Are Rituals even a Pillar Anymore?

[Killane]

Hello All!

Boy I miss the good old days. I won my first Vintage tournament a couple years back and I did it piloting TPS. I don't think I've ever enjoyed playing a deck as much as I enjoyed playing that thing. Learning to trust the deck, trying to push the T1 kill and paying for it from time to time,  the tension between wanting to go off NOW and wanting to go off FOR SURE, the mind games with your opponent.

I'll never forget taking 25 minutes to go off through a bunch of odd white stax-type enchantments that I'd never seen before in the finals of my last local vintage event.

I'll never forget the EPIC 3 hour match against Tezzeret that ended in a victory for me game 3 with no Tendrils left by DECKING my opponent with draw 7's and Ancestral Recall.

I'll never forget pushing the deck as far as it could go against the cocky life comdo player who gained 500 life instead of 8,000,000 and passing the turn, only to die as I cast 4 tendrils in one game with storm pushed over 60.

Then they printed Lodestone Golem.

Then they printed Mindbreak Trap.

Then they printed Phyrexian Metamorph, and Mental Misstep, and Flusterstorm, and....

oh they also unrestricted Gush, which for a combo deck is often a ritual that draws you two cards.

I'm starting to wonder if this board should even exist anymore. why play rituals? Where is the motivation? How are they better in any way than Gush, when even Doomsday builds cut the rituals these days (see Smmenen's recent Lab Maniac deck).

It makes me sad, but especially with the adaptation of Flusterstorm and the ubiquity of fast 13 sphere shop decks...

are rituals truly dead?

[Bill Copes]

As the format ebbs and flows, so do your tactics.  I feel rituals might be playable if you ran the right supporting cast.  For instance, if you're not inclined to play the deck because of the new counters, perhaps splashing green for Xanatid Swarm is the new way to go.

[meadbert]

As the format ebbs and flows, so do your tactics.  I feel rituals might be playable if you ran the right supporting cast.  For instance, if you're not inclined to play the deck because of the new counters, perhaps splashing green for Xanatid Swarm is the new way to go.

Xantid Swarm was okay right after Spell Pierce was printed, but Mental Misstep means it is no longer good.  Xantid Swarm is pretty bad right now.

[Daenyth]

Agreed. Fire//Ice and Darkblast are also well-positioned right now, so that's another point against it.

[serracollector]

Me and some friends were having the same conversation, and we both also came to the conclusion that between trap, fluster, and mainly Mental Misstep, that the Dark Ritual Storm decks of old are dead.

Atm its easier to play the red rituals and manamorphose.  I'm not saying "1 shot mana accel" decks are deck, but Dark Ritual, I think has bit the bullet.

Couldn't TPS be built off 8 red rits, manamorphose, and the new "sorcery/instant only" y will, and still be competitive?    Instead of Duress/TS, you just use REB/Pyro, and against MUD, you have all the yummy red cards offer to Arti-hate.

[Bill Copes]

As the format ebbs and flows, so do your tactics.  I feel rituals might be playable if you ran the right supporting cast.  For instance, if you're not inclined to play the deck because of the new counters, perhaps splashing green for Xanatid Swarm is the new way to go.

Xantid Swarm was okay right after Spell Pierce was printed, but Mental Misstep means it is no longer good.  Xantid Swarm is pretty bad right now.

Fair enough.  I was thinking about the card in quite the vacuum.  I wouldn't necessarily discount it because of Misstep, though.  Last I checked, people still play 1cc spells quite frequently.

Agreed. Fire//Ice and Darkblast are also well-positioned right now, so that's another point against it.

If I'm on TPS and my opponent brings in Darkblast, I think I'm pretty happy. 

[Cruel Ultimatum]

I top4ed the Grudge match 3 and t8ed waterbury playing bob tendrils, however with the rise of people playing flusterstorm maindeck, and more importantly the surge in landstill, I have shelved it for now. I could see Xantid swarm working well if you are playing 4 of your own missteps.

