Onslaught
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« on: October 17, 2011, 05:24:49 am » |
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The evolution of this deck was pretty simple.
Basically, Snapcaster is good with Phyrexian mana, so I tossed as many Phyrexian mana cards in as possible into a list. This led to running Therapy to complement the Gitaxian Probes, which led to using Bob to have more bodies for Therapy, etc. Also, Noxious for Time Walk is pretty good just with Snapcasters out, but an active Bob is what turns Noxious Revivals into victory conditions. Bob in general has been shoved out of the spotlight lately, falling behind Gush and experimental Snapcaster lists. With more emphasis on maindecks that are meant for blue vs. blue matchups, I guess Bob becomes less attractive. Ideally he would have around 6 Duress effects to try to get the game bogged down to where he can become overwhelming, but right now I'm just rolling with the set of Therapies.
4 Snapcaster Mage 3 Dark Confidant 1 Vendilion Clique 1 Blightsteel Colossus
R Ancestral Recall R Brainstorm 1 Sensei's Divining Top 4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will 2 Memory Lapse 2 Mental Misstep 2 Noxious Revival 1 Predict 1 Surgical Extraction 1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Cabal Therapy
R Vampiric Tutor R Mystical Tutor R Merchant Scroll R Demonic Tutor R Time Walk R Tinker R Yawgmoth's Will
7 Sol Ring/Moxes/Lotus 2 Riptide Lab 5 Fetch 4 Underground Sea 2 Island
SB: 4 Leyline, 4 Energy Flux, 2 Dismember, 2 Surgical Extraction, 1 Hurkyl's, 2 Island
At its heart, I thought of this as a turbo Tinker deck. Disrupt, filter through your deck, and play a protected Tinker (or peek at their hand to see if it's safe without protection). It turns out that it wins through 2/1 beats most of the time when you start overwhelming them with card advantage from Snapcaster on a bomb or Bob sitting online. This makes Memory Lapse go from a minor annoyance to very problematic for the opponent, since that one turn you've slowed them down could be enough to get the last few points of damage. Some card by card analysis from ~50 games:
Noxious Revival - completely insane. At the very worst use of it, you are playing a 0 mana Mystical Tutor that searches your GY instead of deck. Just an endstep Noxious putting Ancestral back for 0 mana is pretty good. Putting back Time Walk when you have some beaters down is really good. Using Snapcaster to Noxious stuff back onto your deck is where it starts getting insane, mainly Time Walk. This gives you multiple turns of swinging, and their window to win starts getting smaller and smaller. If you know the majority of their hand, and you Memory Lapsed something on top of their deck that won't be relevant once you go into beatdown mode (say, a Mental Misssep), then Noxious looping a Time Walk is pretty much auto game. It doesn't end there though, because Noxious in the late game also becomes a 0 mana instant speed Time Walk by throwing junk on top of their deck. If they are facing down 4 power worth of attackers at 12 life and you know their hand has no outs, Noxious putting a fetch on top of their deck is completely backbreaking. It's not uncommon to play an endstep Snapcaster flashing Noxious, give them a dead card on top, and just untap and win the game in two or three turns (ivia Time Walk, or playing another Noxious, etc).
Snapcaster - I know some people are on the fence about him, but I think he's going to end up being better than Bob in the long run...
Clique - I could easily see cutting basically anything for a second copy of it. It helps Therapy hit, it wrecks Jace, and just overall fits in perfectly with the decks desire to know what is coming up while providing some beats.
Memory Lapse - I wanted a 1U counter, and Memory Lapse just felt like it suited the deck more than Mana Leak due to the inclusion of Noxious Revival. It turns out this was the right decision, especially when you are going for a quick Tinker.
Therapy - The emergency release valve for Bob is nice, and if you are desperate to generate some action you can always Snapcaster flashing Probe for 2 life and then sac it to Therapy. The overall interaction of Memory Lapse/Therapy/hand viewing effects/Extraction/Predict just flowed really nice. Very fun, and pretty effective. Now that I think of it, the majority of the sick plays revolved around flashing Extraction with Snapcaster in a midgame situation.
