East Coast Wins Primer

[XxtSundaybxX]

The Beginning

I know this deck has been on the low for a while, however recently I have picked it back up and its still very competitive. So for those of you who are interested, this is my primer for the deck.

In Vintage there are now three decks you will likely run into at the top tables; Gush decks, Dredge decks and Workshop decks.  There are a few different variations of Gush decks in the metagame right now. East Coast Wins, Bob-Gush with Trygon Predator, and Cobra-Gush.  All three of these decks share a general core of common card selection, but have different strategies behind them outside of the actual engine. The Bob-Gush lists use Dark Confidant to consistently feed you cards as well as generate advantage with Gush. Trygon Predators also really shore up the Shop matchup, which some people deem to be bad. The Cobra Lists use Lotus Cobra to generate excessive mana to power out early threats and to push past Sphere effects from Shop decks. The last deck is East Coast Wins. This deck is a relatively standard control shell with a combo–esque feel to it. I started writing this primer a few months back and the metagame has changed slightly, but all of the lists and information are unaffected by these changes.

A few months back, I was really torn about what deck I wanted to play. I had played Workshops for a few months, but I really wanted to be playing a competitive blue deck. The problem was that I wasn’t happy with Dark Confidant decks. I really wanted to play Gush, however I wasn’t sure it was competitive in the current metagame. Shawn Anthony and I decided to put a list together and see what would happen. This is the list that we started with.

East Coast Wins Lists


East Coast Wins

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Preordain
1 Ponder
4 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Natures Claim
1 Time Walk
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Fastbond
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Nature's Claim
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Pyroclasm
1 Mountain

Shawn and I were concerned with Workshops, so the original list had 16 lands as well as a maindeck Ancient Grudge and a Natures Claim. This list was really solid; it was undefeated against Workshops in our testing. Mission accomplished. The problem was that in other matchups we were drawing excessive amounts of land. Also the Thoughtseizes out of the sideboard were very underwhelming.  Fast forward a few weeks:

East Coast Wins 2.0

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
4 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Time Walk
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Fastbond
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Sideboard:

1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Pyroclasm
1 Perish
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Nature’s Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle

Changes


We decided to cut the weakest cards from the deck and improve the blue matchup and just sideboard for Workshops. You never want your opponent to have a Jace, and you always want to have a Jace, so why not just play more than your opponent? Another big difference is the inclusion of Mental Misstep. We found that playing around Mystic Remora was rather annoying, not impossible, but certainly a challenge for the deck. Mental Misstep also addresses a lot of other cards in the format other than Remora, which is why it made it into the maindeck rather than just the sideboard. In addition to Remora, Mindbreak Trap was starting to gain popularity so cutting Empty the Warrens was best for the time being.  It was a strong card, but easily the weakest card in this particular 60.  Imperial Seal was another addition we made because it allows you to tutor for Fastbond and Black Lotus, two very common tutor targets.  The other big difference is the addition of Gifts Ungiven. This card is so powerful with the Tutors and Gush that a resolved Gifts usually means game over.

This deck very consistent in many ways.  In playtesting sessions, friends would say “you never mulligan.”  That’s because there are so many keep-able hands.  The deck is designed to always give you the most optimal lines of play.

Sample Hands:


Misty Rainforest
Fastbond
Force of Will
Sol Ring
Jace the Mind Sculptor
Merchant Scroll
Misty Rainforst.

In this hand, your first turn Sol Ring allows you to play a second turn Jace with Force backup.

Brainstorm
Misty Rainforest
Preordain
Blightsteel Colossus
Force of Will
Scalding Tarn
Voltaic Key

This hand is pretty obvious; resolve Brainstorm, ship BSC back, then sacrifice a fetch.  You have the three cards off Brainstorm and also Preordain to find another line of play, whether it’s Time Vault, Jace or Tinker.

Force of Will
Scalding Tarn
Force of Will
Mana Drain
Gush
Time Vault
Hurkyl’s Recall

You only have one land and you don’t have Preordain or a way to dig, but you have double Force of Will. If you draw another land you have Drain and Gush online.

