TheManaDrain.com
June 07, 2023, 06:58:45 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9]
  Print  
Author Topic: The Mountains Win Again is Back!  (Read 74374 times)
poggydude
Basic User
**
Posts: 19


View Profile Email
« Reply #240 on: November 08, 2013, 07:56:40 am »

I dunno, I still never felt like I was going to lose a mud matchup, i have 27 mana sources and several "must-counter" threats that they cant really counter.  On top of it cavern fights through chalice if need be and the sideboard is ridiculously mean. 

Oath may have been an anomaly. I was able to blow out a fetchland with mindcensor one of the games and in both games I was always about an inch ahead on disruption.  4 Cages I think help quite a bit though.

Vito's gush list seems a lot less winnable with deathrite's and more importantly, toxic deluge factored in.  I didn't really feel like i was in those games for very long.

The dredge hate might have been a tad much.  The thing is, I was going into a tournament that required you to have real versions of the cards.  From my point of view this seemed to mean more shops and more dredge making my sideboard plan very good.  I honestly feel like that is why it was put together.

I actually think i wouldve liked a tad more disruption vs long.  The disruption doesnt come out quick enough or isnt plentiful enough.  I lost pretty damn bad there.  Again i feel the strength of this deck was how well it was metagamed for this tournament(sidenote, these aren't humblebrags I was handed this deck) so I understand i cant be ready for everything, these are just my opinions for adjustments to handle other metas.

Yeah, I feel your pain on big blue.  I'm worried that the deck would need to be cannablized too much to handle it.  Either way I'm happy to follow along and see if anyone comes up with something to help with this.
Logged
xouman
Basic User
**
Posts: 1082


View Profile Email
« Reply #241 on: April 08, 2014, 09:10:01 am »

Well, this is necromancy, but I don't think a new thread is needed, since this is another moonored (lol) list, yet with power.

First, the 75 cards

17 creatures
2 magus of the moon
2 phyrexian revoker
3 goblin welder
1 gorilla shaman
1 viashino heretic
4 lodestone golem
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 kuldotha phoenix
1 masticore
1 jaya ballard, task mage

17 spells
2 gamble
3 faithless looting
1 chalice of the void
3 blood moon
2 fiery temper
3 mental misstep
1 batterskull
1 time vault
1 voltaic key

26 mana sources
5 moxen
1 black lotus
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 tolarian academy
4 ancient tomb
3 great furnace
8 mountain
1 strip mine


sideboard
1 trinisphere
2 grim lavamancer
4 grafdigger's cage
1 witchbane orb
1 smash to smithereens
1 viashino heretic
1 chalice of the void
2 tormod's crypt
2 pyroblast



2 magus: I'd put even more. Lots of decks have few outs to a resolved moon, because they don't play basics or just few of them. Specially bug seems ill suited, and moon deactivates fetchlands and wastes, less fodder for drs.

2 revokers: since we are not playing null rod, it gets even better. could be 3.

3 welder: a pillar of the deck

1 gorila: without null rod, one is useful, specially with moon in play. great synergy with welder.

1 viashino heretic: a personal choice to deal with opponent rods, batterskulls, vaults, and of course mud. 12 damage to bsc owner could seal the deal.

4 lodestone golem: is one of the best creatures in the format. decent body, skips decay, bolt it's at a minimum, recoverable with welder...

1 metamorph: I'm not sure about this, but it's anything that bothers you.

1 kuldotha phoenix: better on paper than in real play. for 4 you have an uncounterable 4/4 flyer with haste. However having 3 artifacts is harder than it seems.

1 masticore: the original. skips decay, 1 mana cheaper than razormane, regenerates, does not have to wait to kill creatures. Far worse against mud and x/2-3 critters.

1 jaya ballard: the bane of creatures' decks. answers trygon, golem, jace, and lots of creatures.


spells:

2 gamble: gets anything, at the cost of random fail. In a empty hand is nice to fetch phoenix or fiery temper. allows T1 moon fetching lotus, or t1 cotv

3 faithless looting: best monored manipulation I have found. sometimes sucks, though.

