Temporal Mastery

[AmbivalentDuck]

If you wanted to make some kind of crazy sex.dec (the old u/g walk recycle aggro deck) with snapcaster, noxious revival, pull from eternity, miracle time walk etc and just beat them to death with 2/Xs... you probably COULD...but the question remains as to "why would you?"

If you were looking to abuse this, your best bet outside of "just run 4 in a delver deck" would be with something that would trade its draw step for additional tempo. Delver's the easy choice, but something like a turboland/jace deck in legacy seems like it would also benefit, or a similarly styled "critical mass" deck that wins when its boardstate is hyper advanced but is attackable in its "setting up" stage.

Whereas Vault-Key fits into a combo-control shell, this would go in a tempo-based, "fish"-style aggro-control shell.  Don't get me wrong, I don't see this breaking Vintage in half by itself.  I do think an Ancestral Recall miracle would succeed there, however.

My suspicion is that this was printed so that they could ban Brainstorm and Top in Legacy.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Vintage doesn't care much about it. Why spend all that time manipulating your library to maybe get another time walk when you already have access to the REAL walk and vault/key. It's fine with jace, but if you resolve a jace and he lives to your untap step do you really need these to be in a good position? If you wanted to make some kind of crazy sex.dec (the old u/g walk recycle aggro deck) with snapcaster, noxious revival, pull from eternity, miracle time walk etc and just beat them to death with 2/Xs... you probably COULD...but the question remains as to "why would you?"

This - is what I meant when i said there is a better 2 card combo.  I didn't mean vault/key was better than mirror/walk (which it obviously is).  I meant vault/key is better than anything you can do with a playset of these.  In most decks that find this with manipulation, you're basically cycling - maybe getting an extra land drop in.  In a deck that can abuse the attack phase however, this has worth (read GUW/BUG fish).  In most all cases, you're better off just running vault/key and leaving deck space to play better cards than this thing.  If you are not already running fish, I don't see this as playable, though I may be wrong.  I do see this giving a boost to fish though.

[MaximumCDawg]

Yes, this is playable in Legacy.  With Brainstorm and Top, you can set up a Time Walk fairly regularly.  I am, however, very skeptical about this getting Brainstorm banned.  I see this card being played in Legacy decks that can afford to easily turn it on not as a huge bombo thing, but as a card that functions as Exploration in the early game, and Aggravated Assault in the late game.  In other words, people pointing to Delver RUG are spot-on.  The critical difference between this and Time Walk is:

(1) You need to do some work to set this card up.  This is less of a problem than it seems, since the set up (library manipulation) is useful in its own right.  However, you WILL have situations where this is a dead card clogging up your hand.  That's something that NEVER happens with Time Walk (manascrew barred).

(2) This card operates from the top of your deck, not from your hand.  In other words, this card does NOT dig you deeper into your deck.  It's Exploration, except it also untaps your lands and gives you another attack phase.  That's good.  No doubt.  But it's not absurd.

Vintage doesn't care much about it. Why spend all that time manipulating your library to maybe get another time walk when you already have access to the REAL walk and vault/key. It's fine with jace, but if you resolve a jace and he lives to your untap step do you really need these to be in a good position? If you wanted to make some kind of crazy sex.dec (the old u/g walk recycle aggro deck) with snapcaster, noxious revival, pull from eternity, miracle time walk etc and just beat them to death with 2/Xs... you probably COULD...but the question remains as to "why would you?"

This - is what I meant when i said there is a better 2 card combo.  I didn't mean vault/key was better than mirror/walk (which it obviously is).  I meant vault/key is better than anything you can do with a playset of these.  In most decks that find this with manipulation, you're basically cycling - maybe getting an extra land drop in.  In a deck that can abuse the attack phase however, this has worth (read GUW/BUG fish).  In most all cases, you're better off just running vault/key and leaving deck space to play better cards than this thing.  If you are not already running fish, I don't see this as playable, though I may be wrong.  I do see this giving a boost to fish though.