Misty Rainforest
Underground Sea
Black Lotus
Mystical Tutor
Sol Ring
Brainstorm
Ponder

If I’m playing against an unknown deck I would fetch an Island here and cast Ponder.  Of course, I’d play Black Lotus.  Playing Lotus is important; if your opponent is on Workshops that Lotus may get trapped in your hand should your opponent lock you under several Spheres, or play a Chalice of the Void for zero.

In this instance the Ponder would show you Jace, Tinker, Mox Pearl. I would draw Jace, and then stack Tinker, then Mox Pearl.  You have a few options now, you could play turn 1 Jace off Sol Ring and Lotus or you could bluff Drain and then Mystical Tutor for Force of Will on your upkeep.  You could also just run the turn two Jace out, and if they counter it you can Mystical for Force of Will for your Tinker, or you could Mystical for Ancestral and also have Tinker. These plays all change depending on what your opponent is playing. If they went first and it’s possible they are playing Spell Pierce and then you wouldn’t want to run Jace into a Spell Pierce.

As you can see that the deck presents you with many options.  There are going to be hands that you will have to mulligan, you may have no lands, a hand with BSC and some clunk, etc.  Still, the list has been designed to be consistent, and as the test hands evidence, it is.

The Advantages of Gush


There are a few key advantages to playing Gush.  It allows you a land drop if you’re not consistently drawing lands. It’s also free when you’ve hit your second land drop. This is a scenario that comes up very often.  It’s your turn, you have three lands out, and you haven’t played a land yet. You have a Gush in your hand, and a Jace. You float UU cast gush, Now your opponent has to either let you draw 2 cards for free or counter your Gush. If they counter it, you just play Jace. If they let it resolve, you’ve just drawn two new cards and if you don’t have any different lines of play you can still play the Jace.  

Gush can be very tempting to cast, but there are some things I just never do. I will never shut myself off being able to cast Mana Drain to cast a Gush.  Let’s say you have two lands out and haven’t played a land yet.  You have a Mana Drain in hand.  You’re not going to want to cast Gush here because you will no longer have mana drain up. There are also very few spells that you would want to Gush in response to if you were tapped out.  For example, you’re tapped out and your opponent plays Fact or Fiction.  You wouldn’t want to Gush here because you don’t have access to drawing and casting Mana Drain and it’s not a game threatening spell. Now if your opponent goes for Yawgmoth’s Will or Tinker, and you don’t have a Jace in hand, you would want to Gush because it’s likely you’re going to lose, or be so far behind you won’t be able to get back into the game.

Mental Misstep is a feel card.  This slot is interchangeable to the metagame.  I’ve ran several different cards in place of Misstep.  Thoughtseize, Spell pierce, and Spell Snare are all options. Spell Snare is a very conditional card, but it depends on your metagame.  Landstill is really the biggest reason you would want to run Spell Snare over any of these other options since it will counter their primary draw engine as well as Null Rod and/or Snapcaster Mage.

Sideboarding:


Sideboarding with the deck is relatively simple.  There are really only a few matchups you have help with due to the fact that you have to dedicate so much room for Dredge hate.

Blue Control Decks:

Sometimes this can be tricky, but a rule of thumb I generally follow is this: if they’re playing Key/Vault I leave Grudge in.  I also leave Grudge in if they are playing Null Rods (Landstill.)  If you know they’re not playing either, then Grudge can come out.
If you’re playing Imperial Seal then that’s your number one cut.  If you’re not, then I usually go something like this:

-1 Claim
-1 Mox Pearl (or you could board out an Island)

Like  I mentioned earlier, if you are boarding out Grudge, I would leave the Mox Pearl in.
In turn, you board in two Red Elemental Blast.

Workshops:

Workshops can be broken down into several different types of lists these days, such as Espresso style lists, Kuldotha combo, or Cat Stax.  All of the sideboarding is the same with the exception of Espresso; if I need one more slot to cut against a deck with a full suite of Tangle Wires and Smokestacks, then I will board out Time Walk.

