GW 2K12ish

[imRauSch]

Finally, Thorn got legs for a reasonable cost. And first strike. Bye Glowrider..

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127171&stc=1&d=1326344441

[xouman]

Bye? Those cards get better in multiples, and besides is a legend. I can see a weenie prison deck, tried it 2 years ago with little success, but this card adds value.

[Blue Lotus]

Well holy hell dark ascension adds a lot to this deck. Considering many cards were focused on fighting tinker (mindcensor, stp, to an extent kataki) definitely needs an overhaul.

Of course, its obvious the format is going to change dramatically so until some top dog emerges, gw will be going on the shelf for the time being.

I expect shops are going to be VERY popular. Aiming for that could be a good start.

[ModflyDesign]

Just got 2nd at a 22 man event with this list:


Second – Brandon Brown
“Cat Jesus Beatdown”

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Mental Misstep
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Noxious Revival
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
4 Path to Exile
3 Stony Silence
2 Beast Within
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Nature’s Claim
4 Kataki, War’s Wage
4 Wasteland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Forest
3 Plains
3 Savannah
1 Strip Mine
2 Ghost Quarter

SB:
3 Ravenous Trap
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Dismember
4 Leonin Arbiter

I got completely hosed in the final to a good player playing Landstill w/ Engineered Explosives x4 main.

After playing I would take out the Scavenging Ooze for the 4th Tarmogoyf, and turn the 2 beast withins into 1 more Noxious Revival and 1 Green Sun's Zenith.

The deck played solid all day. 
Here is the link to the tourney report:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43851.0

[Blue Lotus]

Congrats on the finish! I was avoiding playing tarmogoyf because it was hard for me to pump quickly but mental misstep seems like a good fix for that.

I'm wondering how path to exile worked in conjunction with the standard mana denial package of stony silence and strip effects. I have always assumed it would be terrible and have never tried it.

[boggyb]

I got completely hosed in the final to a good player playing Landstill w/ Engineered Explosives x4 main.

After playing I would take out the Scavenging Ooze for the 4th Tarmogoyf, and turn the 2 beast withins into 1 more Noxious Revival and 1 Green Sun's Zenith.

The deck played solid all day. 
Here is the link to the tourney report:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43851.0

Whaat? I am really surprised you lost that finals match, getting 'hosed' no less. Was it the Engineered Explosives that did you in? Seems like it would be one of your most favorable match-ups.

[ModflyDesign]

I was never able to get a stony on board. The deck had so many counters. And he always had the mana to pop the explosives right away or he didn't drop it.  Very tough to deal with.

[Stormanimagus]

I was never able to get a stony on board. The deck had so many counters. And he always had the mana to pop the explosives right away or he didn't drop it.  Very tough to deal with.

Umm. . . if Silence was on the board he should not have been popping explosives at all. Did you ever land a Silence? Also, why were you keeping Silence in vs. Landstill? They run like 2 moxes and a lotus.

-Storm

[ModflyDesign]

If you read the quote you quoted Storm it clearly says that I in fact DID NOT get a stony silence on board.

And if a deck that is main decking 4 engineered explosives beat me game one, do you think it is a good idea to BOARD OUT the silences?
Also, the artifact hate in my deck wasn't good against it b/c he never played it in a position he would have to have it sit.  Only played it when he had the sac mana open.
I'm pretty sure that I am completely right in my decision to keep the stony in game 2...  Not sure about your logic in any of this... It's pretty cut and dry.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Keeping silence in vs me is the OBV CORRECT play...ee owns aggro so that's a no brainer...rod effects come out when your opponent is also on a null rod like deck but my latest landstill creation is not a null rod deck. My deck likes explosives right now more

[Blue Lotus]

I enjoy GW fish.  I actually also run a GUW and a GBW version.  things I have found are:

1) tarmgoyf is often just better than knight as it is faster, also counteracts a 3/3, and is not so dependent on the right colors cropping up. 

