How can control beat fish?

[Daenyth]

I want a deck with no weakness

There is no such deck. If such a deck were to exist for any amount of time, it would prompt a banning. There has never in the history of the game been a deck with "no weakness"

[Diakonov]

I had a hand of 4 drains even one game.  I drained his gaddock, drew my 4th drain, he played null rod, I had to counter to keep my sapphire on, then played qasali.  I played a land and memory jar.  He cast null rod again, then edric and drew.  I drew DT and had no black.  He plays jace, I drain, he swings with 2 and draws 2.  I draw yawg will...no black.  He plays another qasali, I counter...he drops another jace.  He proceeds to give me the bad draws and bury the good draws while he swings for 4 and draws 3 cards a turn.

Here's a good example.  You should not have played Memory Jar when you did, because then you couldn't counter his Rod.  Just wait until you have more mana.  Also, hopefully it is rare that you didn't have any black mana to cast spells.  If that's common, you need to rework your mana base (note: strip mine is garbage in this list).  Otherwise, that was a potentially winnable game from the sound of it.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I obviously PREFER Dianokov's response, though it doesn't make it the best, and he's probably right that I can beat fish, but just don't.  I think that flashback pyroclasm is something to look at.  The EtW was a nice suggestion too.  That's the type of advice I'm looking for.  How to beat fish with my deck and maybe a couple tweaks.  Not an "abandon your deck, pick up this netdeck" answer.

The cards that make my deck good vs shops/gush also make my deck good vs painter.  Painter doesn't do well vs welders, shamans, and grudges.  Even when they drop painter, my Reb now kills their painters!  I have a ton of artifact hate in the board too, plus 2 more rebs/pyro.  I've been able to beat shops that go the aggro route and the prison route.  Obviously, the prison route is easier to beat since my remoras are gold vs them, but g2/3 I have 3 grudges, 3 welder, 1 shaman, 1 hurkyll's and 3 claims anyway....that's quite a lot vs that match.

Against dredge, unless I play a fast vault/key or tinker, I lose g1....so does every deck.  I at least have strip mine to buy time too.  But g 2/3, I have 4 leyline, 2 jailer, and strip mine and 8 counters....which gives me a considerable advantage.  I usually can take g2/3 vs dredge most of the time.

Saying you "doubt" what my deck can do is different from saying you've tested it, as I have many many many times, and saying that you conclude it can't beat those other decks.  If you run the deck and get repeatedly squashed by everything, then go ahead and tell me that.  Don't just look at the list and say "That's a pile, it sucks, play this UB snapcaster deck instead."  I will concede that the deck does need more draw/dig...which is why I said I'd want to find a spot for sensei and probably wheel and maybe thirst.  But what to cut is the problem.  Welder #3 seems the easiest card to cut, but then the extra artifact or two graveyard fillers seem to make me want welder.  Do I have welders and lack the cards to abuse it, or add the draw/filter cards at the expense of welder spots.  And even with wheel/thirst, I don't have several pitchable artifacts I want to weld in...Only jar.

I do think my deck has some strengths and it is resilient.  It's biggest strengths are vs the two biggest archetypes - shops and drains.  I don't see that as a bad thing.  Just because it loses to fish doesn't mean it is "bad."  Also, the things that you point out about making it a "bad" fish deck is what is making it good vs me.  He doesn't have a ton of instants and counters, so my remoras are dead...he's ALL creatures with a couple broken spells.  Rather than removal spells, he plays removal creatures.  Also, I have 3 basic lands and 3 fetches, so wastes don't hurt me much.  He doesn't run wastes, and instead has MORE disruptive creatures. Wastes actually hurt more in shops, where they have tangle and spheres to combo with the wastes.  My deck  can totally run off 2 islands and a mountain, getting the extra 4th mana off the wasteable land drop or drain mana.  He has no FoW parity, so he can max out on gaddock teegs without losing anything, while teeg consequently hits several of my bombs as well. His deck is actually much better suited to beat my deck than most fish BECAUSE of what cards he chose to replace with additional creatures. I CAN play around wasteland and win the counter war.  I CAN'T (at least yet) beat 4 relic warders, 4 pridemages, 4 trygons, and 4 teegs and 3 Edrics -- This is why I said I have much less trouble vs regular noble fish.  I'm sure you "doubt" this, but test and you'll see.

@ Dianakov, yes i actually made bad plays in that match in retrospect.  I actually dropped jar into his pridemage and tapped out.  That was bad.  i think frustration was taking over at that point.

Several seem to say that there is no "perfect" deck with no weaknesses.  This may be true.  There are some decks with no "bad" matchups...that go 50/50 with some decks and have some favorable matchups too.  I'm not expecting to find a deck that blows out every other matchup, but I'm trying to find something that is better than 50% and has a "good" matchup vs everything (except the mirror obviously).  This may also not exist, but that's the goal at least.

[bluemage55]

I will concede that the deck does need more draw/dig...which is why I said I'd want to find a spot for sensei and probably wheel and maybe thirst.  But what to cut is the problem.  Welder #3 seems the easiest card to cut, but then the extra artifact or two graveyard fillers seem to make me want welder.  Do I have welders and lack the cards to abuse it, or add the draw/filter cards at the expense of welder spots.  And even with wheel/thirst, I don't have several pitchable artifacts I want to weld in...Only jar.

