White Trash!

[Cane1024]

Sweet. Thanks for taking the time to test this.

[Guli]

Wow, sounds like a really interesting article! 12 decklists with all the color possibilities? When did you test all that?

[bax]

I built mono-white, although it has Mental Missteps maindeck, and then I built every other color permuation.   That's why there are 12 decklists: I designed and carefully constructed a decklist for every non-blue color permutation utilizing Cage.   I was impressed and surprised by many of them.  

White is extremely strong though, and I quickly discovered what was real and what was fool's gold.  

I am surprised by the colour permutation tests and curious about the results, i always flat out assumed upfront that the GW variant was the strongest off all.

Only recently i am starting to think that the mono-W might perform better in some meta.

About the mental mistep in my opinion are a meta-call - pointless to include them maindeck if you are going to face 3 MUD in a 6 turns tournament ...

[Smmenen]

It's very difficult for me to decide which color combination I feel is strongest.  As you can tell from my article, I like many of the color combinations for different reasons.  They are all fun to play and test with for different reasons.  

Wow, sounds like a really interesting article! 12 decklists with all the color possibilities? When did you test all that?

Over the past month.   I began testing immediately after I finished my DKA set review.   You can even see where I was going with my first post in this thread on Jan 25th.  

On topic to this thread, though: I don't think there is any question that mono white needs 4 Mental Misstep

[bax]

I got the chance of doing some test for a white trash version with Aether Vial (and without stony silence) and went vs Landstill (5-4), SnapControl (4-3) and TPS (3-1).

The deck has performed quite well, considering i was focusing on testing the core of the deck and how it would perform in G1 and did not have time to check out the sidebaord package.

Few comments below:
1. Have decided to remove three off color mox and add 3 ghost quarter (PS i play Aven Mindcensor maindeck instead than leonin arbiter).
2. Often going for sword of Fire and Ice is better than going for Batterskull when playing Stoneforege
3. Elbrus is just a win more. If you would win a match by Elbrus, probably you would have won the same match with Battrerskull
4. Agree with Smennen, Misstep are crucial in this deck
5. i think i could add a Sol ring as well as lotus, pearl, sapphire and petal.

the list i was testing last night is the below

6 Plains
4 Windswepth Heat
1 Karakas
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Grand Abolisher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mental Misstep
1 Batterskull
1 Elbrus, the Binding Blade // Withengar Unbound
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 SkullClamp
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Grafdigger's Cage

[withmangone]

Karakas? Unless Emrakul is a huge player in your meta, i'd think that would be better as another plains. Just seems highly waste-able without enough upside.

Am I missing an application?

[bax]

Karakas? Unless Emrakul is a huge player in your meta, i'd think that would be better as another plains. Just seems highly waste-able without enough upside.

Am I missing an application?

Emrakul-Oath is quite common around here.
Additionally Karakas with Thalia is a pretty strong perma blocker + Vial might be able to recast it right away !

The manabase of a mono-w is hardly going to be crippled by a single non basic land!

[vaughnbros]

I built the initial version of this deck, which my friend ended up top 8ing with.  Heres the original list for those of you that have not seen it:

1 Batterskull
1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sol Ring
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Glowrider
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
9 Plains
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

It won a majority of its games by dropping a turn 1 or 2 stoneforge into batterskull or mana denial via the 9 strip effects and the numerous answers to artifact mana in the deck, chalice, revoker, kataki, relic warder.

It was built back in last July so there are certainly cards that should be different than the original list.  I would definitely switch the SoFI to Elbrus, the sword was only in here for match ups where batterskull's clock was too slow.

Overall the initial build of the deck only had 2 bad match ups that we found from testing, Dredge and Big Blue.  Both of these were due to the lack of speed, which is why after testing we first cut the vials for null rods and then later on the null rods for off color power, then due to having so much acceleration we cut the 1 drops and included chalice of the void.  This much improved the match up against blue, leaving really only specifically ECW as a problem blue deck and Dredge as bad match ups, which we were never able to really solve.

