5C Stax - A Forgotten Diamond or a Hopeless Dream?

[Magnus76]

I have been playing different types of Stax lists in the last five years. I like the brutality of the red types but also the nice and warm feeling to control the field with a lonesome Welder. The mana consistency is nice and the available red sideboard slots are handy in many matchups.

I will immediately confess that I am not a big fan of MUD (mono-brown), beaters have simply never matched my personality. I often get blaimed by my friends (and foes) that I forget to include win-cons in my builds and not seldom the actual card that wins me the match is the same lonesome Welder I used to get the situation under total control. I do not feel comfortable with Lodestone, Hellkite, Wormcoil, Juggernaut or Precursor Golem. They are, to me, just other versions of Obstianus Golem i.e. beaters that do nothing else than reducing life totals. They do not change the board state like Uba Mask, Balance, Duplicant, Tinker or Sundering Titan. I am not playing Magic simply to win, but to win with that lovely feel-good feeling that Magic is all about (at least to me). That Magic feeling.

I am also a person that is getting older than I once was and I seldom feel that new cards will "totally wreck" Vintage since Vintage, so many times, have shown to smoothely adapt any change to come (except maybe Flash). Tinker is still Tinker and Ancestral is still good. The newly hyped artifact eventually show to be simply worse than the previously printed artifacts. Cards that are given the grade "will probably see some play" actually do not see any play (anywhere) and cards that are obiously good will eventually find its place. The meta slightly shifts its position in its, already comfortable, spot in its couch. I am thinking that what was really good yesterday is probably not completely worhless today just because you can trade a single card for zero mana with an enemy card for one mana.

That is a slow intrododuction to simply make this proposal: 5C stax is an underrated archtype in Vintage 2011.

Why?

OK, let's start with something to discuss, a list:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bazaar of Baghdad

5 Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
2 Mox Opal
1 Sol Ring

4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
4 Goblin Welder
1 Duplicant
1 Sylvok Replica
1 Wormcoil Engine

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Balance
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Jester's Cap
2 Sylvok Replica
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim
1 In the Eye of Chaos

What are the benefits with this list? Well, it can deal with basically anything on the market. I have tried it in several tournaments and it performs very well (fourth place, second and win) and is as solid as a rock, given that you dare to mulligan a not-good-enough-hand.

Card-by-card analysis (in no particular order) to show what it is all about:
Crop Rotation
Changes the state once it resolves. A really power house that will surprice your enemy each time you cast it ("Oh, so you can actually get THAT land from it?!" is a common enemy face expression). It answers to enemy Wastelands, finds sollutions to Oath (Maze of Ith), makes that innocent T1 Welder a monster (Bazaar), all of the sudden gives you that feared Workshop that your enemy thought you had to actually draw and last but not least finds Strip Mine which do not have to be explained further. It combines smoothely with Crucible and it gets your land directly on the field without eating up your land-drop. And no: you do not have to sacrifice the land you use to pay Crop Rotations mana cost with (logically not psychologically obvious).

Ancient Grudge
MUD is a strong archetype and Grudge is probably the most flexible and precise answer you can get online against it. It deals with just the right threat (compared to Rack and Ruin which usually destroys the bad guy and a mox, which is not bad but not insanely good). Grudge destroys enemy moxen against decks where mana from moxes are as important as from lands (Combo) and it deals with Time Vault and Key. An alltogether solid card that is useful in a Toolbox-oriented deck like 5c Stax.

Nature's Claim
Cheaper than Grudge and handles Oath of Druids (a real pain for any Workshop-list). Otherwise the same function. Also good to have cards with different casting cost when it comes to working around enemy Chalices, you will allways have an answer (which is the general idea with the deck).

Sylvok Replica
Many Times I have Tinkered this guy (to win the Crucible war against MUD) or to be in a good position against Oath decks. It has the following differences compared to Claim and Grudge which is why it stays:
1) Weldable
2) Tinker target
3) CC 3
4) Castable with Workshop

Wormcoil Engine
So, here you have it, my biggest concern and headache: a beater. The reason this guy is in is TPS. A few beatings with the Engine and a Hurkyl's Recall is not as threatening as it could be. Even one blow is giving the TPS player troubles when it comes to additional storm count needed to finish me off. Also, this guy is insane against MUD, which is a good feature these days. The handy combo with Welder and Smokestack is probably a "win more" effect of this card and I would never include him for that reason alone. Actually I am now shifting more towards Trike since he is better against Jace (though worse against TPS).

Trinisphere
Really dangerous aginst MUD but so strong against pretty much anyghing else. Trini is always a question of what meta you are in but my number of Crucibles (three is quite on the high side) suggests he stays. I figure I will win the Wasteland war against MUD Game 1 and in Game 2 and 3 Trini is not an issue since he will not be in the deck.

Balance
Oh, I love this card, so unfair. The best example of its brokeness was this summer where I was on the draw against MUD and he opened with Workshop-Metalworker, and looked quite happy about it when I gave him my thumb up. I answered on my turn with three moxen and Balance and his face was suddenly not so happy anymore.   Balance is often the right Tutor-target and you will allmost allways come out as a winner after resolving it. Balance is the best reason to play coulored versions of Stax in my oppinion.

Mox Opal
This card probably fits this deck better than any other deck. You need coloured mana badly and with the artifact count in this list you are seldom lacking metalcraft. The legendary rule actually works in favor of the deck (same as Tolarian) since you gladly exchange your own Opal with possible enemy Opals. Your surplus Opal is not a big issue since you can Weld the one in play and play the second one or Bazaar it to the yard.

I will not go through the rest of the choises now, but feel free to ask.

So, what is new? What is the point? Well my point is that this archetype won the 2005 Vintage championchip, it has been given new fuel since then and I think it can positively be reconstructed to fit basically any meta, even today. The core in the deck (traditional Stax-components) is the same, but that is also true with TPS or any other Vintage deck. That is probably why Vintage fits people like me who have a life besides Magic and cannot go to PTQ and GP trials. You may not find my list as new and tasty as you like but what I am saying is: try to beat it!

