deck like this that wants to restrict mana, I wonder if Fastbond would give a more complete lock.  Any thoughts on this?

[limitedwhole]

1) 14 blue sources.  Generally 16 is considered standard.
2) Crucible and Balance are auto's as is Zuran Orb in the sideboard.  Orb is sideboarded in against control decks not just aggro decks.
3) There really isn't any good reason to not play swords to plowshares.  When you look across the table and see a tarmogofy or dryad you'll understand why the deck always plays swords.
4) Skeletal Scrying is an auto in the deck.
5) You are playing way too much hate against dredge.  One of the deck sbest assets is that it doesn't have to hate dredge meaning it can have a better sideboard.  You have wastelands.  This makes them slow, just be able to make sure they don't slow dredge you and you are good.
6) 2 Nature's Claim+2 Lightning Bolt: chalice at 1 shuts you off.  Disenchant, Shaman and Swords is better.
7) 1 cunning wish is usually considered standard.  It isn't that slow because it is usually considered an "extra" answer for whatever ails you.  It can also fetch card drawing in the form of skeletal scrying.  Fetch dark blast for instance against a deck with 4 bobs and 4 lotus cobras.
8) Normally you want to play as many gorilla shamans as possible between main and board.  Try to fit 2 main and 2 board if you can.
9) The best card you can draw against workshop and other control decks is land.  Play with the classic twenty eight sources.  SoLoMox+Library+5Strip/WAste+Blue sources

One of the hardest things to learn when playing the deck is to not use your tutors.  Yes you will occasionally draw hands that you want to come out blazing with, but tutors are most powerful when you don't use them.  Don't counter things you don't have to counter.  Finally, you want to play your cards on top of your opponents cards.  Let your opponent have thatmidgame bob, but make sure to put a huge scrying on top of it.

Don'tlet others criticism of your deck get you down.  Pay attention when what they have to say is true, but be sure to try out a variety of cards in play.  Ideally you want a perfectly honed deck post sideboard and a strong deck pre sideboard.  Try building averions to play against workshop, one against tez, and one against combo, and one against fish, and so on.  Then see which cards thyou have in common and try to put together a strong 75.  I don't play brainstorm for instance, because it isn't an answer and doesn't find one and the threats right now are very diverse.

If you are going to play tropical island in the deck the 4 most attractive cards are Regrowth, Reclaim, Sylvan Library, and Carpet of Flowers.

Finally, Jace is played at sorcery speed and gives you cards over time, something l;ike scrying is playable at instant speed and gives you cards now.  For a card to be playable in the deck at sorcery speed it has to be brutally powerful like yawgmoth's will, crucible, or timetwister.  Jace is expensive and lets face it any draw spell at instant does what he does.  I think Jace it pretty weak.  Who is he good against?  He isnt any good in the control mirror and he isnt any good against shop and he isnt any good against dredge?

Edit: For your reference here is a link to the last known list that Brian Weissman built.  Keep in mind this was made during the Brainstorm, Duress, Merchant Scroll era of magic, in which every deck he played against was built to utilize the card quality combo of Duress and Brainstorm to resolve Ancestral, hence the Brainstorms.  Whats really nice about this 2006 list is that it really gives you a good idea of what the bare bonoes The Deck cards are and what the deck is all about.  It took allot of effort on Brian's part to fit in the brainstorms.  Notice he didn't cut swords or shaman.  Didn't cut Zuran Orb.  If it ddidn't get cut from the 2006 list its pretty savage.

http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/The_Deck

[Delha]

Finally, Jace is played at sorcery speed and gives you cards over time, something l;ike scrying is playable at instant speed and gives you cards now.

Yeah, Confidant is a pretty terrible card too. Why wait until next turn when you can draw now? /sarcasm

I think Jace it pretty weak.  Who is he good against?  He isnt any good in the control mirror and he isnt any good against shop and he isnt any good against dredge?

Exactly how do you classify the decks that have been running more and more copies of Jace and winning? What matchups would you say he's improving for them?

[honestabe]

@ limited whole

You obviously havent played with him



Anyway, the deck probably want time vault.  its literally too good not to play

[limitedwhole]

I would play updraft over time vault in The Deck. 

