"The Unbroken" U/R Landstill: The Primer

[Samoht]

Buddies,

Any chance to 'Ral Zarek', the new Planewalker, sees play in UR Landstill?

Unlikely. The + doesn't have the stay tapped clause so it's very situational. Bolt is always good, but the cost is a bit prohibitive. The ult isn't even that game ending for Landstill. You just have better options.

That said I'm sure someone will play it and win in spite of its inclusion.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

I would rather play 4 jace then ral, and I hate 4 jace.

[vaughnbros]

Buddies,

Any chance to 'Ral Zarek', the new Planewalker, sees play in UR Landstill?

Unlikely. The + doesn't have the stay tapped clause so it's very situational. Bolt is always good, but the cost is a bit prohibitive. The ult isn't even that game ending for Landstill. You just have better options.

I agree its definitely not auto include material, but I think its at least worth exploring.  

The + ability isn't really that situational in landstill.  Every time you have factory out you can benefit pretty greatly from it.  Someone else also mentioned it being used in conjunction with wasteland to force people to crack fetches.  It also helps to keep up double blue at all times.

The 2 lightning bolts is one of the huge advantages that this has over other cards.  Although ire//ice, izzet charm, lightning bolt are more mana efficient can only 1 for 1.  You can keep calling him an inefficient lightning bolt all you want, but thats not what he is.  Hes usually going to be at least a 2 for 1.

The other big advantage I see is that he can be just as game breaking in conjunction with standstill as Jace is.  He has the ability to mop up the one creature on your opponents side.  And although his ultimate isn't necessarily game breaking, his ability to throw down a ton of lightning bolts is.

I would rather play 4 jace then ral, and I hate 4 jace.

For me there isn't really an option other than 4 Jace, but I think thats a different discussion more about your play style with Jace.  Although Ral is weaker than Jace in most situations for this deck a big thing he does have going to for him is that you can play Jace and him out at the same time.  So for players that are scared of running 4 Jace because it gets trapped in your hand this isn't a worry of running Ral.

I can definitely see him being played as a 2 of.  Maybe over the 2nd Crucible and 1 of the fringe playable counters/removal spells.  With all the deathrite shamans running around I really don't think crucible is as powerful as it used to be.  

That said I'm sure someone will play it and win in spite of its inclusion.

I feel like someone needs a hug

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I feel maybe it's a 1 of. But time will tell. I will put it through testing just as I did with thespians stage. I think this card may have a slight edge over stage in playability in this deck but not by much. So I'm not sure it will make the cut. But a 1 of might pop up at some point...

[Samoht]

Cutting the Crucible for this is the most absurd thing I've heard. That card is vital in so many more ways to the plan of this deck.

I don't need hugs, I need people to understand that there are other factors that go into top 8'ing or winning with an obscure 1 of than just the obscure 1 of.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Josh, you are going about it all wrong. You play ral and thesian stage so that you can use his + ability to untap the stage.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Lol yeah I wouldn't be cutting crucible, but to each their own haha!

[disrupting specter]

I played some games recently against Landstill. The games were probably not typical. My opponent's head was admittedly not in the game and I was playing an experimental aggro brew that I was planning to take apart as the games were going on. My deck won most of the games. I usually lose to him. So these are probably niche circumstances but I figures I would bring them up anyway.

Normally, I find Wasteland useless against anyone who doesn't play a greedy mana base-approximately, 3 or less colors, two on color basics, 17 or more lands total. I found Wastelands very useful against Landstill for making my creatures connect. Would you ever consider taking out manlands to blank opponent's Wasteland? I don't know what would go in. Decree of Justice?

I guess on a related note, what do you think of UW 'still? It seems like a different deck as it is played now in spite of the name. It seems like you would only want to play Standstill after you have board position, where in UR you can almost play it whenever and it doesn't stop you from developing your board. Also I find it strange that iamfishman has been playing UW 'still because Stoneforge Mystic seems to violate his statement from long ago that Smokestack is bad because it does nothing for the turn it is cast or the next two turns until your opponent's second upkeep. Similarly, Stoneforge only gives you a Squire until your next turn. (And I feel like Oath is bad for this reason too.)

The afore mentioned games and deck I played had 5 cards that target artifacts. It was pretty easy for me to keep Crucible off the table. Would you ever consider Life from the Loam?

