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Author Topic: GT10: A Delicate Balance  (Read 9111 times)
Stormanimagus
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« on: October 14, 2010, 10:27:41 am »

Hi all,

so I figured now was the time to unveil a hybrid deck idea I've been having a great deal of success with on MWS. I've been thinking about ways to abuse Gush-bond and I truly think I've found the "delicate balance" of cards to make the Storm combo part work in tandem with a controlling shell that has very solid game vs. MUD Prison. I still don't think the match is favorable and the win %'s obviously fall considerably on when you lose the coin flip, but I do think that many of the weaknesses of traditional Gro (preordains + dryads) has been mitigated by design that better suites a shop heavy metagame.

I am interested to hear the opinions of the Vintage Elite on this list and I would like a couple specific questions answered.

1. Should I add Vault/Key (I was running it for a while, but found the 2 slots it took up to be prohibitive and that it was often not the kill I went for)

2. Any card choices in general that you don't like? SB choices? I was a bit shakey on Wheel Of Fortune but other than that I think every choice is pretty optimal.

3. MD or SB cards I've overlooked that don't appear at all in the list?

4. Enough game against Dredge?

5. Need another Tinker target for the Fish/Dredge matchup?

Ok, without further adieu, here is:

GT10



Lands (16):
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

Artifact Creatures (1):
1 Myr Battlesphere

Creatures (3):
3 Trygon Predator

Enchantments (1):
1 Fastbond

Instants (17):
4 Gush
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Nature’s Claim
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (13):
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Tinker
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils Of Agony


SB
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Volcanic Island
3 REB
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 10:54:29 am by Stormanimagus » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2010, 03:15:03 pm »

Why would anyone run Battlesphere as a tinker target?
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2010, 03:18:35 pm »

Why would anyone run Battlesphere as a tinker target?
To generate fodder for Wire/Smoky?
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2010, 03:45:11 pm »

Why would anyone run Battlesphere as a tinker target?

In the current meta, I think I'd rather have Sphere than anything else. You're left with board presence after spot removal, it's quite a fast clock, it makes Tanglewire into a bit of a sick joke, since the wire hits nothing else, it can block lots of aggro Golems and fish creatures (giving you time to execute your game plan) and the like, as Delha mentioned it's good fodder for Smokestack. What else do you want vs Shops? Inky sucks since Karn is so popular lately, DSC is killed by every spell on the planet, and Sphinx isn't fast enough and dies to StpS and Duplicant.
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2010, 04:46:02 pm »

Yes to all the above regarding Battlesphere. Another important side-note about him is that you can more easily drain into him than any other Tinker bot. Believe me when I say that this WILL be relevant. Especially if they bounce him instead of kill him.

I'd really like to know what people think of the absence of Vault/Key in my list?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 04:49:51 pm by Stormanimagus » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 05:25:25 pm »

Yes to all the above regarding Battlesphere. Another important side-note about him is that you can more easily drain into him than any other Tinker bot. Believe me when I say that this WILL be relevant. Especially if they bounce him instead of kill him.

I'd really like to know what people think of the absence of Vault/Key in my list?

Your deck seems to be 1/2 GAT one half combo.

Vault key is bad in both of those decks, so keeping it out is probably the correct call. 
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 05:37:14 pm »

Yes to all the above regarding Battlesphere. Another important side-note about him is that you can more easily drain into him than any other Tinker bot. Believe me when I say that this WILL be relevant. Especially if they bounce him instead of kill him.

I'd really like to know what people think of the absence of Vault/Key in my list?

Your deck seems to be 1/2 GAT one half combo.

Vault key is bad in both of those decks, so keeping it out is probably the correct call. 

If you were to cut Timetwister and Wheel it would appear the deck is just a gush control style deck, where I think vault/key would be fine in for a few reasons. One it is still the best 2 card combo, and two you are already running tinker and tutors making it easy to find/assemble. Just because you are now using Gushs as a draw engine doesn't mean vault/key can't be utilized.
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 07:44:31 pm »

Why would anyone run Battlesphere as a tinker target?

Against any kind of aggro deck, inlcuding Shop Agro, it's a real problem.  Aside from Hurkyl's and Rebuild, there's not much that can take care of it easily.  I think I'd put it SB and play Inky main, but that's a personal preference.  Anyway, it's a good card.

Peace,

-Troy
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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2010, 12:46:05 am »

I played against storm, who was using that list. I have to say that the balance between combo and control is pretty good in that deck.
I really like the use of drains instead of spellpierce (given that this build already has thoughseize).