-X (useless disruption: Spell Pierce/Misstep/Thoughtsieze/Spell Snare)
-1 Preordain
-1 Mox Pearl (on the draw)
-1 Gush
-1 Gifts Ungiven

If you are only boarding in six cards, then you could leave the Pearl in.  If you want to board in the seventh card (a Pithing Needle, making the additions +1 Claim, +2 Hurkyl’s, +2 Ingot Chewer, + 1 Mountain, +1 Pithing Needle) you could, but be careful with this because you can shut off your own win conditions if they Metamorph it and name Jace, or either piece of Key/Vault (just something to keep in mind.)  

Dredge:

-3 Mana Drain
-1 Imperial Seal (if you’re playing it)
-1 Hurkyl’s
-1 Grudge
-1 Claim
-1 Island.  

If you’re playing Thoughtsieze, then they come out too.  If you’re playing Misstep or Pierce great; they’re insane at protecting your hate so they stay in.

+4 Leyline of the Void
+2 Jailer
+1 Pithing Needle

The Jailer and Needle slot are interchangeable.  You could, for example play one Jailer and two Needles.  I have seen people board in REB in this matchup, I just don’t personally feel that the 4x Chain of Vapor that they will be boarding in merits a pair of REBs.
 
Fish:

This can be tricky unless you know exactly what they’re on.  If they’re on blue creatures like Snapcaster Mage, Cold-Eyed Selkie, etc, then REB would come in. If they’re not then you can board in the Mountain and the Chewers for blockers.  The Chewers do kill Null Rod, so they’re not without any additional utility.  You can also board in Claim if you want to basically Time Walk them by killing a Mox of your own to gain four life, but it’s optional.  To make room for these cards:

-3 Misstep/Spell Pierce
-1 Imperial Seal (if you’re playing it)
-1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Dragon:

The board strategy here is the same as that for Blue Control.

You could board in Needles as well if you want.  If they board into Tezzeret, then REB will be an All-Star.  If, for whatever reason, they don’t, then REB will be okay, but not as strong.  The Needles will still be useful if you need to Needle Key/Vault, or Jace in emergency so you don’t lose/fall too far behind.
R/G or Any Aggro Hate Deck:

This is primarily for the R/X decks playing Magus of the Moon and small dudes.  I board in Chewers to kill Null Rods and to block their guys because the Chewers are bigger than their men.  I also board in the Mountain.  The cuts:

-1 Hurkyl’s
-2/3 Misstep/Pierce
-1 Gush (because of Magus)
-1 Imperial Seal (if you’re playing it).

If they’re playing 1 drop creatures like Kird Ape, and they also playing an abudance of REB effects, you might want to leave Misstep in.  Otherwise I would board them out.

Tendrils Combo (TPS Style Decks, etc)

+2 REB

-1 Grudge
-1 Claim

That’s pretty much it, it’s pretty straight forward.

Enjoy

Edited title and stickied thread - Prospero

[Will]

I really liked the primer and appreciate that you wrote it Allen.  The only major problem I have with it is that the Sideboard for the 2.0 version of the deck seems rather incongruous with the Sideboard Advice that you gave specifically in regards to Dredge where you talk of bringing in 7 pieces but only have 5 in the Board listed. 

[Onslaught]

Nice post.

I've been playing a Gush Control deck for the last two months, influenced heavily by seeing your/Shawn's results with East Coast Wins. When I play Gush decks without Ancient Grudge and other more control oriented cards, I'm always overly aggressive. That's pretty bad these days with the increasing pervasiveness of Flusterstorm, so I find myself constantly coming back to a more control oriented Gush build.

When I'm playing control, I like to have every "worst case scenario" covered. I got really tired of losing to random scrub beats, so I augmented the maindeck removal with a Fire/Ice. I even had a Lightning Bolt included for a while, but Misstep Mania has dissuaded that. The Fire/Ice really changes the complexion of the deck in the same way that running an Ancient Grudge does. I had been playing a techy Suicide Jace Vault for a long time, so I really wanted to fit some of the nice single cards like Bolt, Fire Ice, Echoing Truth, etc. I also run a Library of Alexandria instead of extra Islands, because I'm a greedy fool.

I also wanted multiple victory conditions, so I'm still running ETW. Since I cut Imperial Seal, I switched out the Vault/Key package for two copies of Clique. Clique is insane in general, and I've won a lot of games just by protecting it for 7 turns after a midgame skirmish. I rarely ever "just go for it" without having first seen their hand with a Clique. I probably lose some games where I should have been more bold in resolving a Fastbond or something, but the "all bases covered" approach has worked well for me with this archetype.

