"The Unbroken" U/R Landstill: The Primer

[TheWhiteDragon]

26 mana ensures you can harass shops mana base as continue to make land drops after that. The room for chain or other bounce spells comes in cutting a jace or cutting a creature removal. I would definitely not cut a mana source in the current meta...

These are subtle changes I make every few months as the meta ever so slightly changes. Landstill is about tweaking the deck and sb to reflect what you expect in the meta...

You said you went from 24 to 26 - I wonder if -1 wouldn't be okay for a cheap, powerful answer like chain of vapor.  25 is still a lot of mana, and those are actual lands, not moxen.  I'd see about -1EE or -1Jace (leaning towards the EE) to fit in 1 disc.

I think with those changes, you wouldn't need to adapt so much to a meta and the deck could win from there without any tweaks.  Just a thought.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

26 mana ensures you can harass shops mana base as continue to make land drops after that. The room for chain or other bounce spells comes in cutting a jace or cutting a creature removal. I would definitely not cut a mana source in the current meta...

These are subtle changes I make every few months as the meta ever so slightly changes. Landstill is about tweaking the deck and sb to reflect what you expect in the meta...

You said you went from 24 to 26 - I wonder if -1 wouldn't be okay for a cheap, powerful answer like chain of vapor.  25 is still a lot of mana, and those are actual lands, not moxen.  I'd see about -1EE or -1Jace (leaning towards the EE) to fit in 1 disc.

I think with those changes, you wouldn't need to adapt so much to a meta and the deck could win from there without any tweaks.  Just a thought.

When I said 24-26...24 mana was probably 3-4 yrs ago, 25 had been around for the past year or 2, and 26 is fairly recent. And when I say mana sources that includes moxen and lotus not only lands. Right now I am at 23 land, ruby, sapphire, and lotus. I found at 25 mana sources you would use the wastes to deny shops mana and then at times not draw more lands fast enough. So I really really like the 26 mana sources main deck. Vs non wasteland decks I was often boarding mountain out to go to 25, but those are the matchups where I want to see business and counters more then making land drops.

As for disk. It can be slow and clunky. I would only run disk in a 3 jace list. I love EE too much. That being said, I really like my current list in the current meta!

[TheWhiteDragon]

26 mana ensures you can harass shops mana base as continue to make land drops after that. The room for chain or other bounce spells comes in cutting a jace or cutting a creature removal. I would definitely not cut a mana source in the current meta...

These are subtle changes I make every few months as the meta ever so slightly changes. Landstill is about tweaking the deck and sb to reflect what you expect in the meta...

You said you went from 24 to 26 - I wonder if -1 wouldn't be okay for a cheap, powerful answer like chain of vapor.  25 is still a lot of mana, and those are actual lands, not moxen.  I'd see about -1EE or -1Jace (leaning towards the EE) to fit in 1 disc.

I think with those changes, you wouldn't need to adapt so much to a meta and the deck could win from there without any tweaks.  Just a thought.

When I said 24-26...24 mana was probably 3-4 yrs ago, 25 had been around for the past year or 2, and 26 is fairly recent. And when I say mana sources that includes moxen and lotus not only lands. Right now I am at 23 land, ruby, sapphire, and lotus. I found at 25 mana sources you would use the wastes to deny shops mana and then at times not draw more lands fast enough. So I really really like the 26 mana sources main deck. Vs non wasteland decks I was often boarding mountain out to go to 25, but those are the matchups where I want to see business and counters more then making land drops.

As for disk. It can be slow and clunky. I would only run disk in a 3 jace list. I love EE too much. That being said, I really like my current list in the current meta!

I agree that disk is slow and clunky at times.  Perhaps it's a better sb card for when you are facing swarms of varied cc.  I could see the value in trimming 1 jace for chain of vapor....or 1 of anything for a chain of vapor.  It gives you that fast answer to the turn 1 bomb you were talking about that you are hoping to counter on turn 1.  Should they power through that tinker, it is a 1cc answer beyond hurkylls, and if they drop turn 1 oath (much more likely) you can chain it and then pierce it perhaps  after you get your land in and a mox?  maybe be a turn closer to EE?  It buys you time if not flat out enabling you to counter it with extra card draws.  On the turns where they just go balls in and crack your standstill (but you are tapped out for casting it), then you can easily have 2 mana to bounce it, then counter it.  Sometimes they don't have the orchard, mox, oath...but island, orchard, oath - and chain gets you one extra turn to drop your landstill on them if you again can't counter.