[ReubenG]

@ limitedwhole

Thanks for the post, it has given some ideas that I will test.  Here are some of my thoughts:
1).  I count 15, and most lists I have seen run 15 some 16
2). I agree a playing land from the GY is necessary, and have detailed why I chose LftL instead of Cruicible.  Balance is in my SB. I guess I don't understand the orb though, if I really need any life gain nature's claims on my own artifacts can work in a pinch.  I guess it would help against some aggro, but I don't understand control.  Explain more.
3). I don't see much aggro in my meta, but the Bolts and EE provide ways to deal with creatures.
4). I like this idea and will look into it in SB and possibly main
5). I think this has some merit, but my testing in game 1 even a wasted Baghdad just slows them down.  The Deck is not quick enough to catch up before they recover.  I may error on less sideboard dredge and go for some wishable hate and jailers.
6). I disagree with this, I can deal with a chalice at 1 with EE and Ancient Grudge and Hurkyl's Recall. I don't like Disenchant and already talked about swords...diabolic edict is better for aggro.
7). Cunning Wish I agree is something I should go back to.  I initially tested and felt it slow, but I don't think I gave it a chance since I find fitting everything main deck it too difficult and a wish board would really help.
8). I would play 2 at the most.  Explain what you would remove to have 4 post side board and matches it would be beneficial
9). I agree land is great.  I have 27 and if I do add a 28 I would go to a Nassif style 61 maindeck.

I appreciate the other comments and agree with your comments on play style.

I however don't agree with you on Jace, the Mind Sculptor.  Like Delha and honestabe posted JMS is a really powerful card.  As mentioned in my first post, I typically win with an active Jace. He has other abilities than just a brainstorm.  Unsummon and Fateseal serve this deck greatly, and if you ultimate with him, it is Game Over.  Planeswalkers are hard for most vintage decks to effecitvly deal with.  Those decks that can attach into him, he can unsummon that attacker.  Most decks have to legend Jace out, and then what are they left with....tapped out mana and one less card, just what The Deck is looking for.

[ReubenG]

Anyway, the deck probably want time vault.  its literally too good not to play

I agree time vault is so good, but I literally don't know how it would fit in the deck.  I think it would be a wash by giving some early "oops I win" factor, but its hard to fit everything in and I think it would decrease the decks overall matchups.  You would have to remove some business cards to fit the 2 card combo.  Take out creature kill = loose to confidant's CA and beats, take out JMS all matchups suffer, take out some grudges or claims then MUD and other Key/Vault decks, take out counters loose to other bombs.

Most decks running Vault/Key are running less artifacts and turns on Claim's, Grudges, and EE.  Once they loose the vault will is the only return, and in some cases if they have tinkered for it, they now are down 2 win conditions.  Yes there is the "oops I won" but all decks face that.

[limitedwhole]

In response to you question about Zuran Orb:  The Weissman deck is a land destruction deck.  In the midgame, playing balance orb while holding back a city of brass will kill most decks.  You can opperate your entire deck off city.  Brian Weissman went so far as to highlight this as an essential play.  Will there be games that you just recurse ancestral and forget about land destruction somewhat. yes.  But balancing a players basic islands of the table, just always wins.  The deck is designed to recover from this.  Other decks aren't.

Jace obviously isn't a "bad" card.  But I don't think it is really good in any matchup, it is okay.  You win with just plain old fashioned card drawing as well, and card drawing can be done at instant speed.  I think Jace is like a good Mirari in the Deck.  He gives you what you want not what you need.  Red Elemental Blast is a common spell in type 1.  Tapping mana on their own turns is what these other decks do.  The Weissman deck does the opposite.  Lets say I just let my opponent win a counter war for something does doesn't matter like Bob.  I untap.  I am tapping out as he is spent.  I play Jace...not so great.  I play YAwgmoth's Will...woot.  I play Skeletal scrying for 7 cards...woot!.  I play Ancestral, regrowth, ancestral Timewalk...Woot.  i play Balance, Orb, City tutor for ancestral...woot.  We already have a Jace in our deck and it is Crucible of Worlds.  The fact that Jace is a win condition is pretty irrelevant.  FateSeal could be useful but not that great.  If you want Fateseal, the extremely powerful and much cheaper wand of denial has been playable since Visions.  Basically, Jace is a Jayaemdae Tome.  Crucible is both a Jayaemdae Tome and Disrupting Scpeter in one card.