When talking with storm about his build, my only concern regarding it was the "2 draw seven" without key/vault. I felt like those could "fizzle" (meaning not win on the spot) too often.
Thinking more about this deck, maybe an interesting option could be to :
- Remove the 3 Trygon : with only 3 Trygon as creature and not jace to protect, the aggro mode is not as interesting as in the latest tezz build also using dark conf and being more controlish,
- Remove 1 forest (not so sure about that, perhaps just remove one thoughseize and replace the forest with a volcanic island...)
- Add 1 ancient grudge
- Add 1 rebuild (not so sure either about that, perhaps one natural's claim or just annother ancient grudge)
- Add 1 key
- Add 1 vault

IMO, Key/Vault in such a build is too good to omit. Then it is also very good against shop. And with 1 natural's claim, 1 ancient grudge, 1 hurkyl's and 1 rebuild, I guess this build would have enough tools to handle shop.
Sure, if you add vault/key, given that you play drain and regrowth, you also have to find a spot for gift ungiven (or for intuition maybe)...

This is a more "comboish" road but I think it goes pretty well with the other choices (as drain, regrowth, draw sevens, thoughseize, ...)

Finally and regarding battlesphere as a Tinker Target, I think Storm has a very good idea given today's meta. Especially with 3 drains main.

Just my 2 cents.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 01:00:49 am by beder » Logged
Stormanimagus
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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2010, 01:45:02 am »

I played against storm, who was using that list. I have to say that the balance between combo and control is pretty good in that deck.
I really like the use of drains instead of spellpierce (given that this build already has thoughseize).

When talking with storm about his build, my only concern regarding it was the "2 draw seven" without key/vault. I felt like those could "fizzle" (meaning not win on the spot) too often.
Thinking more about this deck, maybe an interesting option could be to :
- Remove the 3 Trygon : with only 3 Trygon as creature and not jace to protect, the aggro mode is not as interesting as in the latest tezz build also using dark conf and being more controlish,
- Remove 1 forest (not so sure about that, perhaps just remove one thoughseize and replace the forest with a volcanic island...)
- Add 1 ancient grudge
- Add 1 rebuild (not so sure either about that, perhaps one natural's claim or just annother ancient grudge)
- Add 1 key
- Add 1 vault

IMO, Key/Vault in such a build is too good to omit. Then it is also very good against shop. And with 1 natural's claim, 1 ancient grudge, 1 hurkyl's and 1 rebuild, I guess this build would have enough tools to handle shop.
Sure, if you add vault/key, given that you play drain and regrowth, you also have to find a spot for gift ungiven (or for intuition maybe)...

This is a more "comboish" road but I think it goes pretty well with the other choices (as drain, regrowth, draw sevens, thoughseize, ...)

Finally and regarding battlesphere as a Tinker Target, I think Storm has a very good idea given today's meta. Especially with 3 drains main.

Just my 2 cents.



First off, thanks for the words of wisdom in response to my thread beder. You are truly a great player to play against and a good role model for the community on sportsmanship.

Here was my thinking on your two main points of suggestion:

1. Draw 7's -- Thus far, in my experience, Draw 7's have won me the game solely on the power of Gush. I think the thing that players fail to realize is that you don't always HAVE to win the turn that you play a Draw 7. It is a calculated risk and certainly becomes worse vs. the Mirror/other combo decks, but sometimes you can use a draw 7 to simply "set up" the win when you are already even the tiniest bit ahead on resources on the board. But this is sorta a moot point as I usually only use Draw 7's when I'm pretty sure I'll win the same turn (i.e Fastbond in play or a lot of resources on the board). Perhaps I'm wrong on these, but I think they are pretty crucial to the overall broken plays this deck gets on a consistent basis.

2. Trygon Predator -- Perhaps Vault/Key can replace these? I sorta doubt it though. I run these MD because MUD has traditionally been the hardest match-up for Gush-Bond decks. While Myr Battlesphere helps to mitigate this fact, it is still a really long uphill battle. I want the best hate-cards in my MD for my weakest match-up and I really just don't see any card comparing to Trygon Predator. Rebuild is certainly interesting, but, in the end, I don't find it to be strong enough to supplant Predator.

Also, I'll just throw this in. I don't think Vault/Key belongs in this deck because you already run a pretty consistent way to "win now." I know it's another way, but it requires 2 tutors to work often and if I have 2 tutors I'll usually be able to to Yawg Win anyway. It hogs two slots that you don't need it to.

Why doesn't TPS run it? Well, because you won't FIND the combo unless you could have won with Yawg Win.