Anyway I think the main thing that drew me to your skeleton was the x2 Preordain. When I was playing other Gush decks with x4 Preordain and a Ponder, that's when I started falling into the trap of trying to generate too much action too quickly. When I play at a slower pace with a more controlling Gush build, the two Preordains are just a nice way to smooth out draws. I still like playing Gush decks with 4 Preordain and no Mana Drains, but I seem to do better with the more measured pace.

"West Coast Wins"

2 Vendilion Clique
1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Gush

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep

1 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

1 Fastbond
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Viashino Heretic
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Mountain

Since I'm currently using only two copies of Jace, I'm testing -1 Mana Crypt for +1 Lightning Bolt. I think the Crypt will go back in though...

[XxtSundaybxX]

I really liked the primer and appreciate that you wrote it Allen.  The only major problem I have with it is that the Sideboard for the 2.0 version of the deck seems rather incongruous with the Sideboard Advice that you gave specifically in regards to Dredge where you talk of bringing in 7 pieces but only have 5 in the Board listed. 

Thats my mistake. I started writing this primer a few months back, and my sideboard was slightly different for dredge. When i wrote the sideboarding section of the primer more recently, my sideboard has the "7" dredge hate cards in it.

Clique is a really good card, and Ive strongly considered adding it to the list but I feel like it changes the strategy of the deck. Making it assume more of a control role. I play the deck pretty aggressively. Its definitely a card I would like to test out, I just havent got around to it yet. Im glad you brought it up.

Fire/Ice is a card that I would use depending on your metagame. We are currently using ancient grudge and natures claim simply because shop decks are everywhere around here. If your meta is filled with x/1 creatures like bob,cobra,welder,etc then fire/ice is awesome.

I wouldnt be afraid to get a little aggressive with the deck. You dont always need protection for every bomb you wanna play. Sure there are certain bombs you want to make sure you resolve but the deck is faster than alot of decks out there so you can afford to be pretty aggressive. For example you can run Jace out on turn 1 without protection, thats why there are 3 in the deck.

Empty the warrens is a card that will always be on the back burner. We just got tired of running into mystic remora and mindbreak trap, so we put it down for a now.

Anyways I hope whatever route you go with the deck it works out for you, and thanks for the input.

[Prospero]

Great work, Allen. 

[Troy_Costisick]

Yeah, I was really hoping someone would do a primer on this.  Thanks!

Peace,

-Troy

[voltron00x]

I missed this when it went up.

Allen, thanks for posting this.  I also want to say that I love this deck.  As someone who never played Gush in previous Vintage eras, I felt a bit lost for... well, a really long time, with regard to playing Gush decks.  Something about your build really "clicked" for me and I found I was really winning a high percentage of games in testing with this build.  It gave me confidence to start to explore and brew with some of the concepts in your list.  So, thank you for that.

[Onslaught]

Have you had much experience against Landstill? Any general musings about the matchup?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Have you had much experience against Landstill? Any general musings about the matchup?

Allen (the guy who wrote this primer) is a good friend of mine (me being the guy that wrote the landstill primer) and we have tested the matchup pretty often. It is a close matchup, I will let Allen expand on this more if he wants

[XxtSundaybxX]

Have you had much experience against Landstill? Any general musings about the matchup?

Honestly I probably have the most testing experience on this forum vs landstill(unfortunately)(haha). Like Josh mentioned, we test all the time. He has been trying to make landstill work in vintage for years so pretty much every deck I play gets an extended amount of testing vs landstill.

