The Mountains Win Again is Back!

[vaughnbros]

Ive been playing around with a TMWA lists for a few weeks now and i think i have a list that seems to run pretty well in play testing.  I wanted to see if anyone had any suggestions on it before i run it through its first tourny.

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Kargan Dragonlord
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pilgrim's Eye
1 Stingscourge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Manic Vandal
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Null Rod
4 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Ajani Vengeant

1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mountain
2 Plateau
1 Plains
4 Arid Mesa

Sb:
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Plains
1 War Priest of Thune
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Goblin Welder
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt

The main addition other than the splash of white is the imperial recruiter toolbox and this deck runs a higher starting curve with only a single 1 drop in the md allowing you to safely play chalice at 1 without it having a drawback.

[Troy_Costisick]

Ive been playing around with a TMWA lists for a few weeks now and i think i have a list that seems to run pretty well in play testing.  I wanted to see if anyone had any suggestions on it before i run it through its first tourny.

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Kargan Dragonlord
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pilgrim's Eye
1 Stingscourge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Manic Vandal
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Null Rod
4 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Ajani Vengeant

1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mountain
2 Plateau
1 Plains
4 Arid Mesa

Sb:
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Plains
1 War Priest of Thune
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Goblin Welder
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt

The main addition other than the splash of white is the imperial recruiter toolbox and this deck runs a higher starting curve with only a single 1 drop in the md allowing you to safely play chalice at 1 without it having a drawback.

I like this list a lot, but I would drop the Planeswalkers and add in Crucible of Worlds.  It will be great card advantage with Arid Mesa and softens the blow of losing City of Traitors.  Using Recruiter as a toolbox is pretty smart IMO.  Have you considered also playing Stoneforge Mystic and SoFI?  They'd all combo nicely with Recruiter.

Peace,

-Troy

[vaughnbros]

I like this list a lot, but I would drop the Planeswalkers and add in Crucible of Worlds.  It will be great card advantage with Arid Mesa and softens the blow of losing City of Traitors.  Using Recruiter as a toolbox is pretty smart IMO.  Have you considered also playing Stoneforge Mystic and SoFI?  They'd all combo nicely with Recruiter.

Peace,

-Troy

Now that you mention it Koth has not been doing too hot he is a little to aggressive for the deck, however I am very enamored with Ajani Vengeant i like his dual functionality of both locking an opponents basic land and being able to bolt their creatures off.

Im not quite sold on crucible being in TMWA considering with 8 blood moon effects get a mountain back doesn't seem too important.

Right now the Stoneforge is in the sb with jitte as its fetch target because i am running 4 md null rods and was afraid of the negative interaction between the two, but I have been having a lot of trouble with beating decks with low artifact counts game 1 so Im going to cut the koth and move the manic vandal to the sideboard for the stoneforge and the jitte.

Thank you for your suggestions.

[vaughnbros]

I just took 3rd out of 28 with the following list:

1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
4 Null Rod
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Trinisphere
1 Ajani Vengeant
4 Blood Moon
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Stingscourger
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Glowrider
1 Intrepid Hero

Lands (18):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
1 Mountain
3 Plains
2 Plateau

Sb
4 Avalanche Riders
1 Goblin Welder
1 Manic Vandal
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Viashino Heretic
1 War Priest of Thune

I beat two stax decks and a painter's servant control deck to draw into the top 8, where i beat Turbo Tezz, then lost to Gush Control because of some mana issues, which granted him enough time to get time vault key in games 1 and 3.   

Changes that come to mind:
MD: -2 Aven Mindcensor  -1 Stingscourge -1 Ethersworn Canonist +1 Goblin Welder +1 Vexing Shusher +1 Strip Mine +1 Solemn Simulacrum

SB: -1 Manic Vandal -1 Goblin Welder -1 Vexing Shusher +1 Ethersworn Canonist +1 Viseling +1 Random Miser

[TopSecret]

This is a cool take on the concept of TMWA.
Intrepid Hero seems like a serious beating. Props to whoever put that up here.
Mother of Runes seems utterly insane in this deck. It stops any removal on your silver bullet dudes.
Loyal Sentry might not be bad, either.
Preacher is another guy I'd suggest trying out if you haven't already, although he takes double White.
If you go down the artifact route maybe adding in some of those 5/3 sphere guys wouldn't be so bad, since Magus of the Moon followed by sphere golem is pretty much a hugely savage beating of epic proportions.

