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Author Topic: Lesser Used Vintage Playables  (Read 8477 times)
Onslaught
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« on: December 13, 2011, 08:47:19 am »

By a wide margin, my favorite cards in Vintage are the fringe playables. Those final techy slots in your deck can really give it a lot of personality, and perhaps even make it feel more like "your own." In most CCGs/Magic formats, the borderline usable cards almost always have a strictly superior version available. You wouldn't play a removal spell that costs three when you can get the same effect for two mana. Similarly, you wouldn't splash a third color for an effect you need if you can already get a similar effect from an on color card - and so on, and so forth. The cool thing about Vintage is that you get to choose from every card ever printed, which gives you access to a fair amount of unique effects that "have a reason to exist." In most cases, the cards in this list have a directly comparable cousin that sees much more play (example: Echoing Truth vs. Hurkyl's Recall). A few things on this list aren't like that (example: Blood Moon) - I just felt like including some strong cards that have been historically viable in Vintage and currently do not get played that often.  

Viashino Heretic

An amazing preemptive answer that can shut down Workshop decks all by himself. Only requiring one colored mana is extremely relevant, and he helps diversify your artifact hate while ignoring Thorn. He's also not a bad option against slower blue decks, as he can protect against Vault/Key or threaten to burn them out if they were to Tinker for BSC.  

Comparable to: Trygon Predator
Potential uses: Blue control

Negate

1U counters are not in high demand right now, but I wouldn't mind running a single Negate in certain decks. Snapcaster needs 1UUU to flash a Drain, and paying 2UU for a flashed Negate feels a lot more manageable. If your deck's goal was to set up a counter net on turn 1 with Mox/blue land, Mana Leak might be the better card for a catch all counter.

Comparable to: Mana Leak, Mana Drain
Potential uses: 4 color Snapcaster, Tezz decks

Dead/Gone

This is an intriguing card. For R, it removes Confidant, Welder, Lotus Cobra, etc. just as efficiently as Lightning Bolt does. You give up the ability to kill Jace and Lodestone in exchange for the extra out against BSC. It's nice to have a card that is good against random Aggro or Magus of the Moon decks while still having a usable effect against blue.

Lightning Bolt: Kills most relevant creatures, as well as Lodestone and Jace. Can be hit by Misstep.
Fire Ice: Kills most relevant creatures and can kill two x/1, but cannot hit Lodestone and Jace. Buys a turn against BSC, and can be cycled for 1U. Pitches to FOW. Cannot be hit by Misstep.
Dead/Gone: Kills most relevant creatures, but cannot hit Lodestone and Jace. Cannot be hit by Misstep. Cannot be REBed, unlike most other anti-Tinker bounce spells.  

Comparable to: Lightning Bolt, Fire/Ice, Echoing Truth
Potential uses: Snapcaster decks, metagames with lots of Aggro

Spell Snare

There's some discussion about Spell Snare here. We currently have an embarrassment of riches when deciding which counters to use. After FOW, you have anywhere from five to eight slots left to spend on some combination of Mindbreak Trap, Mana Drain, Mental Misstep, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, and Spell Snare. It gets even more complicated if you are running Duress effects that compete for space. Spell Snare is very metagame dependent, but still seems underused.

Comparable to: Mental Misstep, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm
Potential uses: Any blue deck

Wipe Away

For one extra mana, your BSC answer becomes uncounterable. This is potentially relevant with the rise of Flusterstorm...

Comparable to: Hurkyl's Recall, Echoing Truth
Potential uses: All blue decks

Vexing Shusher

Speaking of uncounterable, there may be a control deck out there that wants Shusher. He is included in RG beatz from time to time, but it wouldn't be crazy for him to show up in the sideboard of a heavy control deck in the future.

Comparable to: REBs/Flusterstorm, in that it helps you win counter wars post-board
Potential uses: a Keeper style deck

Echoing Truth

This sees a fair amount of play already, especially in an archetype like Landstill that doesn't dip into Green for more removal options. It answers BSC just as well as Hurkyl's Recall, while also getting rid of Marit Lage, Empty the Warren Tokens, or an Oath creature. The added utility of bouncing your own stuff can come up from time to time as well.