My question for discussion is this: What is the reason that this type is not showing up in the US or European lists? Is it simply because it is not played by the good players or is the list itself actually not good enough? My experience is that this list will have a fair match-up against anything you can put up in Vintage, played correctly you are probably in favor.

I am sorry if my English is not perfect. I am from Sweden so please be gentle.
Cheers

(Edited the title for proper punctuation)

[madmanmike25]

I would guess that there are 2 reasons (at least) that people haven't been playing too much 5c stax.

1.)  Workshop mana cannot be used to cast the broken spells.

2.)  Lodestone Golem is the real deal.  Sadly he affects those same broken spells you want to cast.

Those are two very, and I mean VERY, oversimplified reasons I know.  I can only speak from my own experience with 5c Shop decks and I personally disliked the consistency I found.  So let those two be my reasons only.  I hated hands where I had Workshop and a bunch of colored spells, or 2 City of Brass and Smokestack.  Sometimes the ability to tutor up the perfect card just didn't happen fast enough to save me.

I really disagree with your assessment that Lodestone Golem falls in the same category as Obsianus Golem as doing "nothing else than reducing life totals".  I don't even know if it's even worth discussing how utterly wrong that viewpoint is.  Have you seen his impact on Vintage lately???

All that said, there are still merits to 5c Stax.  I remember one of my favorites being the ability to abuse Sundering Titan.  Great Tinkerbot for the most part, and Welding him in/out is just stupid good.

Mox Opal seems made for the deck as well.  I like your assessment of exchanging with enemy Mox Opals.  How many times has that happened?   

Seems like you have a well-balanced deck here.  If 5c Stax were played more, I'm sure it could put up numbers in the right hands.  I just think that a lot of those hands are busy playing (arguably) stronger decks.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I had 5c Stax put together a few months ago. It still played okay against blue decks but was a dog to more aggressive MUD builds unless you could establish control quickly with Welders. I played Lodestone Golem as a one-of and loved it. I'd even Tinker for it. Otherwise, our lists are pretty similar.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I run a 5 color shop deck myself at times (when I'm not using oath), and it is stupidly strong and consistent.  I however, play more for speed while controlling.  Lodestone golem, as mike points out, is worth his weight in gold.  He is not just a 4 turn clock, he's an extra mostly-one-sided sphere of resistance.  I run 4 thorns and 4 lodestones and the majority of my deck gets hit by only one or none of those two resistors, whereas my opponent is usually hit by both.  

Here's my list for reference:

// Lands
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Wasteland
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Ancient Tomb
    4  City of Brass
    2  Glimmervoid
    1  Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
    4  Lodestone Golem
    3  Goblin Welder
    2  Sylvok Replica
    1  Sundering Titan
    3  Precursor Golem
    2  Metalworker
    3  Phyrexian Metamorph

// Spells
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Thorn of Amethyst
    4  Tangle Wire
    4  Chalice of the Void
    1  Trinisphere
    1  Tinker
    1  Sword of Fire and Ice
    1  Staff of Domination

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Sylvok Replica
SB: 3  Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 4  Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3  Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1  Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 2  Ancient Grudge
SB: 1  Sphere of Resistance

Smokestack is nice once you start building a lock, but i often find it too slow.  Also, without an active welder or crucible, it forces you to trade lock pieces or mana sources to kill your opponent's lands/moxen.  It's a decent trade, but not awesome.  Also, when drawn later game, it really takes too long to force your opponents to remove threats rather than extra lands (i.e. if your opponent has an oath and a couple lands, you'll be dead before he sacs his creature/oath).

Your build also has 0 chalice and 5 resistors compared to my 9 (and yours affect you equally to your opponent).  Being able to shut off your opponents permanents/mana with an early chalice is crucial.  Also, blocking oaths and hurkylls and fish with a fast chalice @2 is gamebreaking for most.  Storm also has little chance of going off with a chalice @0 or 1 without removing it first.

Metalworker turn 1 lets me lock out the game on turn 2 for the most part, though it is not really needed.  It does however serve as extra "crucibles" in the mirror.  I also don't run crucible which is debatable, but I find them in the same boat as smokestack.  With so many basic/fetch lands in decks these days, crucible has lost bang for the buck.  Also, with no bazaar, tutors, or crop rot, it loses a lot of worth.  Bazaar, in my build, often causes me to discard things I'd rather play.  Tangles, spheres, and threats are all things I want to cast, and there's nothing I want to "dig" for.

Metamorphs are additional spheres/lodestones/welders/tangles as well as copying oath fatties, BSC, tarmgoyfs, etc.  I used to have hellkite/trike/duplicant in these slots, but 3 mana vs 6 mana is big, and often I'd be facing nothing I want to remove, but would really benefit from a second lodestone.  This guy shines in those situations.  Sylvoks I love, and ran 4 at one point, but found that with welder and tinker i can get/recur him when needed, but don't end up with a ton of 1/3s in the case i don't need to blow something up.  SoFI was an addition to offset 4 sylvok/2 metalworker, but now that I am down to 2 sylvok it is less crucial.  However, it does half the attacks needed from a lodestone and is nice for protecting welders vs repeal/chain/bolt.  Ancient grudge is heavily played vs shops, so it at least means that one casting of it hits the sword and not the golem it protects.  Vs fish, SoFI is a wrecking ball.  It is at the very least a draw engine and speed, even when the protection is negligable.  A singleton doesn't seem to hurt, but is probably a "weak" spot.  With all my critters (and welder can carry it too!), it is never dead.  

Precursors I like better than panther and better than wurmcoil.  Dealing 18 damage in 2 turns while being able to deliver a beating even against trygon/jace is great.  for 4 mana I can panther to kill jace, or for 5 mana I can kill jace and deal damage to my opponent, while being left with 6 or 9 damage for future swings.  