You're not making anywhere near optimal use of welder, due to only having Jar and Key/Vault pieces as weldable targets ; welder is mostly sitting in there as shop hate, which is why I recommend abandoning it entirely and focusing on the Drain/Remora aspect of the deck.  If you want to go with a Welder/Draw 7 route, a la Steel City Vault, then you're going to want at least another useful artifact for Welder (SDT barely counts, but at least you can get some free card draws with it), and TfK for certain.  Either way, a third welder is still excessive.

I do think my deck has some strengths and it is resilient.  It's biggest strengths are vs the two biggest archetypes - shops and drains.  I don't see that as a bad thing.  Just because it loses to fish doesn't mean it is "bad."

Your deck isn’t bad because it loses to fish.  Your deck is bad because it’s only engine is Remora, which is like relying on Compost for card-drawing in a black-heavy meta.  Your deck is bad because it’s built around Drains and Remora, which synergize poorly.  Your deck is bad because it’s playing 3 Welders with little to no weldable targets, very little graveyard filling (not even TfK, an auto-include in any deck that runs blue and welder).

Also, the things that you point out about making it a "bad" fish deck is what is making it good vs me.  He doesn't have a ton of instants and counters, so my remoras are dead...he's ALL creatures with a couple broken spells.  Rather than removal spells, he plays removal creatures. 

Did you even read my posts?  The only reason I’ve given so far for why his aggro deck is bad is that it fails to run Wasteland… which is actually a huge failing.

Also, I have 3 basic lands and 3 fetches, so wastes don't hurt me much.

That’s terribad.  I have no idea why you think this is anywhere near adequate, when a typical modern blue control deck runs closer to 6 fetches and 3 basics.

My deck  can totally run off 2 islands and a mountain, getting the extra 4th mana off the wasteable land drop or drain mana. 

Lolwut?  You have 3 fetches and 3 basics, no drawing engine, and virtually no cheap cantrips… and you think you’ll get out all 3 basics in a typical game?

Do you seriously not understand why running a mana base with City of Brass actually makes you extra vulnerable to Wastes?

[TheWhiteDragon]

That’s terribad.  I have no idea why you think this is anywhere near adequate, when a typical modern blue control deck runs closer to 6 fetches and 3 basics.

Legitimate point.  I cut 2 cities and add 1 delta, 1 strand.  I still have similar access to all 3 colors (green is really just for grudge flashback and claims postboard).  5 fetches, 3 basics...that was actually constructive.

Either way, a third welder is still excessive.

Probably true.  As I said, the 3rd welder was probably the easiest to cut.  I think sensei top, with the extra fetches especially, is optimal in this spot.

If you want to go with a Welder/Draw 7 route, a la Steel City Vault, then you're going to want at least another useful artifact for Welder (SDT barely counts, but at least you can get some free card draws with it), and TfK for certain.

I'm not sold on TFK, though it can be good.  I certainly don't think a clunky artifact is what my deck really wants.  I am considering Inkwell leviathan though.  It's U to pitch to force, has shroud to smash fish's removal, has islandwalk vs blue, is weldable in, but not weldable out, and is the extra robot to pitch.  I can also cast it with a nice drain and just blue mana.  A solid option...but what do i cut to add those 3 cards?

@bluemage55, THAT is the type of criticism I'm asking for and am glad you decided to give it.  The "scrap your shitty list and pick up this UB bob/snapcaster deck" was not what I was looking for.  I wanted tweaks to my list, not a totally new deck and direction.  Glad you are on board now.

[bluemage55]

Legitimate point.  I cut 2 cities and add 1 delta, 1 strand.  I still have similar access to all 3 colors (green is really just for grudge flashback and claims postboard).  5 fetches, 3 basics...that was actually constructive.

Consider switching over to fetches/duals/basics entirely.  When you only need a little bit of green you don't really need City of Brass.  An extra dual and fetch would be beter.

I'm not sold on TFK, though it can be good.

It’s a solid card drawing spell for any Drain deck running enough artifacts; put that with Welder and you’ll get some idea of why it was restricted.  Another thing to keep in mind is that it also puts BSC back into your library, which you don’t have enough ways to do as it is (Smmenen went with 2 copies of Clique at Worlds partly to have 3 ways to put back BSC, despite having two SDTs to avoid it).

I am considering Inkwell leviathan though.  It's U to pitch to force, has shroud to smash fish's removal, has islandwalk vs blue, is weldable in, but not weldable out, and is the extra robot to pitch.  I can also cast it with a nice drain and just blue mana.

I agree.

A solid option...but what do i cut to add those 3 cards?

Gorilla Shaman (it's slow, clunky when you’re feeding remora, and overkill with maindeck Grudge + 2x Welder), Remora #4 (4 is excessive for a card that you rarely want an extra copy of), and REB (you’re already fine against blue when you’re already running 3x maindeck Remoras).

