Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

[CorwinB]

Do you think this new incarnation of Tezzeret is Vintage playable ? His +1 digs deeper than Jace but can only grab an artifact. His -1 seems could be relevant in aggro matchups or as a win condition, and his Ultimate doesn't look very relevant.

[BruiZar]

Wow, super surprised to see a 4 cc Tezzeret! I'm also surprised that he can animate a creature. I think his ultimate is relevant, but I'm not sure if its vintage worthy. With only 5 artifacts you can deal an insane amount of life loss. Even at 4 non workshop mana, it would have been playable if it only required 1 color. Right now this card looks like a strong card for non-eternal formats.

[DubDub]

Just noticed that the 5/5 artifact creature animation doesn't end at end of turn.  That's pretty dang strong actually.  I suspect that Jace TMS #s 1-4 are still better than this, but it's an interesting option.

[vassago]

I'm inclined to say that this guy is a fucking beast. The midddle ability is really nutty. I dont knwo if its good enough for type 1, but I am sure going to try it.

I am hoping to animate their jewels and Threads of Disloyalty them!      (I am only 50% kidding)

[MaximumCDawg]

Is this better than blue Tezz?  Trading an artifact tutor for an artifact impulse, trading ability to animate all your stuff with animating one of your things, and losing the untap ability entirely?  Granted, he costs one less, but still. 

[CorwinB]

Is this better than blue Tezz?  Trading an artifact tutor for an artifact impulse, trading ability to animate all your stuff with animating one of your things, and losing the untap ability entirely?  Granted, he costs one less, but still. 

An important part is that his +1 Loyalty provides CA. The Animate ability is permanent, which can be very relevant (turning a useless Mox into a 5/5 when there is a Null Rod out, for example)

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm still not sold here.  This card is good, sure - potentially an impulse or a 5/5 each turn for 4 mana is nothing to sneeze at - but I just don't see how he's better than The Seeker except situationally.  The Seeker immediately sets up a win (vault-key).  In any situation where you'd want to animate your moxen to block or beat, except (1) under null rod; or (2) when you're about to die from beats next turn, I'd rather have The Seeker.  Since Agent of Bolas does not win faster than The Seeker, you'd expect it to have abilities that give you an incremental but decisive edge over time - that's what Big Jace does.  But, Agent of Bolas doesn't do nearly as much as Big Jace (that's probably an unfair thing to say!).  It does give you an extra card each turn, and this is great.  But it's gotta be an artifact.  That is not great.  And, unlike Jace, Tezz does not have a bounce ability to protect itself, or an ultimate that will win the game by itself.  Agent's ultimate depends on the board state.

I guess what I'm saying is:

Blue drain control decks looking to combo with Vault-Key probably want The Seeker over this; and
Decks looking for card advantage probably want Big Jace (or even Confidant) over this.

I'm just not seeing a role Agent plays better than existing cards.  I'd love to be proven wrong, though.

[Daenyth]

I don't see it in blue decks, but do you think it might create some new stax variant? It gives a constant stream of card advantage. Is it at all possible for a stax deck to work with fewer spheres (because they suck with this tez)? The mana cost is painful but the ability is strong.

[Blue Lotus]

Wow good card.

four mana 5/5 haste that doubles as a draw engine seems good to me. I would play this in a u/b land destruction deck with sinkhole, stifle, in the eye of chaos, and of course. The ultimate is kind of useless. Except in rare cases such as moat, it would probably be better to just make another 5/5.

[Meddling Mike]

Pretty sure that this card will never see play in vintage, not because it's a bad card, but rather because I can't see using it with Jace and The Seeker available.

[Diakonov]

Probably good in...AFFINITY!

[gkraigher]

you would have to design an entirely new deck revolving around this card.  some kind of affinity deck sounds interesting.  His peer through depths ability for artifacts can be way better than brainstorm.  It can also be worse.  I don't know, I wouldn't rule this card out of anything.  In the meantime, this guy is going to dominate extended and standard.  I think he might even find his in a great legacy deck.  Vintage, the verdict is still out.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Would storm decks, maybe drain tendrils, value this as an alternative win-con? It plays around storm-hate, provides defense for a few turns if necessary and has some very nice synergy with storm: Finding accel and sealing the deal the turn after you cast tendrils for ten-ish.

