TMD Online Invitational II - Community vs. Ringers

[Marske]

@Troy, boggyb,
I'm pretty sure the number doesn't change when adding / changing cards in a certain decklist. So how is this honest again?

[Prospero]

If this is on a weekend, I'd like to join.

Your match is organized between you and your opponent - I'm going to put you in and hopefully you'll be able to schedule a time on the weekend with your opponent.  If not, please let me know.

[Prospero]

While I appreciate the concept, and can understand how it could be put to good use in the future, part of the premise behind the TMD Online Invitational is to generate content and discussion on this website.  If those who participate are asked to post their decklists and a quick recap after the first round of the event, they'll be doing just that.  

For the two who qualify for the eight man event, I'm not going to require you to play the same list that you played during the community end of the tournament, so there's no worry about playing with a handicap.  It's possible that the ringers will know what general archetype you're on, but that's really no different than a tournament for most of us.  If I sat down to play Rich or Steve right now, I'd put them on Gush.  And if you sat across from me, you'd know I'm on a Shop brew.

I've decided not to use this tournament towards the Vintage Rankings, but I will consider using it for the third iteration of this event.  One more day till registration closes!

The Participants:

Community

1.   Meddling Mike
2.   Serracollector
3.   Nataz
4.   Joblin Velder
5.   Troy Costisick
6.   BoggyB
7.   JPFunk86
8.   DubDub
9.   Daenyth
10.   Darkenslight
11.   Stormanimagus
12.   Commandant
13.   Iamfishman
14.   Diopter
15.   Cruel Ultimatum
16.   Credmond
17.   TD
18.   Quicksilvervii
19.   Onslaught
20.   Grand Inquisitor
21.   Ambivalent Duck
22.   Yukon Cornelius
23.   Nightmare1016   

Ringers

1.   Rich Shay
2.   Rich Mattiuzzo
3.   Mark Hornung
4.   Joe Brown
5.   Shawn Anthony
6.   Steve Menendian

[diopter]

So yall are gonna know what I use to steamroll you. Cool.

[Daenyth]

@Troy, boggyb,
I'm pretty sure the number doesn't change when adding / changing cards in a certain decklist. So how is this honest again?

Unless it's been changed since the last version, decks stored on the server are immutable.

[Troy_Costisick]

@Troy, boggyb,
I'm pretty sure the number doesn't change when adding / changing cards in a certain decklist. So how is this honest again?

When you resave it, it gets a different number.  The point of uploading it to the server is so that TO's can use it as a way to assure people are using the same decks.

[Slayn001]

Why are people complaining about having to post deck lists ?

[Marske]

@Troy, boggyb,
I'm pretty sure the number doesn't change when adding / changing cards in a certain decklist. So how is this honest again?

Unless it's been changed since the last version, decks stored on the server are immutable.

@Troy, boggyb,
I'm pretty sure the number doesn't change when adding / changing cards in a certain decklist. So how is this honest again?

When you resave it, it gets a different number.  The point of uploading it to the server is so that TO's can use it as a way to assure people are using the same decks.

So I'm definitely not able to participate this way .... I'm not as indepth regarding the code as I used to be, seeing as I have not worked on the project in some while now.

Why are people complaining about having to post deck lists ?

Because they always need something to bitch about

@Prospero,
Got room for another ringer?

[Prospero]

@Troy, boggyb,
I'm pretty sure the number doesn't change when adding / changing cards in a certain decklist. So how is this honest again?

Unless it's been changed since the last version, decks stored on the server are immutable.

@Troy, boggyb,
I'm pretty sure the number doesn't change when adding / changing cards in a certain decklist. So how is this honest again?

When you resave it, it gets a different number.  The point of uploading it to the server is so that TO's can use it as a way to assure people are using the same decks.

So I'm definitely not able to participate this way .... I'm not as indepth regarding the code as I used to be, seeing as I have not worked on the project in some while now.

Why are people complaining about having to post deck lists ?

Because they always need something to bitch about

@Prospero,
Got room for another ringer?

Marius, I'd obviously like to have you as a ringer for future events, but I'm out of space.  You're more than welcome to play, though you'd be stuck on the Community end of the event this time around.  I can offer you a spot as a ringer (along with Grand Inquisitor, who is stuck in the same situation) in the next event though.

Would you like to play?

[AmbivalentDuck]

@Troy, boggyb,
I'm pretty sure the number doesn't change when adding / changing cards in a certain decklist. So how is this honest again?

After round 1, you have to reveal your entire library after each game would work.

That said, a better solution would be a cockatrice dev (like you) quickly adding a feature to hash the list about to be played and display its sb status at the start of each game.

[Klep]

I am really excited about this event. I would strongly encourage those who can to try and record their matches.  There's a lot to be learned from real-time commentary, and it would create a bunch of great, dynamic content for the site.

[boggyb]

@Troy, boggyb,
I'm pretty sure the number doesn't change when adding / changing cards in a certain decklist. So how is this honest again?