Comparable to: Hurky's Recall, removal spells like Fire/Ice etc.
Potential uses: All blue decks

Night's Whisper

This has seen tons of use in the past, and it still has shown up in a few brews lately. It will probably always play second fiddle to Bob going forward due to Bob's added resiliency against Workshops, but Night's Whisper is superior to Bob in many other instances.  

Comparable to: Dark Confidant
Potential uses: A deck that already uses Bob

Deglamer

This was seen in T8's regularly when Demars Control was more heavily played, and I still like it a lot. Nature's Claim is better in most situations, but the added cost of 1 mana allows you to answer BSC.

Comparable to: Nature's Claim, Hurkyl's Recall, Ancient Grudge
Potential uses: Any blue control

Surgical Extraction

Since the release of Snapcaster, there has been an increased use of Surgical Extraction in sideboards. It probably should have seen play before that, and it's time to start considering Surgical Extraction as a maindeck card. Hitting Gush or FOW is pretty devastating and usually extremely unexpected. Even in matchups where a juicy target never presents itself, it still has lots of other functions such as countering Mystical/Vampiric, snatching a key card when Yawgmoth's Will is going to resolve, and so on. A singleton copy doesn't add much against Dredge G1, but it's worth mentioning.

Comparable to: Extirpate
Potential uses: Snapcaster decks, Grow decks, decks with discard effects or ways to see the opponent's hand

Hide/Seek

Any kind of hate bear/beatz/aggro deck always hates to see Tinker. Even after a bunch of disruption, a topdecked tutor or Tinker can swiftly end the game while you were waiting to finish them off with a bunch of 2 power creatures. Hide/Seek is unique in that it deals with Tinker both before and after it is cast. Ideally you would snatch BSC out of their deck before they ever get a chance to play it, but being able to remove it from play is nice too. One key issue for Hate decks is usually the decision to run Null Rod or Chalice. Chalice is cited as the better anti-Tinker card, but pre-emptive removal cards like Hide/Seek may be a better answer. The strange color requirements relegate this card to a very specific BWR hate deck, but it still has some untapped potential.

Comparable to: STP, Sadistic Sacrament
Potential uses: Hate/Aggro

Hoodwink

It's like a bad Echoing Truth with some very rare/specific versatility added by being able to bounce a land. I can see some two color decks making use of it though.

Comparable to: Echoing Truth
Potential uses: Landstill

Noxious Revival

This has seen moderate use in a particular build of European Gush decks, but I think it has a lot of untapped potential. If you're using it as a Regrowth, it's rare for the free mana cost to make up for the card disadvantage. However, the added versatility of being able to Time Walk an opponent in the late game makes this card extremely worthwhile. It also becomes a pseudo victory condition when combined with Snapcaster...

Comparable to: Regrowth
Potential uses: Almost any blue deck

Vendilion Clique

This card is well known and sees a lot of Vintage play. Many people would consider it to be a Vintage staple. Even taking all that into account, it is still extremely underutilized. Neutralizing Jace, acting as a backup victory condition, acting as a backup counter spell, ghetto spot removal of Bob, gathering info about their hand...Clique is extremely versatile.

Comparable to: ???
Potential uses: Everything

Blood Moon

This doesn't have many analgous cards, since I think it has big potential in archetypes that would never consider Magus of the Moon. If you just click on a random top 8, it's astounding how many decks would have 0 outs against a resolved Blood Moon.

Potential uses: Aggro board, Red MUD, some kind of Standstill deck

What are some of your favorite fringe cards? Which of these cards do you feel is best positioned currently, and which have the most potential going forward? I really think Spell Snare will be seen a lot in the future if the Snapcaster/Bob Jace control deck continues to rise...plus it's quite good against the increasingly pervasive Landstill.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 08:53:16 am by Onslaught » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2011, 09:19:20 am »

Noxious Revival

Seal of Primordium/Cleansing

Balance

Tariff

Stifle

Meltdown

Reasons for some of these are here in the Unbroken Thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=42715.0
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« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2011, 09:59:36 am »

Jeeze, I didn't even know Meltdown existed.