[TheWhiteDragon]

Consider switching over to fetches/duals/basics entirely.  When you only need a little bit of green you don't really need City of Brass.  An extra dual and fetch would be beter.

I did consider this, but especially after sb I need more green with claims and extra grudges, or more black, with jailer, leyline (even though i play them for free, they sometimes get bounced), tutors to find said hate, and to a minor degree, nihil spellbomb.  If I add one extra fetch, do i add one extra tropical or sea?  That cuts me to much less on one of those colors.  The fact that when NOT wastelanded, city gives me all 4 colors and doesn't thin my land count, city certainly has merit.  I may reconsider this later, but 5 fetch and 3 basic seem fairly solid (as you pointed out) with a pair of lands that hit the whole color pie.

It’s a solid card drawing spell for any Drain deck running enough artifacts; put that with Welder and you’ll get some idea of why it was restricted.  Another thing to keep in mind is that it also puts BSC back into your library, which you don’t have enough ways to do as it is (Smmenen went with 2 copies of Clique at Worlds partly to have 3 ways to put back BSC, despite having two SDTs to avoid it).

I will agree on this point.  The fact that it is instant and blue probably gives it the nod over wheel, though wheel can be absurd.  If I find the slot for this and inkwell (and fof interacts nicely with inkwell too), I'd probably try thirst over wheel the more I think about it.

Gorilla Shaman (it's slow, clunky when you’re feeding remora, and overkill with maindeck Grudge + 2x Welder), Remora #4 (4 is excessive for a card that you rarely want an extra copy of), and REB (you’re already fine against blue when you’re already running 3x maindeck Remoras).

These, i'm not sure of.

Shaman has been VERY good to me.  When remora is out, I'm not really using him, sure, but his ability to eat moxen, voltaic key, skullclamp, chalice, etc is REALLY nice.  Chalice can stop me from tinkering and shut off mana development bigtime.  1R solves this problem and is repeatedly good.  Also, chalice @ 2 hurts.  It shuts of vault, DT, drains, hurkylls, grudge.  If shop opens with shop, mox, chalice @ 0, chalice @ 2 - a common play that wrecks MANY decks - I have only this 1 fast answer. If they have nothing in the dirt, welder can't answer.  I have plays around it, but defensively, he's awesome.  He also is insane with welder.  Shaman and welder can reduce a shop deck to nothing but lands in a heartbeat.  It really shines against tangle wire by removing asymetry (and all shop decks use tangle).  He may be the right card to cut, but he's very nice to have.

REB has been very good in every matchup.  Vs Dredge, it's not great g1, but can kill lab maniac and g2 stops chain of vapor.  Also stops ancestral/breakthrough if they run them.  Vs Fish, it's great.  It kills jace, tinker, edric, trygon, counters, image, meddling mage and more.  Vs blue.dec, well...it counters/kills everything.  It allows me to kill a jace, then play my own as opposed to sacrificing my own jace to kill theirs.  Vs shops, it kills/stops metamorph from copying my welder/BSC which seems to be in all shop decks now.  It's 1 mana, making it play very nicely with remora if I'm tapping out, drop a land.  It is nice with gifts too to set up a fow/drain/reb/X pile when I MUST counter something and have the mana.  The singleton reb I even often tutor for as a one mana vindicate or just to protect tinker when I have 4 mana and no time to wait.  3 and 4 rebs were too much...2 was actually really nice, but I already had to trim.  1 is just too valuable to cut I think.

Remora - I disagree with this most.  While remora has utility later, it is BEST on turn 1.  Just like chalice @0 can be useful, but is BEST on turn 1, so is remora.  A turn 1 remora usually results in my opponent dropiing their jewlery and going for broke right into it OR they play land, pass and allow me to build up a considerable mana base with drains and broken before I decide to let it die...sometimes dropping a second one and THEN letting the old one die.  If I happen to have a lot of mana (mox, mox, sol ring, tolarian for example), I can sometimes even drop 2 and then my opponent definitely doesn't play anything for a few turns.  Also, cutting a draw spell for another draw spell (and thus weakening the whole remora engine by not running 4) seems counterintuitive.

My thoughts were cutting tezz.  He's awesome, but expensive, bad vs critters, and often dead in hand for a while.  If I play him and can protect him, or have a lotus, mox, land, tezz, fow, U card hand (which happens), it's gg.  He's a win condition, bomb, tutor....but big and slow.  On the fence about this.  I also considered cutting gifts.  It can also be a bomb, but is best with welder.  If I'm cutting a welder, it gets less good.  Also a draw 3, pitch a card for 3 might be as good as a tutor 2 that my opponent chooses.  One needs more set up, one is useable at any time.

So, -1 tezz, -1 gifts, -1 welder, +1 SDT, +1 thirst, +1 inkwell???  It's worth a try, and thirst/inky might be as broken as tezz->vault.  Depends on the deck i face, but i think anything with null rod and artifact removal, I may benefit with the switch.  I'd like to hear the community's thoughts on this.

@Bluemage55 - THANK YOU for really speaking to what i was asking for now.  You have valuable comments and thoughts.  I just wanted you to focus them more on improving my deck, like you are doing now, and less on talking me into just picking up a completely different list.  THIS is very constructive and helpful.