[Onslaught]

Lodestones were the coffin, and Missteps were the nail. For a while you could tweak the deck really hard to beat Shops, but trying to dance around the other increasingly played anti-storm counters you mentioned and Misstep is just too much.

[shrewarmies]

Rituals are still a pillar of the format. The way the decks play is just too different from blue based control/bazaars/workshop decks to be considered the same thing. Even if the decks are not winning a large amount of tournaments frequently they are still very powerful. Yes Misstep and Lodestone and maindeck Mindbreak Trap are not very hospitable to the ritual decks but their time I'm sure is not completely gone. 

Another problem with the decks is that while most of the other pillars get new printings (Lodestone, Misstep, Bloodghast etc) , the ritual pillar has not really had their fair share (Lotus Cobra not included because they are used more in Gush Storm). To be included in a ritual deck cards need to do ALOT for their mana (more cards/more resources/protection) AND cost still has to be quite low. They just don't want to print cards that fit this category because of the risk of introducing these cards to a type 2 environment. Maybe the ritual pillar is one new printing short of being the top dog again?

 Maybe that printing will allow a new style of ritual deck not available? I have been having some success with a ritual based Reanimator deck with a storm finisher. Its not the next deck to beat but maybe we are just looking in the wrong places?

On a side note, we need to look at the Banned list, how many of those cards are restricted BECAUSE the ritual pillars dominance? I have not been playing long but even I can see the power in those old decklists.

Rituals are strong, they just need a different environment or that special something to take the world by storm...See what I did there?

[Blue Lotus]

I think what the OP is saying is unrestrict necropotence.

[Smmenen]

Lotus Cobra has replaced Dark Ritual in modern Vintage.   

You can run Necro easily off Cobra and get through Thorns and otherewise expand your mana base in the same way.

[shrewarmies]

Yes Lotus cobra with gush creates a very strong Storm engine and is currently my favourite deck to play. It may not be the strongest deck to play but it has the same thrills and spills of the old Ritual Decks which I find is one of the main attractions. The ability to just "go off" at any moment certainly creates a tension between the players of when they can further their plans and when they have to hold back to try and stop the other player.

@ Smmenen: However the OP did ask about rituals in particular, not a storm endgame. Many decks can fall under "Ritual based Combo" (ANT/Belcher), not just TPS. Not that I would recommend those decks but they do still fall under Rituals as a Pillar. I don't think there are many decks that would want to play Cobras and Rituals so you are no longer talking about a Ritual deck when talking about Cobra Gush, just another way to reach your storm endgame. AS you have stated on your pod cast just because two decks have the same endgame does not make them the same deck, if how they reach their endgame is vastly different they must be different decks (I am paraphrasing, I am talking about your bit about how the 6 Blue decks were actually 5 different archetypes). Therefore we cannot talk about a Cobra Gush deck  as being the best "Ritual deck" just because they want to win using the storm mechanic. If I have misunderstood your post please correct me.

[Onslaught]

I've been trying to think about what they could possibly print to resurrect Dark Ritual in Vintage. Let's pretend it doesn't have to be something balanced in Standard, since it could theoretically be released direct to Eternal formats like Flusterstorm was.

Intuitively it seemed like the easiest answer would be "print really good stuff with heavy black costs." As mentioned earlier in the thread though, that doesn't solve anything. Doomsday and Necropotence can both easily be cast off Gush and/or Lotus Cobra. What about an aggressive Storm spell that rewards having black mana floating? Even then, it might be more useful in a Gush deck.