Why DOES traditional Tezz run it? Well, they don't have the storm shell to support Tendrils so they NEED it. Traditional Tezz and even Jace Control are CONTROL DECKS.

People seem to be under the assumption that because I run Drains I am a "Control Deck." This is simply inaccurate. I am a combo. Plain and simple. I use the Drains to fuel big turns and to help with stopping key threats, but I haven't heard of many "Control" decks running Tinker for Myr Battlesphere (a removable Tinker Target) or Draw 7's or Gushes.

Those 3 elements alone make my deck a more combo-centric deck. Control decks do not like sacrificing resources on the board (lands) for cards very often. They like to keep those resources on the board AND get cards, but perhaps get those cards a tad slower (Dark Confidant). They do not want ANY card parity (Twister & Wheel) and they do not want to see their win con hosed by a qasali pridemage (Myr Battlesphere) because now those Null Rods on the table look like GGs.

I'm simply pointing out that my deck acts like a combo deck and so Time Vault/Key probably makes less sense. I'm not ruling it out, but I see no reason to make room for it as yet.

-Storm
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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2010, 03:04:45 am »

@ Storm : thanks for your kind message Wink

Those points are certainly valid. And I am not even sure that key vault would improve this build.
But I see a difference between key/vault in that kind of build and key/vault in TPS :
- even this deck is about control, you run more control tools than TPS => the game may last longer - you have a sufficent toolkit to deal with early and mid game - increasing your chance to draw one piece of the combo, so that any tutors can go for a very simple win,
- you have a draw engine - the gush one - that can very easilly draw you one piece of the combo, meaning again that any tutors will become deadly.

I agree with you on the following point : key vault does not belong in this deck as much as it belongs in control deck. This is clearly not as necessary and at the same time the overall architecture of the deck does not allow it to be as powerfull.
But as for "Steel City Vault", I think it may still be interesting... But you are right, it is borderline => strengthening the combo engine or adding another win condition... don't know which is the best.

When it comes to "Trygon", then I am really not sure. Especially given that you are the combo deck. I feel like some other tools could perhaps help you a lot. At least as much as trygon given that you are the combo player.
Bouncing the board with a rebuild/hurkyll's, playing all your artifact and then a draw 7 may be very nice good against shop. Even if you don't win on the spot.
Then and when it comes to destroying artifact,  I feel like ancient grudge can be as reliable as trygon but faster. But perhaps I am not 100% objective, I am like the biggest fan of ancient grudge Wink
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2010, 03:23:56 am »

I haven't tested it but I am not yet sold on this one. One of the advantages of gush was that it could play a very tight mana base, as 2 lands was all you need. This allowed for less dead cards and to constantly gush into new bombs instead of just lands. Your build uses like 6 additional mana sources to standard GAT builds, the artifact acceleration as well as mana drain does not synergize with gush. With so much mana accel and drain wouldn't it not be just better to play gifts+jace instead of the gushes?

Furthermore, the nice thing of GAT is that it can switch roles. It can combo out as well as slow play the game constantly beating with a 3/3 growing dryad. This, your dec can't.
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2010, 04:27:37 am »

Thanks for posting this discussion, Storm. I have been working on some Gush ideas myself, but do not have a list that I feel entirely comfortable with yet.

First, on Myr Battle Sphere. This card is something that I've been using as my Tinker target ever since it has been printed. And I have to say, I've been quite impressed. As always, the correct Tinker Target is a function of the metagame. But against MUD, I believe this is the Robot I would most like to have. Good to see you've picked up on it, too.

Now, for Trygon Predator. On the one hand, I'm not thrilled to be playing a spell in any Gush deck that does not leverage the card draw off Gush. I'd be happier with something that lets me take advantage of all those cards I am drawing. But on the other hand, MUD is a monster right now. And it may well be the case that it calls for maindeck choices to be made bearing that deck in mind. So, while they don't seem thrilling, these Trygons may well be correct for the maindeck in today's metagame.