Obviously cage solves both of these bad match ups so in reality you could probably just take this list and throw 4 cages in the sideboard.  However, finding a way to incorporate them into the main deck would probably be ideal. 

The Changes I would make due to cage would be:
-4 Chalice of the Void
-4 Ethersworn Canonist
-1 SoFI

+ Elbrus
+ 4 Grafdigger's Cage
+ 2 Thalia
+ 2 Path to Exile

[xouman]

Saturday I played local league, and this mono white deck made a perfect in the swiss and finished 2nd, losing 2-1 in the final after a long third match with very few lands for both players (opponent playing MUD):

Finalist-Adrià Martí-White Trash

Mana (21)

11 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine

Spells (13)

3 Grafdiggers Cage
3 Stony Silence
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

Creatures (26)

4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Thalia,of Guardian of Thraben
3 Student of Warfare
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Kataki, Wars Wage
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Porcelain Legionnaire
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Jotun Grunt

   
Sideboard (15)

1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Stony Silence
2 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Kataki, Wars Wage
2 Abolish
1 Disenchant
1 Serenity
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Relic of Progenitus


He won in the swiss to Wizards, Ichorid, MidRange Bant and Canadian. Not quite common here, but he won Snapcaster Control in the Top8 and then Expresso Stax in the Top4

[msg67183]

Interesting to see how much my deck has changed since I top 4d with it originally. This list seems pretty good. I might have to try it out.

[vaughnbros]

@Xouman: congrats on the good finish.  I'm just wondering why you are running 2 Simian Spirit guides and 0 red sources.  Have they played better than off color moxen?

[Smmenen]

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense to me either.   I don't understand the lack of Revokers, either. 

[Cane1024]

He got to the finals in a huge tournament with this. Can this deck finally move into the null rod based aggro forum mods? I think it's the real deal.

[bax]

If the meta is heavy in MUD, the spirit guide obviously play better than off color mox, especially with stony silence!

On the other hand when you have sotny silence and Kataki in play and are playing 4 relic warden the only things that make sense to call with revoker are either planeswalkers (who die farily quick when attacked by heavy aggro decks) or grim lavamancer ... not really that usefull.

[Smmenen]

If the meta is heavy in MUD, the spirit guide obviously play better than off color mox, especially with stony silence!

I'm not sure why that is a given.   That's only true if you only need to use the Mox once.  

If your opponent goes turn one Lodestone Golem, I'd rather have a Mox than a spirit Guide.   The Mox is reusable and helps you expand your mana base.  And if they just play one turn one Sphere, a Mox is also just as good.  

Mono white is a color combination with too many good turn one drops to not run off color moxen.   My list has even more.  Thalia, Arbiter, Revoker, etc are all too good to not play off color moxen. 

[msg67183]

I have been testing a list after looking at my original list and i have come up with this list:

Black Lotus
5 Mox
Mana Crypt
Lotus Petal
Sol Ring

4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
Strip Mine
1 Karakas
9 Plains

4 Stoneforge
4 Leonin Relic Warder
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Glowrider
3 Thalia
2 Kataki

2 Path to Exile

1 Batterskull
1 Elbrus

4 Grafdiggers Cage

Sideboard:

4 Porcelain Legionnare
2 Kataki
2 Path to Exile
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Surgical Extraction

This list has been testing well and its very solid, hate for all matchups.

[credmond]

@Xouman: congrats on the good finish.  I'm just wondering why you are running 2 Simian Spirit guides and 0 red sources.  Have they played better than off color moxen?

He plays mindcensors so pitching a guide with 2 mana on board can sometimes catch an opponent off guard.

[credmond]

I was testing Smennen's White Trash list from his article. It's a juicy list with some good things going for it, but it had a definite problem with decks playing Chalice at 2 against it.

The Adrià Martí seems to have a mix of stuff worked in that works nicely around the COTV 2 problem. Student of Warfare is a solid 1 drop and 2 x Porcelain Legionnaire main deck is also solid along with 2 x Aven in the 3 slot. Oblivion ring is interesting tech. An interesting thing also to note is there is no mental misstep in Marti's list.