It would be nice to see Rituals be more playable in a way that isn't just "well it's able to win even faster than before, so now it's usable again." Maybe something like a BBB instant with Storm that draws a card and makes them lose a life? This could maybe encourage a semi-suicide black shell, since it's a draw engine and mini-Tendrils in one. It doesn't do enough to kill them, but it puts them in striking range from Bob beats and maybe other aggro stuff. Or, maybe the best way to revive Rituals would be to cede Storm combo to Gush, and push some kind of heavily disruptive card like a BBB Sorcery with Storm that exiles a card at random from their hand. Or, BBB Sorcery without Storm that exiles a card at random from their hand, a card at random from their GY, and one of their permanents at random. Disruptive stuff that aids beatdown without speeding up a combo kill could be safe, as I don't see Gush decks going all out to pay BBB for something that blows up lands and stuff. Then again, it would have to be pretty damn useful to return Rituals to prominence. If it's just another disruptive card that gets added to Dark Depths and nothing else, then what's the point?

Unfortunately, it seems like the main way to reward playing Ritual (without also printing a card that helps Gush) is to print something with Storm. The odds of that happening seem low...

[Killane]

I think, after reading all.the responses and considering the issue, that rituals.actually are dead. The environment is just too hostile. Every popular deck has really really good.hate against you: Dredge is actually more consistantly fast game One than any build with a snowballs chance against MUD, and Lodestone completely changes the "sculpt and then hurkyll's" dynamic of the old match by putting you on a very real clock that also denies you cards.from Necropotence and Bargain. Gush is almost as fast (talking averages here) but far more stable, their rituals also draw 2 and the can play a much heavier control package then even TPS did. In the U matchup, back in the day, counterspells were much harder to play correctly vs Storm. Now, you misstep the Duress, flusterstom an engine, Mindbreak the Tendrils and you still have FoW backup, all for a lousey U mana and 3 piddling life. I miss my rituals, but I think they are not.really possible in modern vintage (outlying.performances notwithstanding, there's always variance)

[bluemage55]

Unfortunately, it seems like the main way to reward playing Ritual (without also printing a card that helps Gush) is to print something with Storm. The odds of that happening seem low...

What Ritual needs is more effective disruption, so that it can keep pace with all the fun tools blue has gotten recently like Misstep and Flusterstorm. I'd like to see something like:


Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller discards a card at random.

[Onslaught]

Can't non-Ritual decks abuse that just as easily as a Ritual deck can? Maybe not, I'd just be wary to give even more potential tools to Gush instead of seeing something that boosts Rituals and nothing else.

[bluemage55]

Hmm, point taken.  Honestly, it's rather difficult to make Ritual competitive with unrestricted Gush out there, since Gush is just so much better.  It probably would help to rerestrict Gush once again, but I doubt that's happening anytime soon.

[Onslaught]

I would never want to see Gush restricted, especially not if the reason was to force people to go back to Rituals. More and more it seems that any return to prominence for Rituals would be contingent upon the printing of an extremely disruptive card that costs a lot of black mana. Let Gush have the Storm/combo role, and push Rituals more by printing something that combo decks most likely wouldn't use.

1) Disruptive effect skewed towards resource denial (something insanely powerful like exiling random cards from hand, blowing up multiple lands, etc)

Gush combo and/or control decks that can generate high amounts of black mana will most likely not be interested in disruption effects like this. Ideally, the disruption effect would be geared towards enabling some kind of aggro strategy. It would also play into black's strengths if it stripped a huge amount of resources from both players, as you would be able to recover from a topdeck situation faster than the opponent due to Bob.

2) Creature

This would make it immune from Flusterstorm, which is a big problem for Ritual decks since you are building up the Storm count for the opponent. Also, it would push the idea that you should be playing Rituals with some kind of aggro shell, or maybe a return to the old GWSx style of minor beatdown + Tendrils finisher. That would be a nice balance, as you have Gush playing the role of "TPS" with Rituals transitioning to a less explosive but equally viable build.

3) BB or BBB in casting cost.

In the same way we don't want a new "This Card Was Printed to Power Up Dark Ritual" instant or sorcery to be able to slip into Gush, we wouldn't want a creature printed for Rituals to drop right into Fish. Even BB might not be enough to dissuade them from  using it.

So taking that all into account, maybe something like

Ritual Dude
BBB

Haste

When [this] is cast _____________.