Staff is cute tricks with metalworker obviously, but it has utility on its own these days.  With metamorphs copying the biggest guy on the table, I can afford to swing, then untap him for the blocks.  Vs a BSC, I can just tap 4 mana (not hard with tomb/moxen) and keep BSC or any oath guy at bay.  Even Emrakul gets tapped before swinging, which is a downfall to Maze of Ith (you still sac 6).  Later game, or if i have tolarian, I get a draw engine out of it too.  With tinker, I can often find the second piece of the combo, should 1 be in play, though both have utility on their own.

I run 3 welder, because sometimes I don't want to topdeck welders as opposed to substantial threats....especially early game.

Crop rot is nice, and in my deck not great because I have no crucible or maze or bazaar, but it is a card that always scared me.  If I cast crop rot and then it gets pierced/mistepped/force of willed, I am -1 card, -1 land...and that's bad tempo.  It has great synergies in the right deck, and yours qualifies, but the countered consequence was too much for me to go with....also, costing multiple mana with thorn or golem makes it tough.  Again, I think running less than 9 sphere is a big mistake for shops (esp with no chalice so they have virtually no mana hindrance).

Balance obviously doesn't work in my build, and I rely on sylvoks/metamorphs to do what claim/grudge do for you.  I think the biggest thing that you are underestimating about "guys that just beat" is that a deck that has a ton of answers can handle a lot of situations, but a "dead opponent" is ALWAYS the right answer to any situation.  If you are fine running out to turn 30 and beating with welders, that's grand, but give them many turns to come back.  If you kill them by turn 5 with lots of sphere effects and tangles, they have a much smaller window to come back.  "Dead" is always a better answer than any "answer".

[Magnus76]

Thanks everybody for your reply!

@madmanmike: I am fully aware what Lodestone Golem does to the game and I have tried him in several tournaments with success. I know he is a huge asset and that he alone has changed Vintage. I am just saying that for my playstyle he does not fit. My objection to Lodestone in the types of decks that I prefer to play is:
1) Against MUD he is dead meat. He negatively affects my Welders and artifact hate when I go monored and a large number of bombs if I go 5c while he does nothing negative to the MUD player and most often has to stay on defence. Actually, I rather have Obstianus against MUD since he at least successfully blocks enemy Lodestone and survives and at the same time does not make my colored spells worse. Enemy + own Lodestone (not an unlikely scenario) makes my Welders cost 3 non-shop mana while he happily can keep throwing his beasts without penalty.
2) He introduces one thing traditional Stax is no good at: dealing damage. In MUD he is ideal since he enforces Mud's game plan: dealing a lot of damage, quick at the same time as making enemy slower to recover. In Stax he feels like a sphere that does not affect moxen (for four mana) and that also does not share the game plan of the rest of the cards.

I definitely agree that there are very strong monored builds with Lodestone but when you go to the bottom he does not quite seem optimal when you compare to his position in MUD. In MUD he is perfect since he checks all criteria for the decks purpose. My statement is taking stand against Lodestone, I know his position. I am just not a creature player (I would NEVER play Tarmogoyf even if they forced me to), I do not feel thrilled by winning matches through resolving Lodestone and Chalice@0 T1 and a random Tangle Wire a turn after that. I feel thrilled by making the right decision with Tutors and Welders. The question is: Does that attitude automatically put me in second league or is it possible to build colored Stax variants to the premier league.

Regarding trading Mox Opal, that has happened twice in tournaments, one time it was crucial since I got an artifact in his yard to exchange for his Time Vault. The next thing I was doing was continuously changing back the Opals, killing his artifacts.

@WhiteDragon: I have tried the combination Thorn-Lodestone many times, often successfully. The problem with them is that to cover everything you have to have both online. Thorn alone will let enemy cast Trygon or Bob, a lonesome Lodestone may be more solid byt enemy can still get tons of mana from his moxen. That is what I like with Sphere; it allways affects everything equally bad. There is no shortcut and, as I wrote above, against MUD both Thorn and Lodestone will only hurt me, not my enemy. In MUD I think both Thorn and Lodestone is far better than Sphere, since you are faster than Bob and also likely to be faster than Trygon. In Stax I do not think this is the case, I often feel I need solid pieces that allow no shortcut.

Metamorphs I have yet to try out more and I will do so by cutting my colored artifact and enchantment hate.

I understand that you like damage and that you maybe does not care how you win, just that you win. Your choices of cards heavily depend on creatures and I think your list looks quite solid. What is your experiences with playing it against MUD? How do you stand against TPS? Jace?

@Lochinvar: I can understand a singleton Lodestone somewhat, but do you not think Karn is better? How did you cope with MUD?

Additional comments:
I feel Trike is good, since he is effective against Jace. I am also felling dubious to include many high cc spells since I want to be able to play what I draw. That is the reason why I have omitted Sundering Titan (I hate to say it but 8 mana sucks to hardcast). I also like Sensei's Divining Top in 5c since it increases your chances to draw the unfair cards and it can save you against Jace.

How good is Choke today (as a SB card)? Anyone tried it?

[Blue Lotus]

I think you would want 2x Bazaar with crucible, welder, and just redundant lock pieces.

Riftstone portal would also be helpful but just be too cute. You might want to try it out. I would cut nature's claim and maybe gemstone mine as I never liked throwing away perms in a stax build.

[Prospero]

As much as I'd like to say that 5C is a viable deck now, I don't believe that it is. 

The crux of the problem is this: Workshop decks have advanced to a point where you effectively must play Lodestone Golem.  If you're running Lodestones you're also running at least three Ancient Tombs, preferably four.  This puts some added stress on the 5C mana base, as it cuts back on your rainbow lands and your ability to run some of the specialty lands that you'd like to run. 

In doing some of the initial work in testing for GenCon, I put together the following list:

1x Tinker
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
4x Goblin Welder

1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
5x Moxen
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Ratchet Bomb
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Tangle Wire
1x Trinisphere
4x Lodestone Golem
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Lodestone Golem
1x Karn
1x Sundering Titan

1x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy
3x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wasteland

The list sucks.  You still go .500 against Gush and you don't really get any true benefit from running the additional colors. 