[Ozymandias]

The only thing I'm leery of with your list is the huge antisynergy between wanting white mana and wanting to drop a t1 moon effect.

[xouman]

Does intrepid soldier stop DSC? Since it is indestructible, hero won't do anything...

Also I miss red mana sources. I played 9 mountains, 4 ssg and 2 chromatic star and had to drop some hands due to lack of red mana. A stifle on a fetch, or a moon countered (and payed with ssg or lotus/petal) could be an issue...

Btw, i love mindcensors and glowrides in this deck as long as they are affordable most of the time

[Troy_Costisick]

I'd love to give more feedback if I get time, but until then I'll toss out Duergar Hedge-Mage as a card for consideration in such a list.  It has synergy with Recruiter and can generate some real card advantage against the right decks.  It's too bad you're playing Null Rod b/c Aether Vial at 3 would be nuts in this deck.

[Mantis]

This decks looks neat. I do have some questions:
Wouldn't you want more Intrepid Hero's in the sideboard? If you manage to get him out vs. MUD you pretty much stop their entire deck as he kills Lodestone, Karn and Steel Hellkite. Also, what are you going to do about Lodestone Golem preboard, it seems to me that you are pretty much forced to accept a 2 for 1 in order to stop him.

Can you ever win against dredge? It would seem to me that some Tormod's Crypts and maybe some Nihil Spellbombs/Relic of Progenitus alongside would help you out greatly with Magus or Blood Moon + a Crypt activation you can slow them down enough to fetch up Welder with Imp Recruiter and beat them. The flipside is that you lose a lot of precious boarding space, what is your opinion on this matter?

Also, what are the Avalanche Riders for? They seem a bit slow to me.

[vaughnbros]

This is a cool take on the concept of TMWA.
Intrepid Hero seems like a serious beating. Props to whoever put that up here.
Mother of Runes seems utterly insane in this deck. It stops any removal on your silver bullet dudes.
Loyal Sentry might not be bad, either.
Preacher is another guy I'd suggest trying out if you haven't already, although he takes double White.
If you go down the artifact route maybe adding in some of those 5/3 sphere guys wouldn't be so bad, since Magus of the Moon followed by sphere golem is pretty much a hugely savage beating of epic proportions.

Mother of runes does seem like it could find a place in here I will definitely try it out.  Preacher however costs 2 white mana making him very difficult to cast.  There really would not be any room for lodestones nor a need since this decks goal is to have a great matchup against stax and stay competitive against blue based decks i would prefer to stay away from too many artifacts.

The only thing I'm leery of with your list is the huge antisynergy between wanting white mana and wanting to drop a t1 moon effect.

Generally a turn 1 moon effect will take precedence over wanting white mana and generally pays off there are 3 plains in the deck for that reason and the addition of Solemn Simulacrum allows my recruiters to fetch out plains.

Does intrepid soldier stop DSC? Since it is indestructible, hero won't do anything...

Also I miss red mana sources. I played 9 mountains, 4 ssg and 2 chromatic star and had to drop some hands due to lack of red mana. A stifle on a fetch, or a moon countered (and payed with ssg or lotus/petal) could be an issue...

Btw, i love mindcensors and glowrides in this deck as long as they are affordable most of the time

No sadly intrepid hero does not stop dsc collosus, that is why there was a stingscourge in the md which has now been replaced by welder both of which can answer the all powerful dsc.

Counterspells are a weakness of the deck but with the 8 unpowered and the 8 blood moon effects one of them will stick so my opponent basically needs a turn 1 or 2 win with force backup which will beat pretty much anyone so...

I did not really like the mindcensors i found them underwhelming, whereas the glowriders almost always affect my opponent the mindcensors only work against a few decks,  the glowriders with the null rods won me quite a few games though.