All a long way of saying CoV can be an invaluable answer that helps with your turn 1 problems (not to mention any later problems and even those pesky enchantments!)

[Stormanimagus]

Has anyone considered bringing back Gush as a natural predator to Landstill? It seems like Gush's draw engine can get online faster and thus they can find more counters faster. If you back that up with a "gro" strategy and/or something techy and new like Deathrite Shaman couldn't that deck just have great game against landstill? I'm imagining some Quirion Dryads in there somewhere as well. Thoughts anyone?

-Storm

[TheWhiteDragon]

Has anyone considered bringing back Gush as a natural predator to Landstill? It seems like Gush's draw engine can get online faster and thus they can find more counters faster. If you back that up with a "gro" strategy and/or something techy and new like Deathrite Shaman couldn't that deck just have great game against landstill? I'm imagining some Quirion Dryads in there somewhere as well. Thoughts anyone?

-Storm

I'm not sure how much of a natural predator gush is.  Gush tends to chain, which puts mindbreak traps online.  Also, I'm not sure if the draw engine is faster.  Getting 1U into play seems easier than 2 islands.  If gush gets big in a meta, I'm sure flusterstorm/REB becomes an easy add for landstill.  The dryads are nice, but EE@2 clears those as well as a fast bolt or dismember.  I think the deathrite shamans are the best card you named, since they can negate crucibles and will deal an unblockable 2 damage a turn easily.  If landstill is burning dryads, they're not killing shamans - or vise versa.  Some gush builds ran lotus cobra before to gain mana advantage.  I don't see how deathrite isn't just better as it disrupts the grave while having the same uncounterable clock (though you can't add mana AND deal 2 in the same turn like cobra.  You also can't add 3 mana in one turn off one fetch like you can with cobra.  It's an idea worth exploring if it can beat other decks too.  I think pyroclasms will see a rise (and certainly in landstill SBs).

[Stormanimagus]

Has anyone considered bringing back Gush as a natural predator to Landstill? It seems like Gush's draw engine can get online faster and thus they can find more counters faster. If you back that up with a "gro" strategy and/or something techy and new like Deathrite Shaman couldn't that deck just have great game against landstill? I'm imagining some Quirion Dryads in there somewhere as well. Thoughts anyone?

-Storm

I'm not sure how much of a natural predator gush is.  Gush tends to chain, which puts mindbreak traps online.  Also, I'm not sure if the draw engine is faster.  Getting 1U into play seems easier than 2 islands.  If gush gets big in a meta, I'm sure flusterstorm/REB becomes an easy add for landstill.  The dryads are nice, but EE@2 clears those as well as a fast bolt or dismember.  I think the deathrite shamans are the best card you named, since they can negate crucibles and will deal an unblockable 2 damage a turn easily.  If landstill is burning dryads, they're not killing shamans - or vise versa.  Some gush builds ran lotus cobra before to gain mana advantage.  I don't see how deathrite isn't just better as it disrupts the grave while having the same uncounterable clock (though you can't add mana AND deal 2 in the same turn like cobra.  You also can't add 3 mana in one turn off one fetch like you can with cobra.  It's an idea worth exploring if it can beat other decks too.  I think pyroclasms will see a rise (and certainly in landstill SBs).

The only problem I'm seeing with D. Shaman at this point is that it is taking over the pre-ordain slot in the deck. Whereas before you could easily run 15 land and expect to see 2 land by turn 2 you now can't reliably get to 2 land on turn 2. I think this may make this version unviable as that is sorta the point of Gush: 2 Islands available on turn 2. I'm not sure how good an idea it would be to run 17-18 land to insure this. I'm inclined to say no.

