Merfolk

[BaronSengir]

Just looking for some suggestions on this build. Thanks all.

Merfolk!  

Lands (18):
10x Island
3x Mutavault
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland

Creatures (19):
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergil Adept
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Merrow Reejerey
3x Cold-Eyed Selkie

Spells (17):
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
2x Standstill
1x Mystical Tutor
1X Hurkyl's Recall
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk   

Artifacts (6):
4x Null Rod
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire   

Sideboard:
2x Dismember
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Thada Adel, Acquisitor
2x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3x Hibernation
3x Stifle

[xouman]

Steel sabotage is the one of the best cards against MUD playing mono blue. I'd play thada in the main, since it banishes robot and vault (biggest troubles for you against most than 50% of the field). If you expect some aggro in your meta, make place for Jittes in the sideboard (Kira is not so useful in Vintage as it's in legacy). If there is lot of combo in your meta, rootwater thief is ok (though not as good as thada probably). Stifle in the sideboard is so-so: if you want it to stop storm, play trickbind or mindbreak trap instead.

And i'd like to try ghost quarter in the sb. Against MUD and Ichorid is nuts, but I haven't tested it yet.

[Prospero]

I could be wrong, but I'd imagine that you really do want Aether Vials in this style of deck.  They seem great at screwing up blocks and coming in for additional damage.  While Null Rod is powerful, I don't know that it does what you want it to do at the moment.

[credmond]

You should compare your build with this build that took 2nd place in a large tournament.

2nd - Miguel Angel Rodríguez - Mono Blue Fish
Maindeck:
2 Flooded Strand
8 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Sage of Epityr
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Back to Basics
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Null Rod
1 Spell Pierce
1 Time Walk
Sideboard:
1 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Null Rod
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell Snare
3 Steel Sabotage
1 Tormod's Crypt

In particular I would take note of the disruption suite (flusterstorm, mental misstep, and mindbreak trap vs your daze and spell pierce). I think this deck's disruption suite is a strict upgrade over yours and better able to handle the fully powered deck. At the very least you should consider porting the disruption over.

Also his deck has nice built in answers to blightsteel in the form of bouncers. Plus, snapcaster is golden and missing in your deck.

[BaronSengir]

I'm a little confused by Mindbreak Trap. So basically it would be useful in a counter war? Also, why does he have so much fetch land in a mono blue deck?

[BlackVise]

I'm a little confused by Mindbreak Trap. So basically it would be useful in a counter war? Also, why does he have so much fetch land in a mono blue deck?

Mindbreak Trap does have that use, yes, and it takes care of Tendrils of Agony nicely too.

The fetch lands, as well as allowing you to fix your mana in multicolored decks, allow you to thin your deck so that there is less chance of drawing land when you need another card.

[credmond]

Yup. It's awesome in counter wars. As a fish player you can't afford to lose those. A lost counter war is usually game over for you.

Fetches are used to thin the deck so the ninjas (or in your build standstill) draw business spells rather than land.

[policehq]

Yup. It's awesome in counter wars. As a fish player you can't afford to lose those. A lost counter war is usually game over for you.

Fetches are used to thin the deck so the ninjas (or in your build standstill) draw business spells rather than land.

That's a minor issue, but they also help when your opponent has a Strip Mine in their deck (or graveyard, and a Crucible of Worlds). Having a fetch in play buys you a turn.

[credmond]

It could also be pointed out that the deck I posted has brainstorm (that it can reuse with snapcasters) and 2 jaces, so those fetches can be used to turn brainstorms into ancestrals.

[MaximumCDawg]

Yes, the deck thinning ability of fetchlands is really pretty minimal.  The free shuffle - particularly with 4x Sage of Epityr - is awesome, though.

There was a merfolk list posted here awhile ago that ran Key-Vault, and would "go off" by using Merrow Rejerry to untap vault and get extra turns on the way to kill.  If you must use the little fish men, I think that's an interaction you need.  And once you have vault, Vial seems pretty good.  I agree that Daze can go in favor of Mindbreak Trap / Force / Misstep being your t1 free counter after a Vial.

