[Premium Article] SMIP: A Guide to Aggro in Vintage

[Smmenen]

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2582

Vintage author Stephen Menendian delves into the world of Aggro in Vintage, with a comprehensive look at what the various pieces of the color pie offer to the aspiring deckbuilder, and their applicability in the current Vintage landscape. In this 30 page article Stephen lays out the case for 12 different Vintage Aggro decks, including card analysis, explanations, and sideboarding advice.

Introduction

Grafdigger’s Cage is midwife to a new era of Vintage. It is not the sole cause of this new era, but it signals its birth and will forever be associated with it. Cage corrals many of the most potent strategic threats in the Vintage format, from Tinker to Dredge, and Yawgmoth’s Will to Oath of Druids. In so doing, it raises the status of finishers that aren’t restricted spells or mana cheats. It elevates the most efficient creature finishers in the game as serious win conditions, as opposed to secondary or even tertiary threats.

A common, and potent, board state of the new Vintage will be something like that: a board state with either Stoneforge Mystic or Tarmogoyf in play, and Cage keeping the opponent in line.

Tarmogoyf has long been a real Vintage threat, a staple in most Beats and Fish strategies, and a favorite of Blue decks who want a meaningful attacker for two mana, like the “Grow” archetype. What’s new is Stoneforge Mystic. Stoneforge Mystic, since the printing of Batterskull in New Phyrexia, has been a Tarmogoyf-level threat in Legacy for well over a year now. Its time has finally arrived in Vintage.

In this article, I want to take a comprehensive look at Aggro in Vintage. A few years ago, I began a series on StarCityGames, that was initially an attempt to develop competitive budget decks. Beginning with Suicide Black, and turning to R/G beats, my effort led me to believe that oft-marginalized Aggro decks could actually compete and be viable in Vintage. To that end, I created a G/W Beats deck and a G/B/W beats deck, the former of which Jon Donovan used to top 8 the Vintage Championship! In an environment where lethal dangers (Tinker, Yawgmoth’s Will, Time Vault, and Oath, among others) lurk around every corner, there is a real ceiling on the performance potential for those decks. It’s not to say that Beats decks in 2009 couldn’t compete or make top 8, but it required perfect play, and had lucky draw outs for dire situations.

While I wouldn’t say that Beats decks in the contemporary Vintage are favored strategies, the space for them to meaningfully compete with a much higher potential ceiling is now realizable. The recent printings are merely the capstone. Cards like Phyrexian Revoker and Leonin Relic-Warder all add to a growing list of tools and tactics. Until Cage, I wouldn’t be convinced that any number of disruptive bears would be good enough to compete with Big Blue decks, but now I’m convinced they can.

In this article, I want to comprehensively canvass all of the options available to the Vintage player for playing non-Blue Aggro decks. In other words: I want to explore the options for not playing Blue in Vintage, aside from Workshops.

Non-Vintage players may be surprised by some of my terminology or card choices. This article is about Vintage Aggro decks, yet Bears may not seem very aggressive. Vintage is such a fast format that playing creatures to merely attack and win the game hasn’t been a viable strategy in a decade. Even Workshop decks rarely use creatures that just attack. Juggernaut has been replaced by Lodestone Golem because Golem costs the same, and slows the opponent down at the same time. The only exception is Slash Panther, which is included because it effectively doubles as planeswalker (ie. Jace, the Mind Sculptor) removal.

In Vintage, with the exception of creatures that are cheated into play or the absolute most efficient beaters in the format (think Tarmogoyf level power), creatures are only playable if they generate card advantage, mana advantage or disrupt the opponent. Some creatures do both at the same time, like Snapcaster Mage. While there are a few exceptions to this rule, it is best to keep this rule in mind. I will survey those exceptions throughout this article, but the rule is broadly applicable, and will help keep you on the right track.

My goal in this article is to build for you what I believe to be the absolute strongest configurations of each possible Beats permutation. I will also attempt to discern which variants are strongest, and which variants may shine in particular kinds of metagames.

This article will also try to explain how to play these decks, providing principles of play, such as what to name with Revoker, how to sequence your spells, and set up the best defense and offense. This article is not meant to be a weekly article, but something more enduring. Part II will canvass the range of available tools and tactics available to the Beatdown player. Part III will present 12 different Beatdown options, based on each possible (non-Blue) color permutation. Part IV will explain how to play these decks. Part V will conclude with parting advice.

I intend to update decklists if I discover clear errors or obvious improvements. I also hope to revise this article at some future date, much as I have done with my Gush book, when future technology becomes available.

[birds of paradise]

If you buy this, do you get the other parts for free once they're released, or will you have to buy them as well?

[Smmenen]

If you buy this, do you get the other parts for free once they're released, or will you have to buy them as well?

Sorry if there was any confusion:  All 5 parts to the article are in THIS article.  This is totally complete, and was totally exhausting to work on.  That's why this will likely be my last article at least until April. 

The reason it says "First Edition" is that, some day, in the future, I may update this article to keep it current.  If that update happens in the next 6 months, I will request that anyone who buys this article receives a free update, just as they did with my Gush book.

[BaronSengir]

The free excerpt impresses me; can't wait to read the whole thing. I play Oath or Landstill generally, but am very excited to see other aggro decks come into Vintage and may even try them myself.

[MaximumCDawg]

You have encouraged me to part with 5 NerdBux.  This is my favorite article yet, since it's like a candystore of new decklists to tune and try out at weekly Vintage.  Good show!  It's a shame it's pay-only, actually, since this is the sort of thing that gets non-powered players or newbies excited to try stuff out in Vintage.

A few questions and nitpicks:

(1) Burning Tree Shaman requires Red and Green, yet you've listed it as a "Red" creature only.  You've listed Jagged Poppet and Tidehollow Sculler under both colors in their casting cost.

(2) You list Vexing Shusher as a green creature, and a red creature.  Why did you not include Cold-Eyed Selkie as a green creature?  If Ohran Viper makes the short list, why not look at Selkie in green too?  

