Free Podcast: So Many Insane Plays # 13 -- The Spring Vintage Metagame

[Smmenen]

http://www.mtgcast.com/?p=23970

Blurb:

Steve and Kevin review the post-Dark Ascension metagame and discuss the critical mass of card effects in Vintage.

Contact us at @ManyInsanePlays on Twitter or e-mail us at SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com

Your Host(s): Kevin Cron , Steve Menendian
Show’s Email: SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com
Show’s Twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/ManyInsanePlays

As always, let us know what you think!

[chrispikula]

I was pretty unhappy on Saturday when I had to drive to the Vintage tourney without a new podcast to listen to. 

[Onslaught]

I'm gonna head to the gym in a little bit, so I'm excited to listen to it then. I hope you guys will continue doing this podcast over Skype or something after you move to California.

[CHA1N5]

I was pretty unhappy on Saturday when I had to drive to the Vintage tourney without a new podcast to listen to. 

Sorry, Chris, but perhaps it was a good luck charm!

I hope you guys will continue doing this podcast over Skype or something after you move to California.

We will!

[Troy_Costisick]

To answer your question of the week, I think they should have done Time Vault.  What's sad is is the art they are giving away this year would have worked for it!

[Ufactor]

Has anyone tested Plaguebearer as a possible answer to 'goyf?

[Onslaught]

Regarding cards like STP, Sower, etc that rise in value in a Tarm heavy metagame, I think it's worth mentioning Ritual/Tendrils. Like, if your opponent is developing his board with a turn 2 Goyf or Stoneforge or something while you are sculpting a hand with Night's Whisper and stuff, you can just kill them three turns later by the time Goyf and Stoneforge become threatening to you.

For the theoretical "what printing would put the nail in Dredge?" question, I'd like to see more Bazaar friendly cards printed. I think the way you would see Dredge subside is if you had other more robust/resilient/slower/interesting options for graveyard or Bazaar based decks.

[Smmenen]

Keep the feedback coming.   I'm glad folks are enjoying our show.   

[voltron00x]

The key card in the board of the Dredge deck my team and I made is Ingot Chewer.  Allen Fulmer made top 4 with it Saturday, the deck is quite good, though it needs updates now that Shops seem to be king of the hill . Surprised you didn't mention it Chewer.

I think you overestimate Stoneforge a bit. Expect more Noble Fish if Goyf and Shops are popular.  Exalted wins Goyf wars and Noble Fish is very good against Shops. You also get Plow or Path for opposing Goyf decks.

[Ten-Ten]

Great show 

as for "what printing would put the nail in Dredge?" question, It would have to be:

  {W/G} {W/G}

creature- human Cleric

If ~ is in your opening hand you may reveal it. If you do, put it unto the battlefield.

Flash

Whenever ~ enters the battlefield name a card.
The named card's activated abilities cannot be played as long as ~ is on the battlefield.

0/7

 

On the vintage trophy art, topic.
I thinkn they should have done Gush, Tinker, or Mishra's Workshop for the painting.
I sure do hope next year's vintage champs trophy is any vintage playabe (other than P9) done by Mark Tedin or Terese Nielsen 
I would even settle for an alternate Flloded strand art or Guru Island  painting, geez.

[Womba]

With the "what printing would put the nail in Dredge?" I think Kevin mentioned it in the podcast that the format in a way is "pure," metagame driven. Vintage is at a point where the format is so big and wide open I don’t think any printing or even printings would actually put the nail in the coffin for Dredge because it would be able to adapt, just like any other deck in the format. That paired with the fact that people are ALWAYS going to take the Dredge challenge, not playing any SB hate hoping to dodge it.

[Shax]

Great podcast as usual! They give me a good overview of what is happening on Vintage, as usual. Still what happens going forward in Vintage and more specifically the Banned-Restricted list coming up will be a deciding factor.

[Smmenen]

Make sure to spread the word on the podcast.   Share with your friends on fb and twitter! 

[MaximumCDawg]

I don't think more pure yard hate will nail dredge, so I think Ten-Ten is on the right track.  I think it'd have to be something generally useful, like Grafdigger's cage, that truly and mightily just destroys Dredge all by itself.  Something like this:

Dredge Haterator
1G
2/1
Hexproof
If an opponent puts more than three cards into his or her graveyard during a single turn, you may put Dredge Haterator from your hand directly onto the battlefield.
Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield from a graveyard or library, return it to owner's hand.

It's like a grafdigger's cage that can't be removed by Dredge's 1cc tools.  Other effects you might want to use, like Innocent Blood, are easily countered by having more creatures in play. 

[Smmenen]

The parameters -- as I mentioned in the podcast - are far from easy.   