2) I find at LEAST 2 relic warders are necessary.  They stop oath just as well as nature's claim, but they also take care of tinker->BSC.  You have claims and plows, but warders are a 2/2 beater and handle both situations in a single card.  Plow can also be dead at times, so running 4 isn't thrilling.  Warder is NEVER dead since he can snag a mox and join your army at the least.  Since you have beast within too, I think claims loose a bit of bang.  I'd cut 1-2 plows and 1-2 claims to add 3+ warders.

3) plows timewalk your opponent.  You don't want to give them life.  Claims ALSO do this, so warder helps remove the artifact and do damage.  I suggest path to exiles over plows.  Not all decks are running a ton of basics, and if they see you are fish, they are certainly cracking fetches for basics anyway - leaving dual lands in their deck.  With all your answers and disruptive critters, the extra land probably won't hurt as much as giving them extra life - if they even can get a land.

4) Fauna shaman appears to suck.  It is disadvantage...ties up your mana and costs a creature to get a creature.  with wardens in the deck, fauna gets a definite boost as it basically tutors for disenchant...but you want to drop your army, not hold one to pitch to fauna.  fauna itself is a non-attacker if you use the ability and then have cost your mana to cast the critter you get.  That's -2 attacks.  One might be cute, but green sun's zenith is infinitely better since you have mostly green critters.

5)  You might want to contemplate running 4x MM.  Yes it sucks against you, but it also sucks for the opponent too.  Stoping their tutor for tinker, plow, fastbond, ancestral, etc is REALLY nice when you can do it for free or cast off a noble.

I never responded to these points b/c a lot of it was already addressed but I guess what I was saying before bears repeating.

Knight over tarm - this is a knight centric deck. Knight is a one card strip lock. This makes it better than life from the loam + strip or crucible + strip in a deck with little card draw and no tutors. This is NOT a beat down deck. The goal is to play hate bears and pressure until you land a knight and lock them out of the game.

LRW - I talked about avoiding  casting cost cards due to the 8 green one drops and the need to run lands that count as forests and plains to feed knight. However, the new cage may be a strict upgrade over root maze as it is easier to cast, has a smaller effect on your game plan and more splash hate. As I said earlier, the main deck may be retooled with these DA new cards.

STP + claim - does not time walk! You win most of your games with a nuking four lands and beating down with a 10/10 + 6-8 power from other guys. Furthermore the tempo you get from this efficient removal is, as I said before, a virtual time walk for the gw player.

Fauna Shaman - probably the worst card in the deck, but allows you to run 4x legends. Running 4 kataki, which you want to see ASAP and not being punished for it when you are topdecking helps win you games. Also if you are main decking cage GSZ is unplayable and you want a way to tutor for knight.

MM - This has been said in the rg thread but it bears repeating. With no card draw and no other counters it seems like a waste of space in the maindeck to try to pick a fight on the stack.

Anyway these are my thoughts on my GW. Obviously, there are many ways to build the deck as seen a few posts ago in this thread. If you want to go for beatdown + lock pieces then stp is pretty poor. But if you want to go for lock + land death which I think I play well then path is a poor choice. Doesn't mean one card is better than the other in every list.

[Guli]

I enjoy GW fish.  I actually also run a GUW and a GBW version.  things I have found are:

1) tarmgoyf is often just better than knight as it is faster, also counteracts a 3/3, and is not so dependent on the right colors cropping up.  

2) I find at LEAST 2 relic warders are necessary.  They stop oath just as well as nature's claim, but they also take care of tinker->BSC.  You have claims and plows, but warders are a 2/2 beater and handle both situations in a single card.  Plow can also be dead at times, so running 4 isn't thrilling.  Warder is NEVER dead since he can snag a mox and join your army at the least.  Since you have beast within too, I think claims loose a bit of bang.  I'd cut 1-2 plows and 1-2 claims to add 3+ warders.