Swords to plowshares helps your dredge matchup considerably.  Good luck building the deck.  It is definately hard to build now that Weissman isn't posting lists.  Let us know what you find out and learn from your testing and tournaments.  All the best.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Jace the Mind Sculptor...is worse than Wand of Denial.

oh

my

god

-_______________________________________________________-

[limitedwhole]

Thats not what I said and you know it.

[Marske]

Having played "The Deck" and won numerous weekly tournaments with it including a top 16 at a bigger event in 2010 (not counting way way back) I can safely say I know a bit about it. That being said, "The Deck" was the first list in which I started experimenting with Jace, TMS. What I found out was, he's the real deal, what Jace brings to the table is often just what "The Deck" was missing. I cannot imagine him not being correct or being as "bad" as people believe (I'm obviously biased). I love the theory behind The Deck though, so I couldn't resist posting in this thread.

You make a valid point in "The Deck" being a mana denial deck, which is a thing most pilots overlook. You don't need to run a lot of counters because opponents most likely won't be able to cast a lot of cards anyway. That being said, Zuran orb is definitely a thing of the past, Balance is a card one should always consider but it's not an autoinclude by a long shot. Let me try and get into some of the points made in this thread:

1) 14 blue sources.  Generally 16 is considered standard.

I'd prefer having 16.

2) Crucible and Balance are auto's as is Zuran Orb in the sideboard.  Orb is sideboarded in against control decks not just aggro decks.

I think this is a trap, "The Deck" has no "auto includes" as it's a deckbuilding concept above all. The cards you mention are good at what they do no doubt about it but to call them auto includes (Especially Zorb and Balance) is stretching it a bit far.  Why you'd board in Zorb vs Control is truly beyond me, as life points are irrelevant in that matchup even more then they are everywhere else. Lands are at a premium and Zorb isn't really helping in anyway.

3) There really isn't any good reason to not play swords to plowshares.  When you look across the table and see a tarmogofy or dryad you'll understand why the deck always plays swords.

Again, you're assumptions seem way to limiting. Including STP isn't bad, but there are other solutions as well. (Deed, Edicts, PTE, EE, Threads, etc) It highly depends on what you want to do. I used to have a single STP in my board (With C-Wish main) and never was dissapointed with it. That doesn't mean it's set in stone.

4) Skeletal Scrying is an auto in the deck.

I very strongly disagree... Scrying has been "ok" for me, but hardly backbreaking. It's pretty useless against the most common matchups currently (Shops, Dredge) and even in the control mirror there are other (better) ways to draw cards.

5) You are playing way too much hate against dredge.  One of the deck sbest assets is that it doesn't have to hate dredge meaning it can have a better sideboard.  You have wastelands.  This makes them slow, just be able to make sure they don't slow dredge you and you are good.

I don't get this at all... Dredge will take you apart without a second thought if you're entire plan is "I have Wasteland" a single Bazaar Activation is enough for them to get "going". I've always ran Obeyline Maindeck (2 Leyline, Helm main, 2 Leyline Side) when I played it in 2010 and I had a pretty decent game vs dredge (Winning more often then I was losing) and Wasteland / Strip was a huge factor I won't deny that. But, alone it's definitely not enough, you need more.

6) 2 Nature's Claim+2 Lightning Bolt: chalice at 1 shuts you off.  Disenchant, Shaman and Swords is better.

Nature's claim is just about the best card you have vs Oath and Shops. Disenchant is horrible. Shaman is drastically underplayed and Swords has it's uses. I wouldn't fear Chalice @1 from Shops with The Deck though... There's always Ancient Grudge (2 for 1) as well if you're looking for something at 2 CMC.

7) 1 cunning wish is usually considered standard.  It isn't that slow because it is usually considered an "extra" answer for whatever ails you.  It can also fetch card drawing in the form of skeletal scrying.  Fetch dark blast for instance against a deck with 4 bobs and 4 lotus cobras.