Similarly, in your Mono Green list (which I like a whole lot, btw), but why do you use Viper over Selkie?  Seems like the evasion, and thus the card advantage engine, is superior to having deathrouch.  Also, why run Uktabi Orangutan over Wasps, Viridian Shaman, or other cards at the same casting cost with a similar effect?

(3) Where's all the Gobbos?  The entire cast of aggro Goblins is not included here, not even Goblin Vandal.  Any particular reason?  You link to a Goblins list later in the article, so you acknowledge they do show up from time to time.

(4) It is "Guttural," not "Gutteral."

(5) Why go 4-of Torch Fiend and only 1 Tin-Street Hooligan in R/G beats?  Hooligan is cheaper and leaves you with a pair of legs.  Your gameplan is to find a basic Forest early anyway.  Are you just that concerned about Magus shutting off your Hooligans?

(6) Your Naya list mirrors alot of the discussion we've been having in the Creative and Null Rod forums, and makes some of the same decisions.  I see that you've (wisely) determined that Lead the Stampede is not worthy of consideration in that deck, though!  I wonder why you include Kataki, though.  Is it a hedge against shops, or more anti-power?  You've got so much artifact hate already, and I wonder if Chalice would be a superior play to up your anti-Power 9 compliment.

(7) Regarding RB - I actually won a sanctioned tourney a few month's back using a BR beatz deck that transformed after sideboard into combo, using both Helm and Painter's cards.  The switch from game 1 Null Rods into game 2 artifact combo cards was actually very potent, although I imagine that once you knew what you were playing, such a deck would be very inconsistent, as you point out.

(8) Markov Blademaster?  Seriously? You justify it's inclusion because it defeats Goyf or Stoneforge on the second swing?  I dunno man, this seems iffy as hell.  Blademaster (and Elbrus, for that matter) are not pure aggro in the sense that you can play them and then commence beats.  It almost has: "As an additional casting cost, your opponent can have no creatures in play and must not play a creature during his or her next turn."  This card is Canker Abomination, not Tarmogoyf.  Heck, it can't even be cast off an Ancient Tomb, for pete's sake.  Maybe this thing showed its value in your playtesting, but I'm very skeptical.

I get that your list wants to play a small control game, so the Hellbent creatures are not really an option, but even so I have to believe that you have better beaters to choose from.  Genju of the Spires is serious beats when you want it to be, laughs at Oath and sorcery speed removal, though it does essentially have upkeep "RR."  Lord of Shatterskull Pass swings as a 6/6 after a modest mana investment the next turn, plays very nicely with Ancient Tomb, but is more expensive than Blademaster.  Countryside Crusher might require that you up your fetchlands, but comes down bigger and steadily grows, all the while providing you gas with your next draw.  Heck, even shop options like Juggernaut and Lodestone seem competitive with Blademaster.

Similarly, I can't see what Elbrus is adding to the White deck.  An evasive flying beater?  Alright, but why not just have a Sword of Whatever and Whatever, geared to your metagame?  Batterskull is already your go-to fattie, and the Sword can provide you an evasive threat for value without having that additional "opponent cannot block this or it's trash" clause.

(9) Also in the mono-red list, why no Chaos Warp?  Seems like, if Beast Within is good enough for mono-green, Chaos Warp warrants consideration for the same role in mono-red.

(10) This is a great quote: “You can play anything in Vintage, but first you must learn to survive.”  When people are interested in our weekly tournies, this is basically what I try to tell them.  Except it takes me 200 times as many words.  Wisdom for the ages!

[Smmenen]

This is my favorite article yet, since it's like a candystore of new decklists to tune and try out at weekly Vintage.  Good show!

That was the intended effect.  Glad you enjoyed the show

This was a very ambitious project, but as my teammate Paul Mastriano pointed out, as he was giving me feedback on the drafts, that's my style

For me, the fun of this article was the unexpected.  I had no idea that I'd be able to build such interesting and maybe even viable or the kernel of viable lists for example, mono green hate (The Forests Wins Again), among others.   I was really impressed by what was possible in some of these color combinations.   When I got half way through this article, I was skeptical that I would be able to do much with some of the more limited colors, but became really excited by the tools I found in the card pool.

I think that the reason I am able to break through some design limitations with these archetypes isn't just because I'm a more experienced and better deck designer -- although that's a part of it -- but because I take the time to really scour the full card pool.   As with my set review, I spent ALOT of time in Gatherer, looking at the card pool.  

(1) Burning Tree Shaman requires Red and Green, yet you've listed it as a "Red" creature only.  You've listed Jagged Poppet and Tidehollow Sculler under both colors in their casting cost.

My error: editor didn't catch it.  It will be corrected soon.  

(2) You list Vexing Shusher as a green creature, and a red creature.  Why did you not include Cold-Eyed Selkie as a green creature?  If Ohran Viper makes the short list, why not look at Selkie in green too?  

Again, errors.  Will correct soon.

Similarly, in your Mono Green list (which I like a whole lot, btw), but why do you use Viper over Selkie?  Seems like the evasion, and thus the card advantage engine, is superior to having deathrouch.  

I should have addressed this in the article, and will in future versions.  But ultimately, I felt that Deathtouch would actually be more valuable than Islandwalk.  Also, I like the 3 power, which means it survives Pyroclasm and can indefinitely block cards like Bob or Snapcaster.  

It's a close one, and if I were playing with Exalted spells in that deck, like Noble Hierarch, I'd probably run Selkie.    But I like Viper's other traits in this environment.

Also, why run Uktabi Orangutan over Wasps, Viridian Shaman, or other cards at the same casting cost with a similar effect?

Why Uktabi Orangatan (he sex monkey?) over Viridian Shaman?  I don't need to answer that question.  Why play Beta instead of Revised

However, your point about Caustic Wasps is well put.  Frankly, I didn't even see that card, and I did a search of every 3cc green spell.   That is definitely a potential sideboard card.  That card seems INSANE.  It's a quasi Trygon Predator that can be accelerated off Ancient Tomb in "The Forests Wins Again"

I will definitely test it, and add it to the article.  