I don't see this card as a 4-of in Vintage for basically this reason, plus one more element.  The best unrestricted ways to abuse this guy in Vintage are probably topdeck tutors, Top, Jace, and Sylvan Library (unless Ancestral Knowledge takes off, whoooo).  Just like in Legacy, this doesn't draw you deeper into your deck on command like Time Walk does (burn a card in hand to topdeck Mastery, cast Mastery from topdeck, only draw one card you would have drawn that turn anyway).  Just like in Legacy, this works with a deck that wants an early game Exploration and late game Aggravated Assault.  

I'm skeptical of running this with Top.  If you're relying on artifacts with activated abilities, then just run Key->Vault.  The only reason NOT to run Key->Vault in a blue deck (that I can tell) is that you don't want your deck to be reliant on artifacts, either because you're dodging hate or you're using anti-artifact hate yourself.  Null Rod, etc.  

But, would I run 1 or 2 of this in an aggro-control deck that had 2-4 Jace, a few topdeck tutors, or a Sylvan Library?  Absolutely I would.  If you get it early, it pitches to Force or accelerates you into your four-drops (Jace).  If you get it late, your Goyfs or Predators swing twice in a row, probably for GG.  What you do NOT want is just to randomly draw this and force you to make awkward decisions at times you do not want to.  That's why I see it as a 1 or 2 of to tutor or dig for in a pinch.

[boggyb]

I quite agree with all this reasoned argument. However, the bare fact is, when it works, it's the same price as Time Walk and its effect gets you the exact same result, minus one card. Time walk is one of the top 5 least-unrestrictable cards for sure, and the best tempo card in the game. The sheer power of it means that if someone can find a way to mitigate its downsides consistently, it will become a formidable player.

[TheWhiteDragon]

But, would I run 1 or 2 of this in an aggro-control deck that had 2-4 Jace, a few topdeck tutors, or a Sylvan Library?  Absolutely I would.  If you get it early, it pitches to Force or accelerates you into your four-drops (Jace).  If you get it late, your Goyfs or Predators swing twice in a row, probably for GG.  What you do NOT want is just to randomly draw this and force you to make awkward decisions at times you do not want to.  That's why I see it as a 1 or 2 of to tutor or dig for in a pinch.

I actually disagree with this, though I overall think this card isn't uber-broken or better than vault/key.  I think if you DID decide to run it, you want 4.  You will never be faced with an awkward decision, because this card at the very least lets you timewalk - even if you do nothing else that turn.  If you topdeck it and can abuse it, great.  If you topdeck it and don't need it, meh, but no loss.  When drawn, this card is FoW food and can be put back via brainstorm, jace, etc, though that's not ideal.  The reasons I see this not being playable at all outside of fish is because other blue decks run massive card draw or cards like confidant...and this card is awful with Bob and a blank if drawn as your extra draws in a turn.  You don't want to gush into this thing or flip it with bob.  In the right deck, I see this as a 4-of (fish with sylvan perhaps).  in the non-aggro blue deck, I see this as a 0-of.

[Bill Copes]

Obviously you don't want to flip it with Bob, but don't you want to take as many turns in a row as possible with Bob on the table?

[MaximumCDawg]

And since Bob doesn't actually draw the card, you can happily stack your library with: "Land, Mastery" off top for good times.

[TheWhiteDragon]

And since Bob doesn't actually draw the card, you can happily stack your library with: "Land, Mastery" off top for good times.