Riptide Lab - it was hit or miss. Using it as an emergency shut off valve for Bob came up a few times. It's pretty threatening if you play it after a stalemate, just for the fact that using Memory Lapse two turns in a row with some beaters down is really strong.
Surgical Extraction/Predict - They both suhffle the opponent's deck after a Memory Lapse and they both disrupt topdeck tutors, but Extraction just happens to do it for free. Extraction is also a complete blowout when you look at their hand with Clique/Probe and then Extract something that will cost them cards from their hand. The x1 Predict should probably be another Surgical Extraction, though Predict was very amusing.
So right now, it's not finely tuned or anything. This was more like one of those lists where you just toss everything in that seems good on paper, make arbitrary cuts, and then go from there. The problem is, I had so much fun playing it all day that I just left it alone. It's really, really fun. It's a fairly active deck since so many of your spells are free, and you usually have a fair amount of decisions to make based on your ongoing knowledge of the opponent's hand, top of his deck, top of your deck, etc. It's obviously horrible against Shops like all Gro-ish decks are, shrug. There are tons of little synergies that seem cute/gimmicky, but they seemed to come together in a way that augmented their various effects. Pretty much every card in the deck interacts positively with at least two other cards, which makes it feel like the sum is greater than the parts.
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Daenyth
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« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2011, 09:39:23 am » |
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That list looks pretty scary. I like where it's going.
Have you wanted any other/more duress effects than just therapy?
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Team #olddrafts4you -- losing games since 2004
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diopter
I voted for Smmenen!
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« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2011, 10:14:49 am » |
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This was more like one of those lists where you just toss everything in that seems good on paper, make arbitrary cuts, and then go from there That explains a lot.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2011, 12:46:04 pm » |
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I am intrigued by the possibility of a deck where a good chunk of your cards function to either do something for yourself OR cut the opponent off resources. Along these lines, have you considered using Portent as a cantrip effect? I also wonder whether Mana Drain has a place here, because you really want extra mana to be able to get quick access to Snapcaster.
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Onslaught
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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2011, 04:32:18 pm » |
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That list looks pretty scary. I like where it's going.
Have you wanted any other/more duress effects than just therapy?
Thanks. I would love to squeeze in at least one more Duress for sure. You have so much information about their hand and the top of their deck though, so Therapy rarely misses. So I guess in that sense, the Duress would be more about "let's make one for one trades from your hand to slow the game down and let Bob go hog wild" rather than "I need more ways to see what's in their hand to let Therapy hit." Flashing Therapy after playing it blind perfectly fine too when you're on the Tinker plan. In some games, you can count Surgical Extraction as a Duress too. It's not uncommon to Therapy or Probe to see if their hand has a copy of something that is also in their GY, and then Extraction. That explains a lot.
When's the last time you've even played an actual game of Vintage? The handful of posts you have made after 2009 are all just drive-by insipid comments fulll of broadly definitive statements that indicate you don't actually play at all. It takes about 5 games of playing with Snapcaster to see how good it is in Vintage, but you still dismiss him. It also only takes a few games of playing with Riptide Lab to see how viable it is, but you still disagreed with people who used it to top cut at the Waterbury in actual matches. Similarly, the first time you play Noxious Revival with Snapcaster Mage it becomes evident how strong they are together. This list is rough, but the main takeaway from it should be about the unbelievable power of Noxious Revival. I am intrigued by the possibility of a deck where a good chunk of your cards function to either do something for yourself OR cut the opponent off resources. Along these lines, have you considered using Portent as a cantrip effect? I also wonder whether Mana Drain has a place here, because you really want extra mana to be able to get quick access to Snapcaster.
I loved the idea of Portent in this deck! It was on the initial scribbled out list of candidates for the deck, and it just got left by the wayside as slots got tighter and tighter. It plays so nicely with Memory Lapse and Predict, but I guess you'd have to Noxious a non-fetch land on top of their deck to make sure they can't shuffle out of the junk you put on top with Portent. It would be really fun to fit in though. As far as Drain, I wanted to cheat with a super low mana base (only 13 land, though technically you're a 56 card deck due to Probe) and opted for the 1U counters instead. Also in some instances, I think Memory Lapse is actually better than Drain. Depending on how the sequencing goes, putting a FOW or Drain on top of their deck can be better than a hardcounter. When you have a clock down and you've already been taking a few extra turns, Memory Lapse is pretty sick. It's also nice for the fast Tinker plan, because if they don't already have an answer in hand then they've already lost. Speaking of Tinker, the original list of candidates for the deck had Imperial Seal on it. The idea was to play every card possible to find Ancestral Recall quickly and begin reusing it, and you can even do a ghetto demonic with Seal and Probe. If Seal is in the list, then -1 BSC/-1 Something for Vault/Key probably makes a lot more sense.
