"The Unbroken" U/R Landstill: The Primer

[Shax]

This deck is overall insane. I'm pretty sure it is the best deck in the format. Think I am going to start playing it. Is there any single cards, or particular strategies that are particularly disruptive or hard to combat?

Yeah, on the best deck in the format part. Just because 1 person is having success with a deck in multiples tourneys. (AKA John Jones with Turbo Tezzerett) Does not make it the best deck in the format. The best deck in the Vintage Format really depends on what it has inside the 75 for the metagame at the time. There are usually anywhere from 3-20 cards tailormade for a specific metagame in Vintage. Sometimes I feel it is Dredge, othertimes Shops, Gush etc... Landstill!

Yeah strategies that are hard to beat are any of the main pillers in Vintage if they win the die roll. Be it Shops, Gush, or Dredge. Shops disruptive capabilities can make you lose a match if they lead with Lotus, Shops, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golems etc.
Dredge is very hard to combat games two and three of the match if you do not see a graveyard hate piece in your mulligans or opening seven. Gush is a mixture of both somewhat, but it can also go first turn Tinker into Blightsteel Collosus, cast Time Walk and swing for the win. It can also Time Vault Voltaic Key combo you first turn.  So if your prepared for all of these and feel confident enough to play UR Landstill, a deck that hinges on being able to go into the late game of Vintage.(Past turn 3) You should do pretty good! Trying to win die rolls helps your Mana Drains out, ALOT

One thing oshkoshhaitsyosh is doing to his Landstill list is periodically changing it to a consistant metagame eater. So if you know how to guess correctly on your maindeck choices so you can be less dependable on your Sideboard in matches you will have the extra advantage( in his case with the last list he posted) in counter wars.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I won through a field of heavy Oath yesterday with this:

Benjamin Carp
Team ICBM
8/12/2012
BroodStill

4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mental Misstep
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Steel Sabotage
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
2 Fire/Ice
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory
1 Strip Mine
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Library of Alexandria

SB:
3 Pyroclasm
3 Ingot Chewer
2 Steel Sabotage
2 Energy Flux
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

I took one of Josh's lists and altered a few things.  I cut a couple EEs for Bolts because I was losing to Confidants.  I cut the MisDs and Mindbreaks because they're too narrow for my metagame and I really hated having so many dead maindeck cards vs Shops.  I still have some but it's not as bad.  Snapcasters are in there to flash back counters and burn, and occasionally Recall.  They're great to have as additional beaters.  Flusterstorms are incredible both on their own and with Snapcaster. 

The SB is a lot of Shop hate because that's what I played against last time.  The Cages are a must because they roll Oath pretty hard and they deal with Dredge nicely.  Pyroclasms are against aggro like Fish or White Weenie.  The Ulamog is for Painter, which was a lot of the meta last tournament. 

I feel like this is by far the best deck in the metagame right now.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Flusterstorm is actually more narrow in a deck like landstill compared to trap. I often times trap something on a shops players first turn in game 1. Plus in late game vs any deck trap is a hard counter where as flusterstorm is not. That being said fluster storm makes much more sense in your list with snap casters. Congrats on your win!

Landstill took down a 65 man event in NJ on sunday piloted my Cris Pikula. He was on my style list from what people told me. The deck is awfully good I must say haha

One critique I will have with your list is, you are deffinately not beating the current dredge lists (assuming its a compitent pilot) with that sideboard. Also your game one against oath looks pretty grim. Look forward to seeing you at GenCon if you are going!

[Tha Gunslinga]

Really?  Land a Cage, protect it, Waste the Bazaars?  Chewer kills off Bridges, Clasm kills off tokens, and you're good.  I don't see much Dredge around here, and certainly no competent pilots anymore, but I wouldn't think it would be an issue.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Haha well I can tell you have not done much testing in that match up vs good compitent opponents. The only "real" hate card you have is cage. And the current dredge lists destroy cage very easily (VIA ALL OF THERE anti-HATE CARDS including whispmare). If you are considering this deck for GenCon I reccomend testing against a good dredge pilot. I have done a lot of it and 4 cage is not enough trust me...

[voltron00x]

Wispmare doesn't hit Cage, but the point is still pretty valid, current Dredge lists key off on Cage.  The real problem is the effectiveness of slow Dredging against Landstill, which applies zilch as far as pressure.  That's why the best anti-Dredge strategy is to use 2-3 types of hate cards that stay in play and protect them with the infinite protection spells in the deck.