[quote[

(3) Where's all the Gobbos?  The entire cast of aggro Goblins is not included here, not even Goblin Vandal.  Any particular reason?  You link to a Goblins list later in the article, so you acknowledge they do show up from time to time.

Yeah -- Gobbos is Aggro, but it's also combo.   I can't really bring much innovation to a Goblins deck, so I linked to recent Goblins Top 8s, and decided to focus my attention and yours to my mono red Aggro deck.   I originally intended to spend some time on it, but I decided your time and attention was better spent on the archetype I designed.

(4) It is "Guttural," not "Gutteral."

That will be corrected.

(5) Why go 4-of Torch Fiend and only 1 Tin-Street Hooligan in R/G beats?  Hooligan is cheaper and leaves you with a pair of legs.  Your gameplan is to find a basic Forest early anyway.  Are you just that concerned about Magus shutting off your Hooligans?

Torch Fiend is just a better card, and it's not really that close.  You can play it aggressively, etc.  I thought I made that clear   If I didn't, I did in my set review

(6) Your Naya list mirrors alot of the discussion we've been having in the Creative and Null Rod forums, and makes some of the same decisions.  I see that you've (wisely) determined that Lead the Stampede is not worthy of consideration in that deck, though!  I wonder why you include Kataki, though.  Is it a hedge against shops, or more anti-power?  You've got so much artifact hate already, and I wonder if Chalice would be a superior play to up your anti-Power 9 compliment.

I have to confess that Kataki is a card I routinely underestimate in theory,  and then proves itself to be utterly amazing in practice.   You have to keep in mind that it basically turns off every Mox.  Every Mox just turns off every turn.  It's like a Null Rod that attacks.  It's unreal.   And then, it makes it difficult for people to assemble Time Vault or use Top, etc.  Finally, it is a hoser agianst Shops.  

Kataki should probably be a 3-of in every Beats list with white, but I coudn't always find room for the 3rd.   Revoker serves a different function (actually turning off Time Vault and Jaces etc), and Stony Silence won't always be drawn, nor is it a Workshop hoser.  

(8) Markov Blademaster?  Seriously? You justify it's inclusion because it defeats Goyf or Stoneforge on the second swing?  I dunno man, this seems iffy as hell.  Blademaster (and Elbrus, for that matter) are not pure aggro in the sense that you can play them and then commence beats.  It almost has: "As an additional casting cost, your opponent can have no creatures in play and must not play a creature during his or her next turn."

I assume you have played Vintage before

Seriously though, with Bolts and Red Blasts, that will often be the case.  

I have included Blademaster in the mono-red deck simply as an aggressive option. The clock is unreal, and the green decks get Goyf, and the white decks get SFM.   The red deck seemed to like Blademaster, which can even be played on turn one with a Mox and a Spirit Guide.

 This card is Canker Abomination, not Tarmogoyf.  Heck, it can't even be cast off an Ancient Tomb, for pete's sake.  Maybe this thing showed its value in your playtesting, but I'm very skeptical.

It's inconsistent, but it serves a purpose.

I get that your list wants to play a small control game, so the Hellbent creatures are not really an option, but even so I have to believe that you have better beaters to choose from.  Genju of the Spires is serious beats when you want it to be, laughs at Oath and sorcery speed removal, though it does essentially have upkeep "RR."  Lord of Shatterskull Pass swings as a 6/6 after a modest mana investment the next turn, plays very nicely with Ancient Tomb, but is more expensive than Blademaster.  Countryside Crusher might require that you up your fetchlands, but comes down bigger and steadily grows, all the while providing you gas with your next draw.  Heck, even shop options like Juggernaut and Lodestone seem competitive with Blademaster.

The Genju thing is an interesting point, but the other cards are just too expensive.  Blademaster is a reliable turn two drop, and needs to be dealt with or you win the game.   It's just a red goyf in this deck.

Similarly, I can't see what Elbrus is adding to the White deck.  An evasive flying beater?  Alright, but why not just have a Sword of Whatever and Whatever, geared to your metagame?  Batterskull is already your go-to fattie, and the Sword can provide you an evasive threat for value without having that additional "opponent cannot block this or it's trash" clause.

Well, in testing Elbrus is just the stupid tutor target.   What I like is that it's far from easy to deal with.   Often Batterskull is just as good, but it's nice to have a turn faster win if needed.

(9) Also in the mono-red list, why no Chaos Warp?  Seems like, if Beast Within is good enough for mono-green, Chaos Warp warrants consideration for the same role in mono-red.

Whoops.  Didn't consider it or test it.   You're catching my omissions it seems, but the good news is that I've caught things that most people missed.  I will definitely test it and update this article.

(10) This is a great quote: “You can play anything in Vintage, but first you must learn to survive.”  When people are interested in our weekly tournies, this is basically what I try to tell them.  Except it takes me 200 times as many words.  Wisdom for the ages!

You should follow my twitter account then

[madmanmike25]

If you didn't know, Chaos Warp is excellent when combined with Cage.  You can't put a revealed creature into play from the library.

[MaximumCDawg]

I assume you have played Vintage before

Seriously though, with Bolts and Red Blasts, that will often be the case.  

...

The Genju thing is an interesting point, but the other cards are just too expensive.  Blademaster is a reliable turn two drop, and needs to be dealt with or you win the game.   It's just a red goyf in this deck.

Sure, lots of decks in Vintage don't run creatures, and lots that do only run a smattering.  I also grant you that your testing results probably provide more proof than any speculation or testing I've done.  I still feel like Blademaster is as conditional as Arrogant Bloodlord or Canker Abomination.

The more I think about it though, the more I wonder if this creature might work just because it's the only red three-drop around that wins in three swings unassisted.  Sort of like how Blightsteel muscles out the competing Tinkerbots simply because it is faster.  Is that really the bottom line?  You play it by holding onto it until you can open a hole, then stab her in there quickly to shut down the game?  In other words, it's not an early game beatstick exactly, it's doing more of what Tinker would do in a blue deck?