I'd love to give more feedback if I get time, but until then I'll toss out Duergar Hedge-Mage as a card for consideration in such a list.  It has synergy with Recruiter and can generate some real card advantage against the right decks.  It's too bad you're playing Null Rod b/c Aether Vial at 3 would be nuts in this deck.

I considered Duergar Hedge-Mage but the thing i dont like about it is that i need 2 of a basic to have him do anything, so it becomes very sketchy on whether i will get enchantment destruction, artifact destruction, both or neither out of him.

This decks looks neat. I do have some questions:
Wouldn't you want more Intrepid Hero's in the sideboard? If you manage to get him out vs. MUD you pretty much stop their entire deck as he kills Lodestone, Karn and Steel Hellkite. Also, what are you going to do about Lodestone Golem preboard, it seems to me that you are pretty much forced to accept a 2 for 1 in order to stop him.

Can you ever win against dredge? It would seem to me that some Tormod's Crypts and maybe some Nihil Spellbombs/Relic of Progenitus alongside would help you out greatly with Magus or Blood Moon + a Crypt activation you can slow them down enough to fetch up Welder with Imp Recruiter and beat them. The flipside is that you lose a lot of precious boarding space, what is your opinion on this matter?

Also, what are the Avalanche Riders for? They seem a bit slow to me.

Intrepid hero isnt the only way to beat stax and its actually in the main deck,  welder mox monkey is a very effective 2 card combo to basically destroy their whole deck.  Its really not difficult to mana lock stax because of the ancient tombs, city's and ssg i can accelerate past their spheres drop a blood moon and have them under the weight of their own spheres,  null rod also shuts down aggro mud making their metalworkers nothing more than 1/2s.

The dredge matchup is a cakewalk if i drop a blood moon turn 1 on the play otherwise I am relying on a little bit of luck to beat them.

Avalanche riders are for the Blue heavy decks that dont need other colors to operate, ie. John Jone's turbo tezz,  The basic land count in those decks is too high for blood moons to be effective but i still need mana denial in order to win, the riders provide me with the ability to destroy a basic island and smack a pwer at the same time.

[SadDubs]

has anyone tested '3-4 of' phyrexian revoker? He's great with the colourless lands and by using him liberally he functions as both mana denial and a game stopper vs vault, walkers, and kuldotha forgemaster mud builds. Or is he too narrow to warrant more than a toolbox pick for imperial recruiter?

[Ozymandias]

The really exciting guy for this deck is actually Phyrexian Metamorph, who provides a really good answer to tinkerbots and oath guys, serves as another beater if you need it, and worst case comes down as a redundant lock piece.

[vaughnbros]

has anyone tested '3-4 of' phyrexian revoker? He's great with the colourless lands and by using him liberally he functions as both mana denial and a game stopper vs vault, walkers, and kuldotha forgemaster mud builds. Or is he too narrow to warrant more than a toolbox pick for imperial recruiter?

I find that with a null rod out a lot of the things that you want to target with revoker are already hit by the null rod making him really only like a single targeting null rod, which is why hes only a toolbox target.

The really exciting guy for this deck is actually Phyrexian Metamorph, who provides a really good answer to tinkerbots and oath guys, serves as another beater if you need it, and worst case comes down as a redundant lock piece.

I agree this card is amazing and the fact that it can be fetched out with recruiter and welded in and out makes it even more insane although mud gaining this to its arsenal is bad for that match up.

[vaughnbros]

I played 3 different variants of TMWA in my last 3 tournaments although all 3 of my versions were built to try and optimize the following:
1. Turn 1 blood moon
2. Null Rod
3. Chalice of the Void on 1
4. Imperial Recruiter to toolbox

I played the following colors with these results:
Red White: Finished 3-0-2 in swiss, Won first round of top 8, lost to gush control
Mono Red: 0-2 drop in swiss
Red Black: Finished 4-0-1 in swiss, Won first round of top 8, lost to oath

From my results it seems to me that TMWA is very well positioned in the meta game given a solid color splash for a few main deck cards and better sideboard options.