Again, I'd strongly recommend you let go of the idea that "anything" (well maybe 4x FoW is pretty mandatory) is at all "standard" or "autoinclude" in The Deck. Cunning Wish is amazing when it works and I love the flexibility it gives you, don't get me wrong. But It's also a 4 CMC spell in a world where Spheres and Workshops are king.

8) Normally you want to play as many gorilla shamans as possible between main and board.  Try to fit 2 main and 2 board if you can.

It's not 1995.... This is a horrible idea, although I love Shaman. I've always found 1-2 split between either main or side (or not) was great. Seeing more of them is just plain horrible.

9) The best card you can draw against workshop and other control decks is land.  Play with the classic twenty eight sources.  SoLoMox+Library+5Strip/WAste+Blue sources

I'd say the best card is probably Crucible of Worlds, but Golem has changed that quite a bit. Lands are always very solid though..

Finally, Jace is played at sorcery speed and gives you cards over time, something l;ike scrying is playable at instant speed and gives you cards now.  For a card to be playable in the deck at sorcery speed it has to be brutally powerful like yawgmoth's will, crucible, or timetwister.  Jace is expensive and lets face it any draw spell at instant does what he does.  I think Jace it pretty weak.  Who is he good against?  He isnt any good in the control mirror and he isnt any good against shop and he isnt any good against dredge?

Jace, is pretty brutally powerfull... there's a reason people are running 3-4 in other decks including decks that win small events like Vintage Worlds. Your perception of the card can't be more wrong, there isn't a single draw spell at instant speed that kills your opponent (Ancestral when opponent has 2 cards in his/her library maybe), Bounces a creature, Disrupts the opponent AND brainstorms. Jace does it all, He's like a little swiss army knife, and he's blue.... There currently isn't a card in excistance imho that even comes close to the sheer amount of options having Jace,TMS in play gives you. All for 2UU and 1 card. He's simply amazing.

Have you ever played Jace vs shops and have him resolved? That's good game right there. They can't beat him, not ever, unless you where already way way behind and losing. Jace breaks control mirrors in half... why do you think half of the "name" players are busy either thinking up ways to play jace the fastest or deal with him ?!?! Now this might have changed a bit with Gush and Frantic (I don't really think so but that's a different point all together) There's a reason he's seeing play as 3-4 Off's AND winning matches. For a 4 mana sorcery to see that kind of play in Vintage it must be brutally effective in what it does....

Again, I'm probably the most biased person regarding Jace, TMS to have a talk with on TMD... but still the data has backed me up on this...

Just my 0.02...

[limitedwhole]

I appreciate your thoughts Marske.  There are allot of divergent opinions on The Deck.  I mean there hasn't been a standard list for years, how would we possibly know if it was any good?  Lets settle on three points on contention and try to come to the truth about those three points as I think these three points are really what is important here.

1) Zuran Orb is a thing of the past.
Zuran Orb is brought in against control decks in order to reset the board with balance.  The weissman deck is prepared to recover the other deck is not.  This is a game winner.  Weissman said that he "almost always" reset the board in the control mirror in a letter to Oscar Tan.  

2) You don't want to play allot of Gorilla Shamans.
Gorilla Shaman is brutally effective.  I just dont see playing not mad multiples.  I almost always win when this card resolves.  You can't just play a few wastelands and shut down a type one deck usually.  You really need to punish them for playing all those artifact mana sources.  When you play shaman on the first turn, the most common response by far in the control mirror is Draw-Go.  I'll admit shaman has his problems.  Oath of Druids.  Dark Confidant and you dont have swords but have balance (should have thought about that before I played Shaman), This Juggernaut is big, this ain't no stax deck.  So to some extent I can see metagames where he is weaker.  But still...you can just draw-go someone eevery time.

3) Jace:  If you resolve a JAce do you wuin?  Probobably.  I don't lose when I resolve Cyclopean Tomb either.  Note I am not trying to be snarky here as Jace is obviously better than tomb.  If you resolve aJace against Workshop you win.  I win against workshop just by not dying to there first Juggernaut or Golem.  I play a wasteland and a gorilla shaman and the game is over.  I would assume that when you resolve Jace against workshop, you have already weathered the initial storm of spells coming form them?  At that point anythuing that cleans up will win right?