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nineisnoone
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The Laughing Magician
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« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2011, 06:18:24 pm » |
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is the benefit of Therapy really worth it whiffing? aside from a few cards, I can't think of any cards where you are likely to see multiples and it still be a strong play. best is probably Snapcaster.
Are the tutors really worth it here? I don't really see much worth tutoring for and you could add in some MD hate (zero artifact hate in the main?) or those additional duress effects. with noxious you already have a lot of card disadvantage.
i'm not really sold on probe and memory lapse. you run duress and actually interact with the opponent and get the information as well. lapse, i see your point, and probably need to test it more, but to me it feels vulnerable to be played around. putting a FOW on their deck is not the issue, this issue is putting Tinker back on their deck or some other bomb.
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I laugh a great deal because I like to laugh, but everything I say is deadly serious.
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SadDubs
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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2011, 01:37:11 am » |
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maybe have two tinker bots instead of just one considering the use of all your recursion spells. Maybe have the second bot be a bit cheaper so that when things go wrong you can just cast him and beat face with a bob and mage along side.
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serracollector
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2011, 02:12:28 am » |
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If you went with 2 tinker targets, I would suggest Batterskull, its easier on life pts to confidant than Sphinx, and could gain you life, which seems quite important in this deck. You probably kill yourself more than your opponent does.
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SadDubs
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« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2011, 04:12:11 am » |
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this seems like it could benefit from a tendrils or empty the warrens. Otherwise you could just toss in the time vault combo.
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Masta
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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2011, 02:27:42 pm » |
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This looks like a great start to a likely powerful new deck in Vintage, congratulations!
I've been out of Vintage for awhile but the new 0CC spells are broken, and it's awesome to see you put this together. Snapmage + Noxious Revival synergy looks amazing for sure, as does your overall deck synergy. Looks like you could have trouble early game unless you land a big Cabal Therapy. You don't out-control, out-disrupt, or out-aggro decks that do it better. You're relying on sort of a Fish like win strategy by skating by long enough with quick hitting low CC spells and keeping card advantage to pull out a Tinker win, which is fine. You also have a storm win condition if you choose to include it.
This deck screams Tendrils, if anything a sideboard singleton at the minimum.
Would Thirst for Knowledge be viable? You only have a handful of artifacts, but it fills up your yard for Snapmage and Noxious Revival use. Although I suppose any card like Read the Runes could do that. I haven't played it but it looks like you use your graveyard heavily.
What's your ideal typical draw?
- Masta
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« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 02:34:43 pm by Masta »
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serracollector
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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2011, 04:24:13 pm » |
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I have found that an early wasteland/strip followed by Surgical Extraction is devastating. Remove all your Useas, Remove all your Workshops, remove all your Mishra's Factories, etc. etc. This also works well with thoughtseize obv. Getting a first turn waste or TS, extract, turn 2 Snap, recast extract, has won me quite a few games. I would suggest trying wastelands, and change the 4 cabal's into Thoughseizes, and the 4 gitaxin probe into like 2 more extracts, and 2 of w/e else (mental misstep, flusterstorm, MindbreakTrap, all come to mind). Good luck, its a nice build, and fun to play.
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BlackVise
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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2011, 05:07:48 pm » |
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I definitely think Tendrils would be good in here, as between Dark Confidant and the Phyrexian mana you run the risk of losing a lot of life quite quickly. Also, have you considered Chain of Vapor? As far as I can see, you don't have any answers to a resolved Chalice of the Void@2, and Chain of Vapor would also be useful in situations where your own Dark Confidants are likely to bring you down to 0. Other than that, I really like the look of this deck!  Good luck with it! 