I don't get how this guy is not completely bonkers. And the last ability can become the fastest planeswalker kill (alongside "old" Tezz and Garruk) with only a tiny bit of imagination.

[serracollector]

This cards works really well with Magus of the Unseen to turn opponents moxen into creatures, then steal and block, and just bash face? 

[DubDub]

This cards works really well with Magus of the Unseen to turn opponents moxen into creatures, then steal and block, and just bash face? 

The timing doesn't seem so good with that plan.  Permanently giving your opponent a 5/5 that you plan to temporarily gain control of every turn seems inefficient.  Especially if your Magus gets killed, and then their animated Mox kills Tezzeret in combat.

[Wagner]

This cards works really well with Magus of the Unseen to turn opponents moxen into creatures, then steal and block, and just bash face? 

The timing doesn't seem so good with that plan.  Permanently giving your opponent a 5/5 that you plan to temporarily gain control of every turn seems inefficient.  Especially if your Magus gets killed, and then their animated Mox kills Tezzeret in combat.

Very bad indeed, either you steal to swing and get your Tezz killed at their turn, or you steal to defend, at which point, why did you give them a 5/5 in the first place?

[MaximumCDawg]

Upon further reflection.... this guy DOES do something neither The Seeker nor TMS does.  He cycles through five cards in your library each turn.  Every turn, you see a fresh 5 cards, plus the one you draw.  While he only lets you draw artifacts, and you can't set up next turn's draw, Tezz in conjunction with a Divining Top seems... really, really, REALLY good.  Even TMS can't set up totally fresh draws each turn. 

So, with top out, you dig three fresh cards each turn.  That starts to sound alot like Cold-Eyed Selkie, which was playable.

[vassago]

So, for funzies I have been playing this guy as a two in UB list, just to see what he is capable of. Before I relate my experiences with you guys, I've played the following matchups: Ub Tezz (10ish games), Oath Tyrant(6 games), Tps(12 games), and Selkie (4 games).  I will admit this is not enough to draw an actual conclusion of whether or not this card is worth playing. Nor have I had the chance to play the Shop matchup, which is the one I am most interested in to begin with.

Anyway, here are some of my observations:

I have never needed to animate more than two artifacts. Surprisingly enough, it's a solid race. Team it up with a Bob, and it's actually quite impressive. Against the Oath player, the 2 times I actually had it in hand, one time I teamed it with Bob, Countering his Tutor Spells and aggressively attacking him. The other time I pitched it to Force. Being on the animate plan against Oath was indeed risky, but it worked that time. I doubt I would prefer this plan in this match up, but it's difficult to say with such little experience.  In the selkie match up, I animated his null Rod, bounced it with Jace, and went inf on turns. Surpised he didn't have the Force for Tez!  Unfortunately, I couldn't get enough games in with this matchup, because I wanted to see if the animate artifacts effects would help create a "draw go" scenario, or at least buy a few turns. 

The artifact impulse ability is actually quite good. It combos with Bob, Top, and Jace quite well.  The list I ran played the most amount of artifacts I could justify putting in, so it wasn’t often that I missed.  One concern I had when I looked at this guy was shipping all the broken type 1 cards to the bottom this way, and though it happened a couple of times, I don’t know how much of an issue that is yet. Hopefully, between tutors, fecthlands and the aforementioned draw engines/outlets, it might be a drawback worth overlooking. Twice I vamped for the missing Key/Vault piece, then I used this to put it into my hand. Generally speaking, I wanted Sapphire, Jet, Lotus Petal, or Mox Opal almost every time I used this ability, for Spell Pierce or Thoughtseize.  Speaking of Mox Opal, I was significantly impressed with this card during the few games I played and if I were to continue playing this I might add a second one.  After some thought, I wonder how important Inkwell Leviathan will be for this ability as it would enable you to put a blue card in your hand for Force of Will, but I doubt that will come up as often nor would anyone volunteer to put the tinker bot in their hand unless they really had too.