[TheWhiteDragon]

In the latest set there is a flashback pyroclasm...

Do you mean Rolling Temblor?  I don't know about this.  It costs 3, not 2, and doesn't hit mindcensor or fairies (minor, but bitterblossoms and such are sometimes played)  The biggest thing is costing 3 as opposed to 2.  The flashback might be worth it.  I'll test it.  I thought it was 1R with 4RR flashback - you know how WotC likes to print strictly superior spells every once in a while.

[bluemage55]

I did consider this, but especially after sb I need more green with claims and extra grudges, or more black, with jailer, leyline (even though i play them for free, they sometimes get bounced), tutors to find said hate, and to a minor degree, nihil spellbomb.  If I add one extra fetch, do i add one extra tropical or sea?  That cuts me to much less on one of those colors.  The fact that when NOT wastelanded, city gives me all 4 colors and doesn't thin my land count, city certainly has merit.  I may reconsider this later, but 5 fetch and 3 basic seem fairly solid (as you pointed out) with a pair of lands that hit the whole color pie.

Fair enough.  I do recommend you test out various post-sb configurations with George Baxter analysis, and consider whether the dip into green mostly for sb options is worth it.

Shaman has been VERY good to me.  When remora is out, I'm not really using him, sure, but his ability to eat moxen, voltaic key, skullclamp, chalice, etc is REALLY nice.

It’s nice, but generally doesn’t do enough against most decks in a Drain deck unless it’s part of a potential mana denial plan with Strip/Wastes, such as in a more traditional Keeperish shell.

Chalice can stop me from tinkering and shut off mana development bigtime. 1R solves this problem and is repeatedly good. 

Chalice @ 0 is generally not a major threat if you’re on the play, and if you’re on the draw, then that means you’re going to have to wait until at least turn 2 in order to blow up Chalice, and that’s if you’re lucky enough to find Shaman .  Problem is, decks that run Chalice tend to put you on a sharp clock and/or have answers if you can’t blow it up right away, and in those situations you won’t have time to tutor for it, cast it, and blow up the Chalice before your fate is sealed, especially given that you can’t use most of your mana acceleration.

So overall, to both need and use Shaman against Chalice requires that you be on the draw, and to survive long enough to get ahold of the singleton, cast it, and blow up Chalice.   Shaman has quite some value as a silver bullet, but answering Chalice @ 0 is far from where it shines.

Also, chalice @ 2 hurts.  It shuts of vault, DT, drains, hurkylls, grudge.  If shop opens with shop, mox, chalice @ 0, chalice @ 2 - a common play that wrecks MANY decks - I have only this 1 fast answer. If they have nothing in the dirt, welder can't answer. 

This is a far more important Chalice to answer.  However, Chalice @ 2 typically requires more investment and comes later, meaning it’s easier to counter.  Welder does generally tend to answer it in practice, as this happens if you’ve simply countered/Grudged a single artifact, or if they’ve had to sacrifice one.  Also consider running Chain of Vapor in your maindeck instead of Hurkyl’s to have another out vs. Chalice @ 2.

He also is insane with welder.  Shaman and welder can reduce a shop deck to nothing but lands in a heartbeat.  It really shines against tangle wire by removing asymetry (and all shop decks use tangle).

Yes, Shaman+Welder is an incredible beast that I’ve often enjoyed using against Shops in the past.  The problem is that this is frequently win more, as the ability to find and resolve this combo generally means you’ve won anyway, either before or after just the welder.  It’s also noticeably less effective now that Phyrexian Revoker has been introduced.

He may be the right card to cut, but he's very nice to have.

For the most part, I do agree with you that Shaman is very nice.  However, I don’t feel that it’s quite justified against a general field unless you also have Strip/Wastes to ensure that it will be relevant.

REB has been very good in every matchup.  Vs Dredge, it's not great g1, but can kill lab maniac and g2 stops chain of vapor.  Also stops ancestral/breakthrough if they run them.  Vs Fish, it's great.  It kills jace, tinker, edric, trygon, counters, image, meddling mage and more.  Vs blue.dec, well...it counters/kills everything.  It allows me to kill a jace, then play my own as opposed to sacrificing my own jace to kill theirs.  Vs shops, it kills/stops metamorph from copying my welder/BSC which seems to be in all shop decks now.  It's 1 mana, making it play very nicely with remora if I'm tapping out, drop a land.  It is nice with gifts too to set up a fow/drain/reb/X pile when I MUST counter something and have the mana.  The singleton reb I even often tutor for as a one mana vindicate or just to protect tinker when I have 4 mana and no time to wait.  3 and 4 rebs were too much...2 was actually really nice, but I already had to trim.  1 is just too valuable to cut I think.

The question you need to ask yourself is how often it’s dead.  If you’re facing a lot of control then its inclusion is forgivable, but it’ll often be dead vs. Shop, Dredge, and some types of Fish even if occasionally finds a target.

Remora - I disagree with this most.  While remora has utility later, it is BEST on turn 1.  Just like chalice @0 can be useful, but is BEST on turn 1, so is remora.