With Chain of Vapor, Nature's Claim, Wax/Wane, Simplify, Contagion, Mental Misstep, Firestorm, etc. etc Dredge has 0 or 1 mana answers for almost every conceivable piece of hate.

Then, it only needs a one or two turn window to take advantage of the fact that the hate isn't in play to do something about it. 

That's why I think Kevin is on the right track that whatever piece of hate that could be conceivably printed, it would basically have to be hexproof.  Although, even then, workarounds could be designed.  As was mentioned in the podcast, there are effects which require sacrifices, not just destruction. 

That's why I said I don't think it's really possible.  We already have plenty of Dredge hosers.  I don't see the value or even the need for more.

[withmangone]

Re: the dredge nail, i suppose the most unfair way to deal with dredge would be cheap emblems. Something like a 1-drop planeswalker that can tormod's and emblem LotV effect the turn it comes into play. It's ultimate could be something like, target dredge player without mental misstep in hand buys you a sandwich.

[MaximumCDawg]

What about a card enabling an archetype that is simply superior to Dredge?  

Super Ritual - B
Add BB to your mana pool.
Group Threshhold - Add BBBBB to your mana pool instead if there are at least seven cards in graveyards.

This may provide a massive bump to storm decks, who are already great against Dredge, and make em bona fide dredge killers.

Or something like this, again enabling a potentially new deck archetype that should be critically good against Dredge:

Super Tome - 1
Aether Effect: Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, if it is not the first creature to enter the battlefield that turn, you may draw a card.

Or, perhaps, something that exploits Dredge's lack of counter magic and dodges removal:

Super Crypt: 1
1, Return Super Crypt to your hand: Exile target graveyard.

[nataz]

with the rise of MM in both dredge and non-dredge decks, I really feel like ravenous trap is becoming a great anti-dredge card when combined with leyline. It gets by all of the cards that Steve mentioned, with the only answer (therp) confidently being hit by MM. Post board dredge has waaaay more answers to perms then cards in hand right now.

While a hex proof perm is an idea, I think a better design space to explore would be a 1cc split second effect.

[MaximumCDawg]

with the rise of MM in both dredge and non-dredge decks, I really feel like ravenous trap is becoming a great anti-dredge card when combined with leyline. It gets by all of the cards that Steve mentioned, with the only answer (therp) confidently being hit by MM. Post board dredge has waaaay more answers to perms then cards in hand right now.

While a hex proof perm is an idea, I think a better design space to explore would be a 1cc split second effect.

Ravenous Trap with "Buyback: Discard a card."

That'd do it.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Dredge killer: A 2cc planeswalker that leylines in, or has a pitch cost, and has an imidiate ultimate that gives you a leyline of the void emblem and crypts them in a non target fashion. Then some other abilities that are not awfull. One has to be something that kills hard casted dudes.
You could make a killer helm of obedience deck with this thing.

[voltron00x]

with the rise of MM in both dredge and non-dredge decks, I really feel like ravenous trap is becoming a great anti-dredge card when combined with leyline. It gets by all of the cards that Steve mentioned, with the only answer (therp) confidently being hit by MM. Post board dredge has waaaay more answers to perms then cards in hand right now.

While a hex proof perm is an idea, I think a better design space to explore would be a 1cc split second effect.

Ravenous Trap with "Buyback: Discard a card."

That'd do it.

Leyline of Sanctity beats this, for what its worth; Leyline of the Void reduces it to a regular Rav Trap. 

A Shroud or Hexproof creature that plays free seems unlikely to exist, at least to me.

I do think that Cage + Rav Trap in decks like Beats and Fish is one potent strategy that is underplayed, especially since those decks can get value from maindecking Cage.

[AmbivalentDuck]

With the "what printing would put the nail in Dredge?" I think Kevin mentioned it in the podcast that the format in a way is "pure," metagame driven. Vintage is at a point where the format is so big and wide open I don’t think any printing or even printings would actually put the nail in the coffin for Dredge because it would be able to adapt, just like any other deck in the format. That paired with the fact that people are ALWAYS going to take the Dredge challenge, not playing any SB hate hoping to dodge it.

While I know you're talking about realistic printings, there already exists a card in a non-tourney legal set that would do it:

Library of Congress, Basic Land
You may pay   rather than pay the mana cost for spells that you play.
You may play nine additional lands on each of your turns.
 : Choose up to nine cards you own from outside the game and put them into your hand.
 : End the turn.
 : Search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
 : Choose up to nine cards you own from outside the game and shuffle them into your library.
 : Draw a card.
 : Target creature gains haste until end of turn.
 : ~this~ deals one damage to target creature or player.
 : Untap target permanent.
 : Tap target permanent.
 : You gain 50 life.
 : Destroy target permanent.
 : Return target permanent to its owner's hand.
 : Return target card from your graveyard to your hand.
 : Add  to your mana pool.
 : Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

56 of these and 4x Shivan Gorge seems likely to dominate any format where this is legal.