That being said the matchup is not as bad as you would think. Like Josh said, it's almost even. If they're not playing null rods, it's a definite advantage for you because you have full use of your moxen, and the only answer they have to key/vault is counters. If they are playing null rod then it's still fine it's just more challenging. If null rod is played you need to decide whether it's crucial to counter it at that time(moxes in hand or access to a quick key/vault) or let it resolve and look for the tinker plan or just wait until you draw ancient grudge because it's the best card ever in this matchup. Jace is okay in this matchup if you can get a few brainstorms out of it, if they have factories it's just an over costed single brainstorm. You need to play pretty aggressively in this matchup because once they establish a counter build up it can be tricky to win. Use your counters proactively, meaning save them for your bombs, they have more than you do so just randomly countering things they play doesn't usually work out well. There are obv scenarios where you will need to use your counters defensively so use your judgement.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Like Josh said, it's almost even

Does this mean for ECW lists or for gush lists in general against Landstill?  If the latter was true, I'd be perplexed by Josh's recent results.

My own experience is that against a range of landstill pilots I would do around/slightly above 50% with Gush, but I consider myself an above average Gush player (grain of salt).  However, when I played against high level landstill players, that changed dramatically.  I vividly remember a long 0-X session against Shockwave.

In my testing creatures have been the biggest boon in this matchup as they provide a clock, can answer Jace, and provide parity under a standstill.  ECW being largely creatureless is one of the reasons I'm curious about the above claim.

[XxtSundaybxX]

In general gush lists have a relatively poor landstill matchup. Atleast creatureless gush builds. The reason he is more afraid if this build is simply because of the speed and the fact that a resolved null rod doesn't seal the game as he needs 2+ counters to stop ancient grudge and 3+ to stop claim in addition, if key vault resolve. Josh is a good landstill pilot, and the only landstill player I test against so I feel my results are pretty accurate. I'm not saying the matchup is favorable, just saying that compared to most blue control decks, it's not a 75/25 matchup for the landstill player. I would not be afraid to play this deck in a field of landstill decks. And like you mentioned it also comes down to the skill level of the gush player in addition. If you are really worried about that specific matchup you could address is it in the sideboard. We've considered cards like thrun and tarmogoyf but it's just not worth weakening other matchups to beat 1 or 2 players in the room especially when the matchup isn't un-winnable.

[Smmenen]

It's very difficult for Gush decks to play the control role against Landstill.  Every turn the game progresses, Landstill decks tend to grow stronger on the stack, largely in part due to the virtual card advantage of not having to run threats.   That gives Gush decks a small window of opportunity to try to out-broken Landstill.  But this, too, often plays into their plan, since they run counters like Mindbreak Trap. 

I've also found that the best way to combat Landstill is through Goyfs.  But, if a way is to found, it's with Fastbond action. Spell Snare is also very good against Landstill, but that exposes you more to Mental Misstep.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I feel like I am one of the better landstill players out there and Allen tests extensively vs my landstill lists so he has the best grasp on beating landstill...vs Allen piloting gush I feel it's 50/50....vs everyone else I feel it's more like 65/35 in my advantage if not more, and not because everyone else is worse then Allen, simply because Allen has tested the matchup more then anyone else and vs one of the better landstill players not someone just picking up landstill and becoming a testing partner.

And as far as tarmogoyfs beating landstill, I don't agree really because I have played vs gush with goyfs and predators, and at that point they are sacrificing control or bombs for creatures. The decks that give landstill a hard time are the fishy decks that play alot of creatures, and not a gush deck with a few creatures. I beat Paul Mastriano at te last blue bell event to win the player of the year race and he was running remora gush with Goyfs and predators and I beat him 2-0. And the round after me Paul played another person running my list and he lost to that too. In that same tournament I lost to type 1 tempo thresh, and that was a problem. The deck had goyfs, predators, delvers, and snapcasters, and all control. It's hords of creatures that landstill loses to not a broken deck running a few creatures. The times I lose to gush is when they go broken too fast and I don't have triple counter back to beat their double counter...

[median]

I'm just curious if this deck could be played without mox pearl and imperial seal, or if those are really necessary.
Any info is appreciated,
Thanks.

[TheProfessor]

I played this deck for a while, and Imperial Seal was great.  I usually cut Mox Pearl in my Gush decks in favor of another land or Preordain, but I cant say that I would cut it from this list. My best advice would be to test the deck and see whether or not you feel they are necessary. 

[aforce808]

Is Blightsteel Colossus still an efficient win condition?  Creature decks are being played a lot more, which means people will play more creature hate (swords, etc).  It seems like, while an early Tinker->Colossus can potentially get you an easy win, losing the colossus that you tinkered for can be rough and a lot more likely to happen now. 