Basically, it my belief that if you don't stick to the core strategy you might as well play a different deck.  If someone says that isn't any good and the deck isnt viable thats fine.  But that doesn't mean you change the core strategy. 

[ReubenG]

Good discussion on card choices; that was my hope with the thread.

@ Marske:

I agree with you comments.  How was having 2 Leyline of the Void and 1 Helm main deck? I have seen this in other decks and wondered if having only 2 leylines made it worth while or did they become early and late game dead cards?  Also, could you post or link to the version you have tested, it is always nice to see other lists.


@ limitedwhole:

Zuran Orb seem to never have been a maindeck choice and isn't a wish cunning wish target.  I can see it allowing a more dramatic board clear with balance, by sacing your land to clear all, playing your land and move on from there and recover easier with a crucible.  3 cards to put together only in post board situations which other combos could probably do easier like vault/key or Obeyline, yes more mana cost, but 2 cards rather than 3.

I find you can create a similar situation with JMS.  Many times I find mid-game, I have worked on their mana to the point using Jace's fateseal and sitting back will win the game.  You can then continue to deny mana, while additionally affecting their ability to draw into mana or answers.  I feel this is stronger than a board reset with balance and orb as it controls more than just mana production post rest, it denies answers as well.

I like having shaman but have contemplated whether EE is just better.  I know loosing a beater matters in some matchups, but EE is more efficient and can hit more stuff.  It doesn't stick around like shaman, but could be recurred with an Academy Ruins inclusion.  Right now I run a mix of both.  I don't see running more than 2.

[Marske]

They never were dead because you can hardcast them pretty easy. Which makes the first tutor you resolve potentially lethal. Since I'm pressed for time I'll just leave my decklist from 6 months ago.

RND - The Deck
As suggested by M. van Zundert

Maindeck:

Mana Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Non-Mana Artifact
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Helm of Obedience

Planeswalkers
1 Jace, The Mindsculptor

Enchantments
2  Leyline of the Void

Creatures
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Sower of Temptation

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Brainstorm
1 Cunning Wish
1 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind Twist
1 Ponder
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Twister

Lands
1 Library Of Alexandria
4 Misty Rainforest
3 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Snowcovered Island
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Annul
2 Leyline Of The Void
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Serenity
1 Fire / Ice
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Extirpate
1 Pithing Needle
1 The Abyss
1 Elspeth, Knights Errant
1 Stroke of Genius

[Mindstab_Thrull]

A little over a year ago, Patrick Chapin posted on SCG a version of The Deck he'd been looking at. I posted a version Marske and I had discussed here http://forums.starcitygames.com//showthread.php?35727-Discuss-Innovations-The-Deck-2009-Bringing-Back-the-Glor&p=606663&viewfull=1#post606663 and got his feedback on it. There seems to be some varying opinions on what The Deck's role actually is. I'm not talking from the "control vs beatdown" angle but more like what actual deck style it is. Keep in mind that there is a lot of crossover in blue-based decklists, and this is also from 2009. Chapin (and Marske, both who have discussed The Deck with Weissman), as I understand things, both believe The Deck to be a five-colour mana denial deck. I disagree but I do admit that there is generally enough mana denial to make that route an option during play. It also, however, very much have a 'silver bullet' feel to it, unlike decks like Oath of Druids. There's also a lot of flexibility in exactly what cards you *can* run. I have a Relic of Progenitus main largely due to Dredge, Welder, and Yawgmoth's Will, for example. Running Crucible main lets me help against my Shop matchups as well as recur my Strip effects - which means I can actually run less Strips, since I can replay them from the Graveyard due to Crucible, giving me extra mana slots for other things. I don't suggest this is the optimal list - JMS hadn't come out yet, for example - but I would suggest from that list, the following slots are malleable:

 Misdirection
 Moat
 The Abyss
 Balance
 Pithing Needle
 Mind Twist
 Relic of Progenitus
 Swords to Plowshares
 Rebuild
 Sphinx of Steel Wind
 Sensei's Divining Top
 Crucible of Worlds
 Regrowth

.. as well as the relevant mana slots to support these cards. That brings you upwards of about 16 slots or so to fiddle with, allowing for quite a bit of customization. How do you figure out what to add? By figuring out what you need to beat and figuring out what the best tools for the job are. I was looking for tools that are useful in general but better against certain matchups for the maindeck. Balance is a good example here as I run only two creatures, making it Wrath of God against Fish, but if that's not a deck you expect to face, or you have a better tool for the job, by all means cut it for something else.