Whoops.  Didn't consider it or test it.   You're catching my omissions it seems, but the good news is that I've caught things that most people missed.  I will definitely test it and update this article.

Most serious people, yes, but we non-powered weirdos in the creative forum have been toying with cards like this since forever.  I'm excited to have an established professional looking more at these kind of decks, because you can add the experienced insight many of us probably lack

[BaronSengir]

Now that I have read the article I have to say I like what I see. Thanks for all the decks, and not only that but what to sideboard in depending on your opponents deck. You even had some opening hand scenarios and a mana manipulation section; I love those.

[Smmenen]

I assume you have played Vintage before

Seriously though, with Bolts and Red Blasts, that will often be the case.  

...

The Genju thing is an interesting point, but the other cards are just too expensive.  Blademaster is a reliable turn two drop, and needs to be dealt with or you win the game.   It's just a red goyf in this deck.

Sure, lots of decks in Vintage don't run creatures, and lots that do only run a smattering.  I also grant you that your testing results probably provide more proof than any speculation or testing I've done.  I still feel like Blademaster is as conditional as Arrogant Bloodlord or Canker Abomination.

The more I think about it though, the more I wonder if this creature might work just because it's the only red three-drop around that wins in three swings unassisted.  Sort of like how Blightsteel muscles out the competing Tinkerbots simply because it is faster.  Is that really the bottom line?  You play it by holding onto it until you can open a hole, then stab her in there quickly to shut down the game?  In other words, it's not an early game beatstick exactly, it's doing more of what Tinker would do in a blue deck?

Not really.  I discussed Blademaster extensively in my set review, so let me just copy and paste that here to try and generate some clarity.

Markov Blademaster

This card is somewhat confusing. Let me explain how it works.

You resolve Markov Blademaster, and pass the turn. Next turn, you attack. Supposing that he’s unblocked, he deals 1 first strike damage, and then gains a +1/+1 counter. Then, he deals 2 regular combat damage, and gets another +1/+1 counter. So far, he’s done 3 damage.

The next turn, you attack, and if he’s unblocked he deals 3 first strike damage, then gains a +1/+1 counter, and deals 4 regular combat damage, and gets another +1/+1 counter. This turn he’s deal 7 damage, and 10 damage so far this game.

The following turn, he attacks. And if he is unblocked, he deals 5 first strike damage, then gains a +1/+1 counter, and deals 6 regular combat damage, and gains another +1/+1 counter. This turn, he’s dealt 11 damage, and 21 damage so far this game.

In effect, he gains two power every turn, if he’s unblocked. This is a pretty fast clock. However, it is a clock that operates only if he is unblocked. If he can get the first attack in unblocked, then he can likely survive future combat.

The main constraint on this creature’s playability is clearly his casting cost. The creature deals damage fast enough to see play in Vintage, and Vintage is the format where he’s most likely to attack unblocked.   There are very few decks in Vintage that can quickly assemble RR mana. Blue-Black control decks typically run one or two Volcanic Islands, and would not run this creature over Tarmogoyf or even Kiln Fiend, which would likely win the game as quickly on average.

Beats decks, particularly a mono red, W/R or W/R/x Beats hater deck might be able to use this creature.   That seems to me to be the most plausible home for him. It would maximize his tempo qualities while providing the red mana necessary to reliably cast him. Those decks likely run Simian Spirit Guide as well, making him a possible turn two – or even turn one, with a Mox, play. That could be a truly terrifying prospect. He is a remotely playable Vintage card given the possibilities I just mentioned.

Essentially, this card is a beater, and a fast one.

This is much faster than Arrogant Bloodlord or Canker Abomination.  Those aren't even close comparisons.   Phyrexian Negator compares favorably to both.   

Markov Blademaster is simply the most efficient and fast beater there is, provided you can clear away blocker on the first attack or unless the first blocker is just a one power creature.   It's purpose in this deck is simply a Goyf like power creature.

Whoops.  Didn't consider it or test it.   You're catching my omissions it seems, but the good news is that I've caught things that most people missed.  I will definitely test it and update this article.

Most serious people, yes, but we non-powered weirdos in the creative forum have been toying with cards like this since forever.  I'm excited to have an established professional looking more at these kind of decks, because you can add the experienced insight many of us probably lack

Thanks.   Some of the decks in this article are very exciting.  It is alot easier for me to simply write this article than post in every single Beats thread that pops up    I'll be happy to answer any questions anyone else may have about 1) the decks in this article, or 2) decks you've designed in the same color as the decks I've designed.  Post your decks here and I'll give you feedback.   

As I've said before, one of the reasons decks like these haven't traditionally succeeded has as much to do with the fact that the best players and designers in the format haven't focused on them as much as any strategic disadvantage.   With the various Beats permutations I tried to innovate a few years ago, I hoped to correct for that.   With the printings of the last year, these decks have taken a great step forward, and I thought I would write about it.   

[serracollector]

Steve, I unfortunately have not read the article, but noticed posts about a "green deck wins".  I have been trying for a long time to make a mono green deck, and have just found that unlike mono red (magus, pyroblast, chalice, rod, 9 strips),  and mono white (thalia/glowrider/aven mindcensor etc, chalice, rod/stony silence, 9 strips) that green doesn't have any "stoppers" that can be maindecked for Big Blue/Combo.  Yes green gets 4 rods and 4 chalice, and presumably 5 strips, and even fast accel thru ESG, but when you go Goyf, Goyf, swing, and they simply tutor up y win or tinker, you lose.  Green has no way to hose mana, stop searching, or to slow the opponent down outside of ROD/Chalice.  So the safe assumption is your deck would have to maindeck 4 chalice, 4 rod, and 4 cage to even try to keep up with any blue based combo deck?  After 4 goyf and 4 esg tho, wats that leave you room for?  20 more threats?  Seal of Primordium?  Vipers?  Equipment?  Moxen?  Sylvan Library? 