1 chalice: random T1 steals, after it goes to 2. worse since abrupt decay became a staple.

3 blood moon: see magus. blood moon is even better

2 fiery temper: bolt is better, but temper has lots of synergy and avoids cotv1, already hard.

3 misstep: bolts, swords and drs annoy a lot.

1 batterskull: is wurmcoil better here?

time vault + key : the wincon this deck lacked. welder recovers both parts. easier than it seems

8 moxen+lotus+crypt+solring

1 mana vault: 3 colorless mana is useful here. more fodder for welder

4 ancient tomb: i think 3 is better

3 great furnace: really annoying against null rods or wastes. i think i would go to 2 or even 1.

8 mountain

1 strip mine


Side

1 trinisphere: whennever I'm on the play.

1 chalice of the void: against oath, or when I play and opponent plays full moxen.

2 grim lavamancer: there are lots of critters here. should be pyrokinesis, or bolt?

4 graffdigger's cage: oath, dredge, and kuldotha decks. Or decks relying on snapcaster/will.

1 witchbane orb. another card against oath, also hit tendrils and hurkyl's

1 smash to smithereens: worse than chewer against mud, but better against jace decks. has won me games because of the 3 damage.

1 viashino. yes, he's good when he's needed.

2 tormod's: not only dredge, also tarmogoyf decks.

2 pyroblast: snapcasters, jaces, trygons... those cards hurt.


what I'd like to fit:

cavern of souls. The problem is the annoying diversity of creature types. besides, 10 red spells.

sdt: I doubted between 1 and 2. then I faced null rod and I didn't want any.

bonfire of the damned. bad without sdt. really slow with sdt. wins some "lost" games.

mycosynth lattice: i initially played 1, and more gorillas and viashinos. a gorilla with this is a one side armageddon. however, it's antisynergystic with moons.

Liquimetal coating: see lattice

chaos warp: best answer i can find to oath. useful against lots of things

cage: 1 cage maindeck could be good, with gambles and looting to fetch it. we can discard it if it annoys us. Batterskull and combo is not affected with it, but golems, phyrexian



Yesterday I did some tests against AI:

RUG is hard. a well times moon hurts gush engine, but has bolts, and missteps to control us, and tarmos and delvers to kill fast. luckily is not at it's peak

bug is not so hard. null rod is the biggest problem, but moon hurts a lot. still it's not really easy, a resolved trygon gets us in trouble.

mud: mud could be broken and rip us, but we have full acceleration and then moons to minimize mws. i think we have more than 50% for sure

grixis: a bit easier than rug, but also unfavourable if they get a basic island or a confidant.

oath: yes, the worst pairing. get a quick moon or prepare to die. with lattice/liquimetal and welder you have an out, or just fast comboing

dredge: I have lost to dredge with a moon in play, but we have the edge






there is something you miss here. Some cards (like kuldotha phoenix or fiery temper) that you really think they don't deserve the place? do you think the combo is awkard? or would you include more keys and gambles to get it easier?
Logged
ishmoks
Basic User
**
Posts: 6


View Profile
« Reply #242 on: April 17, 2014, 09:05:34 am »

Well, this is necromancy, but I don't think a new thread is needed, since this is another moonored (lol) list, yet with power.



what I'd like to fit:

cavern of souls. The problem is the annoying diversity of creature types. besides, 10 red spells.

sdt: I doubted between 1 and 2. then I faced null rod and I didn't want any.

bonfire of the damned. bad without sdt. really slow with sdt. wins some "lost" games.

mycosynth lattice: i initially played 1, and more gorillas and viashinos. a gorilla with this is a one side armageddon. however, it's antisynergystic with moons.

Liquimetal coating: see lattice




I have an old mono red deck based on liquimetal coating , gorilla shaman, magus of the moon, and goblin welder. Its a mana denial deck with control options wherein any permanent can be destroyed once liquimetal coating is online.

It has an artifact destruction gameplan which made it good against Tezzerator and workshop decks back then.