The reason people run Chalice is not that it’s best on turn 1, but because it’s overwhelmingly better on turn 1 than later.  That’s also why Chalices tend to be sided out on the draw.

However, Remora is still quite effective when you drop it on turn 2, at least against the decks it actually hoses.  In fact, it’s actually scarier if they don’t already have a bunch of mana up, because now you can expect to both pay Remora and have mana up for other spells.

A turn 1 remora usually results in my opponent dropiing their jewlery and going for broke right into it OR they play land, pass and allow me to build up a considerable mana base with drains and broken before I decide to let it die...sometimes dropping a second one and THEN letting the old one die. 

Are most of your opponents MWS scrubs?  Solid control players will take the time to sculpt their hand until you either can’t pay for remora or they’re ready to blow you away.  Because you’re not playing Misstep, Misdirection, and Commandeer, you’re also not in the best position to fight a sculpted hand when they do go for broke, considering that you will frequently have a lot of tapped mana when they do so.

If I happen to have a lot of mana (mox, mox, sol ring, tolarian for example), I can sometimes even drop 2 and then my opponent definitely doesn't play anything for a few turns.

That’s usually going to be either win more or not the best play, depending on just how much mana you have.  In most cases it will be better to commit less mana to a single remora and be able to cast other spells.

Also, cutting a draw spell for another draw spell (and thus weakening the whole remora engine by not running 4) seems counterintuitive.

Unless your deck is built around it (e.g. with Meditate, Commandeer, Old Man of the Sea to survive creature decks, etc.), Remora is a hoser that acts as a draw spell (such as how REB is a hoser that acts as a counter/removal), not a complete engine.  Would you remove REB to put in a general purpose counter like FoW, Drain, or Misstep?  Sometimes, yes, and it’s not at all counterintuitive to replace a strong but inflexible hoser with a more general card.

If you do run Remora x4/Meditate x4/Old Man of the Sea x4/Commandeer x3, then it becomes imperative to maintain the complete engine, but that’s not the case here.

My thoughts were cutting tezz.  He's awesome, but expensive, bad vs critters, and often dead in hand for a while.  If I play him and can protect him, or have a lotus, mox, land, tezz, fow, U card hand (which happens), it's gg.  He's a win condition, bomb, tutor....but big and slow.  On the fence about this.  I also considered cutting gifts.  It can also be a bomb, but is best with welder.  If I'm cutting a welder, it gets less good.  Also a draw 3, pitch a card for 3 might be as good as a tutor 2 that my opponent chooses.  One needs more set up, one is useable at any time.

Tezz is awesome, but he’s definitely a card that you can cut if push comes to shove.  I would be hesitant to do so with your deck because you could use more win conditions as it is.  With your proposed changes you would have two robots, Jace, two Welders, and Shaman.  This basically means that a Jester’s Cap for the Robots plus Jace gives you no reasonable way to win except Vault/Key and Welder/Shaman beats.  Similar problems occur if you run into a little bit too much removal/discard/counters and lose Will.

@Bluemage55 - THANK YOU for really speaking to what i was asking for now.  You have valuable comments and thoughts.  I just wanted you to focus them more on improving my deck, like you are doing now, and less on talking me into just picking up a completely different list.  THIS is very constructive and helpful.

You’re welcome.  I still think your choice to play a weird metagamed hybrid rather than fully committing to a SCV-style or Shaymora deck is questionable, but this should get you a little more mileage out of a deck that could possibly work in the right meta.

[TheWhiteDragon]

The question you need to ask yourself is how often it’s dead.  If you’re facing a lot of control then its inclusion is forgivable, but it’ll often be dead vs. Shop, Dredge, and some types of Fish even if occasionally finds a target.

Reb is not nearly as dead as you'ld think.  I thought it'd only be good vs blue control at first, but eventually it hurt even to cut to 1 from 2 when it hit so many fish targets, obviously was awesome vs blue, and workshops ran metamorphs like crazy.  It was most dead vs dredge, by my DECK, like any control deck, is dead vs dredge g1.  In practice, it really only turns out to be dead vs dredge.  Against shops, I only have 1, so I rarely draw it...but even if I do, and can't shuffle it away, it comes out nicely to kill the metamorphs.  It has more utility than you'ld actually think at first glance.

Remora - I disagree with this most.  While remora has utility later, it is BEST on turn 1.  Just like chalice @0 can be useful, but is BEST on turn 1, so is remora.

The reason people run Chalice is not that it’s best on turn 1, but because it’s overwhelmingly better on turn 1 than later.  That’s also why Chalices tend to be sided out on the draw.

However, Remora is still quite effective when you drop it on turn 2, at least against the decks it actually hoses.  In fact, it’s actually scarier if they don’t already have a bunch of mana up, because now you can expect to both pay Remora and have mana up for other spells.

I don't get this.  I think you may have worded it wrong.  It is effective at any point, but most effective turn 1 before they play their acceleration.  When they have just a couple lands, but I manage to have a couple lands, sol ring, mana crypt and have paid a few turns for remora, that means on my turn when i have 7 mana after my land drop and allow my remora to die, I can do sick things with protection, where my opponent only has the mana to cast a single drain.  What if I tinker with drain backup and he's holding double drain, but has his lotus in hand and only 3 lands out?  This is the advantage to a turn 1 remora that I can't get as often with only 3 remoras.