I just haven't been able to make any green lists successful vs a combo meta.  MUD, sure easy, even control, we get choke/city of solitude, powerhouses sure, but wat do you do against ritual/gush decks, other than pray for a chalice at 1 or..... I dont even know an answer for gush in green?  Hall of gemstones?

I was just wondering how you think it is possible to make a competitive mono green list thats just aggro, but still has enuff control to stop combo/y win/tinker?

[credmond]

Steve, I unfortunately have not read the article, but noticed posts about a "green deck wins".  I have been trying for a long time to make a mono green deck, and have just found that unlike mono red (magus, pyroblast, chalice, rod, 9 strips),  and mono white (thalia/glowrider/aven mindcensor etc, chalice, rod/stony silence, 9 strips) that green doesn't have any "stoppers" that can be maindecked for Big Blue/Combo.  Yes green gets 4 rods and 4 chalice, and presumably 5 strips, and even fast accel thru ESG, but when you go Goyf, Goyf, swing, and they simply tutor up y win or tinker, you lose.  Green has no way to hose mana, stop searching, or to slow the opponent down outside of ROD/Chalice.  So the safe assumption is your deck would have to maindeck 4 chalice, 4 rod, and 4 cage to even try to keep up with any blue based combo deck?  After 4 goyf and 4 esg tho, wats that leave you room for?  20 more threats?  Seal of Primordium?  Vipers?  Equipment?  Moxen?  Sylvan Library? 

I just haven't been able to make any green lists successful vs a combo meta.  MUD, sure easy, even control, we get choke/city of solitude, powerhouses sure, but wat do you do against ritual/gush decks, other than pray for a chalice at 1 or..... I dont even know an answer for gush in green?  Hall of gemstones?

I was just wondering how you think it is possible to make a competitive mono green list thats just aggro, but still has enuff control to stop combo/y win/tinker?

guttural response answers gush, mental misstep answers rituals

[Smmenen]

Steve, I unfortunately have not read the article, but noticed posts about a "green deck wins".  I have been trying for a long time to make a mono green deck, and have just found that unlike mono red (magus, pyroblast, chalice, rod, 9 strips),  and mono white (thalia/glowrider/aven mindcensor etc, chalice, rod/stony silence, 9 strips) that green doesn't have any "stoppers" that can be maindecked for Big Blue/Combo.  Yes green gets 4 rods and 4 chalice, and presumably 5 strips, and even fast accel thru ESG, but when you go Goyf, Goyf, swing, and they simply tutor up y win or tinker, you lose.  Green has no way to hose mana, stop searching, or to slow the opponent down outside of ROD/Chalice.  So the safe assumption is your deck would have to maindeck 4 chalice, 4 rod, and 4 cage to even try to keep up with any blue based combo deck?  After 4 goyf and 4 esg tho, wats that leave you room for?  20 more threats?  Seal of Primordium?  Vipers?  Equipment?  Moxen?  Sylvan Library?  

I just haven't been able to make any green lists successful vs a combo meta.  MUD, sure easy, even control, we get choke/city of solitude, powerhouses sure, but wat do you do against ritual/gush decks, other than pray for a chalice at 1 or..... I dont even know an answer for gush in green?  Hall of gemstones?

I was just wondering how you think it is possible to make a competitive mono green list thats just aggro, but still has enuff control to stop combo/y win/tinker?

No, no, no.   Not "Green Deck Wins."  It's "The Forests Wins Again."  

As I said earlier in this thread, I had little hope that even with my experience and insight that I could create, design or tune a competitive mono-green deck.   In the non-blue colors, White gives the most disruptive creatures, followed by red, and red and black give you the most disruptive efficient spells (Thoughtsieze, Pyroblast, etc).  

The main reason to play green in Beats deck is 1) to play the gold WG creatures like Pridemage and Teeg, and 2) Goyf.  I was tempted, at the outset, to actually just write off mono-green as implausible, but that was too lazy.  

One reason these decks so rarely appear is precisely that reason!  I dug into gatherer, and dug into my own card pool binders and list of playables (which is in this article), and I became really excited about what I was putting together, and I had a blast playing it too.  

The key design innovation that really opened up the other options was borrowing a tech from The Mountains Wins Again: namely, Ancient Tomb & City of Traitors.  With ESG as additional acceleration, lots of options opened up.   You can not only accelerate out, for example, turn one Revoker, but turn one or turn Choke, Crucible, etc.   Then, the card that really proved insane was Beast Within.   I don't think I even emphasized in my article how insane that card is.  

I don't want to spoil all of the tech in my decks, but that should give you a taste for where I was going.  

As for the question: how do you beat Tinker/Yawg Will?   There is this card called Grafdigger's Case :p    Seriously, read the teaser in the first post

As credmond pointed out, my mono-green deck has maindeck Mental MIsstep and sideboard Guttural Response.   You could even run one or more maindeck, although I didn't.  


 * * *
The deck I had the hardest time with was the Naya list.  It should probably be - 1 Torch Fiend and + 1 Goyf or Teeg.

[Smmenen]

If you didn't know, Chaos Warp is excellent when combined with Cage.  You can't put a revealed creature into play from the library.

Since I didn't consider Chaos Warp in the mono red list, I hadn't considered this, but it's an excellent point. 

I will be testing this ASAP.  It seems insane in The Mountains Wins Again with Cage in play.  Sheesh.  How unreal. 

[credmond]

It would be awesome if guttural response could take care of tinker and jace and trygon, but it only handles blue instants like Gush. Still very handy for mono green, though.

[Troy_Costisick]

If you didn't know, Chaos Warp is excellent when combined with Cage.  You can't put a revealed creature into play from the library.

That is a really cool interaction.  I hadn't even thought of it.  Both cards are good on their own (which is necessary for them to be playable) and even better together!  Nice catch

[MaximumCDawg]

Cage + Warp is cute, but it's sort of a corner case.  They're more likely to reveal mana sources, and Cage doesn't stop that.  It's nice that you are protected from the random blowout, though, and removes uncertainty when casting Warp against another aggro deck.