3/1

What do you fill in the blank with that makes him worth paying BBB? Note that it says when he is cast, not when he comes into play. Maybe he exiles target land and exiles a card at random from the opponent's hand. Or if he was "when [this] comes into play" instead of when it is cast, maybe he could kill a total of three lands/cards from hand...I dunno how to word that though. These suggestions are all massively broken in Legacy too, since they don't have the clever "this effect is insanely powerful in Vintage and not in other format" kind of effects like Gaddock Teeg or Aven Mindcensor.

[bluemage55]

There aren't a lack of nice things to do with black mana; usually there are plenty of ways to use Ritual mana to cast a solid threat or bomb.  There's no reason that a new BBB creature would see play, not when you can use Ritual mana for Bob, Necro, Bargain, Jar, Gifts, Desire, Timetwister, Tinker, Yawg, and Tendrils.

The real problem is with playing Ritual now is that:

(a) with all the disruption out there now, there's little reason not to play a more blue-oriented deck that gives you access to better disruption of your own
(b) Lotus Cobra + Gush is comparable or superior in every aspect (mana production, card drawing, resiliency)

Now that cards like Lotus Cobra, Mental Misstep, and Flusterstorm are in the format, there's no point to playing Rituals as long as Gush is unrestricted.  While restricting Gush just to restore Rituals might not be appropriate, Gush is also the most dominant engine (at least as of August/September), and blue doesn't really need another pillar in addition to Drain.  As already stated, however, I don't see the DCI going back on Gush yet again anytime soon.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I've been trying to think about what they could possibly print to resurrect Dark Ritual in Vintage. Let's pretend it doesn't have to be something balanced in Standard, since it could theoretically be released direct to Eternal formats like Flusterstorm was.

Intuitively it seemed like the easiest answer would be "print really good stuff with heavy black costs." As mentioned earlier in the thread though, that doesn't solve anything. Doomsday and Necropotence can both easily be cast off Gush and/or Lotus Cobra. What about an aggressive Storm spell that rewards having black mana floating? Even then, it might be more useful in a Gush deck.

It would be nice to see Rituals be more playable in a way that isn't just "well it's able to win even faster than before, so now it's usable again." Maybe something like a BBB instant with Storm that draws a card and makes them lose a life? This could maybe encourage a semi-suicide black shell, since it's a draw engine and mini-Tendrils in one. It doesn't do enough to kill them, but it puts them in striking range from Bob beats and maybe other aggro stuff. Or, maybe the best way to revive Rituals would be to cede Storm combo to Gush, and push some kind of heavily disruptive card like a BBB Sorcery with Storm that exiles a card at random from their hand. Or, BBB Sorcery without Storm that exiles a card at random from their hand, a card at random from their GY, and one of their permanents at random. Disruptive stuff that aids beatdown without speeding up a combo kill could be safe, as I don't see Gush decks going all out to pay BBB for something that blows up lands and stuff. Then again, it would have to be pretty damn useful to return Rituals to prominence. If it's just another disruptive card that gets added to Dark Depths and nothing else, then what's the point?

Unfortunately, it seems like the main way to reward playing Ritual (without also printing a card that helps Gush) is to print something with Storm. The odds of that happening seem low...

I think you inadvertently hit the perfect spell to resurrect ritual

Deadly Craving
BBB - Instant
Draw a card, you lose 1 life
Storm

[bluemage55]

Deadly Craving
BBB - Instant
Draw a card, you lose 1 life
Storm

And why wouldn't you play that using Lotus Cobra + Gush instead of with Rituals?

[vaughnbros]

I've been trying to think about what they could possibly print to resurrect Dark Ritual in Vintage. Let's pretend it doesn't have to be something balanced in Standard, since it could theoretically be released direct to Eternal formats like Flusterstorm was.

