Free Podcast: So Many Insane Plays # 13 -- The Spring Vintage Metagame

[boggyb]

aaah pikula, what're you talkin bout? This was a great one I encourage you guys to keep making these, as often as possible please! Some requests, if you're accepting those:

• More play situations. Mulligan decisions would be particularly good, as those are tend to be the subtlest and also some of the most important decisions in a vintage match.
• Episodes focused on a single archetype, and its history/evolution would be nice. Like, the history and current evolution of workshop prison, or of Grow, would be very interesting.
• A discussion of effective metagaming in the Vintage environment.

Thanks for all your effort!

[chrispikula]

Obviously I'm not going to sit here and try to convince people the podcast was bad, that would be a pretty crappy thing to do. For whatever reason, for me, this was by far the weakest of these I've listened to. 

[Smmenen]

All criticism is welcome and appreciated.  All feedback helps us make better podcasts in the future.   Thanks for being honest. 

[chrispikula]

All criticism is welcome and appreciated.  All feedback helps us make better podcasts in the future.   Thanks for being honest. 

I think my biggest issue is that you really didn't walk us through the top 8s that you were looking at to draw your conclusions.  I felt like I was just sorta trusting you that Goyfs were dominating, because you didn't really give me any data.  It was really impossible for me to agree or disagree with a lot of what you were saying, because I didn't really know what you were looking at.  I also though the part where you started to build some sort of control deck, where you were just sorta thinking out loud, was pointless.  You just named a bunch of cards, and then you said something like "if I was already playing white" when talking about StPs, which is a nonsense statement, because there are not any vintage control decks currently that are "already playing white". 

One thing that you touched on that I really liked was the idea that previously uncuttable cards were now getting cut from your decks, and the idea of whether or not it was always worth it to play black just for Vamp, DT, and Will.  I think these are really deep topics that could lead to some great discussion.

[Twaun007]

One thing that you touched on that I really liked was the idea that previously uncuttable cards were now getting cut from your decks, and the idea of whether or not it was always worth it to play black just for Vamp, DT, and Will.  I think these are really deep topics that could lead to some great discussion.

I agree with Chris on this one.

[CHA1N5]

I think my biggest issue is that you really didn't walk us through the top 8s that you were looking at to draw your conclusions.  I felt like I was just sorta trusting you that Goyfs were dominating, because you didn't really give me any data. 

For the sake of clarity: we were referring to all morphling.de results since Dark Ascension was legal.  We did not make that explicit.

  I also though the part where you started to build some sort of control deck, where you were just sorta thinking out loud, was pointless. 

Fair enough.

there are not any vintage control decks currently that are "already playing white". 

See Brian's Bant deck from the prior Meandeck Open, which he T8ed with and with which another player won one of the tournaments we were summarizing.   Of course, "control deck" is subjective, but those decks were the forebears of the shift toward non-Bob, Plow-packing control decks.  We may not have made this clear enough.

One thing that you touched on that I really liked was the idea that previously uncuttable cards were now getting cut from your decks, and the idea of whether or not it was always worth it to play black just for Vamp, DT, and Will.  I think these are really deep topics that could lead to some great discussion.

Good idea.


Thanks, Chris, et al.

[MaximumCDawg]

I hate to say it, but I was disappointed with this podcast. I've really enjoyed the previous ones, but I thought this one you guys just seemed underprepared. 

I don't get this at all.  This podcast was just as well-put together as the rest.  Moreso, even.  It was missing Steve's digressions into new topics when he hears about something for the first time on-air, which maybe is what you're picking up on.  For example, a few podcasts back he was asking what flip cards or Morbid would have to be printed in order to be Vintage playable.  Yeah, sometimes these digressions end up sounding kind of silly, but as often as not they're also entertaining. 

All in all, solid show.  No play-by-play scenario analysis (booo) but we can't have everything every episode.

[Smmenen]

I think people are entitled to different views about what makes an entertaining podcast or article.   It's fine to disagree on that.  I respect the views of people who didn't like it, just as I appreciate the positive feedback. 