If you have top and bob, you're way ahead as is.  Extra turns with bob isn't bad, but if you have top and bob, you obviously have vamp and DT in the deck...and vault/key would be just as easy to assemble and be worlds better than 4 of these floating in a deck when you DON'T have top out.  It's not that this card is bad, it's that it is worse than vault/key.  Time walks are great in an aggro deck, they are just good in a non-aggro deck.  Conditional walks are good in an aggro deck, and average at best in a non-aggro deck.  I may be wrong, but I just don't see this flying outside of aggro decks in vintage.  The least aggro i can see getting away with this card is a trygon/tarmgoyf deck with 4 preordain, ponder, brainstorm, and 2-3 jace.  That kind of deck also tends to run gushbond too, though, so I don't know about that either.  Maybe if the deck ran these INSTEAD of gushes and added in sylvan library or something else as well...THEN, maybe.  Something like Grow-a-tog wouldn't be terrible with these, since the deck is mostly about deck-stacking cantrips.  In that case, the walks would be extra dryad swings with +1/+1 each swing.  That's not bad.

[BC]

I snap bought 4 Personal Tutor from SCG at $24 apiece.  Not sure where (if anywhere) PT will fit into a deck, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

[Oath of Happy]

Mystical/Vamp for this card is a bad play. You lose a card to gain an extra untap and attack phase?  Time Walk doesn't really do anything terribly broken.  It's a great card with literally no downside, but without brainstorms your not going risk having dead cards in your hand just so you can sometimes play extra time walks.  Your better off just tuttoring up the real Time Walk anyway so that you can recast it off Snapcast/Yawgwill.  The only way I can think of breaking this card is with Bob and Top but even that is kind of slow and if you don't get the top you're going to lose a lot of games due to Bob eating you alive.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I enjoy all the people downplaying the brokenness of Time Walk.

[DubDub]

I snap bought 4 Personal Tutor from SCG at $24 apiece.  Not sure where (if anywhere) PT will fit into a deck, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Cede tempo now, get it back later?  Seems like a so-so idea.  Surgical Extraction and friends could really ruin your day.  I would say that this card is better with Jace than Brainstorm (speaking about Legacy), but every Jace deck is also a Brainstorm deck, so that point is moot.

[MaximumCDawg]

I enjoy all the people downplaying the brokenness of Time Walk.

Time Walk + work - card advantage.

No one here is saying this card is bad (it's not) but we're wondering where it finds a home given the peculiar way it needs to play off the top.

@BC - If you're investing in Personal Tutor, sell em FAST.  If it really does work in legacy, Wizards will ban it just like they did with Mystical Tutor.

[BC]

@BC - If you're investing in Personal Tutor, sell em FAST.  If it really does work in legacy, Wizards will ban it just like they did with Mystical Tutor.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm doing.  I have no intention of playing Personal Tutor. 

I did the same thing with Warrior's Oath when Sundial was spoiled.  I bought 4 English ones at $10 each, then sold them a couple weeks later for $25 each.  Unfortunately, now they're like a bajillion dollars apiece.  Jumped the gun on that one.

[Wagner]

I enjoy all the people downplaying the brokenness of Time Walk.

Time Walk + work - card advantage.

How is this card not on the same card advantage level as Time Walk? It's exactly the same effect, but it gets exiled.

[MaximumCDawg]

I enjoy all the people downplaying the brokenness of Time Walk.

Time Walk + work - card advantage.

How is this card not on the same card advantage level as Time Walk? It's exactly the same effect, but it gets exiled.

Because - like we've said 8 times in this thread - it functions from the top of your deck instead of your hand.  If you have Time Walk in hand, then the turn you use it, you cast a card in your hand (-1 CA), and you get to draw a card during your extra turn you wouldn't have drawn otherwise (+1 CA).

With Temporal Mastery, you cast a card in your hand to topdeck it (-1 CA if it is a Noxious Revival or Topdeck tutor, 0 CA if it's Brainstorm).  Then you draw it instead of the card you would have drawn for the turn (-1 CA).  Finally, when you take your new turn, you draw the card you buried under Mastery (+1 CA).

From this standpoint, Time Walk always digs you down +1 card from baseline, whereas Temporal Mastery never does, and depending on how you got it to your library, you're down a card out of the transaction. 