From these tournament results and play testing I have come to the conclusion that the following shell is the most optimal for this type of build and the choice of color depends on meta game:

Solid Color Fixing:
4 Off Color Basics
1 Mountain
3 Dual Lands
1 Off Color Fetch
4 Fetches

Mana accelerating lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

Other Mana Acceleraters:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Off Color Mox
1 Mox Ruby

Moon Effects:
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Blood Moon

Unpowering 8:
4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void

Answers:
4 Imperial Recruiter w/ toolbox
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Gorilla Shaman


Pure mono red, this version definitely had the most stable mana base the issue was that there are not really many great red cards outside of toolbox targets that are not already in the shell this makes you go towards artifacts, which receive splash damage from stax hate, or makes you play suboptimal cards neither of which isn't good.

The white splash mostly provided amazing sideboard options, including stoneforge and equipments and also enchantment hate, mostly helping in drastically improving a terrible oath match up, although it did not improve the main deck, so it seems to be the best splash in a meta with oath and fish.

The black splash provided amazing card advantage due to demonic tutor and dark confidant, while also allowing for main deck fetch option of yixlid jailer and diabolic edict to side in against oath, as a result this seems to be the best color splash in my opinion.

The green splash although i have not extensively tested this splash it seemed to slightly improve the main deck with the addition of tarmogoyf adding a clock to the deck and also gives you better options against oath and stax in the sideboard, although stax is already an amazing match up for this deck.

The blue splash i have also not extensively tested this version due to the fact that this splash hurts your stax and fish match ups although it will definitely improve your match up against blue decks due to ninja of the deep hours and rootwater thief both of which need clear paths to your opponents life total to excel, it also gives you waterfront bouncer which is the best recruiter target against oath.

The main reason im writing this post is to try and get a little more of a discussion about TMWA.  I think it will be a very good deck option for a long time since its best match up is stax which is here to stay.

[StanleyAugust]

vaughnbros:

I really, really like your approach to this archetype, and after seing your first version with Imperial Recruiter, I have begun testing quite a bit.

One question:

Since you state that the main goal is to get down a Blood Moon effect, what is the reason then, that you only have included 3 Blood Moons and 3 City of Traitors in your skeleton?

I'm very interested in the blue version of this deck - especially with the interaction between Ninja of the Deep Hours and Imperial Recruiter.

Do you mind sharing a temporary list?

[vaughnbros]

Thank you StanleyAugust im glad you like it.

Im only running 3 blood moons and 3 city of traitors because although having 4 of each will increase your chance of getting a first turn moon it only increases the chances by a couple percent whereas having that 8th moon effect and 8th double colorless land makes you have 2 more bad top decks when i was playing the white version i did have 4 of each though so it is definitely viable.

Here is the blue build that I have although again its just an initial build:

4   Ancient Tomb
1   Mountain
4   Scalding Tarn
4   Island
3   Volcanic Island
3   City of Traitors
1   Polluted Delta

4   Magus of the Moon
4   Simian Spirit Guide
4   Imperial Recruiter
1   Gorilla Shaman
1   Phyrexian Revoker
1   Phyrexian Metamorph
1   Cunning Sparkmage
1   Blightsteel Colossus
1   Ninja of the Deep Hours
1   Rootwater Thief
1   Waterfront Bouncer
1   Goblin Welder
1   Viashino Heretic

4   Null Rod
1   Mox Ruby
1   Lotus Petal
1   Black Lotus
3   Blood Moon
4   Chalice of the Void
1   Tinker
1   Time Walk
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Mox Sapphire

I dont really have a sideboard

[evouga]

Here's the list I've been testing. Along the lines of the original posted deck, it goes all-out to land a Moon effect on Turn 1.

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
4 Simian Spirit Guide
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon

2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Welder
2 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Viashino Heretic

SB: 4 Greater Gargadon
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Goblin Welder
SB: 2 Phyrexian Metamorph

Phyrexian Metamorph has really given the mono-red build of the deck a shot in the arm, as it is an answer to Tinker targets and Tarmogoyf, two highly problematic cards in the past.