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Bill Copes
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2011, 08:38:59 pm » |
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I played a slightly tinkered version of this type of deck to a top 4 split at the last Myriad tournament: 4 Polluted Delta 2 Misty Rainforest 3 Island 1 Swamp 3 Underground Sea 1 Riptide Laboratory 1 Tolarian Academy 1 Black Lotus 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Sol Ring 1 Blightsteel Colossus 4 Dark Confidant 4 Snapcaster Mage 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Brainstorm 1 Ponder 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Extirpate 1 Surgical Extraction 1 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Merchant Scroll 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Time Walk 1 Tinker 1 Noxious Revival 4 Force of Will 2 Mana Drain 2 Mental Misstep 2 Duress 2 Spellpierce 1 Jace, the Mindsculptor 1 Time Vault 1 Voltaic Key SB (fairly accurate, but quantities might be off): 1 Strip Mine 2 Wasteland 2 Hurks 1 Echoing Truth 3 Extirpate 1 Duress 1 Dismember 1 Darkblast 2 Mindbreak Trap 1 . . . card I fail to remember . . . I never test, so all card choices were based on wanting to try a few ideas after finding this thread. I have to admit I'm afraid to play Memory Lapse. Does it work? Anyway, this deck is the real deal. Confidants end up being a great advantage engine when you time walk 3 times. As if they weren't good enough already. I think another strength of confidant in this newly emerging meta is that it completely dodges extirpate effects, if they become widely popular (snapcaster decks). Gush kind of folds to being extirpated 3 times. I know, I made it happen. I've made some updates to the list, one of which was trimming it down to 60. I bought new sleeves . . . don't have 61  I clipped out the spell pierces for more drains and missteps, as pierce was dead as a late game counter a lot of the time. I squeezed a second jace and a top in there, too. Bob flips were a factor. These types of decks are mad fun to play. If you haven't sleeved this up yet, I highly recommend you try it!
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I'm the only other legal target, so I draw 6 cards, and he literally quits Magic. Terrorists searching in vain for these powerful weapons have the saying "Bill Copes spitteth, and he taketh away." Team TMD
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DubDub
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« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2011, 10:44:12 pm » |
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Is Memory Lapse meant to be good against flashbacked spells from opponents' Snapcasters? If so I would heavily recommend Remand in its place. Remand would offer additional card draw. Also, at times Remanding your own spell is going to be really good. Remand your own Flusterstorm then cast it again. Remand your own Mindbreak Trap then cast it again. Remand your own Gush (if it's going to get countered) then (if under Fastbond) cast it again.
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.
Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops. I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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Onslaught
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« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2011, 07:15:43 am » |
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Cool to see the theory paying off in real life with a T4 finish, congrats!
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Bill Copes
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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2011, 09:06:42 am » |
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Is Memory Lapse meant to be good against flashbacked spells from opponents' Snapcasters? If so I would heavily recommend Remand in its place. Remand would offer additional card draw. Also, at times Remanding your own spell is going to be really good. Remand your own Flusterstorm then cast it again. Remand your own Mindbreak Trap then cast it again. Remand your own Gush (if it's going to get countered) then (if under Fastbond) cast it again.
*Stars lit up my eyes* Fuck. Now I need a play set of yet another card. Thanks, Onslaught!
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I'm the only other legal target, so I draw 6 cards, and he literally quits Magic. Terrorists searching in vain for these powerful weapons have the saying "Bill Copes spitteth, and he taketh away." Team TMD
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diopter
I voted for Smmenen!
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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2011, 09:53:57 am » |
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Onslaught: I present a common Noxious Revival scenario.
Vamp ,Mystical or Seal for early Ancestral, but the latter gets Misstep'd (you trade Forces). Two topdecks later you draw that regrown Recall, but in that window your opponent topdecked a *second* Misstep or a Flusterstorm, or received it through Bob/Gush.
A common variation: You have Misstep for the first counterwar - you win and never needed Revival.
Another common variation: You have Misstep for the second counterwar. This means you needed at least 3 topdecks (you wouldn't have held it back when fighting the first one) and now are so far behind that AR just pulls you even.
A viable alternative: Play 4 Confidants. Land one, dodges Misstep, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Blasts etc. and pulls you out of your early hole.