Intuitively it seemed like the easiest answer would be "print really good stuff with heavy black costs." As mentioned earlier in the thread though, that doesn't solve anything. Doomsday and Necropotence can both easily be cast off Gush and/or Lotus Cobra. What about an aggressive Storm spell that rewards having black mana floating? Even then, it might be more useful in a Gush deck.

It would be nice to see Rituals be more playable in a way that isn't just "well it's able to win even faster than before, so now it's usable again." Maybe something like a BBB instant with Storm that draws a card and makes them lose a life? This could maybe encourage a semi-suicide black shell, since it's a draw engine and mini-Tendrils in one. It doesn't do enough to kill them, but it puts them in striking range from Bob beats and maybe other aggro stuff. Or, maybe the best way to revive Rituals would be to cede Storm combo to Gush, and push some kind of heavily disruptive card like a BBB Sorcery with Storm that exiles a card at random from their hand. Or, BBB Sorcery without Storm that exiles a card at random from their hand, a card at random from their GY, and one of their permanents at random. Disruptive stuff that aids beatdown without speeding up a combo kill could be safe, as I don't see Gush decks going all out to pay BBB for something that blows up lands and stuff. Then again, it would have to be pretty damn useful to return Rituals to prominence. If it's just another disruptive card that gets added to Dark Depths and nothing else, then what's the point?

Unfortunately, it seems like the main way to reward playing Ritual (without also printing a card that helps Gush) is to print something with Storm. The odds of that happening seem low...

I think you inadvertently hit the perfect spell to resurrect ritual

Deadly Craving
BBB - Instant
Draw a card, you lose 1 life
Storm

how exactly would this card make rituals better against stax, flusterstorm, and mindbreak trap?

[bluemage55]

how exactly would this card make rituals better against stax, flusterstorm, and mindbreak trap?

Exactly. Ritual decks don't need more bombs. They need resilience and disruption that is currently far better provided by blue.

[nineisnoone]

Pretty much no.

In retrospect, I don't really even see Ritual as ever really being a pillar. It was always more Golgari Grave-Troll than Bazaar of Baghdad. All it does is generate mana and not even as a permanent feature. Unlike Gush, it didn't really do anything to I would say it's best usage right now is to power out a turn 1 Null Rod. Previously, I think it was good because the power level for cheaper spells was sufficiently low that having the option to go big was strong.

But with the format as it is, early game is too fast for it, and in the long run there are better options. If there was a black Jace (Liliana doesn't count) or a black Stony Silence, I could see sui-black coming back. But combo/control it can't compare to Gush/Cobra in my eyes.

[DubDub]

From the TMD Online Invitation report thread, quoting myself:

LEARNINGS

I think ANT is underplayed right now.  The discussion of 'whether rituals are even a pillar anymore' got me thinking about what Ritual can do that Gush/Lotus Cobra can't do.  The key difference between Dark Ritual and Gush?  One costs    while the other costs  .  Simply put, Gush cannot go into an Ad Nauseam deck, so I wanted to see what that deck looked like.  I found that:
-ANT is very fast, I had turn one/two kills, sometimes with protection (although, thin protection like an unsupported Silence).
-Burning Wish is good as a singleton, but it'd be difficult to build the deck around it.  I don't think this application of ANT+BW is sufficient threat to keep BW restricted.
-I like drawing upwards of seven cards at once.
-Timetwister probably doesn't belong in the maindeck.  It hurts as a three when revealed, and there's so much free countermagic going on now that casting it when your opponent hasn't been silenced and/or you don't intend to win that same turn is insane.  It probably belongs in the board to be fetched by BW in dire situations or against Dredge.
-Mana Vault doesn't belong, probably at all.  It was okay in an earlier version I had that was trying to play Tinker and Memory Jar (or briefly, Myr Battlesphere).
-Lion's Eye Diamond I can't quite get a grip on.  Sometimes it's completely useless, and sometimes you're cracking it to get the double blue to play Desire for fourteen out of the board... I'm not cutting it yet.

[voltron00x]

ANT made top 8 at the last Blue Bell in the hands of someone who is not a regular / routine Vintage player. 