Of course, this only applies to intentionally topdecking it.  If you lucksack into it on the top at the right time, then yes, it does have the same net CA effect as Time Walk.  But I don't think it's wise to put these in your deck hoping for random extra turns.  Maybe I'll be proven wrong.

[The Atog Lord]

CDog,

Using a Mystical Tutor to find Time Walk is just the same in terms of card advantage as using it to find Miracle Timewalk. Noxious Revival doesn't work with Miracle Timewalk if it resolved on the first attempt, because it exiles itself.

Using Brainstorm, Jace, Mystical Tutor, Scroll Rack, Preordain, or any other mechanism to stack the top of the deck is just the same for Time Walk and for Miracle Timewalk. The only differences are that Real Time Walk doesn't exile itself on resolution so it can be used again via Yawgmoth's Will; and a drawn Time Walk in the opening hand is much better than a Miracle in the opening hand. But in terms of card advantage, outside of graveyard recursion, the two cards are exactly the same.

[MaximumCDawg]

CDog,

Using a Mystical Tutor to find Time Walk is just the same in terms of card advantage as using it to find Miracle Timewalk. Noxious Revival doesn't work with Miracle Timewalk if it resolved on the first attempt, because it exiles itself.

Yes, but if you're using it in Oath or Dragon deck, for example, you're very likely to find a copy in the yard to Revive. 

Using Brainstorm, Jace, Mystical Tutor, Scroll Rack, Preordain, or any other mechanism to stack the top of the deck is just the same for Time Walk and for Miracle Timewalk. The only differences are that Real Time Walk doesn't exile itself on resolution so it can be used again via Yawgmoth's Will; and a drawn Time Walk in the opening hand is much better than a Miracle in the opening hand. But in terms of card advantage, outside of graveyard recursion, the two cards are exactly the same.

It's only the same if you cast it exactly the same way.  If your game plan is to cast Time Walk immediately upon ripping it, then yes, the two cards are as similar as you suggest.  If, however, you want to Time Walk at the most opportune time, then during the actual turn you use it, Temporary Mastery is less CA because you need to burn a card getting it on top of your library and you miss out on one of your new draws.

For example, compare starting hands with Time Walk and with Mystical Tutor.  (Starting hand with Mastery is awful).  If you Walk on turn 3 using Time Walk, you see one more net card than if you used Mystical to replace one of your draws with Mastery. 

[boggyb]

Quick question-- you CAN miracle this on your opponent's turn, yes? If so, that is some nutty tempotastic synergy with SDT. Makes every end step top activation with 2 mana up into a potential, 'oh whoops, I take an extra turn now! tx bro.'

[Wagner]

CDog,

Using a Mystical Tutor to find Time Walk is just the same in terms of card advantage as using it to find Miracle Timewalk. Noxious Revival doesn't work with Miracle Timewalk if it resolved on the first attempt, because it exiles itself.

Yes, but if you're using it in Oath or Dragon deck, for example, you're very likely to find a copy in the yard to Revive.  

Using Brainstorm, Jace, Mystical Tutor, Scroll Rack, Preordain, or any other mechanism to stack the top of the deck is just the same for Time Walk and for Miracle Timewalk. The only differences are that Real Time Walk doesn't exile itself on resolution so it can be used again via Yawgmoth's Will; and a drawn Time Walk in the opening hand is much better than a Miracle in the opening hand. But in terms of card advantage, outside of graveyard recursion, the two cards are exactly the same.

It's only the same if you cast it exactly the same way.  If your game plan is to cast Time Walk immediately upon ripping it, then yes, the two cards are as similar as you suggest.  If, however, you want to Time Walk at the most opportune time, then during the actual turn you use it, Temporary Mastery is less CA because you need to burn a card getting it on top of your library and you miss out on one of your new draws.