But no matter how good MUD may be, I really loathe running a maindeck Basic Forest. In Tyrant Oath, the presence of Gush made running Orchard difficult, and that is a combo piece. In some Gush Storm decks, even Academy is omitted because it is not an Island. And so I doubt that Basic Forest could be a card that we want in the main deck.
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2010, 06:26:26 am »

[People seem to be under the assumption that because I run Drains I am a "Control Deck." This is simply inaccurate. I am a combo. Plain and simple. I use the Drains to fuel big turns and to help with stopping key threats, but I haven't heard of many "Control" decks running Tinker for Myr Battlesphere (a removable Tinker Target) or Draw 7's or Gushes.
-Storm

Storm, not sure if you are directing this at me or not but the reason I said your deck looks like it could be a gush style control deck was because you are running 4 Force, 4 Seize, 3 Drain, 1 Natures Claim and 3 Tygon Predator with a card draw engine.  Of that The Predators, Natures Claims, and Drains are very reactive. It almost feels like your deck doesn't have an identity because on one hand you are running reactive cards, but then on the other hand you threw in 2 draw 7s and a Tendrils finish and now we are saying it is a combo deck plain and simple. I feel like the fact that you are even running a tinker/robot is a nod to the fact that this deck can play and probably does play more of the control role. If it were so plain and simple that you are a combo deck why are you running Predators and the Natures claim main? Combo has traditionally stuck to bounce to deal with shops since it is a storm enabler as welll.
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2010, 10:00:22 am »

On the subject of "combo" and "control" decks:

I think it can lead to mistakes in deck building when a person decides that a "control" card does or does not fit into our "combo" deck or vice versa.  Similarly, setting out to build a "control" deck can lead to problems too.  I find it better to focus on the cards we are playing, the strategy we are attempting to execute, and how we plan to win the game.  Being a "control" deck isn't really a strategy in and of itself.  "Halt the opponent just long enough to assemble Vault/Key" however is a plan to win the game.

So how does this deck win?  Well at a first glance it appears to be a Tendrils-based deck, which would mean it is looking to use Will, a combination of powerful card draw, and the Gushbond engine to achieve a lethal amount of storm.  There are alternate ways to win, like Tinker, but that is fine.  At least this is my take on it and I could be wrong.

But one such problem is that our Tinker starts to lose focus on our deck's goal.  If we are attempting to achieve a lethal storm, that Tinker is a rather weak card.  If our focus is to remain on the end result of a lethal storm count, it would seem wise to perhaps include Memory Jar - thus our Tinker can help us better achieve lethal storm and maintains the deck's focus on winning the game.  This is one thing I would consider to help refine the deck and make it more consistent with its goals. 

Similarly, Trygon Predator is a card that I generally do not want to see if my goal is to Tendrils the opponent to death.  It is nice against MUD to have an alternate win condition when our primary win condition is weak, but we also must consider that our primary win condition itself becomes much weaker when our Trygons just don't help us achieve lethal storm.  As noted I would strongly consider playing bounce spells, which simultaneously satisfy as board control against Workshops but are much better in general if our goal is to produce lethal storm.
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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2010, 10:52:31 am »

On the subject of "combo" and "control" decks:

I think it can lead to mistakes in deck building when a person decides that a "control" card does or does not fit into our "combo" deck or vice versa.  Similarly, setting out to build a "control" deck can lead to problems too.  I find it better to focus on the cards we are playing, the strategy we are attempting to execute, and how we plan to win the game.  Being a "control" deck isn't really a strategy in and of itself.  "Halt the opponent just long enough to assemble Vault/Key" however is a plan to win the game.

So how does this deck win?  Well at a first glance it appears to be a Tendrils-based deck, which would mean it is looking to use Will, a combination of powerful card draw, and the Gushbond engine to achieve a lethal amount of storm.  There are alternate ways to win, like Tinker, but that is fine.  At least this is my take on it and I could be wrong.

But one such problem is that our Tinker starts to lose focus on our deck's goal.  If we are attempting to achieve a lethal storm, that Tinker is a rather weak card.  If our focus is to remain on the end result of a lethal storm count, it would seem wise to perhaps include Memory Jar - thus our Tinker can help us better achieve lethal storm and maintains the deck's focus on winning the game.  This is one thing I would consider to help refine the deck and make it more consistent with its goals. 

Similarly, Trygon Predator is a card that I generally do not want to see if my goal is to Tendrils the opponent to death.  It is nice against MUD to have an alternate win condition when our primary win condition is weak, but we also must consider that our primary win condition itself becomes much weaker when our Trygons just don't help us achieve lethal storm.  As noted I would strongly consider playing bounce spells, which simultaneously satisfy as board control against Workshops but are much better in general if our goal is to produce lethal storm.

Here's the thing. In my view, anything other than Trygon Predator is like bringing a knife to a gunfight vs. MUD. I mean, this is a metagame deck. It is not as fast as it could be, but I also run 3 SB REBs for the Mirror/Blue match-up so I think that match-up should be winnable too. I dunno. I might try some config of Vault/Key and Grudge + Rebuild, but I'm still not sold on that at all.

Also, the reason I'm not a huge fan of Memory Jar is that it costs another precious slot in the deck. It may be warranted with the Drains in there, but I can't be sure. Again, most of these choices would be specific metagame calls.