What intrigued me about this idea though was that Dryad forces them to find an EE/Jace or just lose pretty darn fast. My Gush list would run 4 FoW, 1-2 Misd, 2 Maindeck Spell Pierce, and 2 Sideboard MB Trap of its own. I think that package + like 1 Thrun from the board would position Gush quite well against landstill. Don't forget we are also running Tinker->BSC and Will->go nuts. BUT, beyond that we would be running a couple Snapcasters, 3 Deathrite, 3 Dryad, 3 Trygon and the most robust and broken draw engine of all time. I think that Landstill has been preying on these blue decks that have a later fundamental turn than gush by about 1. Landstill has also been preying on the upswell in Shops lately. I think Gush kept Landstill in check quite nicely in recent years and could do so again. Gro Gush lists are aggro-control-combo and can switch roles pretty easily. Such a deck can often be a nightmare for a deck like Landstill.

Just my 2-cents

-Storm

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

First off a gush deck that you talk about above would run Flusterstorm over trap because you are chaining spells together with gush and that gives more readily protection. Trap is stopping an opponent from going broken...but Flusterstorm is just better in a gush deck. And if u want both you must have Flusterstorm first IMO...

[Guli]

When GW decks, Human decks, or any random bullshit deck like that becomes a part of a real meta game other then a cockatrice meta game I will address the matchup more at that point if I need to. Simple fact is that it's not a real part of any meta game. The little experience I have had playing the matchup I was fine with it...

Call it hubris, arrogance, confidence, idc frankly lol

Could you do a match report of the most recent tournament experience against Mayor Fish.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

When GW decks, Human decks, or any random bullshit deck like that becomes a part of a real meta game other then a cockatrice meta game I will address the matchup more at that point if I need to. Simple fact is that it's not a real part of any meta game. The little experience I have had playing the matchup I was fine with it...

Call it hubris, arrogance, confidence, idc frankly lol

Could you do a match report of the most recent tournament experience against Mayor Fish.

~This was against BrianPK or something. He posts in human thread. I played against him in Rd. 1 of a recent Bloomsburg.

Game 1 my hand was pretty good, and I resolved an early standstill seeing no force of will for stony silence to ensure my EE's stay on line. Game 2 I have a hand of bolt, dismember, standstill, and a bunch of mana. I kill his first dork and play standstill. He draws all of his factories and like 3x waste effects forcing me to pop my own standstill, and at that point on his next turn he played like 4 spells 2 of which I countered and the last one was silence if I remember correctly. The back breaker was him being able to play under my standstill which is totally not how this matchup normally is. I have never seen a GWx fish deck play the full waste suite and man lands. AND a 5c mana base on top of that. I was impressed by how his deck smashed me in a different fashion like I explained. None of the human lists I have played against ever ran that game plan.

Overall I would say in my testing on trice against randoms I have had an above average outing vs the human decks. Maybe like 60/40 or 55/45 in my favor. But the matches are generally pretty close. This was the first time ever playing against someone IRL on a human list. His human pile was deffinitely more suited to fight landstill and less suited to beat a deck lik dredge lol. I don't see human.dec gaining much popularity much like my deck, landstill. They are just not appealing decks to play for the vast majority of the community.

Like I said before if the matchup becomes more of an issue I can make adjustments to fight the deck better. I just don't see it being a big issue moving forward. The only 2 cards I NEED to counter in the matchup are generally teeg and stony. If teeg resolves I can burn it off, but if silence resolves I am in a tough spot. And as I said above I didn't have force of will when it mattered in game 1. And in game 2 he had a game plan to mirror mine which was new and obviously worked out!

Hope this was some good info Guli!

[Stormanimagus]

Yeah, you can be sure that some smattering of Factories and/or mutavaults will be in my next human list going forward. Great innovation Brian!

-Storm

[brianpk80]

Yeah, you can be sure that some smattering of Factories and/or mutavaults will be in my next human list going forward. Great innovation Brian!

-Storm

Thanks Noah. 

I saw some earlier posts in the thread and I should state that my Landstill opponent was not arrogant or unfriendly in person at all.  It was a pleasant match.  The Factories were intended to help out with the Lodestone Golem and Jace situation but clearly they had splash damage v. Landstill.  The usual list I run is more prepared for Dredge in the sideboard but because I had a shipping error, I had to compile everything in a hurry; in fact, the aggravation caused by this shipping error left me without so much mass (Mayors, Rest in Peaces, Meddling Mages, Mindbreak Traps, etc.) that I thought I wouldn't be able to assemble anything but would just visit the store instead.  Friends came through and I compiled it as well as I could under the circumstances. 