For example, compare starting hands with Time Walk and with Mystical Tutor.  (Starting hand with Mastery is awful).  If you Walk on turn 3 using Time Walk, you see one more net card than if you used Mystical to replace one of your draws with Mastery.  

Yeah, it's not as good as Time Walk... We got that. It does require more work, you also pointed that out. But it's not, by itself, negative card advantage. You can put in back with Top or BS or other which are not card disadvantage, it's just all, more work.

And yes, you CAN miracle on the opponent's turn as currently worded. This card being sorcery doesn't really work unless you have shenanigans, but the 5 point burn and white removal sure do.

[MaximumCDawg]

Quick question-- you CAN miracle this on your opponent's turn, yes? If so, that is some nutty tempotastic synergy with SDT. Makes every end step top activation with 2 mana up into a potential, 'oh whoops, I take an extra turn now! tx bro.'

This is the most devastating observation in this entire thread.  A deck with an active top is threatening a 3-mana Time Walk (not two, because you need one mana to spin the top and stack it so you know you want to tap to draw) every end step.  Even with the CA issues, that's absolutely brutal.  Wow.

@Wagner - Yes, it is both more work and negative card advantage.  Exactly the same way Vampiric Tutor is negative card advantage while Demonic is not.  Also, though I can't put my finger on the rulings right now, the way the card reads you certainly can play it during your opponent's turn.  It says you can play it "when" you draw it.  You couldn't normally play a Sorcery during your draw step, either.

[brokenbacon]

Quick question-- you CAN miracle this on your opponent's turn, yes? If so, that is some nutty tempotastic synergy with SDT. Makes every end step top activation with 2 mana up into a potential, 'oh whoops, I take an extra turn now! tx bro.'

This is the most devastating observation in this entire thread.  A deck with an active top is threatening a 3-mana Time Walk (not two, because you need one mana to spin the top and stack it so you know you want to tap to draw) every end step.  Even with the CA issues, that's absolutely brutal.  Wow.

A very, very good point.

[bactgudz]

CDog,

Using a Mystical Tutor to find Time Walk is just the same in terms of card advantage as using it to find Miracle Timewalk. Noxious Revival doesn't work with Miracle Timewalk if it resolved on the first attempt, because it exiles itself.

Yes, but if you're using it in Oath or Dragon deck, for example, you're very likely to find a copy in the yard to Revive.  

Using Brainstorm, Jace, Mystical Tutor, Scroll Rack, Preordain, or any other mechanism to stack the top of the deck is just the same for Time Walk and for Miracle Timewalk. The only differences are that Real Time Walk doesn't exile itself on resolution so it can be used again via Yawgmoth's Will; and a drawn Time Walk in the opening hand is much better than a Miracle in the opening hand. But in terms of card advantage, outside of graveyard recursion, the two cards are exactly the same.

It's only the same if you cast it exactly the same way.  If your game plan is to cast Time Walk immediately upon ripping it, then yes, the two cards are as similar as you suggest.  If, however, you want to Time Walk at the most opportune time, then during the actual turn you use it, Temporary Mastery is less CA because you need to burn a card getting it on top of your library and you miss out on one of your new draws.

For example, compare starting hands with Time Walk and with Mystical Tutor.  (Starting hand with Mastery is awful).  If you Walk on turn 3 using Time Walk, you see one more net card than if you used Mystical to replace one of your draws with Mastery.  

Yeah, it's not as good as Time Walk... We got that. It does require more work, you also pointed that out. But it's not, by itself, negative card advantage. You can put in back with Top or BS or other which are not card disadvantage, it's just all, more work.

And yes, you CAN miracle on the opponent's turn as currently worded. This card being sorcery doesn't really work unless you have shenanigans, but the 5 point burn and white removal sure do.

In Maro's article he stated being a sorcery doesn't matter.  There is a triggered part of the miracle ability that gives you the ability to cast it for it's miracle cost during the resolution of that ability, thus timing restrictions are ignored.  Miracle likely functions very similarly to madness...the only interesting part will be if the static ability associated with it causes the card to be exiled (like with madness) or simply revealed.  If the former, you can do some funky shennanigans with miracle and looting effects.

