Are Rituals even a Pillar Anymore?

[voltron00x]

To answer/address some things -

1) I am somewhat regular/routine, especially at the BBGD events, but simply have yet to make any sort of a name for myself outside of a top 3/4 finish earlier this year. That said, my skill level probably has less to do with the Top 8 than the deck itself, which was a vicious killing machine all day.

2) My list hasn't yet been posted, DubDub, but to be honest it is an entirely straightforward 4/4/4/4/restricted list set up, with the only card I'm unhappy with being Necropotence and 13/15 of my sideboard cards.

3) My day did not include any workshop decks, though previously I have played and won out against them against proficient players (I think I handed Detwiler a round 1 loss with Stax some time ago). My board plan has shifted to 4 Steel Sabotage and 3 Hurkyll's Recall, siding out all four Pact of Negations and 3 of my 4 Duress. While still a match up you don't want to see, it's not entirely unwinnable as Steel Sabotage counter -> Hurkyll's bounce -> kill them in the window you have is perfectly doable.  The Serenity board plan is something I heard of, but haven't tried yet, so it's even possible there's an even better board plan to make the matchup a game rather than a die roll.  To be honest, the new GRO lists floating around seem like as much of a nightmare as STAX ever was, because at least against STAX games 2 and 3 are about fighting for the right to goldfish. GRO lists (Remora/Gush/Goyf) are about a mindbreak trap shy of being a "great hits" list of stuff ANT never wants to see together.


I'd say Dark Ritual is a pillar, in reference to the thread's original question, but more of a gambit pillar along the lines of Bazaar than a stable skill-based pillar like Drains or Rods. You don't taking it there really hoping to "outplay" anyone, because your interaction is so minimal. You take it there knowing what you want to do, and banking on the fact that not everyone you play against will really know what THEY want to do and die on turn 1-2 because of it. Plenty of "keepable" to even "good" blue hands involve, at most, one Force of Will/relevant counterspell. Usually they involve "a bunch of cool stuff" that ANT finds irrelevant. If they know you're on ANT sometimes they'll dig harder, but realistically there's only so hard you can mulligan against ANT before you might just autolose. The STAX matchup is unfortunate, but having a list that does not require 6-7 board slots to be filled in against Dredge gives you a little bit of leeway. On other decklists, I believe both TPS and a monoblack Confidant list have Top 8'd in the northeast in the past few months. It's definitely the redheaded stepchild pillar, anymore, but that's not always a bad place to be.

Ah, I knew I recognized you but for some reason I thought it was from the AU Legacy tournaments, my bad.  And while I do think my Gro deck is a pretty bad match-up for you, drawing a Misstep plus 3 Remora in game 2 is pretty insane.  My draws against you were pretty busted.   Congrats on the top 8; ANT actually shows up in top 8s in clumps, usually despite very limited number of players, so there may be more to the deck than I give it credit for.

[desolutionist]

The next good Ritual deck probably involves Past in Flames

[Grand Inquisitor]

To answer the OP's questions: yes.

Why aren't they played more?  Because they're hard.  Leveraging the brokeness of rituals (especially now, but always) requires a lot of accurate anticipation both in terms of deck construction and game play.

[Smmenen]

@ Smmenen: However the OP did ask about rituals in particular, not a storm endgame. Many decks can fall under "Ritual based Combo" (ANT/Belcher), not just TPS. Not that I would recommend those decks but they do still fall under Rituals as a Pillar. I don't think there are many decks that would want to play Cobras and Rituals so you are no longer talking about a Ritual deck when talking about Cobra Gush, just another way to reach your storm endgame. AS you have stated on your pod cast just because two decks have the same endgame does not make them the same deck, if how they reach their endgame is vastly different they must be different decks (I am paraphrasing, I am talking about your bit about how the 6 Blue decks were actually 5 different archetypes). Therefore we cannot talk about a Cobra Gush deck  as being the best "Ritual deck" just because they want to win using the storm mechanic. If I have misunderstood your post please correct me.

Part of the nature of the game is that new printings supersede old ones.   This happens in two ways:

1)  A new printing is strictly superior to an old one.   This happens all the time, surprisingly enough.  My innstrad set review identified dozens of cards that were strictly superior (or nearly strictly superior (i.e. Memory's Journey) upgrades to old cards.    

2) A new printing is better in the extant metagame OR in a better color than an old one, and the old one disappears.  

Dark Ritual is an extremely powerful spell.  It has great synergies throughout the format, with cards like Yawg Will, Necropotence, and Yawgmoth's Bargain.  

However, Dark Ritual is extremely vulnerable in the current metagame to both Workshops on the one hand, and cards like Mental Misstep/Mindbreak Trap/Mystic Remora on the other.  

Lotus Cobra is vulnerable to neither, and performs the same role: it accelerates out Necropotence and Bargain, and combos with Yawg will.   Cobra also beats down for two, and expands your mana base, rather than contracting it, with each play.