[Troy_Costisick]

The parameters -- as I mentioned in the podcast - are far from easy.   

With Chain of Vapor, Nature's Claim, Wax/Wane, Simplify, Contagion, Mental Misstep, Firestorm, etc. etc Dredge has 0 or 1 mana answers for almost every conceivable piece of hate.

That's true.  So let's imagine a block someday where the theme is "Exile Zone Matters."  And let's say that tons of the cards in the set have a Leyline of the Void or Bojuka Bog effect in addition to whatever else they do at about the same frequency as Snow occured in Coldsnap.  Every non-basic land, hate bear, cantrip, and counterspell either Bogs or LotV's.  I think at that point a Fish or Shop deck could pack enough hate and preasure to beat Dredge out of the format.

That's why I think Kevin is on the right track that whatever piece of hate that could be conceivably printed, it would basically have to be hexproof.  Although, even then, workarounds could be designed.  As was mentioned in the podcast, there are effects which require sacrifices, not just destruction. 

That's why I said I don't think it's really possible.  We already have plenty of Dredge hosers.  I don't see the value or even the need for more.

I agree.  I don't see the need for anymore either.  I don't see how GY hate could get any more efficient than Trap, Crypt, Bog, and Cage anyway.

Peace,

-Troy

[Onslaught]

I really want to play and like Agent of Bolas, but I feel like in my testing so far that most of the time I just wish he was Jace instead. Someone make a hard pitch to me, because I want a reason to pick up a foil one...

[TheWhiteDragon]

Keep the feedback coming.   I'm glad folks are enjoying our show.   

The show is awesome smemmy...I also thought you guys were great in the Ambiguously Gay Duo show

[BaronSengir]

Good podcast guys.

To answer the dredge question I agree with Stephen that it would probably have to be hexproof to be of any value. Like a Leyline of the Void or Yixlid that is hexproof. Dredge is plenty stoppable now, you just have to be prepared for it and know what you need opening hand to deal with it or hope you don't face it, which is never the case with me. Last Xtreme Games there were two Dredgers and I played both round one and two...

To answer the trophy art question I was really hoping for Time Vault; its a card from the original sets and by many is argued to be the 10th piece of power. Other options I'd like to have seen would have been Yawgmoth's Will, Demonic Tutor, Mishra's Workshop, maybe a new Library of Alexandria or the duals, but starting over with the Power Nine? Idk that just seems like a waste to me.

[chrispikula]

I think the worse card for dredge would just be a nonbasic land that tapped for blue but you could sacrifice for a Tormod's Crypt effect.  You could call it Graverobber's Study or somesuch. 

I hate to say it, but I was disappointed with this podcast. I've really enjoyed the previous ones, but I thought this one you guys just seemed underprepared. 

[Smmenen]

which is ironic because every question was scripted in advance.  This was a shorter podcast than usual, so that may have contributed to that impression. 

Re: Vintage Champs Art: To me, the disappointment isn't that they are repeating the cycle of P9 art so much as it is the fact that they are offering TIMEWISTER art.

Timetwister isn't even played in Vintage much at all.   It seems strange, to say the least, to be offering art on a card that sees almost no play in the format.  Might as well have art for Juzam Djinn.   Hell, I'd rather have that. 

[CHA1N5]

I think the worse card for dredge would just be a nonbasic land that tapped for blue but you could sacrifice for a Tormod's Crypt effect.  You could call it Graverobber's Study or somesuch. 

I was thinking of addressing this point, but forgot to during the recording.  I agree that it's more likely that incremental effects will be the thing that pushes Dredge away, if such a thing were to happen.

I hate to say it, but I was disappointed with this podcast. I've really enjoyed the previous ones, but I thought this one you guys just seemed underprepared. 

As Steve said: ironic.  We actually prepped more for this than many other episodes.  Steve did have one or two quantitative questions that I hadn't prepped an answer for, but otherwise we actually had drafted more material than we used.  I'll chalk your impressions up to our effortless, off-the-cuff chemistry


Our next episode will doubtless address the pending B/R list update.  I honestly hope they give us something to talk about!

[Shax]

Good podcast by great players. Good game.

Nah, just kidding.. or am I? The Vintage metagame report was spot on. I enjoy these podcast Steve and they are the only way for me to get some reliable voice input on Vintage around here. So keep them up and have a good time in Cali!!! Surf some bro!!