I do NOT, however, consider Myr Battlesphere a metagame card. I'd run it against most every deck. Against Fish it is weakest as they can Pridemage it away, but it also swings for a Ton so I'd still only put it slightly below Inkwell and Sphinx in that match-up.

I dunno, I'll take some of these suggestions and try different configs but I truly think Trygon is the best card vs. MUD so why not run the best?

-Storm
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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2010, 11:06:17 am »

Ok guys,

If I were to go the route of taking out Predators they'd leave the 75 entirely and my new plan would be the bounce plan. This would necessitate adding Jar to the deck and definitely Rebuild, but I do not really think it necessitates Ancient Grudge particularly. Here's a 75 you could mess with that would better abuse the "combo" elements of this deck. I'll need to see if it still beats MUD though for sure.

Gush-Tendrils 2K10

Lands (15):
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifact Creatures (1):
1 Myr Battlesphere

Artifacts (12):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Memory Jar

Enchantments (1):
1 Fastbond

Instants (18):
4 Gush
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Nature’s Claim
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven




Sorceries (13):
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Tinker
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils Of Agony

SB
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Volcanic Island
3 REB
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rebuild

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« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2010, 01:15:57 pm »

Here's the thing. In my view, anything other than Trygon Predator is like bringing a knife to a gunfight vs. MUD. I mean, this is a metagame deck.

If this is a metagame deck, then perhaps my initial understanding of it is off.

Let us suppose that our interest is to play a Gush deck with heavy considerations for Workshops.  Then it would make perfect sense to play Trygon Predator, as there are few cards better than Trygon at defeating Workshops at the moment.. 

But if we have resigned ourselves to playing a deck specifically designed to beating Workshops, then it would seem like Tendrils is out of place.  As a general rule of thumb, playing 10 spells in one turn can be difficult with a Sphere of Resistance on the board, and depending on how strongly we want to defeat Workshops it would be wise to go out of our way to include ways to win that are better suited against prison.

In that light I would root strongly in favor of Vault/Key, which not only still wins the game through most of our opponent's cards but also has particular strengths with other cards already in the deck - Tinker and Mana Drain spring to mind.  And Vault/Key seems to be a proper way to take advantage of a Gushbond engine so that the core of our deck remains in harmony with itself.
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« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2010, 01:18:17 pm »

Here's the thing. In my view, anything other than Trygon Predator is like bringing a knife to a gunfight vs. MUD. I mean, this is a metagame deck.

If this is a metagame deck, then perhaps my initial understanding of it is off.

Let us suppose that our interest is to play a Gush deck with heavy considerations for Workshops.  Then it would make perfect sense to play Trygon Predator, as there are few cards better than Trygon at defeating Workshops at the moment.. 

But if we have resigned ourselves to playing a deck specifically designed to beating Workshops, then it would seem like Tendrils is out of place.  As a general rule of thumb, playing 10 spells in one turn can be difficult with a Sphere of Resistance on the board, and depending on how strongly we want to defeat Workshops it would be wise to go out of our way to include ways to win that are better suited against prison.

In that light I would root strongly in favor of Vault/Key, which not only still wins the game through most of our opponent's cards but also has particular strengths with other cards already in the deck - Tinker and Mana Drain spring to mind.  And Vault/Key seems to be a proper way to take advantage of a Gushbond engine so that the core of our deck remains in harmony with itself.

What's the actual kill? Once you have infinite turns, what do you kill with in the proposed deck?
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« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2010, 05:24:23 pm »

So after some consideration, I believe that Trygon Predator probably does NOT fit in this deck. I realize now that once you add Draw 7's you are making your approach a bit more "all in" so why not run the cards that make that more consistent? I believe that Rebuild + Hurkyl's should be able to get the job done when you have sufficient artifact accel, but I will have to see if this deck can beat Null Rod MUD. Anyway, here's my updated version:

Gush-Tendrils 2K10

Lands (15):
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifact Creatures (1):
1 Myr Battlesphere

Artifacts (12):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Memory Jar

Enchantments (1):
1 Fastbond

Instants (18):
4 Gush
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Nature’s Claim
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven

Sorceries (13):
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Tinker
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils Of Agony

SB
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Volcanic Island
3 REB
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rebuild

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« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2010, 07:47:09 pm »

fight spheres with the battle sphere!
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« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2010, 03:34:59 pm »

Stormanimagus, thank you for starting this thread as I was working on a build my self simply because I think Gat is not that good. As a pilot who won a lot with Gat, Gat suffers tremendously with the loss of brainstorm and scroll, making Dryad a lot less scary. GushStorm also takes a hit, but is more resilient to the loss of those cards because it has the ability to play really broken cards that allow you to win far more consistently than in Gat.  I would like to introduce my build, which i split at Traviscon with yesterday. I would like to thank my team mates Bill Copes, John Longo, John Lessard and Clark for helping me tweak the deck, and make the subtle changes that made it the contender it is.