I would like to point out that blood moon and magus of the moon doesnt change artifact lands into just vanilla mountains. Its a mountain and still retains its being an artifact. Liquimetal coating is still synergistic with moon effects and artifact destruction.

edit:

let me add a partial deck list while I'm at it:

Liquimetal Shaman.dec

4 Magus of the Moon
3 goblin Welder
4 gorilla shaman
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Manic Vandal

1 Blood Moon

1 Masticore
1 Arc Slogger

2 Shattering Spree
4 Lightning Bolt

3 Sculpting Steel (this was pre- Phyrexian Metamorph era)

4 Liquimetal Coating
1 Crucible of Worlds

2 Dead/Gone
1 Red Elemental Blast

3 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

2 ancient tombs
2 chrome mox (no power)
X Mountains
4 great furnace (for weld options)


The deck is pretty strong vs. workshops and blue based timevault decks which were dominant at that time. It has alot of tricks up its sleeve.

Lighting bolts are very good against jace TMS, confidants, etc. And of course direct damage.

Normal gameplan is to deny mana via gorilla shaman, use strip/wastelands. then with Liquimetal coating is online, you can destroy any permanent as long as you have artifact destruction. Welder is very useful. Imagine eating a mox with shaman, then welding it back in with a jace that was turned into an artifact.

Magus of the moon is very powerful, negating workshops, duals, fetchlands. its not synergystic with wasteland however its about redundancy. Thats why i only use 1 crucible.

Shattering spree is a bomb with liquimetal coating. All the more with 2 liquimetal coatings. destroy any permanent with replicate for 1 mana sounds good to me.

Manic Vandal is destroy any permanent for 3 mana with liquimetal coating online. These guys serve as beatdown later on.

Sculpting Steel (now should be phyrexian metamorph) - this can become any permanent with liquimetal coating. so that means you can copy a planeswalker , an emrakul, a necro, or a tolarian academy as well (its stronger now, back then copying a legend kills both, now it lives and you can use that tolarian)

You kill via beatdown after locking them down.

Simian spirit guide is for fast mana and beatdown.

arc-slogger is for end game direct damage. Can be changed.

Masticore for board control and weldable.

Also, You can ADD 4 Mental Mistep and take out some of the dead gone/bolts/ REB. Good for countering other MM and of course AR , duress, etc.




« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 09:55:19 am by ishmoks » Logged
xouman
Basic User
**
Posts: 1082


View Profile Email
« Reply #243 on: April 17, 2014, 05:54:33 pm »

Thanks for your feedback. Indeed your approach is quite similar to mine, but you have more clear ideas than me.

You play 4 magus, 1 blood moon. I'll play 3 and 3, probably. The enchantment is easier to stick (not so much with decay, but unless they have floating mana, later is difficult to play decay or even nature's claim/disenchant, being usually secondary colors). Magus has been killed by bolts hundreds of times.

4 gorillas are too much in playtesting. There are lots of decks that do not rely on moxen. Besides, moxen can be played and used. Gorilla can kill them, but if I have to face tinker (or even jace, tarmogoyf, confidant...), I have a problem

Manic vandal seems fine, but with heretic I don't have to wait to play it. However manic can be played with caverns naming human. I think I prefer viashino, specially with lots of batterskulls in the sideboards.

Masticore: my last version featured one but I have been greatly unimpressed, even playtesting with 2 fiery temper. most creature's decks (when you want this) play null rod or stony silence, and masticore sucks under a null rod. I played it some months ago vs MUD and got it dismembered... quite sad.

Arc slogger: it's kind of a finisher, but the direct damage is quite dangerous. it can only do 8 direct damage reliablily and then has to win in the combat phase, where 4/5 is nice but not that special nowadays. However is in my radar too Smile

Sculpting steel / metamorph: I like metamorph, it also works without coating and faces some hard problems like tarmo and confidant. But it's difficult to make it work with coating (besides, you usually prefer viashino here)

Coating: dead on its own, and not instawin even after pairing it with the rest of the package. I have to stick a moon effect to win tempo, and then coating helps controlling the game.