Lodestone, obviously, doesn't play well with colored spells, so I sought to limit the number of colored spells that I ran.  Vamp, DT, Tinker and Welders were all that you really wanted anyways.  Still, there were too many games where I couldn't get my colors online (because of Lodestone, etc.) or games where I just hit too many lands (as the mana count got pushed up.)  The really frustrating games were the ones where I hit too many lands and still didn't hit the right ones.

The give and take of the deck that was beautiful art two years ago is nothing more than noise now.  I had more fun playing 5C Stax than any other deck in Vintage and those days are over now.  5C was the Keeper of Shop decks.  Like Keeper, this deck is dead.

There is still art in Shops.  People who think that Shops are rigid and unable to adapt are foolish.  While 5C might not be the answer, there is a flavor of Shops for every metagame and I'm sure that you'll find one that is capable of handling the field that you play in.

[Prospero]

You may find, in your testing, that the Shop decks that you build want to have as few colored spells as possible.  Make sure that you identify what's crucial (if you're playing a colored Shop deck) and find a way to include it with the proper mana base.

[desolutionist]

The crux of the problem is this: Workshop decks have advanced to a point where you effectively must play Lodestone Golem

I'd like to know how you've arrived at this conclusion.  In my experience with the format, you always want to be playing the most powerful turn 1 cards (Black Lotus, Tinker, Ancestral Recall, etc.) and Prison style strategies have been able to abuse Balance.  If playing Lodestone Golem somehow makes these cards wrong to play, maybe it is Lodestone Golem that it is wrong to play.  Pre-Lodestone, in the right Shop deck, Juggernaut was awesome. (see Guilded Claw)  While Lodestone Golem easily replaces Juggernaut in some decks, does it actually automatically go into every Shop deck?  I've noticed, Nick, that you have not been using Chalice of the Void or Smokestack in some of your Shop decks; couldn't you at one time claim that Chalice belongs in every Shop deck?

If you think about Lodestone Golem, it doesn't stop Black Lotus, KeyVault, and several pieces of artifact acceleration.  It allows your opponent to put mana permanents onto the table, making its relevant ability all not that relevant.  In my opinion, its just a better Juggernaut.  You wouldn't play Juggernaut in 5c Stax, so why play Lodestone Golem?  It doesn't fit the strategy and it isn't good enough to justify the exclusion of cards that give you lucky opportunities.  If your blue opponents are playing cards such as Yawgmoth's Will and Necropotence, why force yourself to "play fair"?  5c Stax is like the Grim Long of Workshop; you want to go broken on turn 1.  Lodestone Golem doesn't fit...

[madmanmike25]

Lodestone Golem doesn't fit...

No, not unless you play with 7 of them:

4x Lodestone Golem
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Lodestone Golem

If you really want to go broken, there are far better decks to play than 5c Shop.  Again, that doesn't mean that it's not a competitive deck.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

The crux of the problem is this: Workshop decks have advanced to a point where you effectively must play Lodestone Golem

I'd like to know how you've arrived at this conclusion.  In my experience with the format, you always want to be playing the most powerful turn 1 cards (Black Lotus, Tinker, Ancestral Recall, etc.) and Prison style strategies have been able to abuse Balance.  If playing Lodestone Golem somehow makes these cards wrong to play, maybe it is Lodestone Golem that it is wrong to play.  Pre-Lodestone, in the right Shop deck, Juggernaut was awesome. (see Guilded Claw)  While Lodestone Golem easily replaces Juggernaut in some decks, does it actually automatically go into every Shop deck?  I've noticed, Nick, that you have not been using Chalice of the Void or Smokestack in some of your Shop decks; couldn't you at one time claim that Chalice belongs in every Shop deck?

If you think about Lodestone Golem, it doesn't stop Black Lotus, KeyVault, and several pieces of artifact acceleration.  It allows your opponent to put mana permanents onto the table, making its relevant ability all not that relevant.  In my opinion, its just a better Juggernaut.  You wouldn't play Juggernaut in 5c Stax, so why play Lodestone Golem?  It doesn't fit the strategy and it isn't good enough to justify the exclusion of cards that give you lucky opportunities.  If your blue opponents are playing cards such as Yawgmoth's Will and Necropotence, why force yourself to "play fair"?  5c Stax is like the Grim Long of Workshop; you want to go broken on turn 1.  Lodestone Golem doesn't fit...

Do you remember how poorly shops decks where performing before lodestone golem? Those were the 5c stax decks you are saying are so good.

[Prospero]

The crux of the problem is this: Workshop decks have advanced to a point where you effectively must play Lodestone Golem

I'd like to know how you've arrived at this conclusion.  In my experience with the format, you always want to be playing the most powerful turn 1 cards (Black Lotus, Tinker, Ancestral Recall, etc.) and Prison style strategies have been able to abuse Balance.  If playing Lodestone Golem somehow makes these cards wrong to play, maybe it is Lodestone Golem that it is wrong to play.  Pre-Lodestone, in the right Shop deck, Juggernaut was awesome. (see Guilded Claw)  While Lodestone Golem easily replaces Juggernaut in some decks, does it actually automatically go into every Shop deck?  I've noticed, Nick, that you have not been using Chalice of the Void or Smokestack in some of your Shop decks; couldn't you at one time claim that Chalice belongs in every Shop deck?

If you think about Lodestone Golem, it doesn't stop Black Lotus, KeyVault, and several pieces of artifact acceleration.  It allows your opponent to put mana permanents onto the table, making its relevant ability all not that relevant.  In my opinion, its just a better Juggernaut.  You wouldn't play Juggernaut in 5c Stax, so why play Lodestone Golem?  It doesn't fit the strategy and it isn't good enough to justify the exclusion of cards that give you lucky opportunities.  If your blue opponents are playing cards such as Yawgmoth's Will and Necropotence, why force yourself to "play fair"?  5c Stax is like the Grim Long of Workshop; you want to go broken on turn 1.  Lodestone Golem doesn't fit...

There are two things that have pushed the necessity of Lodestone in your Shop deck:

1.  Shop Prison decks have typically had a problem fighting Shop Aggro decks.  Lodestone, as you have noted, is better than Juggernaut at playing the role that Shop Aggro needs.  Running your own helps control this.