[evouga]

This is the most devastating observation in this entire thread.  A deck with an active top is threatening a 3-mana Time Walk (not two, because you need one mana to spin the top and stack it so you know you want to tap to draw) every end step.  Even with the CA issues, that's absolutely brutal.  Wow.

I pointed this out on page 1 :-/

I'm skeptical of running this with Top.  If you're relying on artifacts with activated abilities, then just run Key->Vault.  The only reason NOT to run Key->Vault in a blue deck (that I can tell) is that you don't want your deck to be reliant on artifacts, either because you're dodging hate or you're using anti-artifact hate yourself.  Null Rod, etc.  

You run both. Top is underrated in Vintage IMO; I play an Oath deck with a pair of Tops and my respect for the card continues to grow. With enough fetches every draw step becomes a Ponder, with all kinds of minor synergies (with Key, Repeal, Tinker, etc) as a bonus.

[MaximumCDawg]

This is the most devastating observation in this entire thread.  A deck with an active top is threatening a 3-mana Time Walk (not two, because you need one mana to spin the top and stack it so you know you want to tap to draw) every end step.  Even with the CA issues, that's absolutely brutal.  Wow.

I pointed this out on page 1 :-/

I'm skeptical of running this with Top.  If you're relying on artifacts with activated abilities, then just run Key->Vault.  The only reason NOT to run Key->Vault in a blue deck (that I can tell) is that you don't want your deck to be reliant on artifacts, either because you're dodging hate or you're using anti-artifact hate yourself.  Null Rod, etc.  

You run both. Top is underrated in Vintage IMO; I play an Oath deck with a pair of Tops and my respect for the card continues to grow. With enough fetches every draw step becomes a Ponder, with all kinds of minor synergies (with Key, Repeal, Tinker, etc) as a bonus.

Then you won the thread awhile ago.  I just didnt notice at the time. Noticing that you're doing this with spare mana left over during your enemy's end step makes running this in addition to Vault->Key entirely reasonable for a controlish blue deck.

[Wagner]

Wow, yeah, I missed that too.

That ruins ALL the flavor though, it's hardly a miracle if it works when you could naturally not draw cards. More powerful yes, but disappointing on the flavor level.

[policehq]

Do we finally get to break Ancestral Knowledge now?  Stack your library to take two - three turns in a row...?

Good call.  Troll and Toad just sold me 40 of those at 49 cents a pop.  I'm happy to bet $20 on that combo being really frickin' dumb in Legacy.  This card may not even be the dumbest "miracle."

I think the naysayers are forgetting how good extra land drops and combat phases are.

Sounds good with Sword of Feast and Famine, too (after paying upkeep and miracle costs).

[gkraigher]

either temporal mastery or brainstorm/ponder/and jace all get banned from legacy.  I'm pretty sure this card gets the cut.  I just hope its not around to ruin grand prix atlanta. 

[vaughnbros]

either temporal mastery or brainstorm/ponder/and jace all get banned from legacy.  I'm pretty sure this card gets the cut.  I just hope its not around to ruin grand prix atlanta. 

possibly brainstorm.  if brainstorm is banned i couldn't see them banning jace too.  ponder doesn't actually put a card on the top making it significantly worse for creating miracles.

[Diakonov]

@Wagner - Yes, it is both more work and negative card advantage.  Exactly the same way Vampiric Tutor is negative card advantage while Demonic is not.

This is misleading.  It simply is not less card advantage than Time Walk.  If by "more work" you mean Demonic Tutor won't cut it, then that's true.  On the other hand, though, this downside is somewhat canceled out by the fact that it can be played as an instant whereas Time Walk cannot.  As far as CA though, they are EXACTLY the same.  It is no different than Vamping for a Time Walk.