Would you ever consider playing a Barbarian Ring? It does not deal 3 damage so it does not hit Lodestone Golem or anything bigger. It gets around spheres, Chalice of the Void, and counterspells in the late game.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I played some games recently against Landstill. The games were probably not typical. My opponent's head was admittedly not in the game and I was playing an experimental aggro brew that I was planning to take apart as the games were going on. My deck won most of the games. I usually lose to him. So these are probably niche circumstances but I figures I would bring them up anyway.

Normally, I find Wasteland useless against anyone who doesn't play a greedy mana base-approximately, 3 or less colors, two on color basics, 17 or more lands total. I found Wastelands very useful against Landstill for making my creatures connect. Would you ever consider taking out manlands to blank opponent's Wasteland? I don't know what would go in. Decree of Justice?

I guess on a related note, what do you think of UW 'still? It seems like a different deck as it is played now in spite of the name. It seems like you would only want to play Standstill after you have board position, where in UR you can almost play it whenever and it doesn't stop you from developing your board. Also I find it strange that iamfishman has been playing UW 'still because Stoneforge Mystic seems to violate his statement from long ago that Smokestack is bad because it does nothing for the turn it is cast or the next two turns until your opponent's second upkeep. Similarly, Stoneforge only gives you a Squire until your next turn. (And I feel like Oath is bad for this reason too.)

The afore mentioned games and deck I played had 5 cards that target artifacts. It was pretty easy for me to keep Crucible off the table. Would you ever consider Life from the Loam?

Would you ever consider playing a Barbarian Ring? It does not deal 3 damage so it does not hit Lodestone Golem or anything bigger. It gets around spheres, Chalice of the Void, and counterspells in the late game.

Wasting the man lands happens, and to answer your Q...No I would not cut the man lands. I have experimented with decree and sometimes its good but most of the time its only ok or poor. Against aggro you also have EE's (if you're playing them), 4 Jace, and some number of instant removal. So I mean a lot of how landstill looks/plays in testing is a direct result of the person piloting it. It is not an easy deck to pilot correctly (I have seen the best players in the world try to pilot it and it was pretty poor. The small play errors in this deck can and sometimes will result in losses). You can also bait certain lands into wasteland first depending on the hand, etc.

I don't like SFM too much for the reason you listed. Not to mention it makes the deck less flexible because generally you are steeling those slots from EE or control and I would prefer to do neither...

Loam is an interesting card no doubt but it strains the mana base more then deck needs. The 3rd color is generally such a tiny splash, also crucible is a permanent against workshops in which you don't need to cast each time like you must do with loam. Spheres obviously hinder this action to an extent.

I have found artifact hate to be only a speed bump in hating out landstill, nothing more. Because realistically I have a lot of other cards that help me win the aggro matchup...

As for Barbarian Ring. The card is awesome...I played it a while ago in some lists and it is good. Sometimes it depends on what the mana base looks like, if you can squeeze it in the deck or not...

So in conclusion, this is how I look at the scenarios you gave. They may just be from experience  haha. But no seriously you had a lot of legit questions and concerns. I hope this helped. As I said finding a quality landstill pilot is probably really really hard. There are such small interactions that your average vintage player would miss or overlook...

[Tha Gunslinga]

Just won a 13-person tournament with LandStill.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45233.0

Not an optimal list--I should have left the mana alone, but it was still pretty good.  I kinda want to tinker with the maindeck more, but we'll see. 

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Just won a 13-person tournament with LandStill.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45233.0

Not an optimal list--I should have left the mana alone, but it was still pretty good.  I kinda want to tinker with the maindeck more, but we'll see.  

Nice job, I'm surprised to see only 24 mana sources total. In my testing that has not been enough to fight shops, and especially with no crucible...good job never the less!

With that said, if you expect less prison style workshop decks 24 is probably fine. I just know in the east coast meta we generally have a lot of workshops. Last time I played 24 was a few years ago. Recently I have been at 25 or 26. But again like I said this can all be related to different meta games...

[Tha Gunslinga]

Yeah, I really just haven't seen Shops in months.  Previously I had a pair of Crucibles main, Hurk's and Steel Sabotage main, and 3 Flux and 2 Sabotage in the board.  Some of that will be coming back.