A turn 1 remora usually results in my opponent dropiing their jewlery and going for broke right into it OR they play land, pass and allow me to build up a considerable mana base with drains and broken before I decide to let it die...sometimes dropping a second one and THEN letting the old one die. 

Are most of your opponents MWS scrubs?  Solid control players will take the time to sculpt their hand until you either can’t pay for remora or they’re ready to blow you away.  Because you’re not playing Misstep, Misdirection, and Commandeer, you’re also not in the best position to fight a sculpted hand when they do go for broke, considering that you will frequently have a lot of tapped mana when they do so.

I don't know about this.  I'll keep an eye on it, but this really doesn't play out this way.  If I cast it before they develop mana, then their jewelry draws me cards.  MOST of the time, they are going to draw, land, pass and try to sculp a hand....but I'm ALSO sculpting a hand at the same time...and dropping welder, playing ancestral, tutoring, sensei top (now), ponder, brainstorm, casting moxen to get ahead on mana, etc.  I have several 1 mana plays that I can do while sitting behind a remora...one of which is casting another remora to let the first die and having several mana untapped.  Also, unless my opponent is just drawing land after land, he gets to the point where he is discarding while I'm playing spells or he's dropping a mox or spell here or there and I'm netting cards.  In theroy, my opponent CAN sculpt a bomb hand while I draw crap and then just have to let my remora die and pass the turn....but in reality, when i do pass the turn, I have untapped mana and a sculpted hand myself, with board position.  Or I just sculpt my hand while he does the same, then let my remora die and play vault/key with FoW/drain/reb backup with my own sculpted hand.

I don't have the misD, misstep, commandeer to REALLY take advantage of remora or the meditates to compliment it...but remora is not by far bad on its own, and I DO have 9 counters along with welders to help me recoup what gets countered.

Tezz is awesome, but he’s definitely a card that you can cut if push comes to shove.  I would be hesitant to do so with your deck because you could use more win conditions as it is.  With your proposed changes you would have two robots, Jace, two Welders, and Shaman.  This basically means that a Jester’s Cap for the Robots plus Jace gives you no reasonable way to win except Vault/Key and Welder/Shaman beats.  Similar problems occur if you run into a little bit too much removal/discard/counters and lose Will.

I'm not too concerned on the win cons, because I'm adding an inkwell in his spot.  This gives me thirst -> welder/inky as a new line of winning.  I would have faced the same prob vs cap if they pulled jace/tezz/BSC...but really I am so not scared of Jcap.  Even if they DID get a jcap off and took inky, BSC, and jace, I could still play shaman and welder on a vault/key lock, eat their entire board and grudge away their critter defense and go to town.  Jcap hasn't scared me in years.  And gush decks with 2x jace and BSC as their only win seem to do fine with jcap in print.

I think Tezz is probably the best card to cut as he's actually one of the most vulnerable between bolt, creatures, null rod, sphere effects. I'm confident taking him out for inky.

The question now is what is the best card to clip for thirst.  The candidates are gifts and shaman...but I'm leaning toward gifts.  Wheel is also a consideration, but it really is anti-synergy with remora, resetting us both to a fresh 7, and usually gives my opponent a big advantage since they'll have the turn with mana up and I'll be -3 mana.  It's not good early either unless I have a bunch of free mana floating or off a drain.  Wheel has always been a gamble card and best in a 4-welder heavy artifact deck i feel.

[xouman]

If the real threat are those critters, aether flash is more reliable than pyroclasms :p Sure, 4 mana is quite heavy (specially under null rod) and Gaddock avoids playing it, but I played it 12 years ago and while being slow, it was cracking.

Nevertheless, I won't play it, as it has been said you cannot commit to every deck, and probably that fish is not a Tier 1 or 2 in your meta. Cards like balance, Spell Snare (not only good against fish, but against drains, oath, spheres, vault...), tabernacle, Razormane masticore, grim lavamancer... and why not play Vendillion as suggested? It's fair with remoras, great against control but very nice so against fish, acting as a beater or blocking any nasty creature with flash.

And I have a crazy idea: liquimetal coating. It destroy lands with shaman, makes grudge a powerful creature killer, and then with welder + shaman you can take any permanent from the field. It's a terrible card by itself, but has beautiful synergies in your deck.

[TheWhiteDragon]

If the real threat are those critters, aether flash is more reliable than pyroclasms :p Sure, 4 mana is quite heavy (specially under null rod) and Gaddock avoids playing it, but I played it 12 years ago and while being slow, it was cracking.

Nevertheless, I won't play it, as it has been said you cannot commit to every deck, and probably that fish is not a Tier 1 or 2 in your meta. Cards like balance, Spell Snare (not only good against fish, but against drains, oath, spheres, vault...), tabernacle, Razormane masticore, grim lavamancer... and why not play Vendillion as suggested? It's fair with remoras, great against control but very nice so against fish, acting as a beater or blocking any nasty creature with flash.