You bringing up Balance also reminds me of Mind Twist. My friend plays Keeper, and Balance/Mind Twist are both that type of underused "if this resolves I automatically win" card.
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« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2011, 10:18:21 am »

Hide/Seek

Any kind of hate bear/beatz/aggro deck always hates to see Tinker. Even after a bunch of disruption, a topdecked tutor or Tinker can swiftly end the game while you were waiting to finish them off with a bunch of 2 power creatures. Hide/Seek is unique in that it deals with Tinker both before and after it is cast. Ideally you would snatch BSC out of their deck before they ever get a chance to play it, but being able to remove it from play is nice too. One key issue for Hate decks is usually the decision to run Null Rod or Chalice. Chalice is cited as the better anti-Tinker card, but pre-emptive removal cards like Hide/Seek may be a better answer. The strange color requirements relegate this card to a very specific BWR hate deck, but it still has some untapped potential.
I just want to point out that the described use is not ideal.  You maximize Hide//Seek's value by casting Seek after your opponent has used a topdeck tutor or Hide following Tinker (unless Tinker would assemble Vault-Key, then you respond to Tinker with Seek).  In practice, this card should never have a cost advantage cost to you.
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« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2011, 06:24:59 pm »

Fire/Ice

Excellent spot removal, occasional 2 for 1, buys a turn vs. BSC, buys tempo while cantripping, pitches to FoW.

Gorilla Shaman

Eats moxen, annihilates shop if given enough time, brutal in conjunction with Welder.

Cunning Wish

Requires you to build a sb around it, but gives you excellent utility, synergizes with Snapcaster, can be used as a flexible win condition, pitches to FoW.

Balance

Game-ending bomb, broken turn 1 plays, silver bullet vs. aggro.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 06:30:22 pm by bluemage55 » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2011, 09:15:25 pm »

Ninja of Deep Hours - turns factories into draw engines.  Lets you reuse snapcaster mage, trinket mage, and vendillion clique.

Green Sun's Zenith - fetches:

Trygon
Selkie
Shusher
Edric
Qausali
Teeg
Viridain/Ukatabi
Dryad
Noble
Goyf
etc. etc.
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« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2011, 10:44:39 pm »

Seeds of innocence was always good to me - 3 mana shatterstorm in a fish friendly color.

One interesting thing to note is that of all those cards listed by the OP (and thereafter) most are listed as useable in "blue decks", regardless of the color.  Funny how a cards useability is largely governed by how easily blue decks can abuse it without diverting too far off basic islands.
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2011, 01:13:51 am »

Seeds of innocence was always good to me - 3 mana shatterstorm in a fish friendly color.

One interesting thing to note is that of all those cards listed by the OP (and thereafter) most are listed as useable in "blue decks", regardless of the color.  Funny how a cards useability is largely governed by how easily blue decks can abuse it without diverting too far off basic islands.
I was thinking the same.

Lesser used Vintage playables:
Grim lavamancer
Runeflare trap
Jaya Ballard
Grand Abolisher
Tarif
Balance
Dust to dust
Enlightened tutor
Orim's Chant
Three wishes
Portent
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Trickbind
Wipe away
Forbiden alchemy
Fact or fiction
Lightning angel
Sarkhan Vol
Seedtime
Mind Harness
Mind's Desire
Hymn to tourach
Dark Ritual...

just to name a few  Wink
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2011, 02:15:18 am »

One interesting thing to note is that of all those cards listed by the OP (and thereafter) most are listed as useable in "blue decks", regardless of the color.  Funny how a cards useability is largely governed by how easily blue decks can abuse it without diverting too far off basic islands.

Makes perfect sense to me.  Blue decks are a sizable part of Vintage, and are generally capable of splashing a wide variety of cards due to the consistency provided by drawing/filtering, fetch lands, and artifact mana.  By contrast, the major non-blue contenders are either highly limited in the type of cards they can play (dredge, shop) or required to assign a high premium on redundancy and efficiency (fish).
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 02:18:13 am by bluemage55 » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2011, 09:11:19 am »

Serenity
Ray of Revelation
Argivian Find (props to my Meatbert)
Honor the Fallen
Aura of Silence
Root Maze
Nullmage Advocate

and my favorite...Royal Assassin
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2011, 09:50:27 am »

Shadow of Doubt

Into the Roil

Rushing River

Submerge

Back to Basics

Elephant Grass

Ideas Unbound

Sylvan Library

Sundering Titan

Emissary of Despair

Act of Aggression

EDIT: Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 09:56:49 am by Diakonov » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2011, 09:56:51 am »