3) plows timewalk your opponent.  You don't want to give them life.  Claims ALSO do this, so warder helps remove the artifact and do damage.  I suggest path to exiles over plows.  Not all decks are running a ton of basics, and if they see you are fish, they are certainly cracking fetches for basics anyway - leaving dual lands in their deck.  With all your answers and disruptive critters, the extra land probably won't hurt as much as giving them extra life - if they even can get a land.

4) Fauna shaman appears to suck.  It is disadvantage...ties up your mana and costs a creature to get a creature.  with wardens in the deck, fauna gets a definite boost as it basically tutors for disenchant...but you want to drop your army, not hold one to pitch to fauna.  fauna itself is a non-attacker if you use the ability and then have cost your mana to cast the critter you get.  That's -2 attacks.  One might be cute, but green sun's zenith is infinitely better since you have mostly green critters.

5)  You might want to contemplate running 4x MM.  Yes it sucks against you, but it also sucks for the opponent too.  Stoping their tutor for tinker, plow, fastbond, ancestral, etc is REALLY nice when you can do it for free or cast off a noble.

I never responded to these points b/c a lot of it was already addressed but I guess what I was saying before bears repeating.

Knight over tarm - this is a knight centric deck. Knight is a one card strip lock. This makes it better than life from the loam + strip or crucible + strip in a deck with little card draw and no tutors. This is NOT a beat down deck. The goal is to play hate bears and pressure until you land a knight and lock them out of the game.

LRW - I talked about avoiding   casting cost cards due to the 8 green one drops and the need to run lands that count as forests and plains to feed knight. However, the new cage may be a strict upgrade over root maze as it is easier to cast, has a smaller effect on your game plan and more splash hate. As I said earlier, the main deck may be retooled with these DA new cards.

STP + claim - does not time walk! You win most of your games with a nuking four lands and beating down with a 10/10 + 6-8 power from other guys. Furthermore the tempo you get from this efficient removal is, as I said before, a virtual time walk for the gw player.

Fauna Shaman - probably the worst card in the deck, but allows you to run 4x legends. Running 4 kataki, which you want to see ASAP and not being punished for it when you are topdecking helps win you games. Also if you are main decking cage GSZ is unplayable and you want a way to tutor for knight.

MM - This has been said in the rg thread but it bears repeating. With no card draw and no other counters it seems like a waste of space in the maindeck to try to pick a fight on the stack.

Anyway these are my thoughts on my GW. Obviously, there are many ways to build the deck as seen a few posts ago in this thread. If you want to go for beatdown + lock pieces then stp is pretty poor. But if you want to go for lock + land death which I think I play well then path is a poor choice. Doesn't mean one card is better than the other in every list.

I would not mind having 1 or 2 Fauna Shaman is a deck if I can find space for it. Like you stated it cycles dead cards and acts as a demonic tutor. It is a nice card to have with mana lying around and some cards in your hand. Other supplemental tactics could emerge as well, a non serious example is Basking Rootwalla.

I agree on STP. When casting it on say a Tinker bot, you should have forced them into the Tinker plan by cutting off other win conditions. STP is at its strongest when it acts as the last nail in the coffin. However, when playing another aggro deck, the life could play a huge roll in the endgame. This especially against decks that play a lot creatures. They can afford losing a couple of bears. Then again, those decks don't run high power creatures. STP is also very important against Dark Confidant and Metalworker. You don't want them to take a serious card or mana advantage.

MM is a tricky one. Catching that first tutor or recall can be a good trade. Also don't forget that people will run more and more STP/Bolts and so on. Problem is they also run MM most likely and then you just traded MM vs MM and the GW deck is not designed to win an attrition war. The broken blue stuff is. It might be better to play another 2 drop over MM and keep solid and steady after they do initial tutoring/drawing.