[vaughnbros]

I was testing Smennen's White Trash list from his article. It's a juicy list with some good things going for it, but it had a definite problem with decks playing Chalice at 2 against it.

The Adrià Martí seems to have a mix of stuff worked in that works nicely around the COTV 2 problem. Student of Warfare is a solid 1 drop and 2 x Porcelain Legionnaire main deck is also solid along with 2 x Aven in the 3 slot. Oblivion ring is interesting tech. An interesting thing also to note is there is no mental misstep in Marti's list.

even though his list is slightly more diverse a chalice at 2 is still going to be brutal.  2 cards that are extremely powerful that you could potentially md or sb to beat it would be Abolish and Aura of Silence.  Abolish obviously gets around it and mental misstep while also having the option of casting it for free.  Aura of Silence is a double sphere effect on all artifacts and can pop to take out problem artifacts and enchantments, although it probably wont hit the table until later game.

[credmond]

I was testing Smennen's White Trash list from his article. It's a juicy list with some good things going for it, but it had a definite problem with decks playing Chalice at 2 against it.

The Adrià Martí seems to have a mix of stuff worked in that works nicely around the COTV 2 problem. Student of Warfare is a solid 1 drop and 2 x Porcelain Legionnaire main deck is also solid along with 2 x Aven in the 3 slot. Oblivion ring is interesting tech. An interesting thing also to note is there is no mental misstep in Marti's list.

even though his list is slightly more diverse a chalice at 2 is still going to be brutal.  2 cards that are extremely powerful that you could potentially md or sb to beat it would be Abolish and Aura of Silence.  Abolish obviously gets around it and mental misstep while also having the option of casting it for free.  Aura of Silence is a double sphere effect on all artifacts and can pop to take out problem artifacts and enchantments, although it probably wont hit the table until later game.

Devout Witness is another option. Works with Thalia and beats for 2.

[MaximumCDawg]

The best answer to chalice is probably Abolish, don't ya think?  Dodges chalice at 2 but still comes down immediately so you don't lose tempo.  Aura of Silence means you are shut down until you can collect enough mana to deploy it, and against shops, you may never get that chance.

[xouman]

I played that tournament, but I'm not Adrià :p. I'll ask him about simians if I have the opportunity, but most probably it's because LCV does not allow proxies, and he doesn't have off-color moxen. Besides, there are too many null rods and stony silences around, simian would probably be as good as off color moxen lots of times.

[Guli]

The best answer to chalice is probably Abolish, don't ya think?  Dodges chalice at 2 but still comes down immediately so you don't lose tempo.  Aura of Silence means you are shut down until you can collect enough mana to deploy it, and against shops, you may never get that chance.

This was inspiring. Not that I am on mono white, but Abolish needs a plain and savannah is a plain. So there is some synergy between Scryb Ranger and Abolish. Interesting. And in mono white, Abolish sounds solid indeed.

[Guli]

I was testing Smennen's White Trash list from his article. It's a juicy list with some good things going for it, but it had a definite problem with decks playing Chalice at 2 against it.

The Adrià Martí seems to have a mix of stuff worked in that works nicely around the COTV 2 problem. Student of Warfare is a solid 1 drop and 2 x Porcelain Legionnaire main deck is also solid along with 2 x Aven in the 3 slot. Oblivion ring is interesting tech. An interesting thing also to note is there is no mental misstep in Marti's list.

even though his list is slightly more diverse a chalice at 2 is still going to be brutal.  2 cards that are extremely powerful that you could potentially md or sb to beat it would be Abolish and Aura of Silence.  Abolish obviously gets around it and mental misstep while also having the option of casting it for free.  Aura of Silence is a double sphere effect on all artifacts and can pop to take out problem artifacts and enchantments, although it probably wont hit the table until later game.

Devout Witness is another option. Works with Thalia and beats for 2.

Devout is great when online but still suffers from the same sickness as aura has. You don't always get to 3 mana.