Jester's Cap
Pulverize
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2011, 01:42:39 pm »

imperial recruiter

it tutors for pretty much all the best creatures in the format.

trinket mage

he can get sensei's diving top, nihil spellbomb, black lotus, engineered explosives, and a ton of other powerful artifacts

rootwater thief

destroys combo decks. plain and simple.

steel sabatoge

answers tinker, vault/key and everything in stax

stoneforge mystic

extremely powerful against landstill and fish variants.

stranglehold

another combo breaker, great as a singleton
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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2011, 02:56:13 pm »

Pernicious Deed
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2011, 12:15:27 pm »

Inquisition of Kozilek - Takes out creatures, unlike Duress, and can take out most Vintage cards other than Force of Will and later game stuff like Jace and Tezzeret. Smile
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2011, 12:53:05 pm »

Inquisition of Kozilek - Takes out creatures, unlike Duress, and can take out most Vintage cards other than Force of Will and later game stuff like Jace and Tezzeret. Smile

But with Thoughtseize around, and not played that much, why use this? Most decks now don't really care about the 2 life.
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2011, 01:17:29 pm »

Cards i definitely see potential in:

Viashino Heretic
An amazing preemptive answer that can shut down Workshop decks all by himself. Only requiring one colored mana is extremely relevant, and he helps diversify your artifact hate while ignoring Thorn. He's also not a bad option against slower blue decks, as he can protect against Vault/Key or threaten to burn them out if they were to Tinker for BSC.  

Comparable to: Trygon Predator
Potential uses: Blue control

Ive been playing with him for some time, and he is absolutely insane.  All you need to do is keep him activate, dont let him get killed, revoked/needled, and have a red source available, and stax is done.  Hes also pretty powerful against blue with their high artifact counts and makes them eat at least 12 if they choose to tinker.  His 1/3 body also allows him to block bobs, snapcasters, and most fish creatures.  Im definitely surprised he has not seen play in one the mono blue decks splashing red, landstill and turbo tezz.

Surgical Extraction

Since the release of Snapcaster, there has been an increased use of Surgical Extraction in sideboards. It probably should have seen play before that, and it's time to start considering Surgical Extraction as a maindeck card. Hitting Gush or FOW is pretty devastating and usually extremely unexpected. Even in matchups where a juicy target never presents itself, it still has lots of other functions such as countering Mystical/Vampiric, snatching a key card when Yawgmoth's Will is going to resolve, and so on. A singleton copy doesn't add much against Dredge G1, but it's worth mentioning.

Comparable to: Extirpate
Potential uses: Snapcaster decks, Grow decks, decks with discard effects or ways to see the opponent's hand

This card should definitely start making singleton appearances in pretty much every deck list, the exception being those decks running CotV.  Every deck has at least 1 card you only want to have to see once.  When you also combine this with the fact that if you have this in your opening hand your chances of beating dredge game 1 increase dramatically.  This card definitely seems like an all star.

Green Sun's Zenith - fetches:

Trygon
Selkie
Shusher
Edric
Qausali
Teeg
Viridain/Ukatabi
Dryad
Noble
Goyf
etc. etc.

There is no reason GSZ needs to be limited to a fish style deck.  The options for tutoring with this are almost endless and that you are only spending 1 extra mana and it shuffles back makes it that much better.

Sylvan Library

This is very comparable to sensei's divining top.  Except it doesn't get shut off by null rod and it can draw you extra cards when your life total doesn't matter.  This makes it seem like it very well could compete with top in decks with easy access to green mana.

Card i really don't like:

Hoodwink

It's like a bad Echoing Truth with some very rare/specific versatility added by being able to bounce a land. I can see some two color decks making use of it though.

Comparable to: Echoing Truth
Potential uses: Landstill

not being able to bounce a planeswalker or nonartifact creature seems so much worse than being able to bounce a land.  Especially when the other options all have other advantages over it than just that.  Echoing truth has blowout potential.  Into the roil can be kicked to replace itself.  Chain of vapor costs less mana, although it does have a minor drawback.  Wipe away is not counter able and can bounce everything plus some that this can.

Seeds of innocence was always good to me - 3 mana shatterstorm in a fish friendly color.

One more mana and they don't gain a trillion life.  Creeping Corrosion.

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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2011, 03:57:06 pm »

Quote
One more mana and they don't gain a trillion life.  Creeping Corrosion.