Most decks will have a Tinkerbot; I chose Sphinx because the lifelink is occasionally relevant, and the fact that he flies means if I drop Moat, he's the only Tinkerbot that can actually attack. He can also get me ahead against Dragon Oath between his combination of lifelink, vigilance, and protection from Green+Red. There's other reasons too, but that was enough against multiple matchups to make me want the Sphinx over anything else. (Titan supports the mana denial idea better, and if you play it that way, Titan's a better call. This then generally means adding City of Brass to the manabase so you don't lose all your lands. Be careful of the 'circular logic' trap - running one card because you're running another card, but running that second card because of the first one - when it comes to deckbuilding. Sometimes it's right, like the old Illusions of Grandeur/Donate lists, but don't get caught in "I play one so I have to play the other" without good reason.)

The thought process can be seen here: http://forums.starcitygames.com//showthread.php?35727-Discuss-Innovations-The-Deck-2009-Bringing-Back-the-Glor&p=607231&viewfull=1#post607231. Keep something like this in mind when you look at what to put in; this is very relevant to how it's built. This is why if you look at Deckcheck.net or tournament reports over the last few years, you'll see different builds championed by different people. I don't think there really is one right way to build it; mine was built when you're looking at a 'general' metagame and don't want to rule anything out. If you have a specific metagame in mind, like what Marske does, then you can build it a certain way instead. Note he has enough room to fit a combo kill in, because he knows what kind of threats to expect when he sits down, and what *won't* be played.

Also, keep one other thing in mind. Just because Weissman came up with a decklist doesn't mean his is the most optimal version anymore, even for his own metagame. You're looking at a list that goes back to 2006. That's four years ago. Since then, we've had Planar Chaos, Future Sight, Scars of Mirrodin, and the following blocks: Lorwyn, Shards of Alara, Zendikar. We've also had 10th Edition, M10, M11, and some major rules changes such as no more Damage on the Stack or Mana Burn. I suggest if you want to look at playing The Deck and see what an updated list looks like, you look at people like Chapin, Menendian, and Marske for your starting point. Look at what kind of metagames they expect. Feel free to use the thought process in the second link I posted as a first draft. If you don't know what to expect, think about what kind of players will be likely to show up and what this means for a metagame, and sketch out a rough draft accordingly. Playtest it (MWS or proxies, for example) and then you'll have an idea. Do I expect to hear about ideas from Weissman? Sure. Do I expect to hear "I have a great new version of The Deck now!" from him? To be honest, not really. Last I heard, he was effectively in retirement, playing only a couple times a year. Other players have taken up his cause since then. Look at what they do, look for the reasonings, and go from there.

Good luck!

[ReubenG]

@ Mindstab_Thrull,

Thanks for the post the information helps me think of other options available and helps think about what cards I want in the build.


@ Marske

Thanks for posting the list.  Did you find Timetwister effective with a lot of decks running Will?  I know when I last played I never minded getting twisted as more cards are always nice, but wasn't sure if it was the effect I wanted since most testing has my deck wanting to run them out of cards and drop Jace to fateseal them to ultimate.

Also, Annul is an interesting choice in the board and potential wish target.  Did you find it to be an answer against the timevault decks that could vault&key the same turn?

[limitedwhole]

Leyline Main seems terrible.  I would try and find a better way to beat dredge.  I have been playing living wish for Tabernacle.
You don't need Crucible of Worlds to use Zuran Orb/Balance, your deck has more land than your opponents.  Just hold back a City of Brass.

[Marske]

Leyline Main seems terrible.  I would try and find a better way to beat dredge.  I have been playing living wish for Tabernacle.
You don't need Crucible of Worlds to use Zuran Orb, your deck has more land than your opponents.  Just hold back a City of Brass.

You do realize the zombies have haste right?!! Wtf does tabernacle do?! Seriously leyline helm was good when I played it. I ran crucible to beat shop and have a solid mana denial plan. Zuran orb is complete and utter garbage.