[JuzamDjinn]

I played merfolks in Vintage in 2010... did quite okay with it considering the low powerlevel.

1) Play 4 Energy Flux in the side (single handedly wins MUD matchups)
2) Play 2 Mental Misstep (Branstorm, Ritual, Voltaic Key, Swords, jada jada...)
3) Drop Kira (It's not worth it considering you will not meet Zoo in Vintage)
4) Drop Dismember (Your creatures are bigger an

[Bill Copes]

I'm a little confused by Mindbreak Trap. So basically it would be useful in a counter war? Also, why does he have so much fetch land in a mono blue deck?

Mindbreak Trap does have that use, yes, and it takes care of Tendrils of Agony nicely too.

Not just this, but there are many scenarios where your opponent will meet your trap requirements just by dropping a mox and playing an innocuous spell, like preordain, before trying to do something threatening.

[BaronSengir]

I'm a little confused by Mindbreak Trap. So basically it would be useful in a counter war? Also, why does he have so much fetch land in a mono blue deck?

Mindbreak Trap does have that use, yes, and it takes care of Tendrils of Agony nicely too.

Not just this, but there are many scenarios where your opponent will meet your trap requirements just by dropping a mox and playing an innocuous spell, like preordain, before trying to do something threatening.

So basically if they cast three or more spells, I can cast the trap for free and exile all of them even after all but the last spell have resolved?

[bakofried]

Ah, no, in that case it is *just* a free counterspell at no cost. I too am interested in building Merfolk for Vintage; I have a fair bit of experience playing it Legacy. I do not know how the deck would change for vintage, beyond the adoption of Recall, walk, Mox and Lotus. I know that in Legacy, Snapcaster Mage in Merfolk is considered quite the poor choice, due to the lack of real targets; I'm wondering if that holds true here.

[MaximumCDawg]

Well, your biggest difference between Legacy and Vintage is the need to be able to interact strongly on turn 1, and the need to effectively deal with: Dredge in general,   Tinker->Blightsteel, Yawgwill->Tendrils (or anything really), Workshop in general, and explosive openings in general.  Beyond that, you tune the deck to the meta.  The biggest difference in the Vintage and Legacy metas from merfolks' point of view is that there are relatively few competing aggro decks, and so minimal creature removal in Vintage.  You're very likely to run into bounce (Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth) or sacrifice effects (Diabolic Edict) and, out of the sideboard you might see Lightning Bolt, Pyroclasm, or Darkblast. 

So, you know, build accordingly.

[bakofried]

So, for a disruption suite, it seems that one should start with
4 Force of Will
2-4 Mental Misstep
0-4 Daze
0-2 Spell Pierce
0-2 Flusterstorm
All pending the meta you expect, of course. Removal in Legacy is typically Dismember; however, as your creatures will more often than not outsize or evade opposing creatures, perhaps up to 3 copies of Echoing Truth? It's simply very utilitarian. Furthermore, i'd rather play Null Rod than Aether Vial in this format. The disruption Rod offers (in conjunction with a full set of Wastes +1 Strip) seems far more potent than the tempo gains of Vial.

[BlackVise]

Furthermore, i'd rather play Null Rod than Aether Vial in this format. The disruption Rod offers (in conjunction with a full set of Wastes +1 Strip) seems far more potent than the tempo gains of Vial.

Aether Vial is brilliant with Standstill, though, but if BaronSengir is planning to really pursue the mana denial plan then yes, Null Rod is most likely a far better idea. Although Chalice of the Void could be worth trying instead of Null Rod if BaronSengir wants to run Aether Vial and mana denial together.

Also, Daze is probably sub par compared to the other disruption available at the moment; I'd go with 4 Force of Will, 3-4 Mental Misstep, 0-3 Spell Pierce, and 0-3 Flusterstorm - meta dependent, of course.

[bakofried]

I am wondering, since Daze is cut from the deck, could Gush be explored as a potential draw-engine? Or is the card entirely neutered in a deck without Will+Fastbond+Cobra?

Furthermore, Cold-Eyed Selkie or Thada Adel should both be up for consideration, pending meta; likely a 3-of in the case of the former and a 2-of the case of the latter.