Cobra can't accelerate out an Ad Nauseam, but it does almost everything required or asked of Dark Ritual.  It's for this reason that Dark Ritual has disappeared.  Brian Demars realized last year that Cobra could do all these things (which is why we played it at the Waterbury last September), and since then, Dark Ritual's usage has been sharply circumscribed.

[nineisnoone]

The next good Ritual deck probably involves Past in Flames

I'm really wanting to see it too.

[Ufactor]

@ Smmenen: However the OP did ask about rituals in particular, not a storm endgame. Many decks can fall under "Ritual based Combo" (ANT/Belcher), not just TPS. Not that I would recommend those decks but they do still fall under Rituals as a Pillar. I don't think there are many decks that would want to play Cobras and Rituals so you are no longer talking about a Ritual deck when talking about Cobra Gush, just another way to reach your storm endgame. AS you have stated on your pod cast just because two decks have the same endgame does not make them the same deck, if how they reach their endgame is vastly different they must be different decks (I am paraphrasing, I am talking about your bit about how the 6 Blue decks were actually 5 different archetypes). Therefore we cannot talk about a Cobra Gush deck  as being the best "Ritual deck" just because they want to win using the storm mechanic. If I have misunderstood your post please correct me.

Part of the nature of the game is that new printings supersede old ones.   This happens in two ways:

1)  A new printing is strictly superior to an old one.   This happens all the time, surprisingly enough.  My innstrad set review identified dozens of cards that were strictly superior (or nearly strictly superior (i.e. Memory's Journey) upgrades to old cards.    

2) A new printing is better in the extant metagame OR in a better color than an old one, and the old one disappears.  

Dark Ritual is an extremely powerful spell.  It has great synergies throughout the format, with cards like Yawg Will, Necropotence, and Yawgmoth's Bargain.  

However, Dark Ritual is extremely vulnerable in the current metagame to both Workshops on the one hand, and cards like Mental Misstep/Mindbreak Trap/Mystic Remora on the other.  

Lotus Cobra is vulnerable to neither, and performs the same role: it accelerates out Necropotence and Bargain, and combos with Yawg will.   Cobra also beats down for two, and expands your mana base, rather than contracting it, with each play.

Cobra can't accelerate out an Ad Nauseam, but it does almost everything required or asked of Dark Ritual.  It's for this reason that Dark Ritual has disappeared.  Brian Demars realized last year that Cobra could do all these things (which is why we played it at the Waterbury last September), and since then, Dark Ritual's usage has been sharply circumscribed.

While there is a massive amount of truth to this statement, I feel like there is also too much generalization involved.  Dark Ritual seems far from dead, and there are several scenarios where I would rather have it instead of Lotus Cobra.

Dark Ritual is better on first turn.  If you are playing Bob-Tendrils, you can us the three black mana to cast Confidant and Thoughtseize, which is an incredibly strong play against everybody except Dredge.  If you are playing Grim Long (a deck that Smmenen himself carried into contemporary Vintage) then you can cast multiple rituals, cast Grim Tutor, and win on the spot.  If you are playing ANT, you get to cast that deck's namesake and go into similar game-winning nuttiness.  Casting Gifts Ungiven at on your opponents end step seems some good as well.

Dark Ritual has better synergy with not only Mind's Desire, Ad Nauseum, and Grim Tutor, but also Cabal Ritual, Draw 7's, Tendrils of Agony, and Yawgmoth's Will.  The only card that Dark Ritual does not have a strictly better interaction with is Fastbond.

Dark Ritual allows you to take one big turn instead of being forced to win over several smaller turns, again, Fastbond notwithstanding.

Dark Ritual does not force you to run green , hold back a land drop or give an opponent playing Oath an auto win..

[Ufactor]

I am actually sorta kinda maybe considering writing a huge article about blue control decks.  Not sure this will really happen though.  It would focus on how some card choices cascade into other card choices, some of which are not immediately obvious.  

It needs to be done.  This is arguably the next level of deck building.  First is evaluating card value in a metagame vacuum, next is in the context of a metagame (SWOT style), the succession would be synergistic relationships between otherwise strong cards in the same deck.

The very same thing could be said for storm decks ...a good example of this would be how draw7's have a greater chance for fizzle in a slower deck like Bob-Tendrils.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

I am actually sorta kinda maybe considering writing a huge article about blue control decks.  Not sure this will really happen though.  It would focus on how some card choices cascade into other card choices, some of which are not immediately obvious.  

It needs to be done.  This is arguably the next level of deck building.  First is evaluating card value in a metagame vacuum, next is in the context of a metagame (SWOT style), the succession would be synergistic relationships between otherwise strong cards in the same deck.

The very same thing could be said for storm decks ...a good example of this would be how draw7's have a greater chance for fizzle in a slower deck like Bob-Tendrils.