2.  Lodestone leads to many cheap wins, more so since the printing of Phyrexian Metamorph.  Lodestone plus a few pieces of disruption is often a game, especially against a pilot who doesn't have Force of Will for that turn one play.

Lodestone leads to some easy wins and Lodestone complicates playing colored spells.  You're right, not every deck that could play Juggernaut wanted to play Juggernaut.  But Lodestone isn't Juggernaut, it's a semi-Sphere effect as well as a clock.  Juggernaut isn't the same kind of card because Juggernaut isn't both disruption and a clock - it's just a clock.

You are correct - Lodestone doesn't stop fast mana and it doesn't necessarily stop a lethal Vault/Key.  Then again, Lodestone is just one card in a deck of 60 and if your deck was built properly then you have other cards in your deck that can accomplish this.

I disagree regarding your assessment of 5C.  5C was a control deck and, now, it isn't the hardest control deck out there - something like Espresso is.  5C couldn't win the game off the back of playing a few spells in succession over the course of one turn, whereas Grim Long could.  You were always concerned about what your plays from the turn before led you to, what the optimal play was for that turn, and what it meant for the turn after that - there was no real point at which you 'went off', though there were points in the game where your opponent was locked.

The crux of the problem is this: Workshop decks have advanced to a point where you effectively must play Lodestone Golem

I'd like to know how you've arrived at this conclusion.  In my experience with the format, you always want to be playing the most powerful turn 1 cards (Black Lotus, Tinker, Ancestral Recall, etc.) and Prison style strategies have been able to abuse Balance.  If playing Lodestone Golem somehow makes these cards wrong to play, maybe it is Lodestone Golem that it is wrong to play.  Pre-Lodestone, in the right Shop deck, Juggernaut was awesome. (see Guilded Claw)  While Lodestone Golem easily replaces Juggernaut in some decks, does it actually automatically go into every Shop deck?  I've noticed, Nick, that you have not been using Chalice of the Void or Smokestack in some of your Shop decks; couldn't you at one time claim that Chalice belongs in every Shop deck?

If you think about Lodestone Golem, it doesn't stop Black Lotus, KeyVault, and several pieces of artifact acceleration.  It allows your opponent to put mana permanents onto the table, making its relevant ability all not that relevant.  In my opinion, its just a better Juggernaut.  You wouldn't play Juggernaut in 5c Stax, so why play Lodestone Golem?  It doesn't fit the strategy and it isn't good enough to justify the exclusion of cards that give you lucky opportunities.  If your blue opponents are playing cards such as Yawgmoth's Will and Necropotence, why force yourself to "play fair"?  5c Stax is like the Grim Long of Workshop; you want to go broken on turn 1.  Lodestone Golem doesn't fit...

Do you remember how poorly shops decks where performing before lodestone golem? Those were the 5c stax decks you are saying are so good.

This is 100% correct.

[Magnus76]

I want to comment some things according to my experience with Shops:
1) I feel 5c is the least aggressive Shop deck and you always make the deck a favor if you do not rush things as needed with the creature-based Shop variants. Lodestone screams Tempo and the general idea with putting him in the deck is to explode faster than your enemy. My play stile with 5c is totally different compared to Uba, Lodestone-stax or MUD, all of the latter being much more depending on actually doing something quickly before your enemy resolves anything dangerous. Here is where 5c instead sorts the alternatives and you can finally know what the correct EOT target for Vampiric is. It is a reactive, rather slow deck strategy compared to Lodestone-stax that says: OK I've got Lodestone and Chalice@0, try to get out of it before it is too late.

2) I also feel that 5c is the most skill-demanding of all Shop decks (with red variants coming up second) which makes the debate even more trickier (since there are other skill-demanding blue decks that the skilled players tend to enjoy more). When Stax won in 2005 everybody thought i was wrong: Slaver was the deck of the year. Trinisphere was out of business and so was Stax. You would certainly be beaten by Slaver sooner or later in a tournament so why just not join the winning team instead of sitting in the loser's lounge? Actually most good players where playing Slaver but Roland showed them you did not have to. I, myself, am better off with Shops than with blue, but I like the challenge of Magic and do not like to throw everything on the table and just look questionably on my enemy: do you have an answer? If he does: I loose, if he don't: I win. Why just not play an ordinary die game where the highest win? Or play dredge? The look on the T8-list show not only what is the best decks, but what is the most popular decks among the good players and blue clearly is at the moment. I feel that skill is a big issue in Vintage and the question of which deck is the strongest must stand in relation to who is playing it. I would even go as far as claiming that every deck type attracts its typical players, because of personality.

3) Against MUD, Lodestone is a fairly common T1 enemy play. If not fallowed by Chalice@0, however, it is much less of a threat and I have four turns to find an answer. Obviously if I kept the wrong hand (only Spheres and Smokestacks) I will likely loose, but if I have moxen and colored bombs I will likely have time enough to dig for an answer. Also, the metamorphs are not so happy coming into play when I Grudge their target-to-be Lodestone.

4) I have tried several Shop decks and the main conclusion is that 5c is the best at coming back mid-game. The other basically run out of fuel if the enemy destroys your initial plays. An interesting question is thus: is it too vulnerable during the initial turns? My experience suggest it isn't.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think you underestimate the lock of aggro shops.  The deck doesn't say "shop, mox, chalice, lodestone...get out before it's too late"  It does that on turn 1, meaning you can drop a land and cast nothing, then on turn 2 goes "wasteland, tangle wire, sphere, beat for 5....now it IS too late.  You'll never cast a spell before you're dead."

[Magnus76]

I think you underestimate the lock of aggro shops.  The deck doesn't say "shop, mox, chalice, lodestone...get out before it's too late"  It does that on turn 1, meaning you can drop a land and cast nothing, then on turn 2 goes "wasteland, tangle wire, sphere, beat for 5....now it IS too late.  You'll never cast a spell before you're dead."