In game 1, I had a Noble Hierarch and a Dark Confidant.  He had a Jace w. 4 counters on it so I played a Mayor off a Cavern and had the Exalted Dark Confidant attack into Jace.  He Dismembered it when he realized it was 4/4.  He played Explosives on his turn for 2.  When he passed back, I cast nothing and let the Mayor flip into Howlpack which has a CMC of 0.  He tapped out to play a Jace.  I played Thalia off a Cavern which didn't faze him immediately because of the EE @ 2, but the effect of it meant he couldn't counter Stony Silence.  Eventually, there were multiple 3/3 Wolf tokens in play. 

Game 2 was as he described.  He played a Standstill when I had a Noble Hierarch in play and I drew a lot of Wastelands.  After taking 7-8 from the Noble, I started attacking with an Exalted Mishra's Factory which he broke his own Standstill to Bolt.  He played a Jace next turn but it didn't matter because he was at 4 or so life and I had an overflowing hand of creatures and a lot of mana.  I attacked him next turn instead of the Jace and the match soon ended. 

This doesn't detract from the fact that Landstill is well-designed and competent against many decks, but the points made earlier about it having a rougher match-up with aggro ring true.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Haha everyone deserves a good ass kicking now and then lol! Brian totally spoiled my hopes on winning back to back Bloomsburg events haha.

But in all seriousness like I said, when true aggro style decks become a bigger part of a meta then I will make the appropriate adjustments. I just don't see that happening any time soon. Closest thing to it that has been a real part of a meta game has been noble fish. And I have had pretty good success against that. The human fish matchup hasn't been too bad for my seldom testing against it. But Brian was definitely prepared to give me more problems with his list!

[Guli]

Haha everyone deserves a good ass kicking now and then lol! Brian totally spoiled my hopes on winning back to back Bloomsburg events haha.

But in all seriousness like I said, when true aggro style decks become a bigger part of a meta then I will make the appropriate adjustments. I just don't see that happening any time soon. Closest thing to it that has been a real part of a meta game has been noble fish. And I have had pretty good success against that. The human fish matchup hasn't been too bad for my seldom testing against it. But Brian was definitely prepared to give me more problems with his list!

I think landstill still has the edge, especially the versions that pack 3 bolts and 3 explosives with the Crucibles and Factories. Not to mention the Pyroclasm option post board. But while I think this edge exists, I also think that Human Fish can brutally destroy landstill with a strong hand and a couple of play mistakes or inexperience from the Landstill pilot. The games Landstill will win will be hard and long game, where everything can still go wrong.

That being said, I think if Human Fish can meta way easier against Landstill, than Landstill can meta against Human Fish. I also wonder how Landstill is suppose to deal with a Geist, something I am testing right now in a sub version with Clerics.

And thanks for the report and insight, it will help greatly!

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

EE on 3 or countering Giest are the only options haha that card can be a headache for sure! A guy in my meta has been playing UW fish and UW landstill with Giest...and it can be a pain haha!

Also I agree with what your saying above Guli...This deck has no free wins, every match is a grind. Weather I feel like I am the favored deck or not, it's always a grind. Like I said a few pages back (arguing with some jerk) I always feel in the advantage against every deck I face. Other people may not feel the same bc they aren't as good at piloting landstill or aren't used to grinding out every single match. But to me, I'm used to that! I have been playing this archetype for like 6+ yrs in multiple archetypes. But again I can not stress more, every match is a grind and subtle mistakes are exaggerated with this deck and will ultimately result in a loss.

Thanks for the easy talkin and conversations from the human fish followers! 

[credmond]

Yup, I am the jerk who pointed out that your latest sideboard had a weakness to aggro and you proceeded to prove my point at your latest tourney. I am such a jerk. 

I am a landstill player and love the deck but I know that good aggro by good pilots can be a tough matchup and I don't laugh off the match-up. Usually some measure of pyroclasms in the side is required to regain the edge in the matchup. Which opens up the earlier point I made . . .  the landstill sideboard starts to get spread thin if it has to fight dredge + shops + combo + blue + aggro. If your local meta doesn't have one or more of those represented then you can really reap the benefits with a focused set of answers in your sb, which it sounds like you are usually able to do and that is great. But if all of those are represented you can get nailed by surprise by the one that you are soft to (which is what happened to you at your latest tourney). Explosives goes a long way to giving the landstill pilot a flexible suite of answers but even that has its limits.