Maindeck Goblin Welder is good in the two most common matchups: against blue decks it fights Tinker (until people start playing Inkwell again...) and Vault/Key, and it is hilarious as always against shops. Welder also has cute synergy with Metamorph, swapping in destroyed Metamorphs for redundant Rods and Chalices.

One downside of this build is that it is very controlling and slow to kill once it has soft-locked the opponent, giving blue decks plenty of time to draw a basic land and regain control of the game. The slow clock can be particularly problematic when the opponent sides in basic lands intended for the Workshop matchup, but I'm reluctant to swap out lock pieces for more aggression.

[madmanmike25]

it goes all-out to land a Moon effect on Turn 1.

If that's the case then you are missing Lotus Petal.  Honestly Sol Ring should be in here too.   Mountain, Sol, SSG -> Moon.  Sol Ring is pretty good vs Lodestone I hear.

I'm curious as to why you don't run Strip Mine.  It's not like you always get a Moon effect in play.

I think you might want to go up on the Shaman count.  He lowers your opponents life total and eats permanents.

[evouga]

Lotus Petal and Strip Mine are good ideas -- will try them. I'm less sure about Sol Ring: the circumstances you describe seem rare (you need to draw a 4-card combo, including the restricted Sol Ring, without also drawing any of the 8 -lands) relative to the times it sits uselessly in play next to Null Rod.

I used to run more Shamans but found them to be redundant for the most part with Null Rod and, to a lesser extent, Chalice. What would you suggest cutting for more? Fanatic?

[madmanmike25]

Sol Ring is a solid card in general, not just in the example I used.  I like it under Sphere effects, but whatever works for you.

Fanatic could easily be replaced since he can't do combat tricks.  To be honest, I'd almost like to see Chain Lightning as another means of killing Lodestone, Confidant, or Metalworker.  I like that Fireblast is instant, but I think that card is past its prime.  I'll never forget the days when Fireblast+Fork was viable.

Also it seems that 1-ofs in a deck with no draw *could* be removed to increase consistency.

[d0rsal]

madmanmike25 makes a good pt, if you're going all out for the 1st turn "blood moon effect", then lotus petal should definitely be your 60; along w/ mana crypt; although i believe the sol ring is debateable .  i also agree w/ him, that you should be running more mox monkeys.  you may be able to get away w/ moving the fanatics to your sideboard.  although i liked them as a 4 of in my version of this build.  as you mentioned, this deck doesnt finish ppl off very quickly, its more about establishing a soft lock 1st & beatdown 2nd.  like you, i ran 2 lavamancers, but i also ran 2 koths as a finisher.  however, if you up the gorilla shaman to a 4 of, you may be able to forego the use of null rod all together & run immolating souleaters to finish off your opponents faster while they're struggling under the "moon".  on a sidenote, i ran fetchlands too, not b/c i really needed them to find a mtn, but to help fill up my "yard" to better utilize my lavamancers  

[Mantis]

Is a first turn Moon really that powerful in Vintage? Every blue deck plays at least a few basics, Shop doesn't mind all that much, Dredge can just discard on their endstep. If you are on the draw things get even worse, blue fetches out a basic, Shop plays a Sphere so you never get to play the Moon and Dredge just activates Bazaar in response. I can see Moon being decent if you pair it up with some additional disruption, but I'm not sure building a deck around the premise that if you land a first turn Moon you automatically win the game is a good idea.

[Troy_Costisick]

Is a first turn Moon really that powerful in Vintage? Every blue deck plays at least a few basics, Shop doesn't mind all that much, Dredge can just discard on their endstep. If you are on the draw things get even worse, blue fetches out a basic, Shop plays a Sphere so you never get to play the Moon and Dredge just activates Bazaar in response. I can see Moon being decent if you pair it up with some additional disruption, but I'm not sure building a deck around the premise that if you land a first turn Moon you automatically win the game is a good idea.

I have played with Magus/Blood Moon more games than I can count.  Landing it puts me paces and paces ahead of my opponent, even shop opponents.  If you can get one out first turn, especially on the play, you're going to hamper your opponent's strategy in a major way.  So few decks play any kind of bounce or creature kill, so once it's there it's there to stay.