[DubDub]

ANT made top 8 at the last Blue Bell in the hands of someone who is not a regular / routine Vintage player. 

Yep, I think I took a look at that list, some other attempts at Vintage ANT including your thread from ages ago, and Legacy ANT and TES lists.

[Killane]

ANT made top 8 at the last Blue Bell in the hands of someone who is not a regular / routine Vintage player. 

Did he play against any workshop decks? The matchup seems to common to hope to avoid regularly, and virtually unwinnable without back to back T1 kills, which event for ANT isn't that common.

[Worldslayer]

To answer/address some things -

1) I am somewhat regular/routine, especially at the BBGD events, but simply have yet to make any sort of a name for myself outside of a top 3/4 finish earlier this year. That said, my skill level probably has less to do with the Top 8 than the deck itself, which was a vicious killing machine all day.

2) My list hasn't yet been posted, DubDub, but to be honest it is an entirely straightforward 4/4/4/4/restricted list set up, with the only card I'm unhappy with being Necropotence and 13/15 of my sideboard cards.

3) My day did not include any workshop decks, though previously I have played and won out against them against proficient players (I think I handed Detwiler a round 1 loss with Stax some time ago). My board plan has shifted to 4 Steel Sabotage and 3 Hurkyll's Recall, siding out all four Pact of Negations and 3 of my 4 Duress. While still a match up you don't want to see, it's not entirely unwinnable as Steel Sabotage counter -> Hurkyll's bounce -> kill them in the window you have is perfectly doable.  The Serenity board plan is something I heard of, but haven't tried yet, so it's even possible there's an even better board plan to make the matchup a game rather than a die roll.  To be honest, the new GRO lists floating around seem like as much of a nightmare as STAX ever was, because at least against STAX games 2 and 3 are about fighting for the right to goldfish. GRO lists (Remora/Gush/Goyf) are about a mindbreak trap shy of being a "great hits" list of stuff ANT never wants to see together.


I'd say Dark Ritual is a pillar, in reference to the thread's original question, but more of a gambit pillar along the lines of Bazaar than a stable skill-based pillar like Drains or Rods. You don't taking it there really hoping to "outplay" anyone, because your interaction is so minimal. You take it there knowing what you want to do, and banking on the fact that not everyone you play against will really know what THEY want to do and die on turn 1-2 because of it. Plenty of "keepable" to even "good" blue hands involve, at most, one Force of Will/relevant counterspell. Usually they involve "a bunch of cool stuff" that ANT finds irrelevant. If they know you're on ANT sometimes they'll dig harder, but realistically there's only so hard you can mulligan against ANT before you might just autolose. The STAX matchup is unfortunate, but having a list that does not require 6-7 board slots to be filled in against Dredge gives you a little bit of leeway. On other decklists, I believe both TPS and a monoblack Confidant list have Top 8'd in the northeast in the past few months. It's definitely the redheaded stepchild pillar, anymore, but that's not always a bad place to be.

[DubDub]

Totally agree.  I think with the blue decks becoming to some extent about attacking with creatures, ANT is well positioned, you just have to be fast enough to ignore what they do.

In the game one last night that got disconnected the Noble cracked Lotus for   to make two Delver of Secrets and cast an Ancestral I could have mental misstepped.  I mean, that's totally fine because I was planning on Silencing him and then drawing ~14 cards off Ad Nauseam and winning before those Delver's tranformed, let alone attacked.

Now, had he won the die roll I might have gotten smacked for 6 before resolving AN, which would have made life more difficult.  So I won't go overbroad in any claim about ANT's positioning.

Edit: I just want to be clear; in no way do I profess to have expertise in this area.  I just wouldn't want people to write Rituals off completely.  There are things that Rituals do better than Gush/Cobra.  I focused here on Ad Nauseam, but it's also easier to Snapcast a Ritual than it is a Gush.  Is there a market for that?  Not yet, but maybe.