[A.-1.]

Wispmare doesn't hit Cage, but Josh is probably referring to the fact that you can Evoke it to get Zombie tokens from Bridge.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Whoops I meant to say chewer...but yeah you get the point. 4 Cage will not beat a competent dredge opponent

[Grand Inquisitor]

Landstill was conspicuously missing from GenCon's T8.  I also heard very little anecdotally about people piloting it.

Usually a metagame favorite going absent can be a few things:

(1) Not enough people played it
(2) They knocked each other out, re: bad beats
(3) The metagame adapted
(4) It was overhyped

Anyone there who can inform on any of these?

[Prospero]

Landstill was conspicuously missing from GenCon's T8.  I also heard very little anecdotally about people piloting it.

Usually a metagame favorite going absent can be a few things:

(1) Not enough people played it
(2) They knocked each other out, re: bad beats
(3) The metagame adapted
(4) It was overhyped

Anyone there who can inform on any of these?

I heard about people who played against a lot of Oath and a lot of Landstill, but I didn't see it, really. 

My rounds were:

R1: Shops
R2: Shops
R3: W/G/B Maverick
R4: Dredge
R5: Dredge
R6: Dredge
R7: U/B Agent of Bolas Tezz
R8: Griselbrand Oath

I played in the morning Prelims the day before, and I played against Landstill, RUG Delver, Shops, and a couple of other decks I don't remember.

Josh Potucek played Landstill, I think to a 16th-32nd finish.  I know that Bob Maher and Dave Williams were on Landstill as well, though I don't know how they finished.   

[chrispikula]

Lots and lots of dredge is not a good environment for Landstill.  I'd imagine that was part of the problem. Also there were 187 players in the tourney, and it sounds like about 5 of them were on Landstill. 

[aforce808]

I played Landstill in the Championship and in both prelim events.  Out of all three events, I didn't see the mirror match once.  I encountered Oath and Shops more than anything else.

Doug

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I was 5-1 going into round 7 and faced dredge. Previous to this match I beat it 2 other times on the day. This was a win and in round. We go to game 3 time is called and in those 5 turns I lost as he answered my leyline.

More frustrating was that he didn't even know what factory did...

I ran 4 leyline 3 cage 1 jailer. My hate was sufficient but the power of the deck beat me as he was not a good player. Also I top 8'd the late premil on Thursday only losing to doomsday in the Swiss and losing to it again in the top 8

[The Wolf]

Well, so long fire ice.  The new charm seems like it was printed just for this deck

[vaughnbros]

Well, so long fire ice.  The new charm seems like it was printed just for this deck

Your talking about Izzet charm im assuming



This card seems pretty much just everything you could ask for in vintage.  Its spell pierce, shock against creatures, and faithless looting all at instant speed for 2 mana?  I probably wouldnt hesitate to pack 4 of these into Landstill.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

I dont think standstill wants a weak counterspell, burn spell that cant hit players, and a bad draw spell even if it is all rolled into one card.

[The Wolf]

I dont think standstill wants a weak counterspell, burn spell that cant hit players, and a bad draw spell even if it is all rolled into one card.

Hmm, ok I could buy that.  Do you think it wants a fine counterspell, bun spell that functions almost the same as a card the deck has 2x of MD and a fine draw spell rolled into one?

[Cruel Ultimatum]

I dont think standstill wants a weak counterspell, burn spell that cant hit players, and a bad draw spell even if it is all rolled into one card.

Hmm, ok I could buy that.  Do you think it wants a fine counterspell, bun spell that functions almost the same as a card the deck has 2x of MD and a fine draw spell rolled into one?

Not really mate. The deck plays metagamed high impact narrow cards over weaker catchall cards for a reason. I wouldnt play a grizzly bear that transforms into a runeclaw bear over tarmogoyf either, even though it does have more text.

[vaughnbros]

I wouldnt play a grizzly bear that transforms into a runeclaw bear over tarmogoyf either, even though it does have more text.

This makes little to no sense how a card that would transform from a goyf into a runeclaw bear is relevant to this conversation.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

I wouldnt play a grizzly bear that transforms into a runeclaw bear over tarmogoyf either, even though it does have more text.