[vaughnbros]

One downside of this build is that it is very controlling and slow to kill once it has soft-locked the opponent, giving blue decks plenty of time to draw a basic land and regain control of the game. The slow clock can be particularly problematic when the opponent sides in basic lands intended for the Workshop matchup, but I'm reluctant to swap out lock pieces for more aggression.

I found this to be true as well which is y u need to either add 1 of 2 things card advantage, like imperial recruiter, or a beater, like hero of oxid ridge.  You can cut some of the lesser lock pieces the only thing that is essential is getting a moon and shutting off power everything else is circumstantial.

If that's the case then you are missing Lotus Petal.  Honestly Sol Ring should be in here too.   Mountain, Sol, SSG -> Moon.  Sol Ring is pretty good vs Lodestone I hear.

I'm curious as to why you don't run Strip Mine.  It's not like you always get a Moon effect in play.

I think you might want to go up on the Shaman count.  He lowers your opponents life total and eats permanents.

It definitely does need petal.  However Sol Ring is very rarely better than an off color mox in this deck and accelerating past sphere effects is the strong point of this deck with the ancient tombs, city of traitors, and ssg, in fact stax should be siding out their spheres against you.  Strip mine is good but definitely not necessary if you have the room it should go in but dont go cutting things for it.  Gorilla Shaman is worse than Manic Vandal in this deck although i run Gorilla Shaman it is because i am getting it with imperial recruiter so i need immediate board presence from him,  however seeing as your not fetching for him in this build Vandal would definitely be preferable because of his ability to smash things like time vault much easier than shaman can,  I would suggest 3 vandals cutting the fanatics.  Mana Crypt seems like it would be suicide since this deck relies on beating with 1/1s and 2/2s giving yourself a clock doesn't seem wise. 

Is a first turn Moon really that powerful in Vintage? Every blue deck plays at least a few basics, Shop doesn't mind all that much, Dredge can just discard on their endstep. If you are on the draw things get even worse, blue fetches out a basic, Shop plays a Sphere so you never get to play the Moon and Dredge just activates Bazaar in response. I can see Moon being decent if you pair it up with some additional disruption, but I'm not sure building a deck around the premise that if you land a first turn Moon you automatically win the game is a good idea.

I can second what Troy is saying.  Against shops you can turn there own spheres against them and trust me they mind I won a game last tournament with nothing but 6 lands and a Blood Moon for my first 6 turns against stax.  Against Blue decks you generally lock them off double blue and off their color splashes.  Against dredge sure they can discard at end step but it definitely slows them down and if you have a hate card they cant cast their anti hate since the only things they can cast is ancient grudge and firestorm.  Its not about making you auto win but its a great start.  Null Rod and Blood Moon out by turn 2 though is almost always a win.

[d0rsal]

ditto what troy & vaughnbros said about blood moon, i wont say its a back-breaker, but it most definitely stymies most type 1 decks; yes i said type 1, i'm old.    coupled w/ a "null rod effect", thats usually game over most of the time.  realistically, how many vintage decks run basic lands?  maybe 3 in fish & 5 max in tezz?  a cpl in oath, none in dredge...  VB made some valid pts, the deck is hurt by its lack of card advantage & a strong clock.  thats why i was thinking of adding tezz's gambit to my version & cutting null rod for revokers; he doubles as a beater & he'll shut down the stuff you most likely want to stop anyways.  that would allow for the use of immolating souleaters & for any of you that havent used him or played against him in type 2, he's pretty nasty.  since i dont own any of the ridiculously expensive imperial recruiters, i run multiple gorilla shamans, so the mana crypt killing me isnt an issue & it certainly helps w/ powering out a "blood moon effect"

[madmanmike25]

in fact stax should be siding out their spheres against you

If on the play, a good Stax player wouldn't take out their Spheres.  Thorn is a possibility, but since sb games will have more non-creature artifact hate it is highly debatable.

[vaughnbros]

in fact stax should be siding out their spheres against you

If on the play, a good Stax player wouldn't take out their Spheres.  Thorn is a possibility, but since sb games will have more non-creature artifact hate it is highly debatable.