@reubenG
Twister was ok, I'm not sure if I would run it now. It's probably still the best reset button you have though.

Annul was my weapon vs shops as it stops everything for just U. Which is very good obv.

[limitedwhole]

Nope the Zombies don't have haste.  Have to receive haste from other cards.  Tabernacle equals no slow dredge.  You can also, kill your own shaman with the tabernacle to pull the bridges.

[Daenyth]

I think he's referring to the FKZ kill, which I think is common right now. Even if it's only say, 25% of dredge, it would suck pretty hard to whiff on your hate.

[ReubenG]

I like leyline of the void as dredge hate because it also serves as stax hate to keep recurring wastelands.  Adding the helm gives you a better tinker target against both of these matchs as sundering titan is dead agains both dredge and stax.  I don't think tabernacle is fast enough to beat dredge, especially since locally I see fatesticher in dredge which speeds it up considerably.  Since I am taking the recommendation to use cunning wish I plan to run rav trap since it won't have additional cost after a wish post dredge.  I haven't tested obeyline main, think it would be a good option for a combo finish and strengthens game 1 dredge, but not sure I could find the 3 slots to fit in the main.

@Marske
I agree twister is the best reset, but I don't think suits my build with life from the loam. 

I have natures claim right now which is more reactive than proactive was claim available when you ran that list?  Annul is something to consider since it's blue and pitches to FOW, but my testing seems to find that shops decks will get thier stuff down quicker than you can find your answers to actually use annul to counter them.  I find myself needing to remove a lock peice more than countering them.  Maybe a good wish target in the board though with vault/key.

[limitedwhole]

You have wasteland.  Dredge is slow when you play wasteland.  I don't see why people keep saying dredge is too fast.  When I play wasteland I have plenty of time.  When I can't find one I have to have a plan B.  I used to like Cunning Wish for Trap, but people have been running the untargetability leyline, so I switched back to extirpate and just recur it with Regrowth, Reclaim, and Yawgmoth's Will.

Leyline isn't any good against Workshop, for real, if you were going to add a card into your deck for workshop it wouldn't be leyline.

Chapin admitted that his world's deck sucked.  So many expensive jank bombs at sorcery speed!  I'm sure BRian Weissman didnt tell him that over the phone.  

Jace is only good when you play Duress/Thoughtseize and you have a reason to play his like 4 Bob.  Jace is a Tez specific card, although he might be good in mono-blue.  I would never even contemplate adding Jace to a deck that didn't run Duress/Seize.  You can't play him into pierce, REB or drain.  You have to have Duress to pull counters.  I think he sucks even with Duress.  Jace is a Tor Giant.

There are two schools in type 1 control: The Weissman School and The Menendian School.

Weissman School:
1) Card advantage wins.
2. A control deck is good if it threatens interaction with its opponent on any given turn and can make the right plays.
3) Mana denial wins.
4) Land Development is key to early game.
5) Bombs that generate overwhelming card advantage are good.

Menendian School:
1) CA does not win and is but a means to an end.
2) A control deck is good if it generates a velocity of early spells that utilize its mana early.
3) Immunity from land destruction wins.
4. Card quality is key to the early game.
5) Bombs are bad and you should play as few as possible and be reliant on tutors to find them.

[Delha]

There are two schools in type 1 control: The Weissman School and The Menendian School.

Weissman School:
1) Card advantage wins.
2. A control deck is good if it threatens interaction with its opponent on any given turn and can make the right plays.
3) Mana denial wins.
4) Land Development is key to early game.
5) Bombs that generate overwhelming card advantage are good.

Menendian School:
1) CA does not win and is but a means to an end.
2) A control deck is good if it generates a velocity of early spells that utilize its mana early.
3) Immunity from land destruction wins.
4. Card quality is key to the early game.
5) Bombs are bad and you should play as few as possible and be reliant on tutors to find them.

I'm very curious to see Steve's response to this post.

[ReubenG]

Jace is only good when you play Duress/Thoughtseize and you have a reason to play his like 4 Bob.  Jace is a Tez specific card, although he might be good in mono-blue.  I would never even contemplate adding Jace to a deck that didn't run Duress/Seize.  You can't play him into pierce, REB or drain.  You have to have Duress to pull counters.  I think he sucks even with Duress.  Jace is a Tor Giant.