This makes little to no sense how a card that would transform from a goyf into a runeclaw bear is relevant to this conversation.

I think you misread what I wrote, but it was a joke, concentrate on the first part of the post for the important part.

[boggyb]

Not really mate. The deck plays metagamed high impact narrow cards over weaker catchall cards for a reason. I wouldnt play a grizzly bear that transforms into a runeclaw bear over tarmogoyf either, even though it does have more text.

..? Landstill plays two Fire // Ice maindeck, usually, which is the definition of a 'weak catchall' card. This does a lot of the same thing, and potentially more that the deck wants to do. It's potentially a lot better vs shops, for example, too, because it digs for answers better and can occasionally find a worthwhile spell to counter on turns 2-3 on the play. Dodges Misstep, too, which is excellent (misstep is the reason pierce sucks now). Color requirements make it less attractive though. But it's worth exploring for sure.

[vaughnbros]

I wouldnt play a grizzly bear that transforms into a runeclaw bear over tarmogoyf either, even though it does have more text.

This makes little to no sense how a card that would transform from a goyf into a runeclaw bear is relevant to this conversation.

I think you misread what I wrote, but it was a joke, concentrate on the first part of the post for the important part.

Your right i did misread it because your comment was nonsensical.  Not a very good joke.

Not really mate. The deck plays metagamed high impact narrow cards over weaker catchall cards for a reason.

How many cards in landstill really qualify as not catch alls?  flusterstorm, misstep and reb are the only cards that I've seen main deck that dont do something in every match up.  I'm pretty sure engineered explosives is much more of a catch all then the previous null rod was.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Well this is a funny convo we have going on here...I actually looked at the spoiler this morning and my immediate thought was this card will be a 1 of at the very least in landstill.

This card will be played for one main reason. And that reason is because this card is NOT narrow. It has multiple uses which is great in a deck like landstill. Null rod and engineered explosives are great in a deck like landstill, for a few reasons. Null rod is card advantage in terms as 1 null rod shuts off at the very least 8 cards in a power vintage deck (excluding fish style decks). And engineered explosives is card advantage in a similar way as it often time eats a few moxen, or bills a bob, or other things played in vintage. Explosives is a very diverse card so its great in a deck like landstill. Finally a card like fire/ice in landstill decks is another card that is great at doing a couple things in 1 card. The more cards like this in a deck like landstill the better the deck will be. The new charm is very similar to fire/ice but almost better in a way. I will be testing this card.

So I will go ahead and say on record, this card is playable in landstill without a doubt...I will not go as far as saying this should be a 4 of but it should see play in this archetype

[The Wolf]

I'm pretty sure that kid was just trolling the thread.  I'm very interested to see how this card functions in the deck.  I've been playing the EE version of the deck at the cambridge local event for the past few months and had a lot of success with it.  My list is very meta tuned to the insane amout of contorl that was showing up when the event first started,  but I feel like this card would fit in great.  Fire / Ice had been pretty weak for me all around, and I had been considering cutting it for either Bolts or Lava Dart.  This card pretty much fixes all the complaints I had about fire / ice and should be at least a 2x in my build. 

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Yes. The card is a little more color intensive but I am fine with squeezing in another colored source or axing library. This card is excellent...

[Cruel Ultimatum]

The reason that I think this card is worse then fire/ice is because fire/ice can easily be a blowout. Have you ever had your opponent play a library on the play and you go land mox ice it on their upkeep? Have you ever killed two x/1s with fire/ice? Have you ever killed an x/1 and dealt one to them, so they couldn’t misdirect it? Have you ever killed a jace after attacking it with a factory? Ice an early tinker>blightsteel so you get another turn to land jace or draw a bounce spell.

I know that last one is going to draw some rebuttal, like well you just counter the tinker with the first mode HURR DURR. But, your mana is going to be limited, so assuming you do have UR open, you will most likely also have UU open, so chances are you will have drain, REB, or be tapped out from the standstill you cast on your turn. So there is only a ~20% chance that you will even have the mana available to play izzet charm in this scenario.

Does izzet charm do any of that? No. So what does it do? It is an overcosted everything. If this has a place in the deck, I don’t see how you can not be playing brainstorm.