Nick Rodrigues
617 Gush Storm

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
4 Gush
4 Preordain
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
4 Duress
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Misdirection
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendril's of Agony
1 Fastbond

Side Board:

1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Nature's Claim
2 Yixlid jailer
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitis
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm

Before I begin, these are all of my opinions and I welcome the discussion regarding my reasoning and decisions. Whatever the case may be, it won me a tourney.  Smile
First of all running a lot of artifact acceleration is wrong in my opinion. It's good for generating storm and that's about it. This deck can cast any spell without all that acceleration due to gush itself or mana drain, never mind fastbond. But the most important reason is that gush decks are supposed to be mana light due to gush, so your business spell count will be high and top decks will be in your favor.
Also vault/key doesn't belong here either. The reason is this deck is not designed for that combo like Tezzeret. This deck wants to abuse fastbond and yawgmoth's will and win, or Empty for a reasonable amount of guys or Tinker and go control the rest of the way. Adding those cards only lessens the ability of the deck to achieve these routes to victory.
Third, Trygon Predator is more suited in the side board but I wouldn't even do that because there are better options like Ingot Chewer. Trygon main also lessens your chances of comboing out because they don't help in your path to victory in the way the deck is designed to win. Sure it may be helpful against Shops and maybe Oath but what about all the other blue decks out there?

Cards I wont run:Tolarian Academy, Library of Alexandria etc.- They dont return to your hand from Gush. Why would you run these?
                         Wheel of Fortune, Memory Jar, Mind's Desire etc.- These cards are good if you can cast them, but you wont consistently so why risk it.

My card choices-
4 on color moxen, Lotus and a Crypt- I feel this is all you would need for acceleration. Crypt over Pearl for a little more help with bigger spells like gifts, Tendril's etc. But i felt that Sol Ring may have been just as good in that spot.
15 Lands- This is plenty to get it going and I feel is the sweet spot for land. Maybe cut a Trop for 1 more Island but i don't feel comfortable doing that because of strip effects taking your only green land away.
Counter/Disruption: Worked beautifully for me all day at the tourney. I Drained into business. I durraped (lol) many of hands. I misdirected 2 Ancestral's. The only thing I may change is Thoughtseize over Duress. But the life loss has always been an issue with me and my buddy fastbond.
Regrowth HAS BEEN A HOUSE- Ancestral, Gush, Fastbond and Yawgwill all returned to my hand because of that card. Its value is highly underrated.
Myr Battlesphere- 2 of my opponents chuckled when this card came into play. They weren't chuckling when I smacked them for 12 damage. Besides the retarded artwork on this guy, HE IS A MONSTER. He came in turn 2 vs Stax and that was game. He got swords'd and i still had 4 little guys vs Fish. He's resilent, does more damage than colossus, and is the best answer vs Shops.   
Chain of Vapor- Chain was awesome as a bounce spell and can still be used on occasion for storm. It won me a game vs Fish when I bounced his Gaddock Teeg EOT and went off next turn. I wont cut that card. I originally wanted E-truth but as my team mates suggested chalice at 2 shuts off both of my bounce spells.
Empty the Warrens- I love this card regardless what people say about it. The control shell in this deck is so strong that 6 guys can get there. Good vs Fish and Shops, this card is an auto-include in my list.

All day yesterday this deck showed me time after time how powerful, resilient, and versatile it was. I Emptied my way to victory, Tendriled my oppnents to negatives, and got there with Battlesphere all the same. Would I play it again? You bet your mama's tits I will!
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« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2010, 07:21:48 pm »

I probably won 3/4 of my games with Myr Battlesphere at Traviscon, the guy is a monster.  A lot of people were laughing at him before the tourney, they sure were not laughing afterwards. 
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« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2010, 09:04:17 pm »

Just saying, I may have sold out of Myr Battlespheres at Traviscon.  I think this guy is the "correct" Tinker target for Vintage right now, especially if you expect lots of MUD.
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« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2010, 09:30:43 pm »

Just saying, I may have sold out of Myr Battlespheres at Traviscon.  I think this guy is the "correct" Tinker target for Vintage right now, especially if you expect lots of MUD.