Doug

[Prospero]

Is Blightsteel Colossus still an efficient win condition?  Creature decks are being played a lot more, which means people will play more creature hate (swords, etc).  It seems like, while an early Tinker->Colossus can potentially get you an easy win, losing the colossus that you tinkered for can be rough and a lot more likely to happen now. 

Doug

At the June Topdeck Games Vintage event there was one Vault/Key deck with Tinker/BSC in the top eight.  Tinker/BSC has really, really fallen in favor, in part because many of the decks that it was good in no longer seem to be as strong as they were.

[aforce808]

That's unfortunate, because I usually play some sort of control deck.  It seems like these decks have fallen to the wayside a bit.  I haven't played in a competative environment for quite some time now, so maybe it's time for me to try something new.  I'm eyeing that sweet Ritual Oath deck that is being discussed in the other forums. 

Doug

[desolutionist]

4 Burning Wish
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Gush
1 Fastbond
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
4 Force of Will
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Nature's Claim
3 Mana Drain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Imperial Seal
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Mental Misstep
SB: 1 Tinker
SB: 1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Island

I'm messing with Burning Wish on Cockatrice

[brokenbacon]

That is an AWESOME pile.

[TheWhiteDragon]

That is an AWESOME pile.

4x tinker is the hotsauce.  The fact that it can grab Ywin or utility sorceries is gravy.

[ErtaiAdept]

Looking for some input on possible ECW lists for the current Meta game.  I'm currently running a gush storm list, but would like to shift to a more controlling stable gush list which leads me to ECW.

Aside from the possibility of making a burning wish style list, what have people been playing recently?

[median]

Looking for some input on possible ECW lists for the current Meta game.  I'm currently running a gush storm list, but would like to shift to a more controlling stable gush list which leads me to ECW.

Aside from the possibility of making a burning wish style list, what have people been playing recently?

I know Josh has been tearing it up with this list http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44558.0

   
« on: September 15, 2012, 11:45:35 PM »

40 Players came to battle at this event and I have been thoroughly testing the list below with great results...

Goblin Storm (empty gush)

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
2 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Jace, The Mindsculptor
2 Repeal
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Gush
1 Fastbond

1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus

4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Viashino Heretic
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Spell Snare
1 Red Elemental Blast

[ErtaiAdept]

I'm taking a stab at an updated empty / ECW list for my weekly event tonight using Dack Fayden in place of Jace.  I feel like it synergizes decently well with Gush, and my be a good addition to improve the shops matchup.

Will post results after the event.

[mmcgeach]

East Coast Wins 2.0

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
4 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Time Walk
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Fastbond
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blightsteel Colossus

I did pretty well the last couple weeks with this list, but :

+2 Dack
+2 Snapcaster mage
+1 library
-1 ancient grudge
-1 hurks
-1 gifts ungiven
-1 preordain
-1 tropical island

Dack plus Jace is pretty strong.  You can just rely on the card fixing from Dack and use Jace's -1 to protect Dack.  Or use Jace's +2 as your win-con.  Dack plus Snapcaster is also pretty good.  And Dack plus gush is 100% as awesome as advertised.  The deck still feels a little weak to shops.  And also sometimes weak to dudes. But otherwise kind of insane. 

[XxtSundaybxX]

East Coast Wins 2.0

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
4 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Time Walk
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Fastbond
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blightsteel Colossus

I did pretty well the last couple weeks with this list, but :

+2 Dack
+2 Snapcaster mage
+1 library
-1 ancient grudge
-1 hurks
-1 gifts ungiven
-1 preordain
-1 tropical island

Dack plus Jace is pretty strong.  You can just rely on the card fixing from Dack and use Jace's -1 to protect Dack.  Or use Jace's +2 as your win-con.  Dack plus Snapcaster is also pretty good.  And Dack plus gush is 100% as awesome as advertised.  The deck still feels a little weak to shops.  And also sometimes weak to dudes. But otherwise kind of insane. 

I didn't know anyone was still playing ECW out there! Glad its working well for you. What does your metagame look like?