[vaughnbros]

The reason that I think this card is worse then fire/ice is because fire/ice can easily be a blowout.     

This is like making the argument that misdirection is better than force because sometimes I get to live the dream and misdirect their ancestral.  When evaluating a card you have to go by what the expected effect of the card is not just sometimes its a blow out so its better, because sometimes its also a 2 mana cycling spell.   

Have you ever had your opponent play a library on the play and you go land mox ice it on their upkeep?

Have you ever made your opponent force something or waste landed their library? This is not some unique role that ice plays in this deck.

Have you ever killed two x/1s with fire/ice?

Again this is variance from the norm.  Are you really going to sit there a turn with their bob/delver on the table so you have a chance for them to play a second one?

Have you ever killed an x/1 and dealt one to them, so they couldn’t misdirect it?

How many of your opponents are really playing misdirection? The only match up that's really running multiple misdirection is the mirror.  On top of this it can only be misdirected to creatures unless you have snapcaster out this point is irrelevant and not every build even runs snapcaster.  Theres probably equally as many situations where I have to deal 2 damage to something with fire and they can misdirect it to my face, whereas they can't misdirect my izzet charm.

Have you ever killed a jace after attacking it with a factory?  Ice an early tinker>blightsteel so you get another turn to land jace or draw a bounce spell.

This spell can counter both Jace and Tinker.  Saving you a lot of resources trying to scramble to get them off the table.

I know that last one is going to draw some rebuttal, like well you just counter the tinker with the first mode HURR DURR. But, your mana is going to be limited, so assuming you do have UR open, you will most likely also have UU open, so chances are you will have drain, REB, or be tapped out from the standstill you cast on your turn. So there is only a ~20% chance that you will even have the mana available to play izzet charm in this scenario.

These events are not mutually exclusive so there isn't really calculating 20% here.  What if I want to save my drain for their goyf? Or if I want to save my REB counter protect my Jace?  And I dont think a good landstill player would tap out for standstill when they have 0 answers to their opponent tinkering in their hand.

So what does it do? It is an overcosted everything. If this has a place in the deck,

Is it over costed in terms of its more expensive than shock yeh, but for its versatility absolutely not.  Fire is also over costed compared to forked bolt. 

Since you just barraged us with a bunch of questions about izzet charm ill ask you some about fire//ice.  What do you do when your opponent casts ancestral?  When your opponent casts vault/key?  When your opponent casts yawg will? What about oath?  Or even a sphere effect?  A chalice at 2? I could go on like this, but I think you should get the point.

I don’t see how you can not be playing brainstorm.

I think this is a completely different discussion altogether.  I think Josh is probably a better one to answer this, but I'd guess its because you only have 4 shuffle effects which greatly reduces brainstorms power level and also similar to the exclusion of mox ruby it doesnt provide immediate action for when standstill breaks.

[The Wolf]

Have you ever had your opponent play a library on the play and you go land mox ice it on their upkeep? - Nope, this deck runs 2 moxes and most decks don't play library.

Have you ever killed two x/1s with fire/ice? - Yes, I have blow out a bad player with a card they didn't know was in the deck I was playing.  This will not happen in a top 8 against anyone good.

Have you ever killed an x/1 and dealt one to them, so they couldn’t misdirect it? - No, what decks run Mis-D and creatures?

Have you ever killed a jace after attacking it with a factory? - Yes, Fire Ice is better in this situation

Ice an early tinker>blightsteel so you get another turn to land jace or draw a bounce spell. - You dig 2 cards deeper with charm to find the jace or bounce spell.  Also, like you said, you can counter the spell.  The only situation where this is better is if jace is the 2nd card on top ofyour deck and you have no mana up with they tinker.

[shrewarmies]

With many dredge lists forgoing the Dread return package in favour of more hate in the main, how do you guys feel about Tabernacle in the SB for Dredge and Critter matchups alongside other hate cards? Dredge has no answers to this (besides angel which does not see much play) Critters will probably have wastes for it but should at least be a big enough stumbling block for us to gain control of the game, especially with crucibles.

[Jblaze4lif]

What's the general consensus about Snapcaster Mage?  I think he can be good if we drop the misdirections, and add a few lightning bolts and a Brainstorm main. This will improve the Workshop matchup but hurt the Oath matchup.

I like the list above with 2 EE vs 3 with Snapcaster.