After round 1, you have to reveal your entire library after each game would work.

That said, a better solution would be a cockatrice dev (like you) quickly adding a feature to hash the list about to be played and display its sb status at the start of each game.

It does that already,  at least on my version. The number changes when you add cards, and is consistent for each particular deck list -- so for example, if you have a deck list with just one island in it, it looks like this:



..add an island and it looks like this:



and if you remove the one you just added, it'll go back to the first number.

Then when you start a game, it reports those hashes in the game log window:



Anyways, just food for thought . I wasn't complaining at all, just an idea.

[Teps]

I'd be down for playing Nick.

[Stormanimagus]

Hey all!

I know that Meddling Mage posted some links to tutorials about how to make good videos of your matches, but I'm finding the software to not work on the mac. Is there software out there that is:

1. Free
2. Works for the Mac
3. Isn't crappy

that I I could use to make videos with narration of my matches? Could someone smarter with computers be kind enough to walk me through this process? Thanks in advance.

-Storm

[Meddling Mike]

Hey all!

I know that Meddling Mage posted some links to tutorials about how to make good videos of your matches, but I'm finding the software to not work on the mac. Is there software out there that is:

1. Free
2. Works for the Mac
3. Isn't crappy

that I I could use to make videos with narration of my matches? Could someone smarter with computers be kind enough to walk me through this process? Thanks in advance.

-Storm

I have been told that it's out there, but I am not familiar with it not owning a Mac.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It does that already,  at least on my version. The number changes when you add cards, and is consistent for each particular deck list
and if you remove the one you just added, it'll go back to the first number.
...
Then when you start a game, it reports those hashes in the game log window:

Guess I need to update.  Does this also address SB-ing status?

[boggyb]

Hmm by 'sb-ing status' do you mean, does the hash update with the sideboard? If so, yes, it does. Basically it hashes your deck file and spits out the last 8 characters of it. (For those who are curious what a hash is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_function)

I have Cockatrice version 0.20111113 -- I thought you were required to have it in order to connect to the cockatrice.de servers? Anyways yeah I guess update if this isn't showing up on your version (maybe it's a mac-only thing right now?)

[boggyb]

Hey all!

I know that Meddling Mage posted some links to tutorials about how to make good videos of your matches, but I'm finding the software to not work on the mac. Is there software out there that is:

1. Free
2. Works for the Mac
3. Isn't crappy

that I I could use to make videos with narration of my matches? Could someone smarter with computers be kind enough to walk me through this process? Thanks in advance.

-Storm

Yeah man Quicktime does this for free! And does a great job of it.

Open Quicktime.
Go File -> New Screen Recording
Click the little arrow drop-down thing on the right of the small window that appears.
Click 'built-in microphone' for your microphone setting
Hit record

At least that's the menu set up on my computer, a MacBook Air with OS 10.6.8 w/ Quicktime 10.0. If that doesn't work for you, google around a bit or PM me. The files it generates are pretty big I think... if YouTube won't accept them (does it have strict size limits?) I bet you could convert it with MPEG Streamclip.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Hmm by 'sb-ing status' do you mean, does the hash update with the sideboard? If so, yes, it does. Basically it hashes your deck file and spits out the last 8 characters of it. (For those who are curious what a hash is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_function)

I have Cockatrice version 0.20111113 -- I thought you were required to have it in order to connect to the cockatrice.de servers? Anyways yeah I guess update if this isn't showing up on your version (maybe it's a mac-only thing right now?)

That's actually awful if true.  Ie. It's round 2: I'm on ______ with an Oath transform.  By loading my deck in another cockatrice window, you can figure out fairly easily if I've used my transformational sideboard since the hash would tell you my current deck configuration (if indirectly).  

It's better to hash the maindeck + sb together, report that, and then report "SB" if (a card has been moved in/out of the sb since the deck was loaded OR the deck is not the maindeck).  That gives me the ability to claim that I've sideboarded even when I haven't, but not the opportunity to report no sb when I have.  This assures that the maindeck is present in all game 1s and that the deck+sb doesn't change between rounds.

[boggyb]

Wait what? I think I misspoke -- it hashes your whole deck, all 75 cards, and then just gives that same number no matter what sideboarding you do. The hash is just based on the deck file, not on any sideboarding. So two identical deck lists will give identical hashes, even if on different computers. Also note that if you have two deck files, identical except one has 3x Tarmogoyf in its main deck, one has 3x Tarmogoyf in its sideboard, it'll give different hashes -- ie it looks at the main deck/sideboard distinction as well as card numbers and values. Also it doesn't even report the hash in between games, only when you first load the deck (there would be no point -- the value would be the same).

edit: Oh I see, you were wondering if the hash changes between games, but I thought you were asking if it changes if you modify it in the deck editor. No, it doesn't change between games, no matter the sideboarding.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Wait what? I think I misspoke -- it hashes your whole deck, all 75 cards, and then just gives that same number no matter what sideboarding you do. The hash is just based on the deck file, not on any sideboarding. So two identical deck lists will give identical hashes, even if on different computers. Also note that if you have two deck files, identical except one has 3x Tarmogoyf in its main deck, one has 3x Tarmogoyf in its sideboard, it'll give different hashes -- ie it looks at the main deck/sideboard distinction as well as card numbers and values. Also it doesn't even report the hash in between games, only when you first load the deck (there would be no point -- the value would be the same).