[psyburat]

This is coming a bit from left field, but with Mental Misstep and the approaching release of Judge's Familar, does White Trash have the possibility of running Force of Will?  I believe the statistical minimum for Force of Will to be 16 blue cards, including Force of Will itself.  Between Azorious Guildmage, Augury Adept, Phyrexian Metamorph, Gitaxian Probe, and any other possible blue card that doesn't require blue mana to cast, it might be viable.  Here is an untested starting point, expressed as a decklist, to grab your attention and conceptualize the rest of this paragraph:

MD:
4 Dryad Militant
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Azorious Guildmage
2 Phyrexian Metamorph

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Stony Silence

10 Plains
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Karakas
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Strip Mine

SB:
4 Abolish
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Path to Exile
3 Kataki, War's Wage

Like I said, just a list, and in no way expressing my opinion in any sort of debate surrounding the use of Stoneforge Mystic.

[bax]

This is coming a bit from left field, but with Mental Misstep and the approaching release of Judge's Familar, does White Trash have the possibility of running Force of Will?  I believe the statistical minimum for Force of Will to be 16 blue cards, including Force of Will itself.  Between Azorious Guildmage, Augury Adept, Phyrexian Metamorph, Gitaxian Probe, and any other possible blue card that doesn't require blue mana to cast, it might be viable. 

You could -- but you would be drifting the deck towards some more controll-ish build. Control is something an aggro deck do not do that well. Especially with a deck that do not have a solid draw engine you need to drawing threats every turns, not counterspell effects that protect your few and apart threats.

If then your desire is winning counterwar, think about inserting Caverns of Souls in your deck, that way you are sure you win the counterwar !

[psyburat]

This is coming a bit from left field, but with Mental Misstep and the approaching release of Judge's Familar, does White Trash have the possibility of running Force of Will?  I believe the statistical minimum for Force of Will to be 16 blue cards, including Force of Will itself.  Between Azorious Guildmage, Augury Adept, Phyrexian Metamorph, Gitaxian Probe, and any other possible blue card that doesn't require blue mana to cast, it might be viable. 

You could -- but you would be drifting the deck towards some more controll-ish build. Control is something an aggro deck do not do that well. Especially with a deck that do not have a solid draw engine you need to drawing threats every turns, not counterspell effects that protect your few and apart threats.

If then your desire is winning counterwar, think about inserting Caverns of Souls in your deck, that way you are sure you win the counterwar !

As a Noble Fish player, my aim was to conceptualize White Trash with Force of Will as a fish deck, as opposed to a hate bear deck.  Counterspells, therefore, aim to disrupt the anti-thesis to your clock, rather than engage in counterspell wars.

[msg67183]

I think that Return to Ravnica has made this deck actually very strong in the metagame. A proposed list that I think would tear up this metagame would look like this:

4 Wasteland
Strip Mine
15 Plains
Black Lotus
Mox Pearl
Lotus Petal

4 Dryad Militant
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Path to Exile
3 Stoney Silence
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia
4 Rest in Peace
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Simian Spirit Guide

Sb:
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Abolish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Porcelain Legionnare

This list seems like it would answer the metagame well since Martello is everywhere and fish is everywhere also.

[xouman]

If Martello is everywhere, why do you propose so many dead cards against it? I'm not judging your card choices, but it seems better against big blue than Martello.

[psyburat]

4 Wasteland
Strip Mine
15 Plains
Black Lotus
Mox Pearl
Lotus Petal

4 Savannah Lions
4 Suntail Hawk
4 Pithing Needle (naming Kuldotha Forgemaster)
4 Path to Exile
3 Stoney Silence
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia
4 Absolute Grace
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Simian Spirit Guide

Sb:
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Abolish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Porcelain Legionnare

This list seems like it would answer the metagame well since Martello is everywhere and fish is everywhere also.

I doubt it would.  If you're attempting to answer Kuldotha Forgemaster by prohibiting its ability to activate, you've done a good job.  However, it is much more relevant as a vanilla 3/5 in the Fish match.  Path to Exile is the only way you answer Lodestone Golem or Kuldotha Forgemaster without either committing multiple answers or attempting to fly over with a much slower clock.  The bolded cards are renamed to provide context as to their role against Martello Shops.