I played stax for about 6 months before focusing my time on this deck so Id consider myself a good stax player.  This match up is not about mana locking for stax its about how many threats and how fast can they can drop them against it.  For this reason i would argue that its actually more so on the play that you want to cut spheres to make the chances of turn 2 Bomb almost definite unless your opponent has a moon or rod and if you drop a first turn metalworker it is definite that bomb is landing on turn 2 whether it be a lodestone, hellkite, or precursor golem.   When stax is forced to drop a 6 drop off lands that tap for 1 mana every sphere slows itself down at least 1 turn and usually a lot more than that, with a blood moon out high mana drops in a deck thats running only 18 lands become almost impossible to land and with spheres everything stax wants to play becomes high mana.  Generally the artifact hate should be a creature as well since this deck is generally mono red, ingot chewers, manic vandals, and viashino heretics are the best hate and are all creatures. 

[madmanmike25]

I would want to delay, and in some cases PREVENT a moon effect from ever seeing play.  Spheres make Moon and Magus cost more and if I get a Lodestone out (even if for 5 mana with Sphere effect) your moon effect might not even hit the table while forcing you to deal with Lodestone rather than try to get a Moon out.  Also, a lot of these decks run neither Strip Mine (a mistake) nor Wasteland so if a moon effect doesn't land you will struggle to keep up.

Btw, I've played my share of Stax too 

[vaughnbros]

I would want to delay, and in some cases PREVENT a moon effect from ever seeing play.  Spheres make Moon and Magus cost more and if I get a Lodestone out (even if for 5 mana with Sphere effect) your moon effect might not even hit the table while forcing you to deal with Lodestone rather than try to get a Moon out.  Also, a lot of these decks run neither Strip Mine (a mistake) nor Wasteland so if a moon effect doesn't land you will struggle to keep up.

Btw, I've played my share of Stax too 

Dont get me wrong stax can win games with spheres and metalworker (when TMWA doesnt have null rod) or spheres and workshops (when TMWA doesnt have a blood moon) but your talking about playing against a deck that is using 4 ancient tombs, 4 ssg, and at least 3 city of traitors which means its extremely rare that you can prevent this deck from casting things, a sphere only delays a Blood Moon while also delaying you from casting your bomb, basically just prolonging the game giving you no real advantage.   The match up ends up playing very similar to the MUD versus Mono Red Stax match up, but obviously due to you starting with spheres TMWA gets a huge advantage game 1 and then game 2 and 3 its more balanced since you get to board out your spheres.  Im not trying to say I know stax better than you, in fact Im sure you know it better than I do, however I have the unique prospective of extensively playing both decks.

[evouga]

I would want to delay, and in some cases PREVENT a moon effect from ever seeing play.  Spheres make Moon and Magus cost more and if I get a Lodestone out (even if for 5 mana with Sphere effect) your moon effect might not even hit the table while forcing you to deal with Lodestone rather than try to get a Moon out.  Also, a lot of these decks run neither Strip Mine (a mistake) nor Wasteland so if a moon effect doesn't land you will struggle to keep up.

Btw, I've played my share of Stax too 

Dont get me wrong stax can win games with spheres and metalworker (when TMWA doesnt have null rod) or spheres and workshops (when TMWA doesnt have a blood moon) but your talking about playing against a deck that is using 4 ancient tombs, 4 ssg, and at least 3 city of traitors which means its extremely rare that you can prevent this deck from casting things, a sphere only delays a Blood Moon while also delaying you from casting your bomb, basically just prolonging the game giving you no real advantage.   The match up ends up playing very similar to the MUD versus Mono Red Stax match up, but obviously due to you starting with spheres TMWA gets a huge advantage game 1 and then game 2 and 3 its more balanced since you get to board out your spheres.  Im not trying to say I know stax better than you, in fact Im sure you know it better than I do, however I have the unique prospective of extensively playing both decks.

Thorns and Trinisphere especially are downright counterproductive against TMWA, and nothing makes me happier when facing Stax on the draw than my opponent spending their first turn hamstringing themselves with their own lock pieces. The real threats to TMWA are the Golems and Hellkites.