Yes, to that I loose, but so does practically anything/anyone else. Actually he does not need the Tangle Wire, with the first start it looks pretty tough for 5c to recover. Fortunately it is not a that common start or we could all stop playing different decks and just play MUD altogether. More likely is Workshop-mox-Lodestone go to which I have several options:
1) resolving my own Tangle Wire which buys me time.
2) Getting my Crucible online and making Tangle Wire/Smokestack even more devastating to the enemy.
3) Finding my artifact hate with my own moxen-mana. After this Welder will do what he is supposed to do.

I am not saying that I am in favor pre-board to that opening, it is just that you cannot consistently count on enemy laying out the worst possible threats. I am just saying that I have met several MUD builds and I have won far more matches than I have lost. To me that shows that the risk of enemy ruining my chances to get back in the match is not greater than my chances to get on top. I am actually quite thrilled to meet other shop decks, they often turn out quite tight matches which I, so far, mostly have won. Besides that I am on the play in half of the matches and my deck can put up some decent T1-plays as well (since the enemy usually has no way to ruin my artifacts).

[TheWhiteDragon]

I wasn't pointing out that line of play to suggest it stops you, I was pointing it out to suggest it is BETTER than your possible lines of play vs the field.  You seem to think beaters are not effective threats, and lodestone is prison + threat.  If you respond to that with tangle, you don't by time, you actually save one beating while tapping yourself out thereafter.  A smokestack is even worse, because you'll be dead before you ramp up ebough - killing your own board in the process.

I like 5c decks myself, but i don't see how it is in any better position than r/g or brown mud at the moment.  Killing your opponent while holding a soft lock is just as or more effective than building up to a hard lock and beating with welders.  A 5/3 with chalices/spheres/null rods/tangles/etc is better than smokestacks with crucibles.  My current shop deck has no crucibles or smokestacks at all, just because they are too slow in general, and crucible is only really good in the mirror that runs no basics.  I know r/g shops with welders/shamans/grudges main won't have trouble handling a slower 5c deck.  I think the question is r/g, or brown....but not 5c.  If I ran 5c at all, it would be to access R/G, and then maybe a splash of blue as in ancestral, walk, tinker.

[LotusHead]

My thoughts on 5c Shops:

I absolutely regret every time I run less than 4 Welders maindeck, though I have sided them out.
I absolutely regret every time I run less than 4 Chalice of the Void maindeck.
Lodestone Golem isn't necessary in say, maybe, shop affinity builds (Cranial Plating and the like), but is a gift from Wizards R&D in every other deck.

Know your  meta, and have your SB reflect that.

Lastly, on the first list in this thread, if you want to run Sylvok Replica and Goblin Welder, then run at least Crucible of worlds and 1 artifact land/mishra's factory.  Both are fine cards, and all 4 together is usually pretty awesome.

[Magnus76]

I wasn't pointing out that line of play to suggest it stops you, I was pointing it out to suggest it is BETTER than your possible lines of play vs the field.  You seem to think beaters are not effective threats, and lodestone is prison + threat.  If you respond to that with tangle, you don't by time, you actually save one beating while tapping yourself out thereafter.  A smokestack is even worse, because you'll be dead before you ramp up ebough - killing your own board in the process.

I like 5c decks myself, but i don't see how it is in any better position than r/g or brown mud at the moment.  Killing your opponent while holding a soft lock is just as or more effective than building up to a hard lock and beating with welders.  A 5/3 with chalices/spheres/null rods/tangles/etc is better than smokestacks with crucibles.  My current shop deck has no crucibles or smokestacks at all, just because they are too slow in general, and crucible is only really good in the mirror that runs no basics.  I know r/g shops with welders/shamans/grudges main won't have trouble handling a slower 5c deck.  I think the question is r/g, or brown....but not 5c.  If I ran 5c at all, it would be to access R/G, and then maybe a splash of blue as in ancestral, walk, tinker.

I understand that you do not think 5c Stax is a good deck but I still cannot understand several of your statements in other ways than that you have not tried it enough. Your opinions that rg won't have trouble with 5c or that Tangle/Smokestack is not good against Shop-mox-Lodestone suggests I must have made the impossible in all those matches where I actually won against these decks/plays. In contrast to you I am not saying MUD is not a strong deck (though I think it is really boring to play, which is one of my most important reasons to check out alternatives), in my experiences in playing against MUD, however, I cannot say I am not in favor with 5c (counting sideboard cards). Maybe I have just been extremely lucky or I have just met bad players, but to tell the truth I do not think so.

I agree with your statement that MUD have stronger opening than 5c, this was exactly what I meant before when I was comparing Uba/monoR/MUD against 5c in tempo. 5c is without doubt less aggressive and has weaker T1-plays than the others, with the benefit that it is really dangerous if it survives to mid-game. In the tourneys I have played with 5c this year, I somehow often do exactly that in which case I mostly win.

I think beaters are effective threats. I also think Lodestone is a real issue, I do not understand why you would think I did not? I am just bored playing Lodestone and I do not want to join what everybody else are playing. That is why I, this year, have picked up the deck I always longed to play (after 5 years with monoR versions, which were all pretty solid but lacked that magic feeling a bit). I felt (and still feel) like an underdog in the tourneys I attended with 5c but the solidity and stability of the deck have surprised me several times and I have been doing rather well as a lone 5c-player. That is why I wonder if this deck is really a forgotten treasure since I find it unlikely that I could have been so tremendously lucky all the time. Many many times I end up with the thought: OK so you play that, but I have a good reply in hand. The situation seldom looks hopeless (except against 1st turn kills from Storm, Lodestone+Chalice@0 followed by Waste+Tangle, T1 Time Vault+Key), even Oath on Turn 1 is possible to deal with, which felt much more difficult when I was running more creatures.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think that 5c decks are fun and utilize the best in magic.  I think that 5c and shops are NOT the best.  I appreciate you wanting to play a deck with a more "magic" feel, as I would like to run my old UWR serra angel/fireball/shivan dragon/counterspell/disenchant deck again.  That had a lot of magic feel to it....but I would never hope to win a sizeable tourney with it (FYI - sizeable to me is 40+ players, and things lower don't really count imho). 
The things that you concede about other decks having a stronger turn 1 play is EXACTLY why your list seems lacking.  This is vintage.  If you are not hosing the opponent on turn 1, you are just begging to get blown out of the water.  The exception being if you can hold a counter wall and go off yourself.  0 chalice and 5 resistors with no real clock is bad against a world of gush/bond, storm, and more dedicated blue control.  I never actually said your deck was worst AGAINST MUD, but I am saying against a field, your deck would probably be worse BY COMPARISON.  Even in my games vs storm or gush, if I drop land, welder, go....with no spheres or chalice, I am dead before I untap.  Now with mental mistep is running rampant, your lynchpin card has a big bullseye on it too.
Surviving to the midgame while not having a strong opening seems like a Vintage oxymoron to me, at least in my experience.  I either win early, lose early, or battle out until a later game via sphere/chalice or counterwalls....your deck has neither.