Running a lot 2 drops requires acceleration and this is were the moxes and esg's kick in. But I think not running Edric is a huge mistake. Edric is much much stronger than Knight as an effect. So I think right now the best deck is GW and a little splash of blue for a couple of Edric, walk/recall and maybe Trygon if you feel like that is a good Workshop plan. Personally I am testing out Daze because of the following reason; You want to cast a turn 1 two drop. And the only means to protect this against Force of Will is using Tundra/Daze since it is Gaddock or Thalia we want to cast on turn 1. No conclusions yet. Also Daze should work well against MM (it is 2 cmc) and with Thalia/Stony/Wastelands.

[nineisnoone]

3) plows timewalk your opponent.  You don't want to give them life.  Claims ALSO do this, so warder helps remove the artifact and do damage.  I suggest path to exiles over plows.  Not all decks are running a ton of basics, and if they see you are fish, they are certainly cracking fetches for basics anyway - leaving dual lands in their deck.  With all your answers and disruptive critters, the extra land probably won't hurt as much as giving them extra life - if they even can get a land.

4) Fauna shaman appears to suck.  It is disadvantage...ties up your mana and costs a creature to get a creature.  with wardens in the deck, fauna gets a definite boost as it basically tutors for disenchant...but you want to drop your army, not hold one to pitch to fauna.  fauna itself is a non-attacker if you use the ability and then have cost your mana to cast the critter you get.  That's -2 attacks.  One might be cute, but green sun's zenith is infinitely better since you have mostly green critters.

STP + claim - does not time walk! You win most of your games with a nuking four lands and beating down with a 10/10 + 6-8 power from other guys. Furthermore the tempo you get from this efficient removal is, as I said before, a virtual time walk for the gw player.

Fauna Shaman - probably the worst card in the deck, but allows you to run 4x legends. Running 4 kataki, which you want to see ASAP and not being punished for it when you are topdecking helps win you games. Also if you are main decking cage GSZ is unplayable and you want a way to tutor for knight.

Knight over tarm - this is a knight centric deck. Knight is a one card strip lock. This makes it better than life from the loam + strip or crucible + strip in a deck with little card draw and no tutors. This is NOT a beat down deck. The goal is to play hate bears and pressure until you land a knight and lock them out of the game.

Re: STP -

I agree with you on the life gain is not a "time walk." Though I do find his point about opponents cracking their fetch lands early for all their basic lands anyways, as being a very interesting point. I may have to start exploring paths more.

Re: Shaman

In my experience with this logic, it doesn't work. Consider this, given your analysis, wouldn't it just be better to have a 2nd Kataki and a knight? Sure, you can't discard your Kataki for value, but so what? You are better off than if you discarded, it for a knight. Even if you had 2 katakis and 2 knights, wouldn't that be better than if one of them was a Shaman?

[Guli]

Card choices (at the end a list)

Tarmogoyf should definitely be in the deck because if everything else dies, he is that 1 card that they usually can't kill. This makes it hard to outplay a GW beatdown deck by killing all the utility bears and then just proceed. Tarmogoyf cut's of the opponent from a comfortable long game plan.

The 7 slots that Thalia and Canonist occupy is to quickly get in there to stop an early storm kill. I think this is necessary and effective. You want to draw at least ONE of these dudes in the first 2 turns.

Xantid Swarm and Mother of Runes are 1 drops that protect your threats against removal and counter magic.

Stony Silence and Swords to Plowshares are there to cut off Time Vault and Tinker. These cards do this without any doubt.

Obviously the cards I mentioned so far do serve other roles (secondary) but I would like to communicate the main function of the cards.

Scryb Ranger is in here to prevent Trygon connection, to make Mother of Runes work double duty, to give your creatures vigilance, to generate mana when have no land drop (hence allowing you to play with less lands), to protect your lands versus strip effects and to surprise block/kill by flashing in and untapping a Thalia or Goyf. Mother of Runes protects but also makes your creatures unblockable. Alongside the ranger MOR give your dudes a huge combat advantage. Mother of Runes is also important to cut combo players off from the 'bounce, go off' plan.

Noble Hierarch is added alongside Qasali Pridemage. These cards are solid in many match ups. It is good to have exalted around when playing flying stuff.