Crucible: kind of win more without spheres. The best utility I have found is not to reuse wastes, but usually recovering my lands because of opponent wastes. It's a card that goes in and out every time I play this deck.

Wastelands: playing moons, wastes and moxen is hard. Moons + wastes mean good control of opponent's manabase. Moons + moxen means early moons, great. wastes + moxen means lots of colorless mana hands, and that is really annoying. I'm towards dropping wastes (or ancient tombs...)

Great furnace, as i said lately, was quite underperforming. I expected them to be great with welders and kuldotha phoenix, but again it was only great after a moon. All the deck performs great after a moon or a lodestone golem, otherwise is crap. It has problems being reactive, so I'm testing with tangle wire, but it's not special here. Tangle is great with mws , not so great without it .

I also have tried uba mask. Uba mask and magus get along well, because magus demands searching for solutions and in the way they keep losing spells, while you can play nearly anything. Besides, playing faithless looting with uba mask is kind of the bazaar engine of old times. But if nobody plays uba mask + bazaar now, probably means in moons deck would be even worse...
Logged
ishmoks
Basic User
**
Posts: 6


View Profile
« Reply #244 on: April 21, 2014, 12:37:39 am »

Thanks for your feedback. Indeed your approach is quite similar to mine, but you have more clear ideas than me.

You play 4 magus, 1 blood moon. I'll play 3 and 3, probably. The enchantment is easier to stick (not so much with decay, but unless they have floating mana, later is difficult to play decay or even nature's claim/disenchant, being usually secondary colors). Magus has been killed by bolts hundreds of times.

4 gorillas are too much in playtesting. There are lots of decks that do not rely on moxen. Besides, moxen can be played and used. Gorilla can kill them, but if I have to face tinker (or even jace, tarmogoyf, confidant...), I have a problem

Manic vandal seems fine, but with heretic I don't have to wait to play it. However manic can be played with caverns naming human. I think I prefer viashino, specially with lots of batterskulls in the sideboards.

Masticore: my last version featured one but I have been greatly unimpressed, even playtesting with 2 fiery temper. most creature's decks (when you want this) play null rod or stony silence, and masticore sucks under a null rod. I played it some months ago vs MUD and got it dismembered... quite sad.

Arc slogger: it's kind of a finisher, but the direct damage is quite dangerous. it can only do 8 direct damage reliablily and then has to win in the combat phase, where 4/5 is nice but not that special nowadays. However is in my radar too Smile

Sculpting steel / metamorph: I like metamorph, it also works without coating and faces some hard problems like tarmo and confidant. But it's difficult to make it work with coating (besides, you usually prefer viashino here).

Coating: dead on its own, and not instawin even after pairing it with the rest of the package. I have to stick a moon effect to win tempo, and then coating helps controlling the game.

Crucible: kind of win more without spheres. The best utility I have found is not to reuse wastes, but usually recovering my lands because of opponent wastes. It's a card that goes in and out every time I play this deck.

Wastelands: playing moons, wastes and moxen is hard. Moons + wastes mean good control of opponent's manabase. Moons + moxen means early moons, great. wastes + moxen means lots of colorless mana hands, and that is really annoying. I'm towards dropping wastes (or ancient tombs...)

Great furnace, as i said lately, was quite underperforming. I expected them to be great with welders and kuldotha phoenix, but again it was only great after a moon. All the deck performs great after a moon or a lodestone golem, otherwise is crap. It has problems being reactive, so I'm testing with tangle wire, but it's not special here. Tangle is great with mws , not so great without it .

I also have tried uba mask. Uba mask and magus get along well, because magus demands searching for solutions and in the way they keep losing spells, while you can play nearly anything. Besides, playing faithless looting with uba mask is kind of the bazaar engine of old times. But if nobody plays uba mask + bazaar now, probably means in moons deck would be even worse...

Thanks for feedback. Regarding Liquimetal coating, I agree it is dead on its own. In order to maximize it, you have to put in alot of cards that interact with artifacts. For my deck, i have at least 16 cards that interact with artifacts.