And I have a crazy idea: liquimetal coating. It destroy lands with shaman, makes grudge a powerful creature killer, and then with welder + shaman you can take any permanent from the field. It's a terrible card by itself, but has beautiful synergies in your deck.

Aether flash would really be terrible.  Not only would they not play into it and it gets stopped by gaddock as you suggested, but they can drop a pridemage and sac it to kill the flash with the 2 damage on the stack.  I'd be lucky to kill a single creature that way.  Clique is not great either.  He runs 22 creatures, so making one go away and having him draw 1 is really just trading 1 creature for another.  Anything clique blocks will kill it, so it's just a 1-for-1 there. I don't see how clique is better than reb or lightning bolt in that case.  As far as blockers, I actually thought of serendib efreet or something.  He's a 3/4 flyer, so he kills 3/3 exalted guys and blocks/kills trygon.  He sticks around for a long time for 3 mana, costing 1 life a turn instead of 3-4. 

Lavamancer is a thought, and someone else mentioned it.  He requires stuff in the grave and to sit out there for a turn.  May be useful, but as I pointed out, a pyroclasm hitting 2-3 creatures does what it takes lavamancer 3-4 turns to do and all in 1 shot.  Worth testing though.

Tabernacle doesn't work as he just pays the mana and keeps his 2-3 creatures.  Razormane is too easily removed with relic warder, quasali, targeted removal, trygon (if he plays trygon first) and requires 5 mana plus a card.  He has tricks with welder, but it's expensive and questionable.  Balance is white and peacekeeper would just be better if I go white.  Spell snare is nice, but does nothing when drawn after the critter is already out.  Liquimetal coating is terrible by itself.  It depends on other cards to combo with it and doesn't answer things like trygon, qasali, relic warder.

[Daenyth]

You probably already know this, but I figured I'd add it since the way your  post was written was unclear...

You can't kill a metamorph that's in play using REB, unless it copies a blue creature. You can only counter it on the stack.

[TheWhiteDragon]

You can't kill a metamorph that's in play using REB, unless it copies a blue creature. You can only counter it on the stack.

Yeah, I should have probably stated that, but figured it was assumed.  I never have them in during g2/3, and since I have 1 that usually just sits in my hand during that match, it is a cheap counter when that situation does show up.  Just trying to show how that the card isn't totally dead in shops since the printing of metamorph, though it isn't ideal still.  It's solid in most matches though and still useful in anything splashing blue.

[bluemage55]

Try Old Man of the Sea.  It forces him to sac his Pridemages, stops his Tinkerbot, steals Hierarch for mana, and slows his attacks to a crawl.  On top of that, he has limited answers to it, especially as edict requires specific timings to work.

[TheWhiteDragon]

OMotS may be pretty good.  How does it stop the tinkerbot though?  Just throwing blockers in front of it?

Obviously I'm going to want old men or pyroclasms, but probably not both...but maybe both.  If I have old man working, i don't need clasm.  If I don't have old man, then a 2 mana wrath of god isn't bad until i land the old guy.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Update.  Old man is AMAZING.  I'm running 2 and 1 pyroclasm.  It's nuts.  I also gave up on remora.  It's good, but fofs are also great.  Here's my latest list:


// Lands
    1  City of Brass
    1  Tropical Island
    2  Volcanic Island
    2  Island
    3  Scalding Tarn
    1  Mountain
    1  Underground Sea
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Flooded Strand

// Creatures
    2  Goblin Welder
    1  Blightsteel Colossus
    1  Gorilla Shaman (2)
    1  Inkwell Leviathan

// Spells
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Ancient Grudge
    1  Time Vault
    2  Voltaic Key
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Tinker
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Red Elemental Blast
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Mox Pearl
    4  Force of Will
    1  Memory Jar
    1  Ponder
    1 [BD] Brainstorm
    4  Mana Drain
    1  Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    3  Fact or Fiction
    1  Hurkyl's Recall
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Thirst for Knowledge
    1  Gifts Ungiven
    1  Mana Vault

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Ancient Grudge
SB: 1  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 2  Nature's Claim
SB: 1  Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1  Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1  Pyroblast
SB: 1  Pyroclasm
SB: 2  Old Man of the Sea

I cut a city for a mana vault and cut 4 remoras for a 2nd key and 3 fofs.  My draw/dig suite is now ponder, SDT (with 2 keys), 3 fof, gifts, ancestral, jace, brainstorm, jar, and thirst.  fofs are like extra thirsts in getting inky into the dirt.  2 welders give me lots of use, but don't clog my hand when I don't need them.  The deck is playing very well.  It may have dropped a step vs blue, but it's still very strong vs blue.  It has virtually the same game vs shops, oath, and dredge as it did before.  It's a bit faster in finding vault/key with 2 keys too, obviously, and more dig to find what's missing.  On occassion I miss tezz though.  I might bring back tezz for a fof, especially with 2 keys and mana vault now.  I just draw key twice as often, so tezz into vault can win the same turn as oposed to passing the turn.  We'll see in testing.  Fish hates a pyroclasm/old man mix though.  OMotS is awesome.  Thanks all for helping me tune the deck and find the fish hate I was looking for.