[CHA1N5]

I think people are entitled to different views about what makes an entertaining podcast or article.   It's fine to disagree on that.  I respect the views of people who didn't like it, just as I appreciate the positive feedback. 

Exactly.  It's tough to get much negative feedback on a podcast because people tend to simply stop listening and provide no input.  We would prefer to get a mixture of good and bad after each show.

[Commandant]

I didn't think it was that bad but I've been a fan of the Podcast since day 1 so I may be biased. I can understand Chris's sentiment with Steve's occasional asides, it would be more pleasant if they either did not happen or actually went somewhere.

[chrispikula]

I like the podcast a lot.  I just believe in constructive criticism. 

[Ten-Ten]

All criticism is welcome and appreciated.  All feedback helps us make better podcasts in the future.   Thanks for being honest. 

I think my biggest issue is that you really didn't walk us through the top 8s that you were looking at to draw your conclusions.  I felt like I was just sorta trusting you that Goyfs were dominating, because you didn't really give me any data.  It was really impossible for me to agree or disagree with a lot of what you were saying, because I didn't really know what you were looking at.  I also though the part where you started to build some sort of control deck, where you were just sorta thinking out loud, was pointless.  You just named a bunch of cards, and then you said something like "if I was already playing white" when talking about StPs, which is a nonsense statement, because there are not any vintage control decks currently that are "already playing white".

What about Bomberman? Or Stoneforge Standstill?
here's another one: 3rd place w/Bant

One thing that you touched on that I really liked was the idea that previously uncuttable cards were now getting cut from your decks, and the idea of whether or not it was always worth it to play black just for Vamp, DT, and Will.  I think these are really deep topics that could lead to some great discussion.

I also like this topic.
For the most part, I put together rogue decks and more casual type1 decks and later tune them for competative play and add proxies.
 So, building decks without yawg will, DT, and vamp isn't new to me but I realized recently wotc gave us better and better critters every set. Now Grafdigger's cage.

Deckspace is becoming smaller and smaller to where players can't just cram every new card alongside the restricted list.
We are now at a point where we have more freedom of creativity in deck-building and it will only get better.

[chrispikula]

What about Bomberman? Or Stoneforge Standstill?
here's another one: 3rd place w/Bant

Yeah. I know those decks exist. Did you really think I didn't? Not only are they pretty rare in a top 8 these days, but they are also just not what Steve was talking about in the podcast. He was talking about Bob/Jace or Gush/Jace or possibly TezzeretAgentofBolas control decks, and then started talking about swords to plowshares. 

Steve I have to admit that I'm impressed with how upset people on here get when I say something bad about you. 

[Smmenen]

What about Bomberman? Or Stoneforge Standstill?
here's another one: 3rd place w/Bant

Yeah. I know those decks exist. Did you really think I didn't? Not only are they pretty rare in a top 8 these days, but they are also just not what Steve was talking about in the podcast. He was talking about Bob/Jace or Gush/Jace or possibly TezzeretAgentofBolas control decks, and then started talking about swords to plowshares. 

What I had in mind was basically something like what Kevin played this weekend.   He played with PLows, Trygons, and Planeswalkers.  The only difference is that he played Snapcaster instead of Gush, which makes more sense.   

I think Kevin's deck is really good.   

Steve I have to admit that I'm impressed with how upset people on here get when I say something bad about you. 

Ignore them.  I'm a big boy; I can handle it I appreciate your honesty. 

[chrispikula]

I am actually sorta kinda maybe considering writing a huge article about blue control decks.  Not sure this will really happen though.  It would focus on how some card choices cascade into other card choices, some of which are not immediately obvious. 

[Twaun007]

I am actually sorta kinda maybe considering writing a huge article about blue control decks.  Not sure this will really happen though.  It would focus on how some card choices cascade into other card choices, some of which are not immediately obvious. 

I think this would be a great idea. Its always interesting to get different perspectives on what a "Control Deck" consists of. Especially when there's differences due to location, pilot, metagame, etc...   