Draw 7s have a greater chance to fizzle in a bob tendrils deck because the idea of bob tendrils is that you are giving up some amount of power in order to be more resilient. Since you have a relatively less powerful deck, draw 7s get worse since you are not guaranteed to have a hand that can win that turn. IMO a bob tendrils deck is more of a control deck with a combo finish then it is a combo deck. You are trying to get ahead in the early game until you reach a critical mass of cards to storm them out.

[Ufactor]

I am actually sorta kinda maybe considering writing a huge article about blue control decks.  Not sure this will really happen though.  It would focus on how some card choices cascade into other card choices, some of which are not immediately obvious.  

It needs to be done.  This is arguably the next level of deck building.  First is evaluating card value in a metagame vacuum, next is in the context of a metagame (SWOT style), the succession would be synergistic relationships between otherwise strong cards in the same deck.

The very same thing could be said for storm decks ...a good example of this would be how draw7's have a greater chance for fizzle in a slower deck like Bob-Tendrils.

Draw 7s have a greater chance to fizzle in a bob tendrils deck because the idea of bob tendrils is that you are giving up some amount of power in order to be more resilient. Since you have a relatively less powerful deck, draw 7s get worse since you are not guaranteed to have a hand that can win that turn. IMO a bob tendrils deck is more of a control deck with a combo finish then it is a combo deck. You are trying to get ahead in the early game until you reach a critical mass of cards to storm them out.

Yes ...that's the idea but it's also more complicated than that.  I think Pikula realizes how complicated it is and I can't wait for him to expand upon this idea.  Mana-intensive black spells tend to have a relationship with the number and type of "rituals" in a deck, Tinker and Tolarian Academy get better or worse with the number of playable artifacts, Force of Will needs a certain amount of blue cards ...all of these form a symbiosis and a delacate balance.  More importantly they do this simultaneously in the same deck and seemingly different and seperate phenomina may or may not react with each other.  There are slight differences to how all of this comes together in either a storm deck or a control deck ..either way I'm excited about what comes out!!

[Ufactor]

There are three ways to win the Storm vs. MUD match.  This now seems like a generous slice of "duH", but I wish what I'm about to say could've been spelled out for me months ago.

1) Force their turn-one play, go nutz.  This obviously requires the god hand.

2) Tinker, which only works if you have a sick tell or the ability to play around Phyrexian Metamorph and Tangle Wire.

3) Realize that even against Shop Aggro, the worst thing that they can put you on is a four-turn clock.  That gives you a significant amount of time to assemble Hurkyl's Recall and the combo.  Night's Whisper and extra bounce spells go a long way with providing this option.

...to that end, here's what I'm currently testing:


4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Night’s Whisper

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
2 Rebuild
1 Tendrils of Agony

Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm
Demonic Tutor
Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal
Memory Jar
Merchant Scroll
Mind’s Desire
Mystical Tutor
Necropotence
Ponder
Time Walk
Timetwister
Tinker
Vampiric Tutor
Yawgmoth’s Bargain
Yawgmoth’s Will

Black Lotus
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Sol Ring
Tolarian Academy

3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
1 Underground Sea

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Hurkyl’s Recall
SB: 4 Teferi’s Realm
SB: 3 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Planar Void
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction, Extirpate
SB: 1 Perish, Nature’s Ruin

[InfectedMushroom]

Do you miss Memory Jar? The card is just nuts and especially against a Workshop player, who can't play anything in their Jar hand.

 I may try Night's Whisper. However, I have been testing Preordain, which helps with the blue count for FoW.

[Ufactor]

Do you miss Memory Jar? The card is just nuts and especially against a Workshop player, who can't play anything in their Jar hand.

 I may try Night's Whisper. However, I have been testing Preordain, which helps with the blue count for FoW.

I don't miss Memory Jar, or any draw7's for that matter.  There are a number of good things to say about Jar in that it gives you an alternate line of play with Tinker, you can often cast it off double Dark Ritual, and is unaffected by Lodestone Golem.  There are a number of games where it sits in my hand while I wish it was something else, it fizzles frequently, and is awful against blue decks.  I'm cutting it for now, but it can easily go back in later.

Night's Whisper is the best thing to happen to the Storm vs. MUD match in at least the past year.  Having a black card that gives you +1 card advantage means that it is awesome both pre- and mid-combo.  It's even better here than in 4c Gush ("Black Magic") because you can safely cast it and then pass turn one with a basic swamp.  I wouldn't cut Night's Whisper for anything until Shops start to decline ...which is not to say you couldn't run BOTH Night's Whisper AND Preordain.

...oh and basic lands are tech (derf!)

[InfectedMushroom]

Yeah you run quite a few basic lands, which is nice. It would be a tight list to play both Night's Whisper and Preordain, but I think it could be done. With the amount of answers you pack for Shops, how do you generally fare against them?

I'm going to try something like your list. The Blue-based matchup should be decent with the amount of draw you now have.