[BaronSengir]

I wonder... If i change out my disruption package to be similar to suggestions, will the merfolk be strong enoigh or should i drop them on favor of the posted 2nd place deck above? Id like to make the merfolk work if possible. Maybe fit in the Time Vault as mentioned? By the way thanks sooo much for all your suggestions so far.

[vaughnbros]

i went undefeated in the swiss and then missplayed to lose in the top 8 a couple months ago with the following merfolk list:
10   Island
4   Wasteland
1   Strip Mine
4   Ghost Quarter
4   Cursecatcher
4   Silvergill Adept
4   Rootwater Thief
4   Coralhelm Commander
1   Thada Adel, Acquisitor
4   Lord of Atlantis
4   Daze
4   Force of Will
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Black Lotus
1   Time Walk
3   Null Rod
3   Steel Sabotage
2   Spell Pierce

Sb:
4   Leyline of the Void
1   Ravenous Trap
1   Umezawa's Jitte
1   Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3   Mindbreak Trap
1   Pithing Needle
1   Surgical Extraction
3   Mental Misstep

I play tested this pretty extensively.  The only thing i would probably change is putting the surgical extraction in the main.

[xouman]

Miguel Angel's list is quite unique, but also he is a quite unique player, one of the most talented in LCV (even he does play few tournaments). That deck shone in a heavy drain meta, 25% MUD, few aggro and dredge. As he changes his deck everytime, opponents never know what cards he is playing, catching them by surprise frequently. Also I watched him in the qtr finals and his draws were massive XD

A merfolk deck would be quite aggressive, and null rod vs vial is a good question. Null rod slows opponents, it's good paired with fow, daze, misstep, mindbreak (free spells) as you can invest mana in creatures while countering spells. Vial allows plating snares, flusterstorms, pierces... even drains, but you have to wait few turns to drop creatures.  I would play merfolks with null rod > vial (in vintage), but just my opinion.

[Dr_Moo]

I prefer Chalice to Null Rod. Null Rod is stronger mana denial, Chalice gives you significantly more velocity in the early turns, both by being free and by allowing you to play Vial. That path also leads you to Standstill, which is one of the stronger cards available to the deck.
Also, Waterfront Bouncer is a Merfolk, so he could be added pretty painlessly if you decide that's an effect you want.

[xouman]

chalice is not as good from the top, and quite worse on the draw. Also metalworker and vault can be a real threat in some metagames...

[BaronSengir]

Would it be worth it to squeeze in a couple Snapcasters for Time Walk or maybe a counter or is it just getting in the way? It seems like Snapcaster's sole purpose in most games I've seen is to flashback Time Walk.

[BaronSengir]

Ok hows this for a deck? I know the main deck has like 66 cards in it so I need to cut stuff but I'm still trying to figure out what; suggestions? Maybe the Voltaic key since I have 4 Reejereys? I also feel like I have too many creatures in it. I also feel like I should probably put a Steel sabotage or two in the main deck.

2 Flooded Strand
8 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergil Adept
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Merrow Reejerey
4x Coralhelm Commander
1x Thada Adel, Acquisitor
2x Waterfront Bouncer
2x Snapcaster Mage

4x Force of Will
4x Flusterstorm
3x Mental Misstep
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Ancestral Recall

1x Time Walk

1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Time Vault
1x Voltaic Key
3x Null Rod

Sideboard:
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Null Rod
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Spell Snare
3x Steel Sabotage
1x Tormod's Crypt

[xouman]

-1 time vault
-1 voltaic key
-2 snapcasters
-2 flusters

that's the most easy cut without adding more cards. Time vault and voltaic key are "useless" in this deck, very few times you will win through vault.

snapcasters do not rely to this deck. You want to put hard pressure in T2-T3, no wait untapped for the midagme.

4 flusterstorms are too much in a deck that has the ability to fight a counterwar, but you will be tapped most of the time.