Regarding Moon effects, yes 5 to 6 effects are good. My reason for having 4 magus because they are part of the beat down force. My deck doesnt really pack a punch like Tinker Blighsteel decks. However with a typical force of  gorilla shaman, a magus, and a simian spirit guide/manic vandal, i have a 5 damage clock which is decent for a mana denial / board control deck.

Viashino heretic is good too, however I'm not too keen on its 1 damage. But yeah I do like it that you want to put it down right away vs. waiting for something to destroy with a manic. In my build, sometimes you just have to check the board and just go beatdown mode without waiting for a manic vandal target. Advantage of manic vandal also is its a triggered ability so less mana intensive and faster. So it realy depends on the scenario and its got its pros and cons.

I like Masticore because its only 4 mana for a 4/4. 5 mana can take sometime.  The discard requirement during upkeep can be handy for cheating in artifacts with welder. Imagine discarding a sculting steel/ phyrexian metamorph and copying an emrakul for free. Mana can be tight sometimes and yet the deck can still operate due to  welder tricks.

Crucible is just there for redundancy for the mana denial gameplan. One is enough IMO. Sometimes CoW-Strip/waste lock wins games. And true  its good for recovery of lost lands as well. This really works well with goblin welder and artifact land. you can keep welding in from your graveyard your metamorph and use reuse artifact land as your weld target. Never dead and good to have. CoW is very synergistic with the deck and never dead.

Regarding 4 gorilla shaman, I need to max amount since that is the core tech combo of the deck with liquimetal coating. You want a turn 1 gorilla shaman (good one its own vs. powered decks) and turn 1 liquimetal coating. Thats the reason for having 4 shamans and 4 liquimetal coatings.

Imagine this: Use SSG for 1 red, play shaman. play ancient tomb, tap for 2 mana, play liquimetal coating. The combo is online, you can start eating their moxen and mishra's workshops and or any land on turn 2. Blood moon alone  is not a total lock, but mana destruction is.

It's okay to have multiple shamans since they contribute to the beatdown. you can use them to chump block, and you can use them to replace countered shamans.

Multiple coatings are ok also since you can destroy multiple lands per turn. 2 coatings, a shaman, and an ancient tomb can destroy 2 lands per turn. Thats not counting strip mine and wasteland. Liquimetal coating also adds to your artifact count for weldable targets.  

I thought of using loadstone golems however it hurts me and helps the worshop player more. For my deck its not a great fit. But I agree it is very strong in workshop decks.

Regarding Sculting Steel/ Phyrexian Metamorph, So many tricks with these cards. You can  copy your own creatures to repeat comes into play effects like manic vandal. copy manic vandal with metamorph and destroy any permanent again via liquimetal coating. Use welder to repeat the process. VERY STRONG.

Regarding Oath decks, its a bad matchup since oath is superior over decks with creatures. Gameplan is to get a fast moon effect to stall or delay oath and beatdown as fast a possible. Deny mana and as much as possible.  When oath comes down, hope fully liquimetal coating is online and kill it. If he gets to oath out a creature, copy it with metamorph or sculpting steel. You will have more creatures than the oath player so you should win.

Another key to beat oath is to get an early welder and liquimetal coating. Then make sure you get a metamorph out. That way if Iona comes out naming red , you can either weld out Iona, or destroy it by making it into an artifact, welding in a metamorph copying a manic vandal targeting Iona.


Ubasmask sounds good, but does it really help in your gameplan?

I guess it would be best if you can describe to  us what's the  core gameplan of your current  build and how your cards contribute to the gameplan.

thanks!

« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 01:30:21 am by ishmoks » Logged
xouman
Basic User
**
Posts: 1082


View Profile Email
« Reply #245 on: April 21, 2014, 05:07:58 am »

Wow, great description. I agree with you in most points, but in an aggro field I often find myself crumbling with so many small creatures against a lone threat.

-Why I think the Uba Mask could help?