Predictable metas are good for landstill. Wide-open metas are trickier.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Yeah true aggro hasn't really ever been a big part of any meta I play in. I played against a random at this event and he was well suited to beat me. My testing vs guys on cockatrice in the past has been even or me in advantage. The recent match went in favor of human.dec. It happens I can't win em' all.

Similar to last years Gencon when I was 3-0 vs dredge then in my "win and in" round into the top 8 I lose to a dredge pilot that didn't even know what michra's factory did lol. You will eventually lose to a deck in which you see as a good or favorable matchup...it is what it is.

[brianpk80]

I played against a random at this event and he was well suited to beat me.

Every human being is special.  There are no "randoms." 

[serracollector]

I was playing around with a UW landstill variant, and found a neat card I been testing to varied success. 



Its instant, 1 cc, and can bring back:

EE
Crucible
Standstill


The card has helped me to make comebacks with EE vs w/e is on the board, or has helped by bring Standstill back, RIGHT after it gets popped to either recast it during my turn, or to pitch to FOW/MisD.

I was wondering if anyone else has tested this card, and/or is going to test it, and thoughts?

[Ten-Ten]

I was playing around with a UW landstill variant, and found a neat card I been testing to varied success. 



Its instant, 1 cc, and can bring back:

EE
Crucible
Standstill


The card has helped me to make comebacks with EE vs w/e is on the board, or has helped by bring Standstill back, RIGHT after it gets popped to either recast it during my turn, or to pitch to FOW/MisD.

I was wondering if anyone else has tested this card, and/or is going to test it, and thoughts?

I went with Noxious revival, in both u/r and u/w standstill, instead of Argivian Find since you open yourself up to Mental Misstep either way. This way at least you didnt spend mana to cast.
Though it can be a turn slower, this way you can get any card back

That said, I left it out completely since I have no need for it and helped in no particular match-up. at least not for me.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I have messed around with academy ruins a while back. It was cute but almost too cute. But if I wanted more EE I add the 4th copy. I never really need crucible back enough to play the card above.

Cool idea never the less haha. IMO I would run ruins before this card!

[John Cox]

You could get back lotus and play a turn one jace + standstill!

[serracollector]

Yea the fact Argivian returns it to your hand is amazing.  Also if your playing the white variant with SFM this also returns Batterskull/SoFi/Jitte or w/e else back as well.  I like bringing back Lotus as well, but then who doesn't?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

The problem is when you have a controlly hand with no artifact or in a case where you can't or don't want to bring standstill back to recast this card becomes dead. Where as ruins is not dead bc its  land that produces mana and furthers your board position which I believe is more along the lines of what this deck would rather do...

If you are having success with the card be my guest haha

[Patoon]

Enlightened tutor or another Enlightened tutor is probably a more versatile in a list with white.

[Samoht]

Enlightened tutor or another Enlightened tutor is probably a more versatile in a list with white.

Except that ET is card disadvantage while the mentioned card is parity. 

[credmond]

The card doesn't really fit in UR Landstill at all (even URw Landstill) and I think a thread should be started for UW Landstill so this card (Argivian Find) could be discussed in that context. The card has interesting possibilities and interactions with cards like SFM and even Humility but that's a whole different design space than UR Landstill.

UW Landstill is a very different breed than UR Landstill.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Yeah I agree this is what I would say is a U/R or U/R/x thread primarily. The UW variants are quite different as Credmond just said!

[serracollector]

Fair enough.  The variant I am working with has 2 E. Tutor, and 2 Argivian Find, but I only run 2 EE, so...ya. lol.  But I run geist over SFM personally, not a fan of equips.  Thats fine, maybe after I try my UW variant at a tourney or 2 I will post about it.  Thanks guys.

[desolutionist]

Brian isn't an ordinary Fish player.  He pioneered Oath of Ghouls.  No shame in losing to this man.

[RenatoAmado]

Buddies,

Any chance to 'Ral Zarek', the new Planewalker, sees play in UR Landstill?