One mana against shops is usually what makes or breaks the game.
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« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2011, 11:58:27 pm »

I am so glad someone mentioned dust to dust, I read a tournament report where a member of team short bus was playing the man show and cut off all of the blue player's mana by dust to dusting 2 moxen - this is in my epic tourney reports list.
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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2011, 09:15:35 am »

Ankh of Mishra. Soooo many fetches and gushing these days.
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« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2011, 09:41:00 am »

Inquisition of Kozilek - Takes out creatures, unlike Duress, and can take out most Vintage cards other than Force of Will and later game stuff like Jace and Tezzeret. Smile

But with Thoughtseize around, and not played that much, why use this? Most decks now don't really care about the 2 life.
Because you don't always have enough money to buy a playset of Thoughtseize. Wink Plus it makes a good alternative to Duress in decks that run more discard than just Thoughtseize.
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« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2011, 11:23:43 pm »

I am so glad someone mentioned dust to dust, I read a tournament report where a member of team short bus was playing the man show and cut off all of the blue player's mana by dust to dusting 2 moxen - this is in my epic tourney reports list.

Yup - that was me...the good ol' days
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« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2011, 09:57:07 pm »

there's a ton of Red cards in this thread...that's why many player touch R from sideboard.
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« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2011, 02:24:39 pm »

Not really playable anymore, but I always loved Rainbow Efreet. Also, shout out to Psionic Blast and Teferi's Response.
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« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2011, 04:31:02 pm »

Cards I've specifically seen:
Danny Friedman play Looter Il-Kor.
Soly play Vedelkan Archmage
Mat Endress play Brass Gnat
Tommy Koliwth play Glen Elendra Archmage

Other cards that come to mind:
Deglamer
Augery Adept
Meloku
Wake Thrasher
Magus of the Unseen
Dystopia
Cabal Therapy
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« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2011, 10:44:14 pm »

Ahh Teferi's Response. At least it's still good in mental magic.

I vaguely remember seeing a list from Soly with Archmage as a one-of and lots of bounce. Archmage as a draw engine seems interesting. It's a shame that it costs  {2} {U} {U}. That's one of the reasons I wish someone would find a way to use Riddlesmith effectively.

GEA was a cute sideboard option for awhile. It was such a pain to play around when it resolved in the Painter mirror.

Augury Adept reminds me of Dimir Cutpurse and Sulllivan Solution.

Kowal was running some brew with Meloku, which he affectionately referred to as Meloku, the Massive Boner or some nonsense like that. Apparently it was house in the deck.


Random others that have seen play at some point: Root Maze, Transmute Artifact, Disrupt, Divert, Price of Progress, Ancestral Knowledge, Seedtime, Muddle the Mixture, and my personal favorite Lava Dart
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« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2011, 11:38:45 pm »

i've won soooo many games off the back of Glen-elendra archmage back when everyone in New England and their mom was playing Remora control
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« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2012, 03:20:32 pm »

Also, Ring of Ma'Ruf. Is this card just too expensive to use? Seems like it'd kick some ass in a Kuldotha MUD deck built to abuse it, with Metalworkers and such. Could SB Time Vault, MD 4 Keys -- something like that.
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« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2012, 03:48:52 pm »

Also, Ring of Ma'Ruf. Is this card just too expensive to use? Seems like it'd kick some ass in a Kuldotha MUD deck built to abuse it, with Metalworkers and such. Could SB Time Vault, MD 4 Keys -- something like that.

10 mana for a wish is an aweful lot to play, even for a Metalworker deck.  Cool idea tho Smile
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« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2012, 04:24:24 pm »

Ha, I just knocked together a blue MUD deck that has tinker, 3 jace, blue cards, kuldothas, metalworkers, and rings of ma'ruf with a toolbox sideboard in it. Really fun, try it out.

3 Ring of Ma'rûf
4 Metalworker
1 Voltaic Key
1 Tinker
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Island
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Uba Mask
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Memory Jar
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Timetwister
SB: 1 Time Vault
SB: 1 Voltaic Key
SB: 1 Sundering Titan
SB: 1 Mindslaver
SB: 1 Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Witchbane Orb
SB: 1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
SB: 1 Jester's Cap
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus

sideboard is just all the sweet colorless cards I could think of, haha
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