Yes, I was one of your purchasers.  Wink
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« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2010, 12:24:43 am »

@Cane1024 -- Very nice list and congrats! I do have a couple questions for you:

1. How was that Misdirection for ya? I probably wouldn't be running them in a shop heavy metagame since they are dead against like 50% of the field and a bit narrow elsewhere. It seems like a "cute" card that only really thrives when Big Blue is king.

2. Did preordain fill the role of storm enabler? Did you ever wish they were just bombs like Wheel or Vault/Key?

3. Why no Lotus Petal? Sol Ring?

4. I'm not sure I understand your SB. Why the 2 Jailer and 2 Relic, 1 Crypt and 2 Needle and not just 4 Leyline 2 Jailer config? You have plenty of protection for the Leylines. Explanation?

5. Did chewer do its job? I usually found that, when piloting TPS, Hurkyl's was usually a better card. Why not run 1-2 more of THOSE in the SB over Chewer.

6. Did you ever feel the need for a 3rd REB effect in the SB? How was the Jace control match-up, in other words?

7. Why Empty AND Tendrils? Did you find yourself Emptying for 6-8 dudes a lot? I like Empty but it is definitely not a "Win now" card like some.

I really like your config of pyroclasm and massacre in the SB btw. I think I'm gonna start running that over 2 lightning bolt. Seems like a more efficient way to take out an army of Fishies/hate bears.

Again, well done! I look forward to tweaking the list to perfection and you are helping me along the way.

-Storm
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« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2010, 08:06:29 pm »

Hey Nick, what did you swap Ancient Grudge out for, a land?
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« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2010, 10:23:13 pm »

Bill, I cant remember what I switched grudge with, because I don't have the original deck list and I tweaked it a little bit at home.  Sad

For Stormanimagus:

1. Misdirection was awesome for me and it always has been. As i said I misdirected 2 ancestral recall's during the tourney. This slot could easily be Mindbreak Trap though. I know in a heavy shop meta it's not as good, but running 1 is fine. As others have put it, it's serves as FOW #5. MisD has always been good for me.

2. In a mana light deck like this one, preordain is primarily used to find the second land. Next, its good to sculpt your hand by possibly finding that missing piece such as a draw card or a disruption spell. Its also awesome for storm like you said. Its value isn't nearly as high as brainstorm or ponder, but is what I believe essential to the decks engine. I would run atleast 3 in my opinion.

3. My heavy experience with gush decks leads me to believe artifact mana comes last when creating your mana base. An opening hand that contains 1 land and 1 moxen or sol/crypt can be deceiving because you may get stuck with 1 land causing you to lose a game. You need 2 land for Gush and drain which is used primarily to power out your 3/4cc spells. The mana needs to be built around gush, the other powerful spells you play are just compliments to this engine. Just because you can power out gifts easier with sol ring doesn't mean you should add more artifact accelerants to the deck. Construct it around the 4 cards that your deck abuses to death.

4. Leyline of Sanctity is seeing more play in dredge which hurts Crypt so relic seemed more fitting in that slot. Nihil Spellbomb seems like a better choice and I will be replacing those slots with that. The leyline strategy to me is terrible. There are 3 Dead cards are in your deck beyond the first leyline. Dredge has a ton of disruption and removal so your forces wont last long, and remember that my control shell goes down to 7 cards from 12 because you side out duress effects and misD, so protecting leyline is much, much harder. I always liked multiple ways to attack dredge keeping them guessing.

5. In my opinion Ingot Chewer is the best shop hate card out there. I would run 4 if oath wasn't out there so 2 claim are in it's place. It gets around chalice and thorn, and its a body late game. Tangle Wire makes Hurkyl's less spectacular. Chewer has always dominated my shop matches when he shows up in multiples. I am bumping him up to 3 slots.

6. In the tourney, I played against a gentleman playing Smennen's snake/city/vault list. (This guys deck was beautiful btw, all foil with bb duals and power) I had to ask him what deck he was playing after because the match was so one sided. 2 Rebs and 3 duress was such a devastating combo that I didn't lose a game when they where together. 2 Reb effects are in my opinion are fine because Reb is a situational answer, and having multiples sitting in your hand when they cast something you cant blast it with like Bob, Will, Vault, Fastbond etc may have you scooping shortly after.

7. Empty the Warrens is the second route to victory when lethal Tendril's cant be cast. It also serves as a surprise to your opponents. Who in this meta can answer 10 goblins? Cards like Hurkyl's, Claim, grudge and chain of vapor have replaced Etruth and EE. Empty won me just as many games as Tendril's and Tinker.