1.Moons. And wastes next to them. Lots of times magus enters the field, and my opponent gets stalled for several turns. Uba mask in play means those turns my opponent is losing the card. Otherwise, he is waiting for a basic island and then vomiting his hand

2.Counterspells. With uba mask, revealing counterspells are pretty dead, since I'm not playing anything in their turn (much less if I see a counterspell that turn).

3.Welder. Welder creates an important lock with mask, specially with 2 masks and 1 welder or 1 mask and 2 welders. If I'm not wrong (I was searching threads from 2006 and so), with uba mask you reveal cards and they are playable that turn, as mask is still on battlefield. If it gets replaced, the card is lost. So 2 welders can weld mask out just after opponent's draw phase, and draw in again in the next opponent's turn. 1 welder can weld one mask for another at the end of the opponent's draw phase and he cannot play anything without flash.

4.Faithless looting/goblin lore. Faithless looting is a card I always play in this build. It's card disadvantage, but allows heavy card filtering. With uba mask, you can drop all your hand, play looting and then you have 2 free cards and you don't have to discard anything (as long as you can play both cards). Goblin lore does the same, but you are expecting to lose cards in the process.


There are some things that make mask bad, as:

-playing against mud (probably we are more affected than them). But still mud should be a good pairing if we are playing so many artifact hate (you more than me!)

-Opponent playing brainstorm/jace with an empty hand and unmolested mana. That could be horrible, but if their manabase is unmolested we are losing anyway.

-Confidant stills gets the card. This does not make mask worse, but it loses power.

-Stable manabases, as monocolored decks. same again, as long as they can play their spells, mask is nearly dead.

-Playing instants/misteps on my own. I'd like to play missteps here to protect my creatures from other missteps/bolts/stp. mask makes missteps nearly dead and bolts/shattering spree/other instants-sorceries quite worse.



I don't have the exact deck now, but the last 60 I was tinkering with liquimetal was like this:

moons
3 magus
3 blood moon

liquimetal engine
3 gorilla shaman
3 viashino heretic
3 goblin welder
3 liquimetal coating
2 shattering spree
1 mycosynth lattice

tools
3 faithless looting
2 mental misstep
2 lightning bolt
1 fiery temper
1 jaya ballard, task mage
1 crucible of worlds

cotv
3 chalice of the void
1 vexing susher

3 ancient tomb
3 wasteland
1 strip mine
3 great furnace
6 mountain
9 moxen-lotus-crypt-sol-vault



But I don't like that list. It lacks metamorph, it lacks lodestone golem, it lacks ensnaring bridge, it lacks powerful targets for welder, it lacks equipments. Of course it lacks Uba mask too. It's a bunch of inconclusive shit. What could I drop?

3 cotv + 1 vexing susher. cotv is a blast. it's mainly not for 0 (but if I start and have it in hand, I'd play it), but for 2. the only cards affected are coatings, and I rely on welders to recover them. I still have mycosynth to have endless coating activations. And with a cotv at 2 there are LOTS of cards being countered. most annoying from BUG (tarmos, confidants, snapcasters), most humans/merfolks (without caverns), oath, young pyromancer, demonic, walk, drains, spheres, hurkyl's. But since caverns and decays appeared they became worse. Vexing helps with cotv (I can still play into it), and could survive alone. Yes, probably I'll drop 3 cotv for 3 ensnaring bridges.

2 missteps? They help, and specially surprise. Even taking a preordain is nice when they are seeking responses. Could 2 metamorphs replace 2 missteps?

6 moons themselves? I prefer to play moons than coating.


I have lots of ideas but can't find a nice 60 deck, with a good plan. BTW this was an approach with uba mask:

18 creatures
4 magus of the moon
4 welder
4 simian spirit guide
2 phyrexian revoker
4 lodestone golem

17 spells
4 tangle wire
3 uba mask
4 faithless looting
1 chalice of the void
3 blood moon
1 sofi
1 batterskull

25 mana sources
5 moxen
1 black lotus
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 tolarian academy
3 ancient tomb
3 great furnace
8 mountain
1 strip mine
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.107 seconds with 20 queries.