[credmond]

Does Notion Thief belong in a Landstill build? He makes standstill better for the standstill player meaning that if he is in play under your standstill you can go ahead and crack your own standstill with impunity to get an immediate draw 3. That's pretty sick

Also creatures with flash tend to work well in landstill (compare to Clique) since as the landstill player you like to hold up mana and wait for the opponent to flinch first or sneak flash dudes in at end of opponent's turn. This guy can effectively win the game on the spot if he hits brainstorm, jacestorm, thirst, gush, ancestral, wheel of fortune, jar, etc. and he can net significant CA elsewhere. But sneaking him in at opponent's eot and then laying a standstill on top during your turn is also a brutal line of play. He seems to fit the style of play involved with piloting landstill.

When he was first spoiled people were maybe first thinking of him in human caverns and then bomberman or grixis where he would be stronger. I am wondering if his best home is Landstill.

[orgcandman]

I'd say go ahead and test it, but I don't think it will resolve any of the problems that plague landstill. It doesn't recover the early game where landstill starts to get behind. Consider that if you have any threat on board, standstill is great. Notion Theif makes standstill an interesting dynamic, that's for sure, but I don't think it helps enough where landstill needs it.

Also consider that the black splash is historically not as strong as either red  or white splashes, and isn't as good a tertiary color as green, for folks that run it. I'm not sure that a new archetype wouldn't just be a better approach.

[TheWhiteDragon]

One thing I saw when I looked at this card...if you cast it, you can then drop your own standstills and break them to force your opponent (i.e. you) to draw 3.  May be cute, or may be great.  Not yet sure.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I would consider testing Notion Thief in UB landstill or UBr landstill. I would start by testing 2 Thief, 3 Jace, 2 Clique, 3-4 Dismember, and 2-3 Engineered Explosives...

As noted above it doesn't solve any of landstills problems but it is an interesting card and may be correct in a certain meta game at some point...

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Got 2nd today at TDG today taking home $360 credit resulting in a Mox Pearl!

URb Landstill

4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Spell Piece
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Mental Misstep
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Mountian
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

Sideboard
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Goblin Welder
2 Bojuka Bog
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Yixlid Jailer

Rd 1, 2-1 win Rob Edwards on Martello
Rd 2, 2-0 win Justin Kohler on Bomberman
Rd 3, 2-1 win Ryan Glackin on Dredge
ID Rounds 4 & 5

Top 8, 2-1 win vs Will McGrann on Tera Nova
Top 4, 2-0 win vs Matt Elias on Burning Oath
Finals, 1-2 Loss vs Joel Lim on Merfolk

2 toughest matches on the day was Tera Nova in t8 and Merfolk in the finals. In the Merfolk matchup in game 3 I was just about to set up a blowout turn mid game involving clearing all of his lords with EE and casting Jace, but he landed null rod and I lost. Over all really happy with the newest list here. Barbarian ring and Reb were all stars in key situations on the day!!!

[brianpk80]

Congratulations Josh!  Nice tech. 

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Thanks Brian!

[StanleyAugust]

Congratulations, Josh.

I've brewed this together with some inspiration from you, Josh. Have you tested an UBr build similar to this?

Mana:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Mishra's Factory
1 Faerie Conclave

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island

4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest

1 Library of Alexandria

Creatures:

2 Notion Thief
2 Vendilion Clique

Answers:

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Dismember
1 Hurkyl's Recall

2 Crucible of Worlds

Draw:

4 Standstill
1 Ancestral Recall

Counters:

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Mental Misstep
2 Mindbreak Trap

Because of the inclusion of 2 Notion Thief and 2 Vendilion Clique, I'm considering cutting a single Factory even though it might sound a little controversial. Any thoughts anyone?

[rbtabris]

Josh,

Congratulations on the finish. Would you be able to recall more detail on your match against Justin? I'm curious.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Josh,

Congratulations on the finish. Would you be able to recall more detail on your match against Justin? I'm curious.

Yeah slightly...

I win the roll and I am on the play. My hand consists of something like this; REB, conclave, factory, fetch, standstill, drain, EE. I play fetch and pass, he plays lotus, emerals, land, and passes back (he was on a mull to 6). My turn I cast EE on 0 and fetch to attempt to blow it up, he responds with mindscensor, I find an island in top 4...I then play standstill shortly, and he never comes back in the game as I maintain control pretty easily.