The ultimate ability was the surprising one to be honest. It’s fast to be able to get this online, and works really well with Bob. One game, my Yawgmoth’s Will was cast with the intention of playing two artifacts to be able to use this ability for the win. I like the diversity in the options you have in being able to win the game in a very quick fashion with this card. That isn’t to say he is good enough to make the cut, but I do think there is a deck where this card will be very good. Last night while playing against the four different decks, I killed more times with this than I did with animated artifacts, which was roughly 5 or 6 times. A bit of an over kill play was tinker for Battle Myr and ultimate, lol.

So here are a few finals thoughts:

While this guy is extremely powerful, I do think I may not be that great of a player to utilize it in the best way possible. I lost games where I animated to be on the aggressive. If I had have impulsed, I would have had the much needed mana for spell pierce. I also think there could be games where you pointless try and dig for a combo piece and get punished for it. I noticed immediately that the decisions weren’t necessarily auto pilot ones.

Unfortunately, I did not have enough experience with this card to see through playing  with it, whether or not it was doing anything at all. What I mean is I was trying to figure out if it felt clunky, or a waste of time. A 4 mana sorcery is risky business, and this guy could be “too cool” if you know what I mean. My very limited experience so far has been pleasant and I felt as if it was worth the effort to cast him.

Anyway, here is a list for reference. Keep in mind it was meant to try and see if the new Tez was any good, so it might be seen as utter shit.

2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize
3 Dark Confidant
Ancestral
Timewalk
Brainstrom
Ponder
Merchatn Scroll
Thrist for Knowledge
Demonic
Vampiric
Yawgmoth’s Will
Top
Tinker
BattleMyr
Key
Vault
Echoing Truth (admittedly very loose)
1 LOA
1 Tolarian Academy
Louts Petal
Black Lotus
Sol ring
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
6 Moxen(Opal, jet, ruby, pearl, emerald,  sapphire)
3 Islands
3 Underground Sea
6 Fectches

[TheWhiteDragon]

Given that same list, wouldn't it have been better to just play Tezz the Seeker?  Rather than dig 5 deep to draw a combo piece, you just find it and put it directly into play.  Rather than look for the moxen for that spell pierce, you just untap 2 moxen in play.  And in 1 turn have enough for ultimate with 4 artifacts on board to swing for lethal.  1 mana more and basic-island-blue, it seems the old tezz would trump the new tezz in every scenario.  The bouncing a null rod was cute, but your repeals/rebuild/counters should handle that issue nicely.

[vassago]

Given that same list, wouldn't it have been better to just play Tezz the Seeker?  Rather than dig 5 deep to draw a combo piece, you just find it and put it directly into play.  Rather than look for the moxen for that spell pierce, you just untap 2 moxen in play.  And in 1 turn have enough for ultimate with 4 artifacts on board to swing for lethal.  1 mana more and basic-island-blue, it seems the old tezz would trump the new tezz in every scenario.  The bouncing a null rod was cute, but your repeals/rebuild/counters should handle that issue nicely.

Most of the times I was able to cast the card in question, I did not have five mana to begin with. The cheaper mana cost is actually very relevant. I think this is the main reason why most people have abandoned the original one to begin with, other than that it really doesn't do anything.  This does more than tutor up one random artifacts before it leaves play. It can actually defend itself. It has draw power and multiple ways of ending the game in a relatively quick fashion. I'm not saying you'rre wrong, I'm just suggesting that there is potential for this card to actually see play.

I am currently inclined to disagree with you. I think this card presents more options, and can be more threatening than the older Tez. I think it's worth continuing to see if it's any good at all.  If I decide it isn't worth the deck slots, I'll probably add more to this conversation by relating my experiences and explaining why after having played enough games.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I guess it is a mana cheaper, but if you have 5 mana he single handedly wins the game the next turn....either by pumping to 5 and swinging for 20 or getting vault and untapping it.  I don't see the new tezz winning the turn after he hits play.  Especially with a deck of 4 drains and basic islands being better than seas vs wastes (and shops are at an all time high) i think 3UU is better than 2UB, or at least equal.  The ability to set a next turn win is better than a win 3 turns after I think.  I like his ability to make a 5/5 protector immediately, but that assumes you are facing critter decks.  i guess vs fish, this guy could be better if they have just 1 2/2 coming at you.