That still leaves the problem of g1 sideboarding.  Ie. Adjusting the number of a card main vs side, but not having obvious cues like having a card g1 that isn't present in any number in the maindeck.

Ie. Cut Ponder, add Hurkyl's #2 vs Workshops.  Very difficult to detect in a normal game.

[boggyb]

Yeah Cockatrice doesn't report sideboarding, unfortunately . One of the reasons I was thinkin it might be better to not report deck lists until after the tournament's over.

Also note that Cockatrice allows you to have a sideboard larger than 15 cards, so somebody could take advantage of that somehow. That sounds like a reason to have the decklists posted before the end of the tournament. (Of course we could all just post our deck files and their associated hashes, and the TO could load them up and confirm that the two values matched in every case.)

[The Noble]

If there's still room i would like to get in on this

[quicksilvervii]

Hey all!

I know that Meddling Mage posted some links to tutorials about how to make good videos of your matches, but I'm finding the software to not work on the mac. Is there software out there that is:

1. Free
2. Works for the Mac
3. Isn't crappy

that I I could use to make videos with narration of my matches? Could someone smarter with computers be kind enough to walk me through this process? Thanks in advance.

-Storm

Which version of OS X are you running?  Quicktime X does screen recording.

[Daenyth]

Apart for game 1 sideboarding, the sideboard size would be fine because the lists would be published afterwards - The hash could be verified at that time.


I guess one method to handle game 1 sideboarding is to have the TO collect deck lists before round 1, then have the game set to have spectators be able to view hands, have spectators require a password so that only the TO can join, then have each player bring their sideboard to hand before drawing, then put it back into their sideboard.

That's a little involved though... Is it really a big deal to rely on the honor system here? If the matches are recorded and specs can see hands, it would be fairly easy to spot someone drawing a card that they shouldn't have. Then there's the problem of specs PMing hand contents to the player...

The main problem is that the client shouldn't tell you if your opponent has sideboarded or not - think Minus 6. Telling your opponent that you're on the same 60 cards you used game 1 would be backbreaking...

[Prospero]

The Noble has signed up, leaving the Community tally currently looking like this:

Community

1.   Meddling Mike
2.   Serracollector
3.   Nataz
4.   Joblin Velder
5.   Troy Costisick
6.   BoggyB
7.   JPFunk86
8.   DubDub
9.   Daenyth
10.   Darkenslight
11.   Stormanimagus
12.   Commandant
13.   Iamfishman
14.   Diopter
15.   Cruel Ultimatum
16.   Credmond
17.   TD
18.   Quicksilvervii
19.   Onslaught
20.   Grand Inquisitor
21.    Ambivalent Duck
22.    The Noble

[diopter]

I think we should just post our lists.

[Bibendum]

The Noble has signed up, leaving the Community tally currently looking like this:

Community

1.   Meddling Mike
2.   Serracollector
3.   Nataz
4.   Joblin Velder
5.   Troy Costisick
6.   BoggyB
7.   JPFunk86
8.   DubDub
9.   Daenyth
10.   Darkenslight
11.   Stormanimagus
12.   Commandant
13.   Iamfishman
14.   Diopter
15.   Cruel Ultimatum
16.   Credmond
17.   TD
18.   Quicksilvervii
19.   Onslaught
20.   Grand Inquisitor
21.    Ambivalent Duck
22.    The Noble

dunno if people dropped out but we had 23 added someone and are down to 22. Not sure what happened there

[Nefarias]

I think we should just post our lists.

I'm not playing so take this for what you will but I agree, if only because this thread got really boring really quickly once people started talking about the minutiae of Cockatrice.

[Stormanimagus]

Hey all!

I know that Meddling Mage posted some links to tutorials about how to make good videos of your matches, but I'm finding the software to not work on the mac. Is there software out there that is:

1. Free
2. Works for the Mac
3. Isn't crappy

that I I could use to make videos with narration of my matches? Could someone smarter with computers be kind enough to walk me through this process? Thanks in advance.

-Storm

Which version of OS X are you running?  Quicktime X does screen recording.

I am on Mac OS 10.6.8 and own QuickTime Player 10.0 (128). I'll give what Meddling Mage said a shot. Thanks!

-Storm

Note: I justed tested Screen Recording for a solitaire match, but I could not get any audio to work. Ideas?

Note: NVM. Got it to work