The SB is also versatile. Treetop is tech versus land still. You can bring in Gaddock versus Gush decks and even Dredge alongside the cages/crypts. You can bring in the Lego's for Canonist against Workshop decks and Treetops for Xantid Swarms.

It is not a list that has seen much play, but I think it has the means to fight play around control with Swarms and keep itself alive against storm kills long enough to shut them off. It has only 4 maindeck answers versus Tinker but those can be protected by your creatures and will nail that Tinker bot for sure. The deck has answers versus strip effects and has 3 basics. I don't think the Workshop match will cause many problems. Just make sure you play out the relevant cards like Noble, Qasali, Tarms and keep them in check with wastelands, stp and ranger. Against other beatdown or fish I think your Ranger/Mor and many bears with abilities will give you a good game. Dredge is hated out in G2 and G3. Looks solid to me.

GW Beats 2012

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
4 Savannah
1 Strip Mine
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Ethersworn Canonist

4 Scryb Ranger
4 Mother of Runes
4 Xantid Swarm

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch

4 Stony Silence
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 4 Treetop Village
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Porcelain Legionnaire

[xouman]

I like decks with 4'ofs, because of the stability. However, playing 4 Thalias could be troublesome lots of times, 4 scryb rangers would be crap most of the time (and trygon is not the worst thing you will face), and 4 xantid swarm are dead against lots of matches, and not better than abolisher most of the time. Abolisher, kataki and aven deserve a place here, and probably selkie worths a try.

[Guli]

I like decks with 4'ofs, because of the stability. However, playing 4 Thalias could be troublesome lots of times, 4 scryb rangers would be crap most of the time (and trygon is not the worst thing you will face), and 4 xantid swarm are dead against lots of matches, and not better than abolisher most of the time. Abolisher, kataki and aven deserve a place here, and probably selkie worths a try.

I drew 3 Xantid Swarm yesterday and none of them got through against land still. And besides Xantid is never dead with Exalted. Maybe some equip would be nice.

Seeing two Rangers is good, the ability is cumulative. Pro blue matters and so does the flying. Again maybe some equip would be good.

I also want to add one more card to the deck, something that has a tap ability or a landfall ability. Or something that fits in basically. Then there will be some shaving. For now, I wanted to see how things work out with the current creatures.

Here are some tappers

Devout Witness
Glissa Sunseeker
Intrepid Hero
Knight of the Reliquary
Mangara of Corondor
Mikaeus, the Lunarch
Mul Daya Channelers
Order of the Sacred Torch (SB tech?)
Pulsemage Advocate
Rosheen Meanderer
Spurnmage Advocate

[credmond]

GW Beats 2012

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
4 Savannah
1 Strip Mine
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Ethersworn Canonist

4 Scryb Ranger
4 Mother of Runes
4 Xantid Swarm

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch

4 Stony Silence
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 4 Treetop Village
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Porcelain Legionnaire

I would change your 4 Treetop Village to 4 Ghost Quarter. Ghost Quarter means the Landstill matchup will hinge entirely around whether or not the Landstill player can land and keep Crucible. LOA can be answered quickly and manlands behind a standstill will no longer be as easy an option. Ghost Quarter, in addition to being very solid against Landstill, is also solid against Dredge and Shops. As is, your deck looks a bit soft to Dredge. Going 3 Ghost Quarter and a couple of surgical extractions can work too (and surgical extract is really good against Landstill.)

[Guli]

I can see something like -1 Thalia and -1 Xantid for +1 Glissa and +1Mikaus work nicely. I would not change the protection/untap squad.

Treetop is very nice versus landstill, you can hit crucible with pridemage.

EDIT:

Once you make your opponent play the legacy, Scryb Ranger and Mikaeus are unstopable.