---
My criticism here is that you basically called the deck a pile of good cards randomly pared down to 60 - but what is your gameplan? I discerned an intriguing innovation - Dark Confidant and Snapcaster Mage, used together to maximize the utility of each card Bob provides (sort of like a weaker version of Corrupt Necro). But it's not like you presented the deck as having this primary path to victory.
I ended up testing the Confidant + Mage engine, and dearly wanted it to work and to be proven wrong about Mage. But it usually ended up that I would've preferred to topdeck Jaces or the actual countermagic I was going to Snap-cast instead.
Post script: it takes only a few games to understand why Riptide Lab is not very good in the window that matters.
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Bill Copes
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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2011, 11:24:10 am » |
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My criticism here is that you basically called the deck a pile of good cards randomly pared down to 60 - but what is your gameplan? I discerned an intriguing innovation - Dark Confidant and Snapcaster Mage, used together to maximize the utility of each card Bob provides (sort of like a weaker version of Corrupt Necro). But it's not like you presented the deck as having this primary path to victory.
I ended up testing the Confidant + Mage engine, and dearly wanted it to work and to be proven wrong about Mage. But it usually ended up that I would've preferred to topdeck Jaces or the actual countermagic I was going to Snap-cast instead.
Post script: it takes only a few games to understand why Riptide Lab is not very good in the window that matters.
Riptide has only proven itself worthy once in tournament play (bouncing a mage to be replayed, to get access to dispelled counters later). I feel your assessment is correct. I'm not really sure how to articulate the primary path to victory. I'll try?: • Ride the age-old Bob Card Advantage Engine. • Play efficient counters (7 turn 0 counters available, 10 total). • Supplement these with Snapcaster Recursion of counters and dispelled bomb sorceries/instants (i.e. reuse elements of your discarded restricted list outside of the yawgWill turn). • Leverage restricted list and Jace power like the other blue decks -- non sequitur: have more answers to opponents' jaces and mad synergy with yours Finally, • Oops, ya got vault + key'd
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I'm the only other legal target, so I draw 6 cards, and he literally quits Magic. Terrorists searching in vain for these powerful weapons have the saying "Bill Copes spitteth, and he taketh away." Team TMD
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diopter
I voted for Smmenen!
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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2011, 11:36:31 am » |
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Supplement these with Snapcaster Recursion of counters and dispelled bomb sorceries/instants (i.e. reuse elements of your discarded restricted list outside of the yawgWill turn) Here is the choke point. When I flip Tinker and draw Snapcaster I'd MUCH rather have flipped Tinker and drawn an extra Flusterstorm instead. Substitute Jace for Tinker and it becomes an ultra-repeatable play.
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Bill Copes
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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2011, 11:55:20 am » |
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Supplement these with Snapcaster Recursion of counters and dispelled bomb sorceries/instants (i.e. reuse elements of your discarded restricted list outside of the yawgWill turn) Here is the choke point. When I flip Tinker and draw Snapcaster I'd MUCH rather have flipped Tinker and drawn an extra Flusterstorm instead. Substitute Jace for Tinker and it becomes an ultra-repeatable play. I see what you mean -- drawing raw protection is stronger than having access to recurring it. That type of situation did occur now and then during game play. I guess the flip side of the coin is that Snapcaster is better than the extra counters at helping dig for an out/win during the topdeck war. Perhaps Snapcasters are the glass cannon element of the NeoBob Control deck - they offer the opportunity to do extremely broken things at the cost of being kinda useless once in a while.
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I'm the only other legal target, so I draw 6 cards, and he literally quits Magic. Terrorists searching in vain for these powerful weapons have the saying "Bill Copes spitteth, and he taketh away." Team TMD
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diopter
I voted for Smmenen!
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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2011, 12:15:02 pm » |
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I should note that if you ever get to, say, turn 6+ where you're sitting on, say, 4+ lands and multiple jools, that Tinker + Snapcast is pretty good. However when the game is still on the line (turn 3, say) it's not optimal to lead with Tinker as a test spell and then try and assemble 5 mana for the next turn's regrown Tinker
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Bill Copes
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« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2011, 12:29:00 pm » |
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it's not optimal to lead with Tinker as a test spell and then try and assemble 5 mana for the next turn's regrown Tinker Agreed! I'd wait another turn or two in this situation until the tinker window actually opened.