Shops was actually a very strong matchup for this deck, so I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that about the deck. However if you cut ancient grudge and hurkyls recall I would imagine the deck would have a hard time beating workshops, at least game 1. The newer shops lists with forge master, etc require a little more spot hate to deal with their large threats. But the main deck can certainly be adapted to beat workshops. Fish decks weren't very popular at the time this deck was in its prime, but again some of the same cards that can answer workshop threats can answer fish creatures, as well as kill creatures like bob and welder.

This decks two best match ups were workshops and Blue control decks. I wouldn't argue that the workshop matchup got a bit harder though.

[cvarosky80]

I've recently been working on an updated version of East Coast Wins myself too. It's been too long since that deck has seen the light of day, and I think it's time to bring it back to the forefront.....

[mmcgeach]

Shops was actually a very strong matchup for this deck, so I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that about the deck. However if you cut ancient grudge and hurkyls recall I would imagine the deck would have a hard time beating workshops, at least game 1. ...
This decks two best match ups were workshops and Blue control decks. I wouldn't argue that the workshop matchup got a bit harder though.

Well, I really wanted to try out Dack, so I cut the two anti-artifact cards, you know, cause Dack is an anti-artifact card.  In limited testing so far, it turns out pretty much as expected: Dack's hard to land against shops, but if you do its pretty much game over.  I think working on the sideboard can certainly fix up the shops match; but I tend to want a lot of basics against them and have trouble with the 4-color mana base and including all the necessary basics, while still using gush as an engine...  there's some problems but I don't think they're impossible to overcome.

I agree the blue control matchup is awesome.  Feels like you can't lose.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Shops was actually a very strong matchup for this deck, so I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that about the deck. However if you cut ancient grudge and hurkyls recall I would imagine the deck would have a hard time beating workshops, at least game 1. ...
This decks two best match ups were workshops and Blue control decks. I wouldn't argue that the workshop matchup got a bit harder though.

Well, I really wanted to try out Dack, so I cut the two anti-artifact cards, you know, cause Dack is an anti-artifact card.  In limited testing so far, it turns out pretty much as expected: Dack's hard to land against shops, but if you do its pretty much game over.  I think working on the sideboard can certainly fix up the shops match; but I tend to want a lot of basics against them and have trouble with the 4-color mana base and including all the necessary basics, while still using gush as an engine...  there's some problems but I don't think they're impossible to overcome.

I agree the blue control matchup is awesome.  Feels like you can't lose.

I never had an issue with the manabase. However when I played this deck there weren't a ton if hate bear decks with wasteland in addition to shops. One if the most popular shop decks was expresso which ran crucible Maindeck as well as catstax. I still can't imagine the manabase being that awful since gush negates wastelands. You don't fetch out red/green lands until you need them etc. The only basics I ran were obviously island, but also a mountain in the sb. No forest or swamp. Trop is only for fastbond or flashback on grudge/claim.

I haven't played in some time, though I just started testing again for champs so I was unaware of what Dack did. After looking it up if sounds great on paper but like you mentioned getting the mana can be tough. Jace costs even more and probably isn't even very good in the meta anymore. I would be strongly considering just cutting plane walkers altogether for the moment and add in some utility cards that can shore up a range of decks. Some creature hate would do wonders. Towards the end of playing the deck, I was playing Maindeck engineered explosives. It was insane. But that depends on how prevelant null rods are at the moment.

I really like Shawn's proposed list above with Burning wish. However I've found in the past, it looked really cute on paper but didn't translate to results on the table. I was often holding it with no really impact flu targets to tutor for. The 4x tinker thought is obvious, I'm just not sure I would want to slow that line of play down. Often times 1 extra turn is enough to make the different between winning with tinker and getting it answered. And by this I mean having to use turn 1 to wish for tinker then cast it on turn 2. Or even turn 2 and turn 3. In addition your opponent has atleast 1 full turn to try and formulate a game plan to stop/answer your tinker. After all is said above, I'm also pretty sure tinker->guy is pretty bad right now unless it's a certain guy. The metagame has changed so much now that it's extremely diverse. Which may result in burning wish being a better card right now than before.

@Chris...I would be interested in seeing what variation you've been working on.