It would be awesome if guttural response could take care of tinker and jace and trygon, but it only handles blue instants like Gush. Still very handy for mono green, though.

Someday, someone will be asleep at the Design helm and they will print Green Elemental Blast.

[BaronSengir]

I'm really liking the Mono White Beats deck you have Steve. I tested it against my Oath deck and it curb stomped Oath as I expected. I'm wondering how it will do against other Blue decks and Dredge which are so common in my meta.

[Smmenen]

If you can protect the Cage with Mental Misstep or buy enough time with Cage in play with Heretic or Grunt to eat up their GY or Wasteland their mana sources, you will be fine against Dredge.

It tested really well against blue control.  

[Valorale]

I tested 2 of the decks tonight, the all white one and the B/R one.

White one was okay, i went about 50/50 against a standard blue build. Stony Silence and Grafdigger together really shuts down standard blue deck as it takes away their two primary win conditions. The nice thing is that so many of the creatures are a real threat that demand immediate attention. Thalia, Leonin and Stoneforge are all miserable to work around.

The B/R deck .. needs work on the very thing that was mentioned in the article; opposing aggro decks. Playing against a gush gro deck a resolved Tarmogoyf usually was a death sentence unless I could get a creature out with mana to play a lightning bolt and pray they dont have a counter. The worst ... one game my opponent resolved Tinker to get Blightsteel and passed. I have a demonic consultation in hand and an untapped swamp, I play it on their endstep and start thinking about what I would name to deal with Blightsteel. I couldnt think of anything, I went and looked at the decklist, there was nothing I could name that would save me.

[Smmenen]

I tested 2 of the decks tonight, the all white one and the B/R one.

White one was okay, i went about 50/50 against a standard blue build. Stony Silence and Grafdigger together really shuts down standard blue deck as it takes away their two primary win conditions. The nice thing is that so many of the creatures are a real threat that demand immediate attention. Thalia, Leonin and Stoneforge are all miserable to work around.

I can't decide if my favorite turn one play is Leonin Arbiter or Thalia.  They both walk the opponent into great turn twos: Arbiter + turn two Ghost Quarter is brutal.  But Thalia + turn two Kataki or Revoker is equally amazing.   I think I slightly prefer Thalia.  I also love playing turn two Ghost Quarter, to get the opponent to fetch a dual, which you Waste on turn three.  LOL. 

What kind of games did you lose?  It's very hard for blue decks to go broken with 4 Mental Misstep, and all of the other hate you have, I've found.  That's why Cage is so great. 

I had the pleasure to do more in person testing tonight, and I played the mono white list (card for card).  

I had already thoroughly tested the mono white list, so it was mostly just playing for fun, and I won 9-4 against one of my playtest partners (who got 12th at the Waterbury).   The only games he won were games where had turn one Lotus or was able to get double Goyf and a few other threats before I could answer them.  

After playing a bunch more games, the only thing that I keep coming back to considering is maybe shaving off one Plains.   I sometimes get PLains flooded early, but what's weird is that I end up always using those Plains later in the game, often with Batterskull.  Elbus isn't as good as Batterskull becuase it can't be used with Stony Silence like Batterskull can be...

I had this thought before, but the 13th Plains could be another Ghost Quarter or a 4th SFM, but I'm not sure, and that makes Abolish alot less better post-board.  

The B/R deck .. needs work on the very thing that was mentioned in the article; opposing aggro decks. Playing against a gush gro deck a resolved Tarmogoyf usually was a death sentence unless I could get a creature out with mana to play a lightning bolt and pray they dont have a counter. The worst ... one game my opponent resolved Tinker to get Blightsteel and passed. I have a demonic consultation in hand and an untapped swamp, I play it on their endstep and start thinking about what I would name to deal with Blightsteel. I couldnt think of anything, I went and looked at the decklist, there was nothing I could name that would save me.

Yes, there are, however, 3 Diabolic Edicts placed in the sideboard.   They should probably be maindeck.   I would swap out the 3 Bolts for the 3 sideboard Edicts.  Then, I would replace the Edicts in the board with a 4th Edict, and two more removal spells.  With Edict, I'm not even sure you should keep bolt.  You already have REBs for Jaces.  That was a serious omission.  I'm not sure how that ended up like that.  I must have been focused too much on Shops at the time I was working on that list.  

How did you feel about the ratio of creatures in that list?  Did you feel like 4 Magus was one too many? It's obviously insane against Gush decks.  

[Valorale]

The mana was swingy for me on the white deck. On one game I would draw no plains, mulliganed and had Thalia, Leonin, SFM, Revoker, Mox Pearl and Swords. I kept the hand hoping to draw any land. Next turn I topped deck like a champ and easily won the game. Another game my board state was 3 Stony Silence, 2 Cages, 7 plains, 0 creatures, 2 creatures in my yard. It was like c'mon can I draw anything?? I managed to win that game because my opponent decked himself looking for an answer (he acknowledged misplays). I felt had he just started to fateseal me instead of brainstorming with Jace, he wouldve easily won.

The games I lost were usually a quick blowout ie: blightsteel and didnt have cage or an answer. I liked the white deck a LOT better against blue. 6 answers to a resolved Blightsteel plus 3 cages helped. Another thing against blue, if the game degenerates to each person topdecking, white's topdecks arent bad. Getting bears that passively disrupt on the board is huge

In regards to the B/R deck, Edict wouldve worked pretty well. I think I will try that change up for next week. The creature density was okay, multiple Magus isnt a bad thing unless youre flipping 2 over in a row with Bob at 7 life. They really do shut down your opponent and having them out in multiples isnt a bad thing. Two other problems I felt with the deck ...  The first was figuring out when I wanted to play control and when to be aggressive. In a particular game where I am on the draw, I had to decide hold back my fetch for REB or go in with a Thoughtseize or play cage. I decided to go for Thoughtseize, it got countered and I sat there helplessly looking at my hand with great stuff as my opponent casually resolved tinker into blightsteel that next turn. The second issue that stemmed from that was I often left like I couldnt cast my spells fast enough. Either hold back mana to defend or be aggressive and play stuff out. I rarely had Simian spirit guide and when I did I more often than not just wanted to hard cast him to have another beater.
 