[Mantis]

As much as I'd like to say that 5C is a viable deck now, I don't believe that it is. 

The crux of the problem is this: Workshop decks have advanced to a point where you effectively must play Lodestone Golem.  If you're running Lodestones you're also running at least three Ancient Tombs, preferably four.  This puts some added stress on the 5C mana base, as it cuts back on your rainbow lands and your ability to run some of the specialty lands that you'd like to run. 

In doing some of the initial work in testing for GenCon, I put together the following list:

1x Tinker
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
4x Goblin Welder

1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
5x Moxen
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Ratchet Bomb
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Tangle Wire
1x Trinisphere
4x Lodestone Golem
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Lodestone Golem
1x Karn
1x Sundering Titan

1x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy
3x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wasteland

The list sucks.  You still go .500 against Gush and you don't really get any true benefit from running the additional colors. 

Lodestone, obviously, doesn't play well with colored spells, so I sought to limit the number of colored spells that I ran.  Vamp, DT, Tinker and Welders were all that you really wanted anyways.  Still, there were too many games where I couldn't get my colors online (because of Lodestone, etc.) or games where I just hit too many lands (as the mana count got pushed up.)  The really frustrating games were the ones where I hit too many lands and still didn't hit the right ones.

The give and take of the deck that was beautiful art two years ago is nothing more than noise now.  I had more fun playing 5C Stax than any other deck in Vintage and those days are over now.  5C was the Keeper of Shop decks.  Like Keeper, this deck is dead.

There is still art in Shops.  People who think that Shops are rigid and unable to adapt are foolish.  While 5C might not be the answer, there is a flavor of Shops for every metagame and I'm sure that you'll find one that is capable of handling the field that you play in.

I agree with you that 3 or 4 Ancient Tombs is pretty much required for a Shop deck after the printing of Lodestone Golem. However, perhaps we have to commit blasphemy and cut down on the number of Wastelands. Manabases have been tuned to be resistent to Wasteland anyway. I could see -2 Wasteland, +1 City of Brass, +1 Gemstone Mine pan out perfectly fine. Perhaps even go down to just 1 Waste or cut a Mana Vault for Mox Opal. You have Demonic and Vamp to go get Strip Mine to go with Crucible, so you might not need Wasteland in every game.

[Bibendum]

If you cut wastes you instantly weaken your other shop matchups as wasteland crucible is the same as strip crucible minus dealing with mono-red shops

[Prospero]

As much as I'd like to say that 5C is a viable deck now, I don't believe that it is. 

The crux of the problem is this: Workshop decks have advanced to a point where you effectively must play Lodestone Golem.  If you're running Lodestones you're also running at least three Ancient Tombs, preferably four.  This puts some added stress on the 5C mana base, as it cuts back on your rainbow lands and your ability to run some of the specialty lands that you'd like to run. 

In doing some of the initial work in testing for GenCon, I put together the following list:

1x Tinker
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
4x Goblin Welder

1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
5x Moxen
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Ratchet Bomb
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Tangle Wire
1x Trinisphere
4x Lodestone Golem
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Lodestone Golem
1x Karn
1x Sundering Titan

1x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy
3x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wasteland

The list sucks.  You still go .500 against Gush and you don't really get any true benefit from running the additional colors. 

Lodestone, obviously, doesn't play well with colored spells, so I sought to limit the number of colored spells that I ran.  Vamp, DT, Tinker and Welders were all that you really wanted anyways.  Still, there were too many games where I couldn't get my colors online (because of Lodestone, etc.) or games where I just hit too many lands (as the mana count got pushed up.)  The really frustrating games were the ones where I hit too many lands and still didn't hit the right ones.

The give and take of the deck that was beautiful art two years ago is nothing more than noise now.  I had more fun playing 5C Stax than any other deck in Vintage and those days are over now.  5C was the Keeper of Shop decks.  Like Keeper, this deck is dead.

There is still art in Shops.  People who think that Shops are rigid and unable to adapt are foolish.  While 5C might not be the answer, there is a flavor of Shops for every metagame and I'm sure that you'll find one that is capable of handling the field that you play in.

I agree with you that 3 or 4 Ancient Tombs is pretty much required for a Shop deck after the printing of Lodestone Golem. However, perhaps we have to commit blasphemy and cut down on the number of Wastelands. Manabases have been tuned to be resistent to Wasteland anyway. I could see -2 Wasteland, +1 City of Brass, +1 Gemstone Mine pan out perfectly fine. Perhaps even go down to just 1 Waste or cut a Mana Vault for Mox Opal. You have Demonic and Vamp to go get Strip Mine to go with Crucible, so you might not need Wasteland in every game.

Perhaps the mana bases are more stable in Europe, but many of the blue pilots in the States are currently running four color monstrosities.  Josh Potucek's U/R Landstill deck was the first blue deck I've seen in a while that ran two colors main.  Even then, he had his third color in the board and he was reliant on Mishra's Factories to help him win. 

Wasteland is very good over here right now.

Beyond that, I think that your point brings up an interesting counterpoint:  Is this deck an Aggro deck at heart, or is it a Prison deck at heart?  Many of the pieces that bleed from one Shop deck into another serve different functions in the two Shop variants.  A card like Chalice of the Void could be a tempo play in Cat Stax, but it's a lockpiece in something like Espresso Stax. 