Game 2, he lets me be on the play...needless to say I was stoked! I open with library, and all blue cards including force and trap and misstep etc etc. He tries getting me off library, at some point he cliques me seeing my hand is really good. He sneaks a Jace in play and a devout witness mid game. I cast EE on 3 killing his dorks clearing the way for factories to kill Jace. I also had an active barb ring in play and bolt in hand. Justing was behind most of the game and I stayed ahead with standstill at some point...

Generally speaking I have been beating bomberman fairly easy. I feel like my deck is the best suited to fight it. I can waste caverns, I have just as much control, and a better draw engine. Last few times I played Justin I have had the upper hand. After sb I bring in 2 chewers for big beats off drain and to nuke his random needle that can randomly stifle my plans. So yeah I can comfortably say I like how my deck matches up against bomberman. Bomberman (especially UW bomberman) really crutches on Jace and top. I have man lands and bolts etc to stop jace. And I can keep top off the table most of the time. Even when I can't stop top my draw engine is just superior to his...



@StanleyAugust - I have tested Notion Thief in URb landstill and I think it's too cute. doesn't do enough against a lot of decks. I perfer 4 Jace every time. a UR shell is always the way to go bc bolts handle creatures and jace. If the deck performs well for you by all means try it out. I want most cards in landstill to maximize there applications against most decks. For this reason I cut Misdirection for Reb. Currently reb does more. Same thing with pierce. Every deck has non creature relevant spells. There are subtle changes I make to landstill every few months bc I see the meta shift. And I have been pretty good at adjusting my decks to fight the current day vintage 

[Pokey]

I must say that your latest version of the deck, Josh, is very hard to beat.  You held true to your word.  Our latest match was not close.

Good job last weekend!

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Thanks buddy, our matches are always fun at the very least! Hope to see you next time Justin! I'll have to be treading carefully next time bc you'll have revenge on your mind haha...

[Tha Gunslinga]

Just won a 9-man event with Landstill.


A red-hot list as always.  I don't miss Crucible in here, I just missed Library, because I never saw it except super-late-game.

[StanleyAugust]

Has anyone tested the new Thespian's Stage / Dark Depths combo in a U/R Landstill shell?

Usually, Landstill doesn't want to play combo, but I think this one is quite different:

1) Thespian's Stage is a pretty good card on its own. It can be a bit clumsy and it definitely takes practice to perfect your skills with this card, but on the other hand it can be very powerful. In one of my games, for instance, I made Stage a copy of my opponent's Library before wasting it in the same turn. That's pretty huge.

2) Dark Depths, while it usually doesn't do much good on its own, is by no means a dead card in Landstill and it serves as an uncounterable win condition on its own. In Landstill it's better on its own than in any other deck.

3) You can play Expedition Map, which is what I've been trying out. Expedition Map allows you to play fewer copies of the combo pieces, and at the same time, it has turned out to be a very good addition to the build, grabbing that Library or Strip Mine you need.

Here's a list for reference. It might be that the number of combo pieces is off, and it might be that a "new" Landstill shell is better. Any thoughts?

Lands and stuff: 23

4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire

Combo pieces: 4

2 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Expedition Map

Counters: 15

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Mental Misstep
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection

Answers and stuff: 9

3 Engineered Explosives
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Broken: 5

4 Landstill
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ancestral Recall

Sideboard: 15

4 Ingot Chewer
2 Goblin Welder
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Bojuka Bog

[A.-1.]

You're right. Landstill doesn't want to play combo.

Thespian's Stage is an awful card on its own, especially early game (It's pretty bad in Shops, too). Using one isolated incident to back your claim isn't helpful.

Dark Depths is un-counterable. Wasteland is a thing. Crucible isn't helping. I fail to see how Dark Depths is better in Landstill than a dedicated Dark Depths/Hexmage list.

Expedition Map is the best card you added, and it's not great.

I'd much rather play the standard, consistent UR list.

[Aaron Patten]

I don't think that combo is a combo.  I think the legend rule causes it to not generate a Merrit Lage token.

[psyburat]

I don't think that combo is a combo.  I think the legend rule causes it to not generate a Merrit Lage token.

The legend rule is being updated for M14.

Source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/248f

[Aaron Patten]

Right.  I had forgotten already.  This combo still seems slow and vulnerable.  Not sure it's right for this shell since landstill is all about being consistent and these two cards are both underpowered on their own.