[MaximumCDawg]

On the subject of black/red... I had success winning a small tournament with a B/R beats deck with a transformation sideboard.  I don't have the decklist anymore, but it started with Null Rod / Magus of the Moon and then jokeswapped into

TRANSFORM SLOTS (12)
<<Type A>>
4 Null Rod
2 Hypnotic Specter
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Blood Moon

<<Type B>>
3 Painter's Servant
1 Grindstone
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Awakening
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast

Permanent Fixtures (28):
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ingot Chewer
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Confidant
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Mana (20)
Who knows, probably some swamps and mountains and stuff.

Other board:
Pretty sure I had two Ingot Chewers here.

This deck played hilariously well, entirely due to surprise.  No one expected the Null Rod fueled aggro deck to swap into a combo finish.  I bring it up not because this deck is any good, but because aggro decks packing alot of hatebears against varied opponents, like White Trash, may well be able to benefit from transformative sideboards in general.  If not entirely transformative, then at least sideboards that switch the resource that the enemy cares about, like Minus Six, so they can't just double-down on Pyroclasm and Massacre. 

[StanleyAugust]

I've just bought the article, but haven't received a link for download?

[JACO]

I've just bought the article, but haven't received a link for download?

I don't see any purchase from the email address linked to your profile here on TMD. Please email  eternal.central AT gmail DOT com from the address that you sent the PayPal payment, and we can help you from there. Thanks!

[Smmenen]

I hope that in the near future I will be able to update this article and release the second edition (which will be free to everyone who bought the first).  I just wanted to thank everyone who got this article, and who has given me feedback.   Many of you have given me feedback via FB, twitter, etc. and I'm really really glad that so many of you enjoyed this.  

Just a few notes:

* somehow I forgot to build a GB deck, and that will be corrected in future editions.  

* The mono white list has been a fan favorite, and justifiably, it's really freaking good.   But the WG list is also really amazing.  The WGB might be better.  WB is also strong. 

* For some reason the mono green list ended up 62 cards.  That needs to be corrected.

* Further testing with the mono green list shows alot of obvious weaknesses, despite tremendous improvements over what has been tried before.  Beast Within technology is pretty amazing, although I use it on basic Island about 50% of the time.   Uktabi could arguably be a 4-of.  But most importantly, to be competitive, the deck almost certainly needs at least 2 MD Choke, and probably 3.   Crucible is obviously very good, and it can also be MD, but you NEED Choke.  

[MaximumCDawg]

I was tinkering around with WB versus W myself last night, and I settled on mono-W for tonight's tournament.  Fundamentally, I just did not think adding Dark Confidant and discard effects was worth it to screw up the mana base and render Arbiter questionable.  I think of it this way: in a deck with an explosive win condition (i.e. most of Vintage) a one-shot discard effect is very powerful because it can protect as well as disrupt.  Confidant, while an amazing CA engine, does take a few turns to pay for himself and show a benefit.  If each card your drawing might be an Ancestral Recall, then, yes, it's clearly worth it.  But in WB, I found I was too often playing one bear just so I could draw another bear next turn and lose some life. 

I found myself looking for something in mono-white to replace Confidant as a CA engine, and I found myself looking hard at the inverse Dark Confidant from Shadowmoor:

Augury Adept
1 w/u w/u
Creature — Kithkin Wizard (2/2)
Whenever Augury Adept deals combat damage to a player, reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You gain life equal to its converted mana cost.

The price is comparable to other Ophidans that have seen play, like Selkie, but gaining life is not as good as evasion.  The one thing Adept has going for it, though, is that it's perfectly castable in mono-white.  I couldn't find a way to justify playing it in the standard white trash list, because unless you have a way to protect her and get her to the opponent's dome reliably, and without hurting the rest of the deck, she's just not worth it.  I ran out of time to keep testing, but I was about to see whether adept would be worth it if you modified the damage core of the deck a bit.  I came up with two possibilities:

1. Stoneforge plus a toolbox of swords to enable protection from the appropriate color in a matchup.
2. Mother of Runes

In summary, while I'm still not sure running a bear just so you can draw more bears is good, I suspect the cost of going into black is more than the cost of running cards to support a different draw engine.

[BaronSengir]

I was tinkering around with WB versus W myself last night, and I settled on mono-W for tonight's tournament.  Fundamentally, I just did not think adding Dark Confidant and discard effects was worth it to screw up the mana base and render Arbiter questionable.  I think of it this way: in a deck with an explosive win condition (i.e. most of Vintage) a one-shot discard effect is very powerful because it can protect as well as disrupt.  Confidant, while an amazing CA engine, does take a few turns to pay for himself and show a benefit.  If each card your drawing might be an Ancestral Recall, then, yes, it's clearly worth it.  But in WB, I found I was too often playing one bear just so I could draw another bear next turn and lose some life. 

I found myself looking for something in mono-white to replace Confidant as a CA engine, and I found myself looking hard at the inverse Dark Confidant from Shadowmoor:

Augury Adept
1 w/u w/u
Creature — Kithkin Wizard (2/2)
Whenever Augury Adept deals combat damage to a player, reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You gain life equal to its converted mana cost.

The price is comparable to other Ophidans that have seen play, like Selkie, but gaining life is not as good as evasion.  The one thing Adept has going for it, though, is that it's perfectly castable in mono-white.  I couldn't find a way to justify playing it in the standard white trash list, because unless you have a way to protect her and get her to the opponent's dome reliably, and without hurting the rest of the deck, she's just not worth it.  I ran out of time to keep testing, but I was about to see whether adept would be worth it if you modified the damage core of the deck a bit.  I came up with two possibilities:

1. Stoneforge plus a toolbox of swords to enable protection from the appropriate color in a matchup.
2. Mother of Runes

In summary, while I'm still not sure running a bear just so you can draw more bears is good, I suspect the cost of going into black is more than the cost of running cards to support a different draw engine.