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I'm the only other legal target, so I draw 6 cards, and he literally quits Magic. Terrorists searching in vain for these powerful weapons have the saying "Bill Copes spitteth, and he taketh away." Team TMD
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Grand Inquisitor
Always the play, never the thing
Adepts
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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2011, 03:04:09 pm » |
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Perhaps Snapcasters are the glass cannon element of the NeoBob Control deck I think they have a roll to play, it just needs to be moderated relative to the reality of game play. Eg, right now, I don't have a test list that runs more than two. And I really think we're past the point where someone claimed that riptide lab is GG after turn 3.
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There is not a single argument in your post. Just statements that have no meaning. - Guli
It's pretty awesome that I did that - Smmenen
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halo295
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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2011, 04:03:04 pm » |
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Bill what did you cut to make room for the top and Jace?? Also would you play Riptide Lab going forward or just run another fetch?
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Bill Copes
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2011, 04:46:57 pm » |
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I moved the duress effects to the sideboard for the Top and the second Jace. I'll probably stick on Riptide lab for now, as it's really really good in the late game and is another way to shut off Bob if your life total gets hairy.
This is what I plan on running, on Saturday:
Mana: 1 Black Lotus 1 Mana Crypt 1 Sol Ring 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire
4 Polluted Delta 2 Misty Rainforest 3 Island 3 Underground Sea 1 Swamp 1 Tolarian Academy 1 Riptide Laboratory
Wins: 2 Jace, The Mindsculptor 1 Time Vault 1 Voltaic Key
Protection: 4 Force of Will 3 Mana Drain 3 Mental Misstep
Creatures: 4 Dark Confidant 4 Snapcaster Mage 1 Blightsteel Colossus
Usual Suspects: 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Time Walk 1 Ponder 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Merchant Scroll 1 Brainstorm 1 Tinker 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Yawgmoth's Will
Flex Slots: 1 Cranal Surgical Extraction (Whoops!) 1 Extirpate 1 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Hurkyl's Recall
Sideboard: 3 Energy Flux 2 Wasteland 2 Thoughtsieze 2 Extirpate 2 Nihil Spellbomb 1 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Strip Mine 1 Dismember 1 Echoing Truth
If I find another pack of those sleeves, my 61st card will be a lone Noxious Revival.
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« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 09:00:20 am by AbdullahTheButcher »
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I'm the only other legal target, so I draw 6 cards, and he literally quits Magic. Terrorists searching in vain for these powerful weapons have the saying "Bill Copes spitteth, and he taketh away." Team TMD
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halo295
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2011, 05:29:28 pm » |
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I like the list. It might be something i decide to play seeing as I don't want to play gush and this still is a good blue deck.
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DubDub
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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2011, 06:06:08 pm » |
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1 Cranal Extraction
Surgical, I hope.
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.
Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops. I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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Onslaught
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this is me reading your posts
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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2011, 06:38:07 am » |
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Vamp ,Mystical or Seal for early Ancestral, but the latter gets Misstep'd (you trade Forces). Two topdecks later you draw that regrown Recall, but in that window your opponent topdecked a *second* Misstep or a Flusterstorm, or received it through Bob/Gush.