[BruiZar]

Tezzeret is the real deal, period.

QUOTE
I guess it is a mana cheaper, but if you have 5 mana he single handedly wins the game the next turn.
/UNQUOTE

Tezzeret 2.0 deals 15 damage the next turn if you have 4 mana, and this is often lethal. If it's not, it will win the game the turn after which is JUST AS FAST as tezzeret 1.0. Also, this protects itself, also, this can cantrip itself the turn it comes into play when neccesary. Also, this can dig for Time Vault / Voltaic Key as well (Granted, not nearly as efficient as Tezz 1.0, but Tezz 2.0 simply has tons more utility).

So this often wins a turn faster and always winning as fast as tezzeret 1.0 would win the game. Also, Tezzeret 2.0 wins under a Null Rod (decks which usually have creatures, and guess what, you have them too with tezzeret!). Also, Tezzeret 2.0 is easier to cast under sphere.dec. Also, against tendrils, you can crouch out of tendrils range through the ultimate and a few moxen if you can pull this off quickly enough.

Also, this card is fucking bonkers in every format.

also...

[dredge6]

 I see him as a permanent Tendrils of Agony. He let's you start your storm count before he enters the battlefield. He makes 5/5 haste creatures to attack jace with. What I guess I'm seeing is this guy is a defendable tendrils storm that sits there letting you build up the artifact count over a few turns. He can also shrink Blightsteel to a 5/5 taking the poison pressure off a little longer. I don't think I like his first ability though.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I don't get how this card is as fast or as good with the exception of vs a fish deck that has just 1 2/2 critter in play (a second dork will kill tezz if you did -1 to make a 5/5).
He hits play, makes a 5/5 swing for 5, next turn you make another 5/5 swing for 10 and...???  Even if in the turn after he hits play, he hits for 15 ideally and is at 1 loyalty that doesn't usually kill. But that assumes you didn't tap those moxen to cast tezz and they were untapped to attack.  If you have an untapped mox, you also have 5 mana for tezz 1.0 and will untap time vault next turn.  Vintage players regularly go down to 18, 17, even 16, but 15 assumes they cracked 2 fetches, cast thoughtseize/vamp, and pitched to FoW on a spell that wasn't your tezz 2.0.  That's assuming a lot.
Also, this guy possibly cantripping (he can whiff) is not better than tezz 1.0.  The original tezz cantripped when he came into play AND PUT THAT CARD DIRECTLY INTO PLAY.  This guys ultimate comes online the same turn as the other tezz, but tezz 1.0 can swing for 20 with 4 artifacts....this guy needs 10 artifacts to kill.  As far as dodging null rod, swinging for 20 does it too and tezz 1.0 can find free moxen to put into play, tezz 2.0 needs to dig 5 deep to find a castable artifact (and he needs 10!).  In anything but a heavy artifact deck (like shops type heavy) he'll whiff a lot or get you an uncastable card.
Also, vs shops which you mentioned, this guy is 1 cheaper, but also requires U-Sea which is wasteland food.  Islands are much better vs shops.  He might be better in lots of other formats (without time vault) but this is a Vintage thread, so I only can speak about Vintage here.  Personally anything not vintage playable is just 3x5 cardboard to me.

edit: @bruizar - you also said this new tezz sometimes kills the 2nd turn after he enters play which is just as fast as tezz 1.0.  Tezz can win with time vault the turn after he enters play or swing for 20 if you have 4 artifacts the turn after he hits play....how is 2 turns later just as fast?  Remember, if you are counting on a same turn swing for 5, you are saying you had the 5 mana to cast tezz 1.0.

[TopSecret]

I think what is limiting this card is that he relies on the number of artifacts you control. Also, because he animates artifacts like moxes and whatnot, that makes his abilities vulnerable to both creature hate and artifact hate, as well as randomness like Repeal.

All of that said, I think this card has very good potential to see play in every format, including Vintage.

It does not make sense to me to compare this card to either of the other planeswalkers because they are all good in entirely different circumstances with different cards in play and do different things, and therefore they will not be competing for the same slot necessarily. It pretty much does not make sense to compare two different cards, unless they are competing for the same slot in a deck, maybe.