Also you only have 2 cards against a resolved tinker, and both must be played before tinker to be effective (besides, you don't have any way to tutor them). Thada is nice taking robot out, but you only have 1, and opponent has some turns before you can swing and take out. Playing ancestral and time walk, I'd probably play +1 mystical + 1 hurkyl's in the main. And finally, if you play 7 fetchlands (and maybe mystical), brainstorm could be nice.


Btw, I played merfolks with mutavaults, spellstutters and vendillions. Just a comment, since with so many muds, faeries are not at their best.

[vaughnbros]

Ok hows this for a deck? I know the main deck has like 66 cards in it so I need to cut stuff but I'm still trying to figure out what; suggestions? Maybe the Voltaic key since I have 4 Reejereys? I also feel like I have too many creatures in it. I also feel like I should probably put a Steel sabotage or two in the main deck.

2 Flooded Strand
8 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergil Adept
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Merrow Reejerey
4x Coralhelm Commander
1x Thada Adel, Acquisitor
2x Waterfront Bouncer
2x Snapcaster Mage

4x Force of Will
4x Flusterstorm
3x Mental Misstep
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Time Walk

1x Ancestral Recall

1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Time Vault
1x Voltaic Key
3x Null Rod

Sideboard:
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Null Rod
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Spell Snare
3x Steel Sabotage
1x Tormod's Crypt

i most definitely would not run vault key in here your only draw spell is ancestral and your using null rod.  My version was tuned heavily towards stealing games via null rod and my 9 strip effects if you are only going to run wastes and strip then you probably need more stax and dredge hate, especially since your choices for counter magic are pretty much useless against stax.  From my testing i found 12 lords to be almost excessive, in fact i boarded down to only coralhelms against big blue, as a lord of atlantis is just a generic bear by itself.   I dont think theres really a need to run fetches unless your going to splash a second color and around my area where its not uncommon to see a leonin arbiter, aven mindcensor, or magus of the moon, they are actually a detriment.  

I prefer Chalice to Null Rod. Null Rod is stronger mana denial, Chalice gives you significantly more velocity in the early turns, both by being free and by allowing you to play Vial. That path also leads you to Standstill, which is one of the stronger cards available to the deck.
Also, Waterfront Bouncer is a Merfolk, so he could be added pretty painlessly if you decide that's an effect you want.

vial is way way too slow for vintage and so is standstill in a deck not devoted to breaking it.  As far as replacing null rod for chalice, it might be possible the only issue is

chalice is not as good from the top, and quite worse on the draw. Also metalworker and vault can be a real threat in some metagames...

and usually the only cases where chalice is truly great are those in which you can drop it as a second number in merfolk's case you can play it at 3, but you would rarely have the mana to do so until extremely late game.

[BaronSengir]

vaughnbros just wondering why you didn't run Flusterstorm or Mental Misstep in your deck. Daze and Spell Pierce worked out ok for you?

[vaughnbros]

vaughnbros just wondering why you didn't run Flusterstorm or Mental Misstep in your deck. Daze and Spell Pierce worked out ok for you?

Daze was definitely amazing being able to tap down and cast my null rod or merfolk and still have counter magic up was huge.  I chose to run spell pierce in the main over misstep and flusterstorm because I could actually use it against stax, my mental missteps were in the sideboard, where i also chose mindbreak trap over flusterstorm, mainly just cause i knew there was a belcher deck there.  I didnt really have any problems with pierce against blue decks, and if it wasnt for me taking the wrong card on a rootwater thief activation i probably wouldve gone farther in the tournament, took a pyroclasm over yawg will.  The only part of my counter magic package that wasnt particularly effective was steel sabotage but it did save me one game when i top decked it against a blightsteel.  

[Dr_Moo]

vial is way way too slow for vintage and so is standstill in a deck not devoted to breaking it.  

I don't agree, and more than anything I just think the logic is faulty. Aether Vial delays your creatures by 1 turn, but so does Null Rod (because you have to spend an entire turn playing it). Null Rod is clearly the best mana denial card, but mana denial is only great if it's backed up by pressure.

As for the part about Standstill - what? How is it too slow in a deck that is supposed to be creating pressure early but not too slow in a deck whose threats are Mishra's Factory and Jace?

I'm not saying that a Chalice version is definitely better, but it's at least debatable.