I advise all GW players to at least try out Scryb Ranger. Generates a lot of mana with low land count and noble's. This is very important against spheres and wasteland decks. Ranger looks soft on paper but it utterly is a house. It was nice to sink all that mana into Mikaeus to pump up all my guys. Mikaeus makes all the 'pesky' 0/1's into kird apes. This is imporant against Fire/Ice and Pyroclasm/Massacre.

It is also very pleasurable to play with. Seeing all your dudes grow and they can't do anything about it and you can do it every turn. I also think I will play more combo/control hate. All I have to do is survive the early game and after that I don't see how I can lose with all the protection, hosing, pumping and tactics.

Conclusion, full thalia, canonist and some teeg to bulster up the combo hate. No need for Tarmo because Mikaeus is taking over with brutality, hence more Mikaus. Mikaeus is never dead because you can let it die and recast the second and you have a fresh new Mikaeus full of counters. Ranger and Mother of Runes are watching over your dudes. The slots are worth it. I especially like Xantid Swarm. People think he does no damage. Well guess again, in this deck he beats thanks to exalted and +1+1 counters and utterly makes control strategies defenceless.


Here is the latest list with some important changes.

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Scryb Ranger
3 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
3 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Gaddock Teeg

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stony Silence
4 Mental Misstep

SB: 3 Treetop Village
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Serenity
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm

[Guli]

I have to say that during my testing I never tapped Mother of Runes (not even once!) to 'counter' a spot removal. It was Mikaeaus that impacted many match ups. Mikaeus + Ranger is way more aggressive and powerful than Mother of Runes + Ranger.

A lot of times Mother of Runes would have been good but it was a turn too late to protect. Mental Misstep is in the deck too so that offers some protection too.

I don't know if there were a lot of situations were my opponents kept their removal because of MOR. Didn't ask this either. But I doubt this was the case.


This leads me to the conclusion that Mother of Runes should go and something else should be looked into. She has been useful in some specific situations but overall not so good. So far Mikaeus has been amazing with or without ranger to offer clock and protection. Evasion and protection is also nice but getting +1+1 counters is also strong when on the offensive. Besides Ranger has evasion already. And the first strike of Thalia works nice with those counters. Also exalted offers some good offensive opportunities.

[A.-1.]

Guli, your most recent list seems to be very vulnerable to Chalice of the Void at two. It shuts off a large number of the threats and Stony Silence. If this has been a problem in your Shop testing, you should consider Leyline of Lifeforce maindeck.

I agree that MoR should probably be cut. If you're looking for a similar ability, Dauntless Escort is a good on-color option.

[ModflyDesign]

I love A1.  (TPG LOVE)

Also he is 100% correct.  In any given Vintage event, a chalice at 2 basically ruins your day.  And more likely than not you are going to see that happen.

[bax]

Also he is 100% correct.  In any given Vintage event, a chalice at 2 basically ruins your day.  And more likely than not you are going to see that happen.

This is (one of) the (many) reasons why this deck should run Vexing Shusher in the sideboard.

[Guli]

Guli, your most recent list seems to be very vulnerable to Chalice of the Void at two. It shuts off a large number of the threats and Stony Silence. If this has been a problem in your Shop testing, you should consider Leyline of Lifeforce maindeck.

I agree that MoR should probably be cut. If you're looking for a similar ability, Dauntless Escort is a good on-color option.

I think MOR and Mikaeus compete for slots and Mika won it in my eyes.

Ok, last night, with the help of Storm, I believe to have polished the list further.

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Gaddock Teeg

4 Scryb Ranger
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mikaeus, the Lunarch

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
4 Stony Silence

SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll

[A.-1.]

That is an awful lot of Legendary Creatures. Thrun is cute option versus blue decks, but have you really fallen out of love with Xantid Swarm that much to cut it completely?

[boggyb]

I'm pretty sure Shusher is better in every way. He does the same thing, but better (protects spells you cast nonactively), can't be countered, and fights through and trumps chalice. The version I'm testing now runs 3 maindeck.