I also may be running thoughtseize over duress.

Note: Gush storm took first and second place at the Madrid tourney with 148 players. This deck is still to this day, no joke.
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« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2010, 12:32:31 am »

Bill, I cant remember what I switched grudge with, because I don't have the original deck list and I tweaked it a little bit at home.  Sad

For Stormanimagus:

1. Misdirection was awesome for me and it always has been. As i said I misdirected 2 ancestral recall's during the tourney. This slot could easily be Mindbreak Trap though. I know in a heavy shop meta it's not as good, but running 1 is fine. As others have put it, it's serves as FOW #5. MisD has always been good for me.

2. In a mana light deck like this one, preordain is primarily used to find the second land. Next, its good to sculpt your hand by possibly finding that missing piece such as a draw card or a disruption spell. Its also awesome for storm like you said. Its value isn't nearly as high as brainstorm or ponder, but is what I believe essential to the decks engine. I would run atleast 3 in my opinion.

3. My heavy experience with gush decks leads me to believe artifact mana comes last when creating your mana base. An opening hand that contains 1 land and 1 moxen or sol/crypt can be deceiving because you may get stuck with 1 land causing you to lose a game. You need 2 land for Gush and drain which is used primarily to power out your 3/4cc spells. The mana needs to be built around gush, the other powerful spells you play are just compliments to this engine. Just because you can power out gifts easier with sol ring doesn't mean you should add more artifact accelerants to the deck. Construct it around the 4 cards that your deck abuses to death.

4. Leyline of Sanctity is seeing more play in dredge which hurts Crypt so relic seemed more fitting in that slot. Nihil Spellbomb seems like a better choice and I will be replacing those slots with that. The leyline strategy to me is terrible. There are 3 Dead cards are in your deck beyond the first leyline. Dredge has a ton of disruption and removal so your forces wont last long, and remember that my control shell goes down to 7 cards from 12 because you side out duress effects and misD, so protecting leyline is much, much harder. I always liked multiple ways to attack dredge keeping them guessing.

5. In my opinion Ingot Chewer is the best shop hate card out there. I would run 4 if oath wasn't out there so 2 claim are in it's place. It gets around chalice and thorn, and its a body late game. Tangle Wire makes Hurkyl's less spectacular. Chewer has always dominated my shop matches when he shows up in multiples. I am bumping him up to 3 slots.

6. In the tourney, I played against a gentleman playing Smennen's snake/city/vault list. (This guys deck was beautiful btw, all foil with bb duals and power) I had to ask him what deck he was playing after because the match was so one sided. 2 Rebs and 3 duress was such a devastating combo that I didn't lose a game when they where together. 2 Reb effects are in my opinion are fine because Reb is a situational answer, and having multiples sitting in your hand when they cast something you cant blast it with like Bob, Will, Vault, Fastbond etc may have you scooping shortly after.

7. Empty the Warrens is the second route to victory when lethal Tendril's cant be cast. It also serves as a surprise to your opponents. Who in this meta can answer 10 goblins? Cards like Hurkyl's, Claim, grudge and chain of vapor have replaced Etruth and EE. Empty won me just as many games as Tendril's and Tinker.

I also may be running thoughtseize over duress.

Note: Gush storm took first and second place at the Madrid tourney with 148 players. This deck is still to this day, no joke.

I agree with most of your sentiments but a couple and I want to point them out:

4. Leyline Of The Void is still, hands down, the best dredge hate out there and it fits fine in this deck. I just think you are probably boarding wrong vs. Dredge. You DON'T side out Duresses vs. Dredge because they are super important for taking their anti-hate. Here's what you do.

You side in 4 Leyline Of The Void and 2 Jailer (and perhaps 1 Needle if you have the space). You side OUT 2 Island, 1 Hurkyl's, 1 Chain Of Vapor, 1 Empty The Warrens, and 1 Misdirection to make room. This means you have 4 FoW, 3 Drain and 4 Thoughtseize to protect your hate cards. That should be enough to get there.

Now I can see running other configs like Spellbomb or Relic or some combo of stuff, but you MUST not side out Duresses. They are gold when you have a hate piece to protect. FoW and Mana Drain bat clean-up when they try to dig for answer #2.

I think chewer is probably good as a 3-of. Good call.

Thanks for the comments. Keep it up!

-Storm
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« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2010, 09:41:48 am »

Good points but Duress effects vs dredge are very similar to duress effects vs shops. Its good if u go first, and terrible mid/late game. If they have ray of revelation its just completely useless.
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