I disagree with this.  Getting a Jace through a drain, REB, or FOW is no different than any other sorcery speed bomb like Will or Tinker.  You have to play for that window, bait them out of counters, deny them the mana to play them, or disrupt their hand with a mind twist or balance or as you suggested duress effects.  Yes he your opponent can deal with Jace, just like any other sorcery bomb, but he inteacts with the game state in a way no other sorcery bomb does.  When he lands on the board he can deal with a creature threat, manipulate your opponents draw, or filter your hand and replace himself.  He gives you all of that as well as being a win condition.  Saying he sucks even with a duress because of counter and permanent destruction is like saying Tinker, Will, TimeVault, Tezz, ect suck as well.

[Troy_Costisick]

I disagree with this.  Getting a Jace through a drain, REB, or FOW is no different than any other sorcery speed bomb like Will or Tinker.

Well... Tinker and YWill cost 1 less to play and are better cards than Jace, so it is a bit different.  YWill is also not vulnerable to Red Blasts, and that is significant.  I don't think you're making a very good comparison here.

Yes he your opponent can deal with Jace, just like any other sorcery bomb, but he inteacts with the game state in a way no other sorcery bomb does.  When he lands on the board he can deal with a creature threat, manipulate your opponents draw, or filter your hand and replace himself.

If we're just talking sorcery bombs, Balance interacts with the board in a way Jace never could and can generate way more card advantage immediately than Jace is capable of.  It can also deal with creatures and manipulate your opponent's access to cards but in a much more explosive way than Jace can.  The problem with Balance is, of course, it's in the wrong color right now. 

Saying he sucks even with a duress because of counter and permanent destruction is like saying Tinker, Will, TimeVault, Tezz, ect suck as well.

Jace's power, like all cards, is dictated by the metagame.  There may come a time when Jace does suck.  There was a time when DSC was good.  Now it pretty much sucks (I hate that word because it's undefined and most of the time, really isn't true).  The metagame can and will shift, and Jace will have to be evaluated based on the conditions of the new meta. 

[ReubenG]

Well... Tinker and YWill cost 1 less to play and are better cards than Jace, so it is a bit different.  YWill is also not vulnerable to Red Blasts, and that is significant.  I don't think you're making a very good comparison here. .

I should have stated this differently. My response was to address limitedwhole's accretion that

You can't play him into pierce, REB or drain.  You have to have Duress to pull counters.  I think he sucks even with Duress.  Jace is a Tor Giant.

I was trying to suggest that Jace is like any sorcery speed bomb you have to find the correct time to play any sorcery and don't necessary need duress for these sorceries to be playable and good.  I wasn't trying to compare Jace to Ywill or Tinker directly; only to point out other sorceries are played without duress effects and are considered good cards.

If we're just talking sorcery bombs, Balance interacts with the board in a way Jace never could and can generate way more card advantage immediately than Jace is capable of.  It can also deal with creatures and manipulate your opponent's access to cards but in a much more explosive way than Jace can.  The problem with Balance is, of course, it's in the wrong color right now.

I agree, Balance interacts quite differently in the fact that it handles multiple creatures, attacks the opponents hand directly, and can attack the mana base.  Jace's effects are more subtle effects, but have the opportunity to do so incrementally over time.  The bonuses of being blue and the choice of using the effect needed at the time.  I have been testing both as I have access to white, and found they compliment each other nicely.   

Jace's power, like all cards, is dictated by the metagame.  There may come a time when Jace does suck.  There was a time when DSC was good.  Now it pretty much sucks (I hate that word because it's undefined and most of the time, really isn't true).  The metagame can and will shift, and Jace will have to be evaluated based on the conditions of the new meta. 

I agree cards need continual evaluation in an ever changing metagame.  New ideas need to be tried.  I feel Jace is a strong card in this deck and fits with the mana denial plan, and provides a great way to limit the opponent from drawing into mana as you work toward his ultimate which wins the game.

My response was mainly to challenge the accretion that

I think he sucks even with Duress.  Jace is a Tor Giant.