Wonder if you guys could expand a bit on the place of Mikaeus-- only thing I ever get out of him is maybe a 1 or 2 turn quicker clock, at best. Since he doesn't disrupt or help you recover from disruption, I'm thinking shusher is better maindeck (3x shusher, 1x mikaeus vs. 4x mikaeus). Thoughts?

[Blue Lotus]

Re: Shaman

In my experience with this logic, it doesn't work. Consider this, given your analysis, wouldn't it just be better to have a 2nd Kataki and a knight? Sure, you can't discard your Kataki for value, but so what? You are better off than if you discarded, it for a knight. Even if you had 2 katakis and 2 knights, wouldn't that be better than if one of them was a Shaman?

No, it wouldn't. Top decking a legend when you already have one out is bad. At least shaman adds power to the board, even if you don't plan on activating it anytime soon.

Basically you never want to draw a second kataki. This is a problem because you also want to draw your first as soon as possible.

On paper fauna shaman is the worst card in your deck. But when you play, if you have a legend out, that legend is the worst card in your deck to draw. Shaman helps mitigate this. I'm not claiming that this is the green confidant or anything, but it is a form of card advantage. An alternative would be cold-eye selkie or the coldsnap phidian. Or my favorite card ever, hystrodon.

I prefer shaman to those three b/c its a turn faster and, more importantly, don't have to connect in order to get an effect. I would gladly pay 1 mana a turn instead of having selkie blanked by a big ugly lodestone golem.

[A.-1.]

Blue Lotus, the Coldsnap card you're thinking of is Ohran Viper. I agree with your points on Shaman.

Guli, with this latest build of yours that is packed full Legends, you might want to give Fauna Shaman another look see. I feel like this deck really wants to abuse Green Sun's Zenith, but with Gaddock Teeg, it is not a reliable tutor. Waiting for the Legend in play to die while you have another copy in hand isn't always an option.

[Guli]

I am having similar thought streams guys. But I don't know that Fauna is a solution. And I agree that it would be CA because the cards you play are generating a lot value. Getting a Gaddock into play thanks to Fauna Shaman means generating virtual CA. I suggested Fauna Shaman in that list were I was looking for interesting tappers with Ranger tricks. Fauna and Ranger are amazing together. I didn't test it but IF it would work I can tell you it would be amazing. I am just not sure about the speed of it and if we can afford such a slowish engine. But those were my initial thoughts on Mikaeus as well but as it turns out it obliterates the board on the opposing side with Ranger when there isn't something huge going on like an impending storm kill or a TV/Key lurking around the corner.

@Blue Lotus
I am now really good at utilizing the ranger/mikaeus tricks. But when I look back, I was really not aware of the best way to use them. The more I played with them, the better I became. It is not something you learn on paper. You also have to learn how to use Scryb without Mika and Mika without Ranger. It is not THAT evident as you think. I suggest you try them out on various match ups and enough games. I think I started a week ago and I have like builded 50 games experience with them. Why do you think I keep them in main deck?

@ A.-1.
You convinced me to fool around with Fauna Shaman. I ll try to reconnect here and tell how it went

[ModflyDesign]

I feel like a deck with this many legends could possibly use Survival of the Fittest.  Just a thought. You don't have to wait a turn to use it like Fauna Shaman.  It works better with Teeg than GSZ does.  Gets you whatever you need instead of sitting on that 2nd legend copy.  I also feel like 4 Thrun is too many in this list. 

[Guli]

I feel like a deck with this many legends could possibly use Survival of the Fittest.  Just a thought. You don't have to wait a turn to use it like Fauna Shaman.  It works better with Teeg than GSZ does.  Gets you whatever you need instead of sitting on that 2nd legend copy.  I also feel like 4 Thrun is too many in this list.  

It is 4 post board versus Land still. It just wrecks them so hard with Stable Stag. At that moment you hardly care of you have a dead card in hand. Just make sure they don't get an active crucible, and that is why Ooze,Pridemage and Claim are around. Click link in my profile information for most up to date version.