Why am I walking Ancestral into a Misstep when I'm using a deck that constantly has a zillion ways to know what the opponent has in his hand? A common variation: You have Misstep for the first counterwar - you win and never needed Revival. Huh? If I had Revival in this scenario then it is a complete blowout. Noxious putting Ancestral back after resolving it is prtty much game, and then after that you have the luxury of deciding to Snapcaster flashing Noxious for: A) Ancestral again, B) Time Walk if I have Bob online (or if random beats is close to getting there), C) Wreck the top of their deck - but what is your gameplan? Extend the game to the point where Bob becomes overwhelming. The best way to muck them up is by taking away their engine. Snapcaster helps with this a lot. Snapcaster on Surgical Extraction is stupidly good if you can make one (or both) of them also hit something in their hand. If you are on the multiple Noxious plan, you can win through beats pretty easily if you can muck up their speed with Duress/Extraction effects. Otherwise, you play the early tempo game and resolve Bob. If you're on the heavier control plan like Bill's build, then you're doing it through attrition. Bob finds you mana, Snapcaster makes your counter density seemingly insurmountable, and then that snowballs into an *actually* insurmountable advantage (Riptide Lab, or a resolved Jace, or w/e) until you win with Tinker and/or Vault/Key. And I really think we're past the point where someone claimed that riptide lab is GG after turn 3. Riptide Lab is GG on like turn 7. If the game turns into a topdeck war after you've both exhausted all resources, it is an uncounterable "I win" button. Is Memory Lapse meant to be good against flashbacked spells from opponents' Snapcasters? If so I would heavily recommend Remand in its place. Remand would offer additional card draw. Remand is dope for Surgical Extraction too, bounce a non restricted spell and then nuke a second copy of it from their graveyard for +1000 card advantage. I have found that an early wasteland/strip followed by Surgical Extraction is devastating. I def wanna try an even more aggressive version with 5 Waste Strip and four Surgical Extraction. Assuming you have enough ways to answer a Tinker bot, it seriously feels like going crazy with Extractions will be completely viable. Every time I flash it in this deck I think "I wish there were more of these in here." Are the tutors really worth it here? Yea, finding restricted stuff for Snapcaster to recur ASAP is really good. I've been out of Vintage for awhile but the new 0CC spells are broken It's kinda sad/funny how almost every single Phyrexian mana card turned out to be playable in Vintage. Mental Misstep is a staple now with far reaching implications, Dismember is a solid sideboard card against Workshops, Phyrexian Metamorph is completely ridiculous (and even non-Workshop decks are starting to abuse him now), Surgical Extraction is ridiculous with Snapcaster, Noxious Revival has seen play in Euro Gush decks and IMO is being slept on hardcore right now so it has room to grow, Slash Panther gave MUD decks a huge tempo boost/answer to Jace, and Gitaxian Probe has already seen marginal play in Doomsday or some Cabal Therapy variants. Thanks for the kind words about the deck! I'm pretty sleepy right now so I don't feel entirely coherent, but hopefully I responded to everything that I've been meaning to address.
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Bill Copes
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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2011, 09:04:34 am » |
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1 Cranal Extraction
Surgical, I hope. Noted and fixed. Thank you! I feel the card names are a hair too similar.
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I'm the only other legal target, so I draw 6 cards, and he literally quits Magic. Terrorists searching in vain for these powerful weapons have the saying "Bill Copes spitteth, and he taketh away." Team TMD
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diopter
I voted for Smmenen!
Basic User
 
Posts: 1049
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« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2011, 09:45:46 am » |
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Onslaught: your deck is very far removed from the Bob CA gameplan (which I agree is a good gameplan): - You run only 3 Confidants. - You run 4 Probes which is totally dissynergystic with Bob. The latter is supposed to make you a strong mulliganing deck but the former completely destroys that advantage.
Furthermore, you run Therapies which can become Duress x 2 *if* you have Probe (mentioned above as being bad) or Duress x 1.5 if you sacc your Confidant (which I get is a plus on turn 5 since you are losing so much life, but it kind of runs counter to a Bob CA plan to not gave Bob on board).
Of course you can counter by pointing at synergies with Snapcaster Mage but I'll ask you how often you really are able to get this (admittedly very strong) line of play:
Probe -> draw Snapcaster -> Snapcast Probe -> draw Therapy -> Therapy and hit -> flashback Therapy saccing Snapcaster and hit.
A terrific sequence but this scenario seems more likely:
Opening hand has 1 land + Probe - too risky, have to mulligan -OR- Opening hand has 1 land + Probe - keep it, no land drawn, F7U12 etc.
I don't know if you see the problem the way I see it here. Your deck is fighting itself at every step. The most reliable gameplan in your deck (ride Bob) is undermined by all these other marginal pieces you need to run to make your other [less reliable] gameplans (Snapcast as Time Walk, or Revival into broken stuff) more powerful.
If you want advice: take your deck in a more reliable direction. AtB's list is a strong start. Full 4 Confidant and a suite of tactics that doesn't actively undermine them.
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