Could you let us know how you do and what decks you go up against? i'm very very curious.

[MaximumCDawg]

Sure, but remember I play in a very bizarre meta.  It's weekly unsanctioned vintage, usually gets 6 - 10 players each Thursday.  Only two of our regulars are fully powered.  On a good week, we see one powered blue deck, one powered shops deck, one dredge deck, one storm deck (belcher or elf style) and then a motley assortment of aggro or other homebrews.  So my build is geared towards beating unpowered aggro first and foremost, with Stony Silences in the board, for example.  Also, I'm not playing Adept... yet.

EDIT: Okay, I went 2-1 in a small six person event.  Here's the breakdown.

MATCH 1 - U/R Landstill - Loss, 0-2

Game 1 - I land an early Thalia and Misstep a Sol Ring, so stuff is off to a good start.  However, he then forces my Arbiter and lands a Library of Alexandria.  I can't find more bodies for three or four turns, meanwhile he's cranking out card advantage with the Library.  I resolve SoFI, but then he drops a Null Rod.  I finally manage to resolve a Revoker, but I have no idea what he's playing.  I have seen alot of red and blue, so I name Goblin Welder.  Next turn, down comes Jace.  Whoops. I deal with the first Jace by punching it alot, but a second  Jace is soon joined by a Mishra's Factory, and after Fire//Icing my Thalia, he beats me down to victory.

Game 2 - I decide to just keep an aggressive beatdown deck, but something possesses me to keep a very controlling first hand with Wastes, Abolish, and Mental Missteps.  Other than wasting a land, he avoids interaction early, and gets the board controlled with Factories and Standstill before I get going.  Totally punted; should have mulliganed into a more aggressive hand.  I made one bad decision late in the game, too, deciding to Abolish his Null Rod to try and get my Sword going, rather than using the Abolish on his Mishra's Factory.  I had two StP in hand that I thought would do the job, but he had two Missteps and a Mana Drain for my own Misstep.

MATCH 2 - Burn - Win, 2-0

Game 1 - The problem with burn decks is that, once they have to start diverting burn to your weenie hordes, they run out of gas easy.  That happens here.  Turns out also that Thalia is backbreaking, and the threat of equipping the SoFI you grabbed with your Stoneforge Mystic will stop him from using his last burn spell the whole game.

Game 2 - My sideboard has Leyline of Sanctity.  I mulligan into it and proceed to pick him apart at leisure.  He had sideboarded out his only answer - Chaos Warp - reasoning that it did very little against a white weenie deck, so this was just a massacre.

MATCH 3 - Aggro Shop - Win, 2-1

Game 1 - This is an inexperienced shop player who was borrowing the store owner's deck to play some Vintage.  He starts with a Chalice at 1, which I don't care about.  I to resolve Kataki on the play, which destroys his mana base.  He then resolves a Chalice at 2, which locks all my goodies in my hand, but his only mana sources are Ancient Tombs, so he starts to bleed pretty badly between Kataki and his lands.  Eventually, in a highly suspect move, he lets his Chalice die to Kataki in order to get out a Golem.  Relicwarder eats Golem and I win.

Game 2 - Again, his poor decision making is critical.  He leads with a Mishra's Workshop, despite only having-four drops and a Wasteland in hand.  I am therefore able to Waste his shop before he can do much.   Between Relicwarder and Abolish I keep him under control, but he keeps topdecking every massive beatstick in his deck.  Between the lifegain of Wurmcoil and the massive size of Myrball, I go under.

Game 3 - One more critical bad move, one more lost game.  He opens with Chalice on 2, first turn.  Ouch, but since i run Abolish, I have an out.  I play land, go.  He then tries to play Chalice at 1.  I'm not sure why, but it dies to his Chalice at 2. Nice. Timewalk. I think two turns later I find the Abolish, nuke the Chalice, and start dropping bears.  He doesn't find aggro in time and gets run over.  If he had kept the second Chalice in hand as backup, of course, the game would have been very different.

So, all in all, deck did fine.  Had I known what I was doing game 1, that was totally winnable.  The only big change I wanted was to be running Batterskull - I don't own one and the shop had none for sale.  So, instead, I was running SoFI and SoFF, under the theory that SOFI was good against Delver / etc and if I was behind (kills other creatures, draws cards) and SoFF was good against Goyf / etc and if I was ahead (makes opponent discard).

I also learned how utterly terrifying Chalice at 2 is for this deck.  Having four Abolish somewhere in the 75 seems like an absolute necessity, since it dodges Chalice at 2 and can still be cast immediately, even through a Sphere effect.  (Pay 1, chuck Plains, Abolish).  Even then, I was only ok because he screwed up with them.  Similarly, against the Landstill deck, I was very unhappy to see Spell Snares.  They stop everything in the deck.  I wonder if the mana costs of your threats can be diversified to avoid this problem.

[Smmenen]

Game 1 - I land an early Thalia and Misstep a Sol Ring, so stuff is off to a good start.  However, he then forces my Arbiter and lands a Library of Alexandria.  I can't find more bodies for three or four turns, meanwhile he's cranking out card advantage with the Library.  I resolve SoFI, but then he drops a Null Rod.  I finally manage to resolve a Revoker, but I have no idea what he's playing.  I have seen alot of red and blue, so I name Goblin Welder.  Next turn, down comes Jace.  Whoops. I deal with the first Jace by punching it alot, but a second  Jace is soon joined by a Mishra's Factory, and after Fire//Icing my Thalia, he beats me down to victory.

Goblin welder ?  

Come on now, he played Null Rod, why would you name Goblin Welder after he played Null Rod?  That makes almost no sense.   Jace is the obvious call at that point.  Had you named Jace you probably win that game.  

Also, your narrative illustrates a reason you need Batterskull: Batterskull still can be deployed even with Null Rod in play.  It's still a useful beater.