So, are we taking 5C and turning it into an Aggro deck?  Espresso is still a Prison deck, but it does run four Lodestones – not because they're Juggernauts, but because they're Spheres with legs.  Juggeranaut would never see play in Espresso, but Juggeranaut has seen play in other Shop Aggro decks.  If we start sacrificing some of the Prison pieces that made this deck a control deck, then we're probably tilting more towards Aggro than we'd like.  And if we're just going to be a bad Aggro deck, then why not go all the way and try to be a good Aggro deck? 

Wasteland's role as land destruction is probably too important to cut.  That being said, even if there were infinite basics in an environment, it would lead me to try and make the deck a better Prison deck by cutting/adding other things.  I can't see a day when I'd want less than at least three Wastelands in my deck, but if that day did come, I'd probably look to replace Wastelands with something like Ports – or more mana to fuel different lockpieces.  It isn't that Wasteland is potentially bad – it's a question as to whether or not you believe that Prison is bad. 

JP also hits the nail on the head: there are other matches in which Wasteland is bound to shine.  If Shops, Dredge and other decks that are heavy on nonbasics (or run no basics at all) comprise a significant portion of the field (say 50% or better) then I can't see wanting less than four Wastes because they maintain such high utility in those matches. 

[forcethewill]

Nick I don't care how mulch you love lodestone golem. I will not let you run 7 copies unless I can run 8.

[Prospero]

Nick I don't care how mulch you love lodestone golem. I will not let you run 7 copies unless I can run 8.

I love my Lodestones, but what's better than Trinisphere?

[TheShop]

I really dont like lodestone in the way that many blue players were happy when brainstorm was restricted.  Stax has become too predictable as a result of lodestone's printing and is frankly becoming increasingly boring to play.

To put the world back in perspective:  a deck with 14 fucking lands has a consistent favorable matchup against a workshop deck running 20+ lock pieces. Something IS WRONG.

The spheres are either overcosted or too conditional. 
-Thorn IS too conditional.  We can afford the extra mana to play through real spheres, they cant.  Thorn is greedy.  Trygon is too good to play thorn. 
-Before the attack step, Lodestone is just a poor sphere.  He has to be functional as a sphere before he can deal 20 damage.  As a sphere, he costs 2 more mana than he should and has the worst drawback of all the spheres.  Laugh at the statement, but when opponent drops jewelry through the lodestone, or worse couters/removes him (basically timewalking themselves)...think about it again.

In the Trinisphere Era, decks played less than 4 Trinispheres because even though the card was amazing, it did not stop Rebuild or Rack and Ruin.  Trinisphere is objectively the best Stax card ever printed. 

Thorn needs to go away and possibly the premise that lodestone is an auto-include.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I don't know of ANY stax deck in the 4 trini era that didn't run 4.  Shop/trini was the best possible play.  Lodestone is not a bad sphere at all since it hinders blue, storm, hate, and fish without touching your own spells.  Sphere is a good hinderance to everything, but you can only run 4 and 1 trini.  Lodestone's clock is not to be underestimated.  Also, since most shop decks are and should be running chalices or null rod, if I drop lodestone, then follow it with a free chalice @0 that they can no longer counter, I am quite happy.  I don't understand how sphere is so much better at stopping moxen, they just tap a land to play a mox and tap the mox to play a mox, etc...so that next turn they have 4+ mana and you have no threat.  Sphere in that case is a timewalk.  Lodestone is the nuts.  And if you are complaining that lodestone makes shopdecks unfun and predictable, then that is obviously a sign that the card is crazy good that it is so universally played in shops.  And as far as boring, I don't think winning is boring.  You can either play to obliterate the opponent, or you can play to have fun in a game that you have a fair chance of losing.  Very rare to have a consistent winner that is "fair and fun".  Play to win or play to have fun, but it's typically a choice when you are talking about tournaments that you plan on placing 1st in.

[TheShop]

4 trinisphere were not always played.  see cron starcity p9 winning lists.  Your stance here is historically inaccurate.

Your sphere example:  you unfairly compare a single sphere to lodestone + chalice.  if you compare lodestone alone to sphere alone...it should be obvious why sphere beats lodestone...a mox at one mana is strictly worse than a mox at 0 mana.

Predictable is bad...blue players know that all they have to do is counter the first sphere, then play around a conditional sphere to land the game-winning removal.  I am not confident in MUD's ability to CONSISTENTLY put a blue deck in the position where they are unable to beat a clock slower than extended zoo...

I am much more concerned with the reduction in thorns run than in arguing the merits of lodestone vs colored spells...I think colors could be played with one but not both types of suboptimal sphere...see detwiller's thorn 5color.

[LotusHead]

4 trinisphere were not always played.  see cron starcity p9 winning lists.  Your stance here is historically inaccurate.

That is one list out of hundreds of others, the vast majority of shop players played 4 trinisphere.  That Chron played 3 is about as close to 4 as you can get.

No one would willingly run 1 or 2 trinispheres if 4 were legal.  3 Is acceptable since it's not a guaranteed first turn play, nor is it effective in multiples or good in lategame.

[TheShop]

Lodestone is also not guaranteed early...is poor if opponent survives to later in the game...more importantly:  thorn is being played around by trygon and bob in a similar manner to how rebuild and rack and ruin(and sb ancient tombs)  played around trinisphere in the past.  Thorn needs to go...and when it does, we can talk about other options...if they happen to be colors or not there will be options.

[TheWhiteDragon]

A card by itself is never going to be good in shops....but ask yourself this:  If you can drop a chalice or null rod (standard shop mox hate) and a lodestone or a sphere of resistance, which would you rather?  You can drop 10 spheres, and if they aren't killed, they can get out of it.  Sometimes a chalice and a lodestone can go the distance with just those 2 cards.  If you drop in ANY 3rd spell/lock...tangle, lodestone, sphere, trini, smokestack, wasteland...f*ing rashidan port...and you will go the distance.