[Mr. Type 4]

I dont know that having Timetwister be the prize this year means they will recycle through the Power 9.  The first two alternate arts were smaller and unframed in the "giant card" format.  Its possible that they wanted to do Twister and Black Lotus in this new format.  Say what you will about the new piece from the scan, but i bet it looks really cool in real life mounted up in that frame. 

My piece is numbered "8 of 9" and it was not the 8th one given out, although the copyright year does say 1993-2008 and I did win it in 08.  All I'm saying is it's very possible that they comissioned that hourglass a while ago.  I do hpe that they dont decide to just keep reimagining the Power 9 when there's so many other Vintage only cards that could be sweet prizes. 

[Ufactor]

I am actually sorta kinda maybe considering writing a huge article about blue control decks.  Not sure this will really happen though.  It would focus on how some card choices cascade into other card choices, some of which are not immediately obvious.  

It needs to be done.  This is arguably the next level of deck building.  First is evaluating card value in a vacuum, next is in the context of a metagame (SWOT style), the succession would be synergistic relationships between otherwise strong cards in the same deck.

[BC]

I will be fairly disappointed if they choose to recycle the entire P9.  There are so many more "Vintage only" cards that I would love to see.  Off the top of my head, here are the cards I would love to see, in order of preference:

1. Mishra's Workshop
2. Bazaar of Baghdad
3. Time Vault
4. Yawgmoth's Will
5. Tinker
6. Library of Alexandria

[Smmenen]

I will be fairly disappointed if they choose to recycle the entire P9.  There are so many more "Vintage only" cards that I would love to see.  Off the top of my head, here are the cards I would love to see, in order of preference:

1. Mishra's Workshop
2. Bazaar of Baghdad
3. Time Vault
4. Yawgmoth's Will
5. Tinker
6. Library of Alexandria

This sounds like a great list to me. 

[Commandant]

I am actually sorta kinda maybe considering writing a huge article about blue control decks.  Not sure this will really happen though.  It would focus on how some card choices cascade into other card choices, some of which are not immediately obvious. 

I'd pay 5 dollars for it.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

I will be fairly disappointed if they choose to recycle the entire P9.  There are so many more "Vintage only" cards that I would love to see.  Off the top of my head, here are the cards I would love to see, in order of preference:

1. Mishra's Workshop
2. Bazaar of Baghdad
3. Time Vault
4. Yawgmoth's Will
5. Tinker
6. Library of Alexandria

I realize this is your preference, but I think mana drain needs to be on that list somewhere.

[chrispikula]

I am actually sorta kinda maybe considering writing a huge article about blue control decks.  Not sure this will really happen though.  It would focus on how some card choices cascade into other card choices, some of which are not immediately obvious. 

I'd pay 5 dollars for it.

If I end up writing something it will be free. 

[BC]

More list:

...
7. Mana Drain
8. Tolarian Academy
9. Demonic Tutor
10. Strip Mine

That should take them through the next decade.

[BaronSengir]

These lists are all great lists that I completely agree with. Do the article Chris; I'll read it for sure.

[evouga]

I second the call for more in-depth analysis of concrete play scenarios. These have been my favorite SMIP segments.

[Smmenen]

We'll do those again, but at the moment we are taking a look at Avacyn Restored.

Kevin and I podcasted last night, and reviewed the 5 cards that people requested we review on twitter.   Kevin will have it edited and posted in a few days. 

[evouga]

Looking forward to it. What are the five cards? Cavern of Souls, Griselbrand, Temporal Mastery, Reforge the Soul, Dangerous Bet?

[MaximumCDawg]

Looking forward to it. What are the five cards? Cavern of Souls, Griselbrand, Temporal Mastery, Reforge the Soul, Dangerous Bet?

Honestly, we've theorycrafted so many of these to death on the Drain that, for the first time, I'm wondering if Steve really will have a new point to make.  I suspect he will find a new angle though.  (Don't disappoint me!)