[vassago]

After having been playing with this card since it has been previewed(by proxy at first obv), I would have to say it is quite good. It looks awful on paper, but it plays very well.

*edit*

In terms of speed, Tez 2.0 kills faster. I have had several games where I attack for 7 on turn 2, 12 on turn 3. My experience has showed me, that if I am on the animate artifact plan, it's generally a turn slower than that, but still that's a legitimate threat.

TopSecret is right, you can't compare this to the older Tez. They do different things. When you play them, you have different goals, and expect to get a different utility from one than you do from the other.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I agree that they are functionally very different, but I am wondering in a scenario without disruption to tezz or additional threats on your end, how does tezz 2.0 by himself (artifacts that are not beaters are ok to include) kill faster then tezz 1.0 by himself?
7 and then 12 damage assumes you have a 2/x beating alongside your moxen.  An immediate hasty 5/5 assumes you had the 5th mana open to play either tezz (or something like divining top).
If you have key or vault in play, you win the turn you cast tezz 1.0.  If you have to tutor for it, you win the turn after tezz hits play.  I can't see any scenario without the aid of additional damage sources where this new tezz can kill the turn after he hits play and no scenario where he can win the turn he hits play.
Additionally, I see tutoring for the artifact you want and putting it into play as WAY better than artifact impulsing for 5.  The attack for 5 and then 10 is similar at the least to swinging for 20 in one shot.  I can see a situation where you only have 2 moxen being easier to swing for 20 after a few turns, but this is vintage and I've never seen a tezz played where time vault didn't immediately enter play.  Swinging for 20 is usually followed by locking up the game the turn after tezz hits play with time vault.
To sum up, Tezz 1.0 wins the turn after he hits play or sometimes the turn he hits play....all by himself.  I can't see any scenario where tezz 2.0 can deal 20 damage the turn of or the turn after his coming into play.  How is tezz 2.0 faster???

[vassago]

Yeah, thanks for the refresher on old Tez for like the fifteenth time in this thread. It's like you think we haven't seen the card before. You know, you keep rehashing with that same line of reasoning, and it doesn't say much.  I could keep asking you "If old Tez is so good, then why is no one playing it any more?" Of course, you have never addressed it since I mentioned it last time, but no worries. 

without disruption to tezz or additional threats on your end

This is absolute ignorance on your end. All theory aside, this is Type1 we are talking about. There is going to be disruption and additional threats. It's what the format is about. Not keeping those things in mind is just stupid.  Personally, gold fishing is boring and doesn't do much to provide any insight, but with a comment like this, I am forced to assume that's the point of view you are speaking from. So, yeah, without any interaction at all from the other player, yes the older Tez would be much better.

Personally, I've said my piece. I like this card, and it's decent. Other than that, I am tired of feeding the troll.

[The Atog Lord]

This thread has interesting discussion, but is getting dangerously close to a flamewar. No warnings, but please don't call each other names, insult each other's intelligence, call each other trolls, or otherwise insult each other.

[TheWhiteDragon]

If you like the new tezz, that's fantastic, go for it.  I am just not clear on the claims where this new tezz is "faster" as a few have claimed.  That is my main point.  They each have functional differences, but I can't find a situation where this new tezz is a faster kill than the old one.  If the old one wasn't fast enough to be good, I fail to see how this new one will be.  And I am not sure how many tezz decks ran a suite of 2/x beaters alongside.  On occassion, confidant would join the party, but mostly tinkerbot was the only creature to be in the deck.  So, with that deckbuild in mind, I can't see how tezz 2.0 is "faster" than tezz 1.0.  That's all I'm saying, and nobody has yet to show me that.  I don't care which version you prefer, but I'm trying to add perspective to the conversation by illustrating claims that the new tezz is faster is very false.  Also, to say this is vintage and additional threats are common (which is not the case with many versions of a true tezz/vault deck), then I can similarly say tutors/tinker for time vault speeds tezz 1.0 into a same-turn kill.  If one card benefits from support, then so do both versions.  Back to the main point, playing either version by itself, i fail to see how the new tezz is "faster".  Show me in what situation new tezz kills/wins faster is all I'm asking.