[bluemage55]

Obviously I'm going to want old men or pyroclasms, but probably not both...but maybe both.  If I have old man working, i don't need clasm.  If I don't have old man, then a 2 mana wrath of god isn't bad until i land the old guy.

Old Man is such a strong solution on its own that you don't really need pyroclasm when you run it.  Better to just run a third copy if you need the creature hate.

[xouman]

If the real threat are those critters, aether flash is more reliable than pyroclasms :p Sure, 4 mana is quite heavy (specially under null rod) and Gaddock avoids playing it, but I played it 12 years ago and while being slow, it was cracking.

Nevertheless, I won't play it, as it has been said you cannot commit to every deck, and probably that fish is not a Tier 1 or 2 in your meta. Cards like balance, Spell Snare (not only good against fish, but against drains, oath, spheres, vault...), tabernacle, Razormane masticore, grim lavamancer... and why not play Vendillion as suggested? It's fair with remoras, great against control but very nice so against fish, acting as a beater or blocking any nasty creature with flash.

And I have a crazy idea: liquimetal coating. It destroy lands with shaman, makes grudge a powerful creature killer, and then with welder + shaman you can take any permanent from the field. It's a terrible card by itself, but has beautiful synergies in your deck.

Aether flash would really be terrible.  Not only would they not play into it and it gets stopped by gaddock as you suggested, but they can drop a pridemage and sac it to kill the flash with the 2 damage on the stack.  I'd be lucky to kill a single creature that way.  Clique is not great either.  He runs 22 creatures, so making one go away and having him draw 1 is really just trading 1 creature for another.  Anything clique blocks will kill it, so it's just a 1-for-1 there. I don't see how clique is better than reb or lightning bolt in that case.  As far as blockers, I actually thought of serendib efreet or something.  He's a 3/4 flyer, so he kills 3/3 exalted guys and blocks/kills trygon.  He sticks around for a long time for 3 mana, costing 1 life a turn instead of 3-4. 

Lavamancer is a thought, and someone else mentioned it.  He requires stuff in the grave and to sit out there for a turn.  May be useful, but as I pointed out, a pyroclasm hitting 2-3 creatures does what it takes lavamancer 3-4 turns to do and all in 1 shot.  Worth testing though.

Tabernacle doesn't work as he just pays the mana and keeps his 2-3 creatures.  Razormane is too easily removed with relic warder, quasali, targeted removal, trygon (if he plays trygon first) and requires 5 mana plus a card.  He has tricks with welder, but it's expensive and questionable.  Balance is white and peacekeeper would just be better if I go white.  Spell snare is nice, but does nothing when drawn after the critter is already out.  Liquimetal coating is terrible by itself.  It depends on other cards to combo with it and doesn't answer things like trygon, qasali, relic warder.

AFAIK, if Pridemage gets 2 damage when entering the battlefield, it cannot be activated. Nevertheless Gaddock is still there, and there is another problem: trygon, and under null rod 2RR is too much. I reckon that pyroclasm seems the best solution by far.

I can't see how Old Man stops BSC :/ Also, sower looks better overall, doesn't it?

[Delha]

AFAIK, if Pridemage gets 2 damage when entering the battlefield, it cannot be activated.

You are wrong. It works exactly as TheWhiteDragon described.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Obviously I'm going to want old men or pyroclasms, but probably not both...but maybe both.  If I have old man working, i don't need clasm.  If I don't have old man, then a 2 mana wrath of god isn't bad until i land the old guy.

Old Man is such a strong solution on its own that you don't really need pyroclasm when you run it.  Better to just run a third copy if you need the creature hate.

I can't do this for 3 reasons:

1) Meddling mage - I need to vary my hate
2) Phyrexian revoker - shuts off old man as just a 2/3 blocker that gets killed by any 2/2 with exalted
3) When I draw them later, clasm sweeps the board whereas Old man takes time to catch up.  Both actually work together since clasm doesn't kill old man and just leaves the man and the trygons - which old man can then steal.
4) gifts lets me put old man, pyroclasm, tinker, 1 other as a no-win split for fish

I've been crushing that fish list now.  With inkwell, old man x2 and pyroclasm, I've been blasting all kinds of fish.  This has helped a lot.

I do miss tezz, and the remoras had advantage, but the fofs are very nice.  The alternate kill is good.  I actually added a 2nd key and it is very nice with mana vault and sensei top as well as time vault.  The deck is really running on 8 cylinders now.  Good work all.

[yespuhyren]

I can't see how Old Man stops BSC :/ Also, sower looks better overall, doesn't it?

It doesn't but...Seasinger and Dominating Licid would work lol.  

[TheWhiteDragon]

Lol...singer depends on them having an island.  Also, pyroclasm kills it, so they can't be used together.  Sower is a 1 for 1....2 for 1 at best.  Old man can be a repeated beating.  It doesn't stop tinkerbot, but I have welders, jace, and my own tinkerbots and counters.  Tinker is easier to handle then a steady stream of disruptive 2/2s.